Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kuroimaken 02-20-08, 11:31 PM	Hello everyone. The other day I was playing with my other group and I realized just how useful Antimagic Field can be if you don't depend on anything supernatural. We were fighting this dragon who had AMF on and would cast spells (origin point outside of it, so it's not affected) and breath weapon us to smithereens. So I figured, "Damn, there's gotta be a way of getting that AMF out of the way." After much research, it appears the answers is... There isn't. No counterspells (since the effect isn't aimed at you), no dispel magic, no Disjunction (okay, to be fair, Disjunction has a 1% chance of undoing it). You can only block it by means of a prismatic effect or wall of force, but you're not going to do much to anyone outside your shiny wall, at least by means of magic (or anything else, in the case of wall of force). Okay, depending on how much your DM likes it, there is one way, but it takes XP: Limited Wish or Wish can kick AMF in the nuts. Still, it can be a real pain in the kidney if you don't have access to 7th level spells. It boggles me to no end to think that a 6th-level spell can beat a 9th-level one (or, rather, every other spell level (other than conjuration spells that originate outside it), with very few specific spells being able to effectively counter it). It boggles me EVEN FURTHER that a 9th level spell that can destroy ARTIFACTS only has 1% chance of even affecting AMF. So... any thoughts on how to effectively kick AMF in the groin? RAW is encouraged but not absolutely necessary, as is official material. I was thinking of researching a specific spell that'd ONLY counter AMF. something like Anti-Antimagic Field. It'd have no other effects other than negating AMF (and, maybe, dispel, or ongoing dispelling effects such as Wall of Dispel or whatever it's called). Any idea how to go about that one? Thanks in advance for your replies.
AzraelNoir 02-21-08, 01:02 AM	Invoke Magic in Lords of Madness. It only allows you to cast a spell of 4th or lower but at least its something. Also try orb of force, as long as it is cast outside the field.
Saiyamantis 02-21-08, 01:05 AM	AMF suppresses any magical effect used in its area. Regardless of where the effect of a spell is targeted, the spell itself is originating from the caster, meaning that it's being used inside the AMF won't have any effect until the spell ends. The dragon's breath weapon would be suppressed within the AMF for the same reason. AMF seemed broken to you was because your DM wasn't following the rules. In a typical game, casting AMF is basically an open invitation for everyone to bombard you with rocks/arrows/orb spells.
Kuroimaken 02-21-08, 01:16 AM	AMF suppresses any magical effect used in its area. Regardless of where the effect of a spell is targeted, the spell itself is originating from the caster, meaning that it's being used inside the AMF won't have any effect until the spell ends. The dragon's breath weapon would be suppressed within the AMF for the same reason. AMF seemed broken to you was because your DM wasn't following the rules. In a typical game, casting AMF is basically an open invitation for everyone to bombard you with rocks/arrows/orb spells. Wouldn't be the first time he'd done that. :bored: Unfortunately, the dragon's breath weapon was apparently extraordinary (we tried to protect against it with dispels and the like, our DM said "extraordinary, sorry"). Unfortunately, I'm forced to disagree about the originating bit. If it doesn't travel from you to the target, if you don't have to maintain concentration (and thus a link), then the spell effectively works the same way as a conjuration spell cast outside the field and flung into it (note how the description doesn't actually say anything about the caster's spells not being possible to be cast, only that they effectively disappear if brought into the field. Which prompts a question: AMF has a 10 ft. radius. What happens if you then activate a supernatural ability/spell that goes beyond that range, like an emanation? The description seems to hint at the idea that the effect is supressed within AMF's area, but it'd work beyond that).
Omen_of_Peace 02-21-08, 06:41 AM	Protect against a breath weapon (which is always (Su) when your DM is not screwing with you) with dispels ?! Your group has some strange rules. Dispels only work against spells and (Sp) abilities, not (Su) abilities ; counterspells only work against spells.
Kuroimaken 02-21-08, 07:20 AM	Protect against a breath weapon (which is always (Su) when your DM is not screwing with you) with dispels ?! Your group has some strange rules. Dispels only work against spells and (Sp) abilities, not (Su) abilities ; counterspells only work against spells. What I mean is that we used Antimagic Field to try and counter it too. But the answer is that it got through as well because it was (Ex) rather than (Su).
Tordak 02-21-08, 08:25 AM	Well you're DM's wrong (unless our friends at WOTC have changed it in the new 'oh all mighty Rule Compendium'); Dragon Breath is a supernatural ability, and is stopped by AMF. Also, even if you don't maintain concentration or whatever, if a spell is not an instant conjuration (even if with some instant conjuration I disagree) it is affected by AMF. Altough now officially AMF does not block line of site (AMF as gotten really crappy if you ask me). Even instant conjuration will not work if they originate from within the AMF. You can cast from inside, the effect is entierly supressed if it is instantaneous; if not instantaneous, it will work if you somehow move out of the area of AMF.
