Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xsargoth 08-16-05, 02:32 PM	HELP!, alright first off i wasnt sure where this went, but since its magic i figured here was a good place. My question is: A monster has 10/epic damage reduction and also emits a constant antimagic field, ex: Iron Colossus. would an epic weapon, even though its magics are annuled, still bypass the damage deduction??
Xsargoth 08-16-05, 02:42 PM	. :confused:
AlexVADnD 08-16-05, 02:44 PM	A monster has 10/epic damage reduction and also emits a constant antimagic field, ex: Iron Colossus. would an epic weapon, even though its magics are annuled, still bypass the damage deduction?? I am by no means an expert on these things, but I would have to say: No Just my 2cp
Leach 08-16-05, 02:46 PM	Erg, that's a nasty combo. I'm assuming the creature's DR isn't a Supernatural ability. (A lich's is, but a skeleton's isn't, for example) By the simple fact that it has both the DR 10/epic and the constant antimagic field, I'd say the epic weapon still bypasses the DR, even though it doesn't get its bonus. After all, if the field nullified its epic-ness, why not just give the monster DR 10/— ? (Unless whoever created the monster intends for you to dispel the field first. But I think only mage's disjunction can dispel an antimagic field, and even then you have to get lucky, so I don't think that's it.) That's my take on it, anyway.
Xsargoth 08-16-05, 02:47 PM	thanx, and that brings me to another question. How in the gods name do you bypass it?
AlexVADnD 08-16-05, 02:56 PM	thanx, and that brings me to another question. How in the gods name do you bypass it? Frankly, if you are of the appropriate level to be fighting an Epic enemy, reduction of damage by 10 is really not all that substantial.
Lina_Inverse 08-16-05, 03:14 PM	Erg, that's a nasty combo. I'm assuming the creature's DR isn't a Supernatural ability. (A lich's is, but a skeleton's isn't, for example) By the simple fact that it has both the DR 10/epic and the constant antimagic field, I'd say the epic weapon still bypasses the DR, even though it doesn't get its bonus. After all, if the field nullified its epic-ness, why not just give the monster DR 10/— ? (Unless whoever created the monster intends for you to dispel the field first. But I think only mage's disjunction can dispel an antimagic field, and even then you have to get lucky, so I don't think that's it.) That's my take on it, anyway. collosi anti magic fields dont affect them anyways.you need an epic weapon(+6 or higher) and it has to ignore the antimagic field.this is easy at epic,create an epic version of magic weapon that makes +50 weapons or something.
MythMage 08-16-05, 09:28 PM	I would say "yes" to the first posted question, but I'm not entirely sure. I can't find an official source for this. My logic is explained at the end of this post, based information I will now give: I took a look at the main D&D FAQ, and I found a chart stating that damage reduction bypassed by magic weapons (and aligned weapons, and special materials besides adamantine) are supernatural and suppressed by antimagic fields. DR bypassed by adamantine or slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning weapons, as well as that which can't be bypassed at all, are extraordinary abilities and not affected by antimagic. Exceptions may be specifically noted in a monster's entry. Though this chart did not mention epic weapons specifically, I would guess that epic weapon vulnerability is extremely similar to magic weapon vulnerability, and that such DR is also supernatural. If I am correct, this monster does not benefit from its DR except when its field is down. Based on this information, it seems logical that DR is only magical if its vulnerability is of that nature. Therefore, if a vulnerability to "epic-ness" is not magical, then "epic-ness" is not magical either. Although an epic magic weapon lacks its finite enhancements, it is still an epic weapon. If that vulnerability is supernatural, then epic weapons likely are not considered epic while their powers are suppressed.
Xsargoth 08-18-05, 11:40 AM	I would say "yes" to the first posted question, but I'm not entirely sure. I can't find an official source for this. My logic is explained at the end of this post, based information I will now give: I took a look at the main D&D FAQ, and I found a chart stating that damage reduction bypassed by magic weapons (and aligned weapons, and special materials besides adamantine) are supernatural and suppressed by antimagic fields. DR bypassed by adamantine or slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning weapons, as well as that which can't be bypassed at all, are extraordinary abilities and not affected by antimagic. Exceptions may be specifically noted in a monster's entry. Though this chart did not mention epic weapons specifically, I would guess that epic weapon vulnerability is extremely similar to magic weapon vulnerability, and that such DR is also supernatural. If I am correct, this monster does not benefit from its DR except when its field is down. Based on this information, it seems logical that DR is only magical if its vulnerability is of that nature. Therefore, if a vulnerability to "epic-ness" is not magical, then "epic-ness" is not magical either. Although an epic magic weapon lacks its finite enhancements, it is still an epic weapon. If that vulnerability is supernatural, then epic weapons likely are not considered epic while their powers are suppressed. :eek: Teach me oh great one!! We are worms! but in all seriousness, thanx this does help.
tarkin 08-18-05, 12:15 PM	I disagree on their logic. They did not base DR being supernatural or not on "nature". That is the side affect. They based the ruling on game balance. They made the ruling specifically to deal with this kind of problem. In my opinion, this is their reasoning: "Any DR that we expect people to need magic to beat, that will be supernatural so that in an anti-magic field the monster won't be excessively powerfull. Any DR that we expect people to use a non-magical means to counter, that will be an Extraordinary ability. As such, I would have to say that DR/Epic, as it usually requires an epic magic weapon, should clearly be considered a Supernatural ability most of the time. I could see it being made Extraoridinary for a powerfull God, not for a regular epic creature that has it.
