Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Igairsx 01-06-06, 04:58 PM	here's a thought: Take the initiate of mystra feat which allows one to cast spells within an antimagic shield and dead magic zones, pending their checks result. Use area control metamagic to shape the spell around you so that your items are not affected...then, blast away with your own spells. As far as i can see, only melee would be a problem. For this to last all the time you could use permanent emanation epic feat to make the shield last all day long...woot! what do you guys think? Time for the strict rules lawyers to wet their pants...ahhahah
Seeker95 01-06-06, 06:04 PM	Even with shaping, and the ability to cast a spell *within* the field, you can't cast a spell *through* the field.
Igairsx 01-06-06, 09:23 PM	"within" or "through" are the same thing. The spell would not just stop. Try again rules lawyers. The initiate of mystra feat allows for this...
devilgoat 01-06-06, 09:35 PM	i had this argument before on these boards. I wanted to do the same thing with an archmage but shape out my entire body and leave a little hole to cast fireball beads through. They told me that your DM should only let you shape out 5' squares.. i think. essentialy i think you casn do what you are asking if your DM will allow you to shape like that. ANyone else got any ideas?
Igairsx 01-06-06, 09:46 PM	well, the shaping doesnt really matter here. i just included that for the sake of not going down the path of whether one could actually stand in the antimagic zone without their objects becoming masterwork or staying the same....what I was really trying to focus on was the Initiate of Mystra feat. It ALLOWS one to cast spells within and through antimagic zones and dead magic zones, so this is definitely allowed. For those DM's that dont allow one to be in the field, use shaping feat to make it go around him...whether 5 foot blocks or outlining his form it doesnt really matter. Melee is all the spellcaster has to worry about here.
runestar 01-06-06, 09:52 PM	Been there, done that to death by the CO residents. :)
Kiklio 01-06-06, 10:12 PM	You're asking to get be attacked by ninjas...through the floor. They have etherealness for a reason. Either that or an initiate of the sevenfold veil creating an indigo/violet veil combo around you- try casting spells through that, or even stepping through it. A daring halfling monk might make a Sun School dimension spring attack onto your face- try making the Concentration check then. Not to mention psions using Burrowing Power. Not to mention a wizard could cast something like spiritwall originating on your square. Or a bloody melf's acid arrow. That'll screw with your Concentration as well.
Igairsx 01-07-06, 12:15 AM	an incantatar build could cast spells into ethereal plane...so bye bye ethereal ninjas
devilgoat 01-07-06, 08:21 AM	So if you stand in a an antimagic field that has a hole in your 5' square.. what happens? You can't cast out? no one can cast in? What about a fireball... if the bead burst outside the AM field would the burst radius still hit the 5' of unprotected space?
devilgoat 01-07-06, 08:31 AM	Also how do u get " area control metamagic to shape the spell " as was said in initial post?? i thought only an archmage could?
Gnarl 01-07-06, 09:43 AM	What area affect metamagic feat are you talking about? The only one I know is sculpt spell. The only way it would work is with the Archmage Mastery of Shaping ability. Ok, so a wizard polymorphed into a cat in between your legs using an antimagic shield would be nasty. As a side note, where did you read that a spell that passes through an antimagic field is suppressed? I believe the 'space within this barrier is imprevious to magical effects'. After a quick reading of the spell, it seems that if the field was in the middle of a battlefield, creates on both sides of the field could still toss fireballs on each others. Similarly, if you target the 5' square without the field with a fireball, only you would be hit. Otherwise, with Initiate of Mystra, you can cast spells in an antimagic shield, with roughly a 50% chance of failure. It works kind of better with the Arcane Mastery feat. Makes it a bit more reliable. Does that sound overpowered to you?
Terraneaux 01-07-06, 09:56 AM	Extraordinary Spell Aim from the Complete Adventurer lets you do this as well. Its a pretty dirty trick, but fair. All you really have to feat is mdj or someone who used a wish to make themselves immune to the effect of an antimagic field.
Gnarl 01-07-06, 01:57 PM	Extraordinary Spell Aim from the Complete Adventurer lets you do this as well. Its a pretty dirty trick, but fair. All you really have to feat is mdj or someone who used a wish to make themselves immune to the effect of an antimagic field. Where did you see that you can't target a creature on the other side of an antimagic field or in the empty spaces of an antimagic field? I might just be a blind mole but I just can't find any part of the spell description suggesting it works the way most people assume it does.