Old_Troll 02-21-08, 11:42 AM	I reiterate what has already been said, but pared down to: A spell caster within an AMF can not cast ANY spells. Period. No exceptions. Spells never come to effect. Your DM needs to follow the rules, but you'll need to become more clever and use other, possibly, environmental resources.
Blarghy 02-22-08, 03:16 AM	So... any thoughts on how to effectively kick AMF in the groin? RAW is encouraged but not absolutely necessary, as is official material. Well, aside from the wrong way your DM was using AMF, the Iron Heart Surge maneuver from ToB kicks AMF in the nuts pretty hard. Just have your initiator walk into the AMF and active the Surge and the AMF is no more.
Kuroimaken 02-22-08, 04:02 PM	Well, aside from the wrong way your DM was using AMF, the Iron Heart Surge maneuver from ToB kicks AMF in the nuts pretty hard. Just have your initiator walk into the AMF and active the Surge and the AMF is no more. *sigh* Yeah, Tome of Battle. Since we don't ever, ever use it, it's not particularly handy here.
mvincent 02-22-08, 04:12 PM	For rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#breathWeapon) reference (if desired): "Breath weapons are supernatural abilities except where noted." and under the dragon description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm): "Breath Weapon (Su)"
Kuroimaken 02-22-08, 04:17 PM	For rules reference (if desired): "Breath weapons are supernatural abilities except where noted." and under the dragon description: "Breath Weapon (Su)" Well, not much of a point in arguing that one now. But I'll remember it next time our DM gives us AMF bullcrap.
Roelandt 02-22-08, 08:57 PM	I don't know if you have the book but Rules Compendium describes in detail how the AMF works and doesn't work. It puts to sleep most debates and misunderstandings.
mvincent 02-22-08, 09:28 PM	I don't know if you have the book but Rules Compendium describes in detail how the AMF works and doesn't work.That section can be downloaded for free here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20071009a). It puts to sleep most debates and misunderstandings.I disagree :)
AzraelNoir 02-23-08, 02:05 AM	Ummm, The Iron Heart Surge trick wouldn't work. Since you have to be in an AMF to use it to destroy it, you cant activate Iron Heart Surge because its a supernatural/spell like ability and they cant be used in an AMF.
Blarghy 02-23-08, 03:19 AM	Ummm, The Iron Heart Surge trick wouldn't work. Since you have to be in an AMF to use it to destroy it, you cant activate Iron Heart Surge because its a supernatural/spell like ability and they cant be used in an AMF. Iron Heart Surge is an extraordinary ability -- it does indeed work.
AzraelNoir 02-23-08, 06:52 PM	Oh, I thought it was the other way around; unless it said otherwise it was a supernatural ability. Oh well.
Shadezeta 02-24-08, 08:00 PM	You can always use alchemical items since they will still work in an antimagic field.
Gloomweave 02-25-08, 04:41 PM	Orbs will work as long as cast from outside AMF? News to me. Good news if true.
Kuroimaken 02-26-08, 02:43 PM	You can always use alchemical items since they will still work in an antimagic field. Most of which do precious little good after low levels, and AMF starts showing up at mid-levels.
Solaria 03-02-08, 02:45 AM	What's really funky is anti-magic field is a personal emanation, so you can make it an innate permanent ability with Permanent Emanation from Epic Level Handbook, and turn it on or off at will. Ways to fight it: 1) cast a wall of force to protect you, and wait for the spell duration on AMF to run out. 2) molotov cocktails (oil vials) and vials of acid as ranged touch attacks. 3) enlarge the fighters so their reach is greater. this will keep them outside the AOE, so their strength and other buffs still work. they will lose enhancement bonuses on damage from their weapons. 4) various conjurations can work. In 1st edition we used to make horizontal walls of iron and drop them on the casters. Ice storm worked too, as it was pummeling damage. I think meteor swarm would work for the same reason, it's a conjuration.
mvincent 03-02-08, 03:26 AM	enlarge the fighters so their reach is greater. this will keep them outside the AOEInterestingly, a medium creature does not even need reach to attack someone inside an AMF (without entering it themselves). By the rules: when someone has a 10' emanation centered on them, there is still a square adjacent to them that is not covered by the effect.
runestar 03-02-08, 09:00 AM	A widened AMF would solve the problem though. With a 20-ft radius, it covers a colossal dragon just nicely. One interesting thing is that as an emanation, a tower shield will protect you from an AMF (though the downside is that you can't really do much while hiding behind it either).:( A dragon in an AMF would still be a very scary foe. It loses dr/magic (big whoop...as if your fighters weren't already overcoming it readily enough), its breath weapon and spells (fair enough), but still retains its most powerful weapon - its fearsome array of melee attacks. In exchange, it is virtually immune to most spells, and fighters attacking it have to contend with their weapons being effectively masterwork (or worse, if it can extend its AMF into them). As for ideas on how to counter it...:embarrass
mvincent 03-02-08, 01:58 PM	A widened AMF would solve the problem though. With a 20-ft radius, it covers a colossal dragon just nicely.While the dragon would be covered, most of the squares adjacent to it would not be.
