Antimagic Woes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Antimagic Woes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
OgreBane99
11-27-06, 06:17 PM My party of 14th level adventurers have now basically began walking around dungeons with antimagic field in constant affect. The problem is that I'm running the "Shackled City" adventure path and the party is about is about to encounter a big-bad villian of the story, a beholder.

I'm afraid that antimagic field is going to make the battle against the beholder lame and very anticlimatic. Any advice on countering antimagic field?

It may be important to note that I'm using the variant beholder (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20061028a)as seen on the WotC website.....
Chrono Nexus
11-27-06, 06:22 PM Counterspell it. Or rule that overlapping fields of antimagic cancel eachother, in which case the beholder can function just fine...
Or just don't use a beholder.
Merestil Haye
11-27-06, 06:31 PM Just going from memory...

The Behlder has made it virtually impossible to move around safely without magic (except for him). Leave them utterly immobile and have the beholder drop chunks of stone on them then disapppear off. Make it impossibe for them to even engage him without coming out of the field, and make them sorry when they do.
Thomas_Covenant
11-27-06, 07:13 PM I dunno, AntiMagic Shell is a great tactic when fighting a BBEG Beholder solo.

How are your players functioning against other critters, though?

Giants, Purple Worms, basically anything with Size, Str, and Natural Armor as a base should eat PC's in antimagic. (Sometimes literally.)

For extra fun, rush a Fire Giant or two with non-magically heated weapons, AntiMagic usually does not help PC's, with their masses of magic items.
Tenebrous_Sage
11-27-06, 07:46 PM It may be important to note that I'm using the variant beholder (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20061028a)as seen on the WotC website.....Why would you ever consider using that ill conceived PoS? Especially against a party that is high enough level to cast Antimagic Field; they'll wipe the floor with it regardless.
Thomas_Covenant
11-27-06, 07:48 PM Why would you ever consider using that ill conceived PoS? Especially against a party that is high enough level to cast Antimagic Field; they'll wipe the floor with it regardless.Yowch. Missed that in the OP.

Seriously, I couldn't finish reading the variant beholder, I may literally have flinched, closed my eyes, and exited the window.
JJeff
11-27-06, 09:32 PM Well, in response to an Antimagic Field, you could place non-magical problems or tatctics, like using the Disintegrate eye ray to bring the roof down, make the Beholder a spellcaster so that the beholder can cast No-SR instanenous Conjuration spells that can get pass the AMF/AMS.

Or just get the beholder to charm a horde of creatures to swarm the PCs and bull rush the PCs away from the caster of the AMF and then pick them off one by one.
Keterys
11-27-06, 10:44 PM That beholder is _fine_ (it has problems, but no more than the normal one, so whatever, don't demean his choice), though you realize it does make the way the doors are handled in that area of the dungeon a little odd?

Antimagic field is only a 10-ft radius, just put him above it (it's a 50 foot tall room). He's supposed to be above it anyways. He can spit paralyzing spit on all the creatures below. If you want, you can put some boulders or other weapons in the room if you want something for him to hurl at creatures.

If they prove too dangerous for him to fight, even so, he can just disintegrate 20 ft up into the ceiling per round (I'd suggest going at a closed angle (10 ft diagonal one way, then diagonal the other way) so he immediately gets total cover) and retreat, as described in his tactics. He can lay down a cloudkill or stinking cloud to make it even harder to follow him / deal with him when he flees.

They can't get through the rooms while antimagic field is up (check out those doors again, magic is the only real way to get past them).

They're anti-magicing from... a sorcerer or magic/protection domain cleric? I mean, if it's a sorcerer, he's very easy to kill... especially since he has to be within 10 feet of any creature to _really_ affect it. Even the 'trash' Farastu demodands earlier in the module should be pretty threatening in an antimagic field compared to how hard they are normally.

I guess, in an optimal situation, they have some people magic-ing (things like passwall, etc) and only ducking into the antimagic field when it's necessary, or bringing the field to bear on certain opponents?

If the player with the antimagic field can fly nonmagically then you're screwed in a different way... hopefully that's not the case.
Tenebrous_Sage
11-27-06, 11:57 PM That beholder is _fine_If by fine you mean nerfed beyond all belief, then yes, I agree.
Keterys
11-28-06, 12:23 AM Ah. I take it you haven't actually _used_ it, then, to give that information? The +4 DCs, ability to use all of its abilities into one arc, elimination of non-useful rays, and extra rays per round from barrage actually are quite notable... while its antimagic is way nerfed, it can actually go ahead and use it, which has a big effect.

It has serious, serious issues. But so does a normal beholder. A normal beholder is 'scarier' due to its greater number of save or dies, but it's also easier to deal with and less consistently dangerous (it's scary that you might roll a 1 on your save against one of those save or dies, but the normal beholder then explodes. This beholder has a lot more 'teeth' against a party that knows how to deal with a beholder and has good saves.
runestar
11-28-06, 12:32 AM Disintegrate the ceiling and drop huge rock chunks on the party...charm melee minions to send against the PCs - they will be sitting ducks against them, and if they lower their AMF to benefit from magic, the beholder is there to spam eye rays against them...make it a "darned if you do, damned if you don't" type of scenario.:)
Keterys
11-28-06, 04:58 PM Tenebrous Sage was nice enough to start another thread examining the new vs. old beholder:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=746652