Raven Dark 08-18-05, 01:39 PM	Antimagic Field (Ex): A colossus constantly generates an antimagic field in a 100-foot-radius. The field is an invisible barrier that is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines, except for the colossus’s own supernatural abilities. This effect is otherwise as an antimagic field cast by a 25th-level caster. Oh, look at that! Whether you interpret his DR to be supernatural or not is moot. It's still there. Also, to my knowledge, an epic magical item still works like any other magical item and thus is still negated by the field. By my interpretation of the rules (which would appear to agree with the RAW) your epic magical weapons (now masterwork) would NOT get past the colossus's DR. I hope that helps.
Leach 08-18-05, 02:27 PM	Also, to my knowledge, an epic magical item still works like any other magical item and thus is still negated by the field. By my interpretation of the rules (which would appear to agree with the RAW) your epic magical weapons (now masterwork) would NOT get past the colossus's DR. I hope that helps. But the question is, then, if all epic weapons are negated (become normal) because of the colossus's constant anti-magic field, then why put the DR at "10/epic" anyway? Why not "10/—", since the one condition that can get past the DR can't get to it? There are three solutions I've come up with: 1) Elsewhere on this board it was suggested that since epic magic items are practically equivalent or superior to artifacts, they're not affected by anti-magic field. 2) Another possibility is that being an epic sword means more than just a masterwork sword with a +6 bonus. In this case, even when the sword loses its enhancement bonuses, it still counts as epic. 3) Last one is there being some way to negate the anti-magic field. If you can do this, then your epic weapons work and the DR 10/epic makes sense. I don't know which, if any, of these is right. Something has to allow an epic weapon that counts as epic to actually hit the colossus, otherwise it'd just have DR 10/—. Does anyone know for certain which condition that is?
MythMage 08-18-05, 03:03 PM	First of all, I agree with intrepretation #2, as posted by Leach. Second, it seems that there is no way to negate, disrupt, or disjoin the colossus's antimagic field. If that is the case, then it seems logical that an epic weapon is considered epic even when its magic is suppressed. Otherwise, there is no way that I can see to bypass the colossus's damage reduction. Of course, this logic doesn't work so well if someone finds a way around that antimagic field. Until then, I'm sticking with #2.
Scion of Coldshard 08-18-05, 03:14 PM	You might be able to get around its DR by having your own antimagic field. One antimagic field does not effect another and so yours would negate its DR. Otherwise there are few items that could get around it. An artifact with a +6 or higher enhancement could (epic DR is bypassed by any weapon of +6 enhancement or higher). Useing the epic level handbook is a mistake in general in my opinion however, there are to many broken things in it ;)
The Abominable Darkling 08-18-05, 03:24 PM	Personally, I wouldn't infer anything from the DR 10/epic other than the author probably has a shakey grasp of the rules.
Kyuketsukiouji 08-18-05, 03:49 PM	Using Disjunction allows you to bring the Anti-magic field down for a round, at which point the type of DR comes into play.
Sentinel of Bharrai 08-18-05, 04:09 PM	It's been a while since I've read the rules. but I believe by RAW, Artifacts can ignore Antimagic Fields. So if you had an "epic artifact" (don't know if those exist or if that's just redundant), it would bypass the mosters DR. Also, if you had an artifact that wasn't epic, you might be able still use any magical abilities the weapon possesses within the AF even though you might not be able to bypass the DR. Just a thought anyhow. Apologies if my premise is incorrect.
Raven Dark 08-18-05, 05:15 PM	It's been a while since I've read the rules. but I believe by RAW, Artifacts can ignore Antimagic Fields. So if you had an "epic artifact" (don't know if those exist or if that's just redundant), it would bypass the mosters DR. Also, if you had an artifact that wasn't epic, you might be able still use any magical abilities the weapon possesses within the AF even though you might not be able to bypass the DR. Just a thought anyhow. Apologies if my premise is incorrect. Darn you Sentinel! You beat me to it! Just to reiterate (and maybe simplify): Artifact Weapon +6 or higher bypassed DR Artifact Weapon +5 or lower does not bypass DR (unless the artifact specifically says so) Having the DR be Epic is also important for those rare instances in which you can somehow bypass or negate the AMF.
MythMage 08-18-05, 10:33 PM	Using Disjunction allows you to bring the Anti-magic field down for a round, at which point the type of DR comes into play. I don't think that disjunction would work in this case, because the antimagic field is extraordinary. Extraordinary powers are never affected by disjunction.
stamhaven 08-19-05, 08:04 AM	Simple mechanical ansewer is to just treet it like DR 10/- As AlexVADnD said a threshold of 10 isn't that big a deal for an epic monster. If I were running an epic game and wanted to include Iron Colossi though I would change all of them to have had DR x/Adamantite as they're supposed to be suped up golems. They seem to have suffered a poorly thought out conversion to 3.5 (and may have been goofy in 3.0 too). I might increase the threshold by 5 or 10 points to each as well as I would like them to be better than their smaller cousins in just about every aspect including DR. Even epic people fainc a crit immune monster without magic will care about DR 30 and make sure they have the right tool for the job. Their HP could use the extra padding since they're loosing out on so many Con bonus points just by being constructs.
Mirtek 08-19-05, 08:12 AM	How in the gods name do you bypass it? That's it :P Just be a god, as gods ignore antimagic fields :D About the DR of the Colossus: You either have an artifact (normal epic items are no saver from AMF than non-epic items, only artifacts have the chance to ignore them) or just do enough damage or chancel the field for some time to get a few attacks in with epic weapons