Solaria 03-02-08, 07:54 PM	Interestingly, a medium creature does not even need reach to attack someone inside an AMF (without entering it themselves). By the rules: when someone has a 10' emanation centered on them, there is still a square adjacent to them that is not covered by the effect. Please provide a reference for this rule; as far as I can tell, the emanation would cover a 3X3 box, with the caster in the middle.
Urithair 03-03-08, 12:19 AM	I don't think you can reference a rule that doesn't exist.
mvincent 03-03-08, 01:55 AM	Please provide a reference for this ruleFrom the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#area): "The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection." The topic is discussed in further detail here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=13241363). Mind you, I personally don't like the strict RAW ruling (and often house-rule otherwise), but I was detailing a 'by the rules' oddity that is fairly well known to rules heavies on this board. I don't think
ArcTan 03-03-08, 02:07 AM	Well you're DM's wrong (unless our friends at WOTC have changed it in the new 'oh all mighty Rule Compendium'); Dragon Breath is a supernatural ability, and is stopped by AMF. They have. AMF officially no longer blocks line of effect -- that is, magic can "travel through" an AMF to create effects on the other side of it, it just can't make a magical effect inside the AMF itself.
ArcTan 03-03-08, 02:09 AM	Well, aside from the wrong way your DM was using AMF, the Iron Heart Surge maneuver from ToB kicks AMF in the nuts pretty hard. Just have your initiator walk into the AMF and active the Surge and the AMF is no more. Of course, that's because IHS is really, really poorly written and therefore a literal interpretation makes it stupidly broken.
Solaria 03-03-08, 03:09 AM	From the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#area): "The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection." The topic is discussed in further detail here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=13241363). Mind you, I personally don't like the strict RAW ruling (and often house-rule otherwise), but I was detailing a 'by the rules' oddity that is fairly well known to rules heavies on this board. Well, that's silly. Obviously the designers didn't think of this, and common sense needs to apply. A) if it is centered on a grid intersection, then obviously the AOE is going to be a 4X4 box, as the corner squares are within 10' of the intersection. per other rules on what squares are affected by AE spells, any part of a square in the effect means the square is affected. but B) The rule on grid intersection is just wrong. Also, larger creatures get extended reach. It seems to me this would extend the range of their emanations as well. Does a dragon's detect magic get cut short because he's bigger? I don't think so. An emanation obviously should extend out from the boundaries of the creature in all directions. Otherwise, what happens if a dragon casts something like Blade Barrier? Or Prismatic Sphere? It's silly to think that their spells won't fully encompass them.
kjenks 03-03-08, 08:26 AM	A widened AMF would solve the problem though. With a 20-ft radius, it covers a colossal dragon just nicely. Widen Spell doesn't work with AMF. Spell effects cannot extend beyond the range of the spell, even with Widen Spell or Sculpt Spell. The range of AMF is 10 ft. Area spells like AMF are always centered on a grid intersection. Put these things together and you can see that AMF can't cover all of a Huge or larger spellcaster. See the 10-ft. radius template on page 307 of the DMG. Now center that template on a grid intersection and you'll see that you can bypass AMF (mostly) by standing outside of it and attacking the spellcaster. If the spellcaster is Large, there are at least four squares you can stand in where you are (mostly) unaffected by AMF, but the spellcaster is affected. If the spellcaster is Huge, there are many such squares.
mvincent 03-03-08, 01:33 PM	Well, that's silly. Obviously the designers didn't think of thisWhile I agree that it is counter-intuitive, most of the designers appear to be aware of it. From the 3.5 FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a): "A turn/rebuke attempt is similar to, but not exactly like, a 60-foot-radius spherical burst. Like a burst, the effect expands from the point of origin (which must be a grid intersection of the turning character’s space)" From the Rules of the Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050412a): "As with any burst, the center can be any grid intersection in the space he occupies." and (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040824a) "The point of origin for any area spell always must be an intersection of squares on the grid you use to regulate combat. This rule greatly simplifies the task of deciding exactly where the area extends. Once you choose the point of origin, the spell's area extends from there." From the 3.0 FAQ: "the effect is two squares long and two squares wide, and the center is any corner of the square where the cube of force user stands. (The cube user picks the corner.)" B) The rule on grid intersection is just wrong. Also, larger creatures get extended reach. It seems to me this would extend the range of their emanations as well. Does a dragon's detect magic get cut short because he's bigger? I don't think so. An emanation obviously should extend out from the boundaries of the creature in all directions. Otherwise, what happens if a dragon casts something like Blade Barrier? Or Prismatic Sphere? It's silly to think that their spells won't fully encompass them.Again, while I agree with you, this is how the D&D rules do indeed work. As mentioned, this was discussed in the thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=13342907) I provided earlier, and WotC custserv even provided an answer: "The Area of the spell does not change with the size of the caster, the dragon would not be completely encompassed by it." House-rule as you like (I do)... but there is no reason to be upset merely because I am providing you with accurate (if disagreeable) information. Sometimes people even thank me for the research I provide.