Seeker95 01-07-06, 05:53 PM	Where did you see that you can't target a creature on the other side of an antimagic field Line of Effect.
devilgoat 01-07-06, 07:21 PM	ah yes! Line of effect! reading line of effect on pg 176 phb says that you can't target someone in the antimagic field AND if you cast a fireball outside the AM filed, the burst won't pass through it because even bursts need a line of effect! BUT what use is this to a wizard? If my wizard is in a AM field and he sculpts himself out of it.. well he still can't cast any spells. What happens if my wizard makes a 1' hole in the AM field that only he knows about. Can anyone else see it or use it the blast him back?
Seeker95 01-07-06, 08:25 PM	What happens if my wizard makes a 1' hole in the AM field that only he knows about. Can anyone else see it or use it the blast him back?I as DM would not allow a "only he knows about" condition. If you fire through it, you've indicated its presence.
Rjo 01-07-06, 08:49 PM	What happens if my wizard makes a 1' hole in the AM field that only he knows about. Can anyone else see it or use it the blast him back? As per the SRD: The archmage can alter area and effect spells that use one of the following shapes: burst, cone, cylinder, emanation, or spread. The alteration consists of creating spaces within the spell’s area or effect that are not subject to the spell. The minimum dimension for these spaces is a 5-foot cube. Furthermore, any shapeable spells have a minimum dimension of 5 feet instead of 10 feet. This ability costs one 6th-level spell slot.
Gnarl 01-08-06, 05:19 AM	Line of Effect. That's precisely why I'm saying the trick doesn't work. As someone mentioned, player's handbook page 176: Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indiciates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight. You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which to create an effect (such as conjuring a monster). You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast, such as the center of a fireball. A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creatures, or objects to which it has line of effect from its origin. Antimagic field is in no way a solid barrier. A lightening bolt cast from one side of an antimagic field affects someone on the other side of the field (provided he is not within the field). If a wizard or cleric manages to make a 5' square unaffected within the field, he too would be a affected by the lightening bolt.
devilgoat 01-08-06, 07:47 AM	what the deuce? anyway.. you can make the initiate of mystra feat work betewr by casting your AM field at the min possible level and your other spells at the max caster lvl. true?
Seeker95 01-08-06, 12:59 PM	Antimagic field is in no way a solid barrier. A lightening bolt cast from one side of an antimagic field affects someone on the other side of the field (provided he is not within the field).It may not be "a solid barrier" but it suppresses the spell . Since the spell is suppres as soon as it enters the AMF, its line is stopped. You cannot fire any spell through an AMF if it requries line of effect. A solid barrier stops the line. An AMF stops the effect.
Anathema 01-08-06, 01:25 PM	A lightening bolt cast from one side of an antimagic field affects someone on the other side of the field (provided he is not within the field). I didn't see anything that specifically supported this. Antimagic field, it would seem to me, would suppress a line-area effect as it struck the field; but it wouldn't prevent a fireball from passing through it. and blasting an area beyond the field. You are right though, in saying that an antimagic field does not block line of effect per how line of effect is written, but antimagic field strictly says that it negates anything entering it.
Seeker95 01-08-06, 01:31 PM	antimagic field strictly says that it negates anything entering it.Before someone with an agenda jumps on you for this... AMF doesn't negate anything. It suppresses. This may effectively negate the outcome or intended effect as a consequence of suppression.
Rundor The Mighty 01-08-06, 06:36 PM	Before someone with an agenda jumps on you for this... AMF doesn't negate anything. It suppresses. This may effectively negate the outcome or intended effect as a consequence of suppression. That is what sometimes makes things odd though in this situation. Lets say there is an archmage with the spell on but his 5 ft square was left out of the spell. Now if I hurl a fireball bead at that middle square the question is; how does it supress my fireball and for how long? Does the bead travel through the antimagic and detonate in the open square? Does it hover within the antimagic area? I also never thought of this but what could happen when I cast lets say an acid orb while INSIDE the field; Does the spell actually stop (supress) the creation of the orb and if so does the orb appear and fly out AFTER the field leaves the area in which the orb was orignally cast? I mean how can we know the answer to the first part of this, how exactly a spell is created at casting time is not intricate enough in its detail to let us know if the antimagic actually supresses an offensive conjuration spell. What if all that happends is I wave my fingers and blabble and then boom a spell pops out and at that LAST moment is when the magic happends...and how does it happen? What would be stopping me then from casting an acid orb inside of an antimagic field and having the spell actually fire? This is where opinions will differ and this is probably why WOTC actually admitted that they pulled an article on antimagic because no one could settle on an answer.