Beckettvampire 03-04-08, 09:51 AM	Personal favorate vs AMF= Cometfall. Dragon go splat. Conjuration (Creation) spell basically deals up to 15d6 damage as a meteor falls from the sky on your target 4 squares. Also, many of the Elemental Domains spells are also Conjuration (creation) spells, so same deal there.
nameneeded 03-04-08, 08:22 PM	I see no reason why Dispell Magic/ Greater Dispell magic wouldn't work. AMF is a non instant spell effect. ie has a duration which means the AMF SPELL can be targeted by DM/GDM. Of course you have to cast it from outside the AMF's area but still. People always seem to forget that DM/GDM can target spell effects and not just living targets. Also there is a spell in either Complete Scoundrel call Spell Theft that transfers a targets active spell effects to you. That should work as well. Don't forget if its a life/ death thing grab the book and look it up! :D
mvincent 03-04-08, 08:28 PM	I see no reason why Dispell Magic/ Greater Dispell magic wouldn't work.The AMF description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm) says: "Dispel magic does not remove the field, though Mage's Disjunction might" Mage’s Disjunction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesDisjunction.htm) has "a 1% chance per caster level of destroying an antimagic field."
nameneeded 03-04-08, 08:37 PM	The AMF description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm) says: "Dispel magic does not remove the field, though Mage's Disjunction might" Mage’s Disjunction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesDisjunction.htm) has "a 1% chance per caster level of destroying an antimagic field." Dammit your right! But Spell Theft still works just fine. Well there's still the fact that its range is only 10' and that last line comments "Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field." Last time I checked Dragons tend to be larger than 10'
mvincent 03-04-08, 09:08 PM	Well there's still the fact that its range is only 10' and that last line comments "Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field." Last time I checked Dragons tend to be larger than 10'Well, it's a 10' radius, rather than diameter. Also, only size huge or larger dragons are larger than 10', and those are actually less common than size large or smaller dragons.
Zog_Jakome 03-04-08, 10:20 PM	I believe it is things like this be the reason why they are making a 4th edition. ***Speaking not by rules here when it says "centered" on the caster it should be centered on the caster not a nearby intersection. if the creature casting the spell happens to be medium, huge, or colossal the center of their space is a square not an intersection. I see no reason why spells can't be centered on squares. If they must be centered on intersections then problems arise when you need to decide which of the 4 intersections to center the spell. If the creature is colossal casting the spell do they get to choose which of the 49 intersections to center the spell or just the 4 insterections that makes up its center square. to me there should be two kinds of areas one that centers on a caster(via the square) like turning, radius emanations, creature target emanations(AMF, magic circle against X). and the other that centers on grid intersections like fireball or other instantaneous effects.[/rant]
ArcTan 03-05-08, 04:41 AM	AMF is definitely one of those Proud Nails they could never quite hammer in.
ArcTan 03-05-08, 04:43 AM	***Speaking not by rules here when it says "centered" on the caster it should be centered on the caster not a nearby intersection. if the creature casting the spell happens to be medium, huge, or colossal the center of their space is a square not an intersection. I see no reason why spells can't be centered on squares. Because creature minis have to stand within areas made up of whole squares. You can't be half-in and half-out of a square, so you can't have an effect that only takes up half a square -- because all movement takes place in squares and that would make where you're standing become impossible to adjudicate. It's an abstraction. Personally as a DM I would just handwave this.
mvincent 03-05-08, 12:10 PM	you can't have an effect that only takes up half a squareI think the method that many players use is that if say, a character is surrounded by a 10' radius effect, all opponents within 10' (i.e. 2 squares away) are affected.
elonin 03-06-08, 07:12 PM	That's kind of funny. If the dragon centers the Blade Barrier on itself then it may very well be sliced to bits. Spells don't automatically widen to protect their casters. For a nonwidened AMF the dragon's head may very well be sticking out giving the party some bits to take aim at.
Solaria 03-06-08, 11:26 PM	I believe it is things like this be the reason why they are making a 4th edition. Haha, no it's not. They're making 4th edition to make people buy more books, because D&D is not a growth industry. If D&D were growing they would continue to sell lots more books to new players. Instead, 4e will be drastically incompatible with 3e or 3.5e. This will make all current books (including the burgeoning used book market in D&D books) obsolete, because if you want to play at conventions and stuff you'll have to play 4e.
Solaria 03-06-08, 11:30 PM	AMF is definitely one of those Proud Nails they could never quite hammer in. That is because they insist on sticking spell origins at grid intersections. Obviously they do this to make it nice and neat for miniatures, but it is a decision based on mechanics, not common sense, and it always gets you in trouble when you ignore common sense. Imagine a caster with a permanent emanation from the epic feat. Every time she moves a square she has to designate a new intersection as the source of her emanation. Or maybe the source moves from intersection to intersection, but that would continually change which squares are currently affected.
Solaria 03-06-08, 11:34 PM	If spell effects are truly so inflexible for larger creatures that they can't adjust to the creature, then think about a fireball. It does damage to the creature in each square that it affects. Think about that for a minute. Imagine a fireball landing on a white dragon, or other big creature. If spells didn't adjust to consider it in its entirely, it would do damage to the creature multiple times, once in each square. After all, if you had a dozen orcs in a bunch, it would be doing damage in each square, so why not?
kjenks 03-07-08, 12:35 AM	Er, uh, no.
Solaria 03-07-08, 02:24 AM	Er, uh, no. Exactly. Spells aren't so rigid, they stretch a bit to encompass their target. Hold monster doesn't affect one dragon leg, it affects the entire creature, no matter how big it is. Petrification isn't a fixed radius effect. The spell magic affects creatures once, it's independent of creature size. A personal emanation doesn't emanate from a grid intersection, it doesn't emanate from the center of the creature, it emanates from the creature. A 10' emanation will radiate out 10' from the creature in all directions. Sometimes WotC folks just don't understand how stuff works, and so they write it down wrong. They should have consulted Elminster, he could have told 'em.
kjenks 03-07-08, 09:23 AM	Exactly. Spells aren't so rigid, they stretch a bit to encompass their target. Hold monster doesn't affect one dragon leg, it affects the entire creature, no matter how big it is. Petrification isn't a fixed radius effect. The spell magic affects creatures once, it's independent of creature size. No, no, no. Read the spell description again. AMF does not say that it "affects the entire creature, no matter how big it is." It says the opposite. A personal emanation doesn't emanate from a grid intersection... Yes, it really, really does. Read those rules again. "Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don’t control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection."
nameneeded 03-08-08, 04:21 PM	Exactly. Spells aren't so rigid, they stretch a bit to encompass their target. Hold monster doesn't affect one dragon leg, it affects the entire creature, no matter how big it is. Petrification isn't a fixed radius effect. The spell magic affects creatures once, it's independent of creature size. A personal emanation doesn't emanate from a grid intersection, it doesn't emanate from the center of the creature, it emanates from the creature. A 10' emanation will radiate out 10' from the creature in all directions. Sometimes WotC folks just don't understand how stuff works, and so they write it down wrong. They should have consulted Elminster, he could have told 'em. In the spell description it comments that if the caster is to large to fit within the area of affect then his/ her exposed parts are not protected. I can't recal another spell that has made that distinction. As for the fireball example the spell affects all objects in the area of effect regardles of size. Thats why it does its damage to "everything" in the blast and not the damage to "every square".
Mestar 03-22-08, 11:44 PM	Nameneeded, it doesn't say anything about the caster being too big. It says "Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field." Ie if you're fighting a Huge dragon and it's adjacent to you, any allies also adjacent to you that attack it will not be affected by it's (Su) damage reduction, but any allies you're flanking it with (behind the dragon and out of the AMF emanation) will still have to bypass it's damage reduction in some way. I would think that if a spell affect is emanating from you, then it would be emanating from every grid intersection that you occupy or border. So if cast by a medium creature, it would be originating from 4 grid intersections (2d) or 8 grid intersections (3d) when needing to determine range for a tall creature. Affects like fireball that don't emanate from a creature emanate from a single grid intersection.. As for the original purpose of this thread, kicking AMF in the groin, I'd say the best way to do so is to use it to your advantage. Normally the biggest crutch about AMF is the fact that the caster can't cast anymore spells. When fighting against a dragon that casts it, you need to make use of other spells that won't directly affect the area. Fireball can set fire to a building. Just back away from the caster, then set fire to the room around him and let it burn. Also: "The effects of instantaneous conjurations, such as create water, are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result." Ie step out of the AMF and Cone of Cold, Burning Hands, Scorching Ray, and yes, the Orb spells the target to death. The magic simply creates the cold, fire, and orb and sends them in a direction of your choosing. Fireballs, with a 20ft burst, could be centered 15ft away from the target and still affect it. Why? Simply because the conjuration takes place in your area, which is out of the AMF, and sends them in a direction at a range of your choosing in a straight line. (Area of effects and targeted spells where LoS/LoE matters work but when the spell is directed entirely from magic [magic missles] it fails)
kjenks 03-23-08, 01:01 AM	I would think that if a spell affect is emanating from you, then it would be emanating from every grid intersection that you occupy or border. So if cast by a medium creature, it would be originating from 4 grid intersections (2d) or 8 grid intersections (3d) when needing to determine range for a tall creature. Affects like fireball that don't emanate from a creature emanate from a single grid intersection.. You might think that, but you'd be wrong. "Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don’t control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection." (Player's Handbook.)