mythandra 01-09-06, 03:12 PM	So if you stand in a an antimagic field that has a hole in your 5' square.. what happens? You can't cast out? no one can cast in? What about a fireball... if the bead burst outside the AM field would the burst radius still hit the 5' of unprotected space? Unless you get to ignore the supressive effect of an AMF, the bead would be considered non-magical for the length of space that it passes through the AMF. Assuming that the DM lets you do this (rule 0), strictly speaking, it would be like throwing a pebble. Those have a range increment of 10', if I'm not mistaken. There is no official ruling that I'm aware of. This would seem to be a matter for the DM's do decide on a case-by-case basis. Were it I DM'ing, I'd impose an attack roll.
Rjo 01-10-06, 02:38 AM	That is what sometimes makes things odd though in this situation. Lets say there is an archmage with the spell on but his 5 ft square was left out of the spell. Now if I hurl a fireball bead at that middle square the question is; how does it supress my fireball and for how long? Does the bead travel through the antimagic and detonate in the open square? Does it hover within the antimagic area? I also never thought of this but what could happen when I cast lets say an acid orb while INSIDE the field; Does the spell actually stop (supress) the creation of the orb and if so does the orb appear and fly out AFTER the field leaves the area in which the orb was orignally cast? Taking a look at Antimagic Field's description An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell’s duration. Summoned creatures of any type and incorporeal undead wink out if they enter an antimagic field. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away. Spells cast into an antimagic field stop as soon as they enter into the field. They remain at that spot until the field moves away, or the spells duration expires. For spells like Fireball or Orb of Acid, which have duration Instantaneous they immediately end. Spells with longer duration (such as delayed blast fireball) may stick around long enough to continue after the field is gone, in which case they will resume their flight as soon as the field is gone.
Gnarl 01-10-06, 08:03 AM	Spells cast into an antimagic field stop as soon as they enter into the field. They remain at that spot until the field moves away, or the spells duration expires. For spells like Fireball or Orb of Acid, which have duration Instantaneous they immediately end. Spells with longer duration (such as delayed blast fireball) may stick around long enough to continue after the field is gone, in which case they will resume their flight as soon as the field is gone. Your point makes sense, and is shared by many people. But you are assuming that something "enters the field". Entering the field implies motion and direction. A lightening bolt originates your fingers and spreads up to 120'. Ok, the flavore text on this one implies motion, you've made a point on lightening bolt. Unfortunately, most spells are not as clear as lightning bolt. Does a 40' burst imply some kind of motion, or is it a generic term to describe the 3-dimensional portion of space affected by the spell and the way it enteracts with obstacles? Truth is, I didn't find an answere to that one. It could make sense for a fireball to detonate from one point in space, but what about bless? Take a look at spells that affect a single target (excluding rays). Most don't have any flavor text explaining that some invisible missile goes from the caster towards the target of the spell. Is a charm person spell 'entering' an antimagic field if the target of the charm was on the other side of the field?
Igairsx 01-10-06, 02:37 PM	wow..you guys are really disecting this for nothing...the initiate of Mystra feat allows for one to cast through an antimagic shield.... Ok, but aside from that...think about this for what you guys are digressing on: The idea of the weave for magic is kinda like a coordinate system. Where an antimagic field exists or a dead magic zone exists, the weave does not. An antimagic zone bends magical zones so that magic cannot exist there. You guys are thinking of things all wrong. It is impossible for magic to travel through areas where magic cannot travel...if anything, a ray spell or an area effect spell would go around an antimagic field because the coordinates for it to travel no longer exist inside but around the field. Spells dont travel through with no effect and then hit the guy in the middle who has a hole there because the spell would not be able to travel that way. If anything, the spell would go around him because there would be no coordinates for the spell to hit him. Now, the initiate of mystra feat makes things complicated and can be interpreted by any as they wish. The fact remains that it says that one can cast in an antimagic field with this feat. How is that possible when an antimagic zone bends magicl zones so magic cannot exist there? interpret as you wish. For me, Mystra is the Mother of magic and allows for it to occur.