Zog_Jakome 03-23-08, 06:57 AM	Haha, no it's not. They're making 4th edition to make people buy more books, because D&D is not a growth industry. If D&D were growing they would continue to sell lots more books to new players. Instead, 4e will be drastically incompatible with 3e or 3.5e. This will make all current books (including the burgeoning used book market in D&D books) obsolete, because if you want to play at conventions and stuff you'll have to play 4e. well yea but an idea came from that fact that they know they needed two things. 1. more money 2. a fix for 3rd edition BS. simply put they rushed 3rd ed which is why they came out with a 3.5. but 3.5 still had huge flaws in it. they have taken everything they learned about 3/.5 ed, and inputs from "us", and instead of making a dozen free erattas on all this crap they decided "hey we'll make some more money if we just make a new edition." Because creature minis have to stand within areas made up of whole squares. You can't be half-in and half-out of a square, so you can't have an effect that only takes up half a square -- because all movement takes place in squares and that would make where you're standing become impossible to adjudicate. It's an abstraction. Personally as a DM I would just handwave this. so if a cleric unleashes a turn effect the first thing that would have to be done is answer the question "which grid intersection is it being centered on?" that is incredibly stupid and annoying and what about ongoing effects such as magic circle against X. "well I center it on this grid intersection this round with plans that next round it's going to be centered on this grid intersection over here." for obvious spells that are not centered on creatures, fireball comes to mind, it will be centered on an intersection but for effects which are centered on creatures(death mark, turning, magic circle agianst X, auras) will be centered the square. How do I handle that? well for example a 60 foot radius burst centered on a square; if I can start in the centered square and move 60 feet to the square you are at you are affected.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 03-24-08, 03:15 AM	I think you guys are over thinking this. Why on earth is any spell caster (or item wearer, which yes, dragons are supposed to be using items) without some kind of shaping ability using AMF? Let your meleer leap attack them while the rogue SAs them to death via flanking. You would be shocked at how easy things like demons, angels, outsiders, devils, mindflayers, or anything else above CR 10 is when they lose their Su/Sp abilities.
aelryinth 03-24-08, 04:48 PM	This isn't the CharOPs board, but to the OP, your DM isn't screwing with you. There's a feat, in Savage Species I believe, that makes a Su feat Extraordinary (and another one that makes a SPell like Supernatural, yes?) It was one of the key feats for a broken power build on the CHar Ops boards some time back. So, your DM's dragon took the feat and made its breath Weapon Ex. No big deal. the thing to do is to fight the dragon with distance attacks and orb spells, while restricting its range of motion with various wall spells. Note that, un like earlier editions, you can't conjure a wall of iron in midair and crush something anymore. Also note that evocations won't do the job...you specifically need conjuration damage spells, which for the most part are the elemental orbs. However, getting smacked for 90 pts a pop by a 15d6 maximized orb is likely to ruin that dragon's day, or something. ===Aelryinth
Mestar 03-25-08, 10:16 AM	You might think that, but you'd be wrong. "Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don’t control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection." (Player's Handbook.) raWr I say. But note that it doesn't say a single grid intersection...
Mestar 03-25-08, 10:18 AM	This isn't the CharOPs board, but to the OP, your DM isn't screwing with you. There's a feat, in Savage Species I believe, that makes a Su feat Extraordinary (and another one that makes a SPell like Supernatural, yes?) It was one of the key feats for a broken power build on the CHar Ops boards some time back. So, your DM's dragon took the feat and made its breath Weapon Ex. No big deal. the thing to do is to fight the dragon with distance attacks and orb spells, while restricting its range of motion with various wall spells. Note that, un like earlier editions, you can't conjure a wall of iron in midair and crush something anymore. Also note that evocations won't do the job...you specifically need conjuration damage spells, which for the most part are the elemental orbs. However, getting smacked for 90 pts a pop by a 15d6 maximized orb is likely to ruin that dragon's day, or something. ===Aelryinth WHy wouldn't evocations work? The spell does say conjurations, but it's not italized like every other spell type reference. I would then take that to mean it's 'coming into existence' just has to take place outside the field.
Mestar 03-25-08, 10:20 AM	raWr I say. But note that it doesn't say a single grid intersection... And if it does and I missed it... Well, that's when a DM should make a house ruling especially if the spell says something like "you are surrounded by a barrier" yada yada yada. **Whoops, meant to hit edit, not quote...**
Suspect_Unusual 03-25-08, 01:20 PM	This isn't the CharOPs board, but to the OP, your DM isn't screwing with you. There's a feat, in Savage Species I believe, that makes a Su feat Extraordinary (and another one that makes a SPell like Supernatural, yes?) It was one of the key feats for a broken power build on the CHar Ops boards some time back. So, your DM's dragon took the feat and made its breath Weapon Ex. No big deal. the thing to do is to fight the dragon with distance attacks and orb spells, while restricting its range of motion with various wall spells. Note that, un like earlier editions, you can't conjure a wall of iron in midair and crush something anymore. Also note that evocations won't do the job...you specifically need conjuration damage spells, which for the most part are the elemental orbs. However, getting smacked for 90 pts a pop by a 15d6 maximized orb is likely to ruin that dragon's day, or something. ===Aelryinth I see Supernatural Transformation, but nothing for a Supernatural ability to become Extraordinary... at least, in Savage Species.
DeathlessJuan 03-25-08, 06:51 PM	Wow. I've always just ruled that the AMF effected all squares within two squares around the creature (and the creature itself). Why else would someone cast the spell if they weren't 100% covered by it? Of course, I don't think the people who designed the spell thought anything larger than Large size would be using it, which is what is causing the confusion.
aelryinth 03-25-08, 09:02 PM	WHy wouldn't evocations work? The spell does say conjurations, but it's not italized like every other spell type reference. I would then take that to mean it's 'coming into existence' just has to take place outside the field. Evocations are always magical. The AM Shell is like a solid wall to it...the fireball can't expand into it, because it's magical flame *(subject to SR and all that). A Conjuration, once it comes into existence, is just an object. Tossing an Orb of fire at someone in an AM shell is like throwing a torch at them...has no effect. Yes, it's stupid. But, it's also how the spell works. === On the Su to Ex ability, I freely admit I could be misremembering. If so, I apologize. It does seem like exactly what the dragon is doing, however. ===Aelryinth
bluedsteel 03-27-08, 01:23 AM	Evocations are always magical. The AM Shell is like a solid wall to it...the fireball can't expand into it, because it's magical flame *(subject to SR and all that). A Conjuration, once it comes into existence, is just an object. Tossing an Orb of fire at someone in an AM shell is like throwing a torch at them...has no effect. Yes, it's stupid. But, it's also how the spell works. Correct. This is also why a fireball set to hit outside the AMF wouldn't deal splash damage... it's still magical fire. And no, it's not stupid... Conjuration (creation) spells create the real, non-magical thing. They use magic to do it, but as long as the caster isn't in the AMF, the thing is created, and then it's non-magical when it enters the AMF. The LOE thing might be stupid... "My Enervation, as a magical ray, travels through the AMF and hits the guy on the other side without being affected by the MAGIC CANCELING AREA IT WENT THROUGH" is dumb. But Conjuration (creation) spells make perfect sense. @ OP: If your DM was using a dragon with an AMF, your DM is giving you a softball (whether he realized it or not.) Stand back and pelt it to death with broken bottles. (Or Shrink Item'd boulders, if you want it to be fast.)
Netjack 03-27-08, 01:54 PM	Wait, wait, wait, what spells still work in an anti magic field? My understanding of it was simple, anything that touches it thats magical is disspelled. any conjuring spell that does calling? Can you still control them inside the field?
bluedsteel 03-27-08, 02:16 PM	First, An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell’s duration. Note that this says suppressed, not dispelled, so if you have Protection from X or Stoneskin on and walk into an AMF, you can regain the protection by leaving the AMF as long as there's still time remaining in the spell's duration. Second, Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field (see the individual spell descriptions). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this. All of these spells and other magical items/characters continue to function regardless of an AMF. Third, The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result. This is why the Orb spells totally dominate AMF - they're instantaneous conjurations. The magic takes place at the conjuration location... the result itself isn't magical. Note that this doesn't mean you can cast Orb spells, etc., inside an AMF - then the magical conjuration would fail. And as regarding your question about summons... Summoned creatures of any type and incorporeal undead wink out if they enter an antimagic field. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away. Time spent winked out counts normally against the duration of the conjuration that is maintaining the creature. If you cast antimagic field in an area occupied by a summoned creature that has spell resistance, you must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against the creature’s spell resistance to make it wink out. Note that this is summoned creatures only. Called creatures are unaffected by AMF, except for losing spell-like or supernatural abilities, since calling is an instantaneous duration... this is also why called creatures can't be dispelled. Here's the link so you can read it for yourself. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm
mvincent 03-27-08, 02:19 PM	Wait, wait, wait, what spells still work in an anti magic field? My understanding of it was simple, anything that touches it thats magical is disspelled. any conjuring spell that does calling? Can you still control them inside the field?The rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#antimagic) say "Summoned or conjured creatures of any type, as well as incorporeal creatures, wink out if they enter the area of an antimagic effect". However "a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can’t be dispelled" or eliminated via AMF. If you have some sort of magical control over the called creature, that would not function while in an AMF (nor would its ability to return to its homeplane), but luckily most called creatures act on your benefit due to an agreement rather than a magical effect.
mvincent 03-27-08, 02:40 PM	This is why the Orb spells totally dominate AMF - they're instantaneous conjurations.So are cure spells, teleport spells, certain wall spells, almost all healing/Resurrection effects, etc. but we do not allow them to be cast into an AMF. The location of the caster doesn't matter so much as the destination of the effect. Once the effect has occurred, it can then be taken into the AMF. AMF says: "The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result." The implication is that the results of the instantaneous spell obviously can't be negated by an AMF, but you still could not initially cause those results (i.e. effects) inside an AMF. Like most spells, the effects of an acid orb (or cure spell, wall, etc.) are not actually the caster's location, but at the destination... that is the normal implication associated with its 'range' entry.
bluedsteel 03-27-08, 03:06 PM	So are cure spells, teleport spells, certain wall spells, almost all healing/Resurrection effects, etc. but we do not allow them to be cast into an AMF. The location of the caster doesn't matter so much as the destination of the effect. Once the effect has occurred, it can then be taken into the AMF. AMF says: "The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result." The implication is that the results of the instantaneous spell obviously can't be negated by an AMF, but you still could not initially cause those results (i.e. effects) inside an AMF. Like most spells, the effects of an acid orb (or cure spell, wall, etc.) are not actually the caster's location, but at the destination... that is the normal implication associated with its 'range' entry. Cure spells etc. won't work because they're touch, which means you'd have to be inside the AMF. As I said, the magical conjuration won't work from there. However... you're mistaken about Orb spells and the importance of caster location. The spell description explicitly states that the orb is conjured at the caster's location - specifically, their palm - then shot at the target. So the magic takes place at the caster's location, while the effect takes place wherever the Orb hits. It's quite clear that the important thing is the caster's location, not the target's. If the caster is inside an AMF, then no, he couldn't cast anything, with some few exceptions that I already pointed out. However, if he's casting from outside, there are any number of instantaneous conjuration spells that will permit the magical conjuration of a non-magical something, which can then be launched/sent into an AMF.
mvincent 03-27-08, 03:28 PM	Cure spells etc. won't work because they're touchNot mass cures (moot point anyway, since I listed of numerous other spells, and can list more) The spell description explicitly states that the orb is conjured at the caster's locationThen play as you like. The point is moot for me (since I don't allow orb spells)... I was actually thinking of acid splash (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/acidSplash.htm) and create water (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createWater.htm) as my examples. I reckon you would allow acid splash to be cast into an AMF, but not create water (even though they are both instantaneous conjurations with a range of 'close')? While I personally treat them similarly, I can understand an interpretation not to.
bluedsteel 03-27-08, 05:11 PM	For me, it would depend on the point of origin of the spell. Create Water would work if you created the water above the AMF, as an example. And Mass Heal wouldn't work on anyone inside the AMF, since it causes a magical effect on the subject. Same with Divine Reach'ed Cures. There are other spells... Ice Knife, Icelance, I think Vitriolic ... is it Orb or Sphere? ... that'd work fine. Anyway, the point is, AMF hardly makes you practically invulnerable to magic, any more than the quality "invulnerable to magic" like golems have does. ;)
mvincent 03-27-08, 05:31 PM	Same with Divine Reach'ed Cures. There are other spells... Ice Knife, Icelance, I think Vitriolic ... is it Orb or Sphere? ... that'd work fine.But can you understand why someone might choose to treat them similarly, and not try to guess on how they are applied based on the description? What about say, an acid arrow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/acidArrow.htm) fired into the AMF? AMF hardly makes you practically invulnerable to magic, any more than the quality "invulnerable to magic" like golems have does. ;)A golem's immunity only affects spells that allow spell resistance, whereas Antimagic fields are intended to be more powerful. As a thought exercise: would you treat an acid splash any different here if it were metamagic'd with Sacred Spell, Subdual Substitution, or Energy Substitution (cold or sonic)?
bluedsteel 03-27-08, 05:41 PM	Possibly. Acid Arrow and Acid Splash are Conjuration (creation) with an instantaneous duration, so I'd say they're both fine. As a thought exercise... I'd have to go look the metamagic up, but my initial guess would be no, since it'd still be a conjuration (creation) spell with an instantaneous duration.
mvincent 03-27-08, 06:42 PM	Possibly. Acid Arrow and Acid Splash are Conjuration (creation) with an instantaneous durationAcid arrow actually has a duration. Regardless, can you understand how the text you are using ("The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field") is being applied sporadically based on the spell's fluff text?
bluedsteel 03-27-08, 08:48 PM	Acid arrow actually has a duration. Regardless, can you understand how the text you are using ("The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field") is being applied sporadically based on the spell's fluff text? True. And yes, I do understand why it's applied sporadically. I'm just saying that AMF isn't nearly as big a deal as the OP thought... it's actually rather crippling for the caster who casts it on themself.
aelryinth 03-28-08, 11:39 AM	Unless that caster has hellaciuos melee ability, multiple movement modes, and retains an AoE ranged attack of its own. Like, say, a Dragon. ===Aelryinth