I posted an alternate beholder in there which is closer to a mix of the two versions. I mention this primarily because with the revised beholder, several of the actions in the module make less sense (it no longer has charm monster or petrification eye rays, for instance), and the doors there get tougher. The one posted in that thread is the one I intend to use against my party in Shackled City (well, after applying the template from the module - note that the one in the module is already advanced forward a couple Hit Dice, but there's no need to do so with the version listed in that thread) - worst case you could potentially use it for ideas on swapping a couple eye rays (change charm person to charm monster is a big one - I guess you could always just give him an option to either disintegrate -or- statue anyone who he reduces to 0 or lower with his dis ray)

Are you going to have him down 1 eye ray? (I mean, losing inflict mod is no big deal, but losing an actual eye ray is something else)
Tenebrous_Sage
11-29-06, 12:32 AM Tenebrous Sage was nice enough to start another thread examining the new vs. old beholder:I'm nothing if not accommodating.
Keterys
11-29-06, 12:39 AM Hehe. I was worried about derailing this one with the topic, so I was glad you posted.

That said, surprised no response from the OP on any of the points. I _think_ the fight in question is safe as long as his roving antimagic field can't burrow through stone and fly.

Now, for _other_ fights, I can see antimagic being a very serious concern... are there any big problems with it being removed from the game? I know, strong step, but it keeps being brought up by R&D as 'Proud Nail' and a pain point, and frankly I'm just wondering if it would be a better game if it didn't exist, at all. Various ways to dispel magic, suppress magic, make magic do all kinds of crazy things, but no - everything is turned off unless you're high epic or follow Mystra. It helps the party to not have creatures (like big red dragons) using it on them, as well, in theory.
Tenebrous_Sage
11-29-06, 12:54 AM I honestly want to know how the party functions under the continuous effects of an antimagic field. Any casters they have are useless, and none of their magic items work so their physical combatants are severely weakened (and will get closer and closer to useless as levels increase).
OgreBane99
11-29-06, 10:45 AM Thanks for all the responses folks!

I honestly want to know how the party functions under the continuous effects of an antimagic field. Any casters they have are useless, and none of their magic items work so their physical combatants are severely weakened (and will get closer and closer to useless as levels increase).

Well they just started using the antimagic field, so I haven't had too much experience with it yet. I am just recalling from a previous Campaign I ran, I had a cleric that was an Initiate of Mystra who could cast spells in the AMF. Yeeesh.

Anyways, so far the group has been a bit frustrated by the AMF. Of the six party members, 5 use spells, so an AMF really hampers them. But I think it hampers a beholder much more. The ideas of taking down the roof and using the telekenisis ray to throw stuff at them are all great ideas I didn't really think of. The group is very heavy melee oriented, so creatures at range give them some problems. Their saves are also extremely high so they don't fear spells too much. For example, there is a marshal/bard/sublime chord in the group that gives the entire party a +8 to will saves all the time, constantly. It's almost impossible to get Will save spells by them. That's one of the main reasons I went with the alternate beholder in this case. The increase Save DC was necessary in order to create a challenging enough encounter.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not looking to completely wipe the group here. I am only looking to make this encounter with the big-bad beholder boss as challenging as possible, and I felt that the AMF would really make it an easy kill since pretty much all of the beholder's abilities are (Sp) or (Su). I'm feeling much better about this encounter now, so thanks for all the help! I think the AMF, now that I understand it better, will be much more of a hinderance to the party than they are planning. Having it block line of effect is very helpful.
Merestil Haye
11-29-06, 11:23 AM I note the bit about the Bard boosting Will saves. Pretty much every single use of Bardic Music is either (Sp) or (Su) - in short, completely nullified by an AMF. Remember that. (Of course most of the Will-save-inducing stuff is also nullified by an AMF).

As I said above, the beholder's dungeon is designed and built by a beholder for a beholder. Moving around without magic is all but impossible.

The corridors don't have a flat floor, and teh surfaces are ultra smooth. Enforce the Climb DCs given in the introduction, without magic.

The doors aren't at floor level.

The door locks are magical, and won't toggle in an AMF unless the door-opener can hang onto the ledge and still make Open Lock DCs in the 40s. Without magic, including losing all his ability boosters and skill bonus items.
OgreBane99
11-29-06, 12:24 PM I note the bit about the Bard boosting Will saves. Pretty much every single use of Bardic Music is either (Sp) or (Su) - in short, completely nullified by an AMF. Remember that. (Of course most of the Will-save-inducing stuff is also nullified by an AMF).

It's actually the marshal ability or aura. I'll have to look that up and make sure it's not (Su) or (Sp). That will be fun if it is. :D

I plan on making Oblivion (the name of the beholder's dungeon they're in) a real pain in the butt with AMF. The doors are going to be tough, but in an AMF the only way to open them will be with a DC 50 Strength check... impossible.

Thanks again guys! I'll let you know how the new beholder goes since many people don't really seem to like it all that much.
Merestil Haye
11-29-06, 12:48 PM It's actually the marshal ability or aura. I'll have to look that up and make sure it's not (Su) or (Sp). That will be fun if it is. :D

I plan on making Oblivion (the name of the beholder's dungeon they're in) a real pain in the butt with AMF. The doors are going to be tough, but in an AMF the only way to open them will be with a DC 50 Strength check... impossible.

Thanks again guys! I'll let you know how the new beholder goes since many people don't really seem to like it all that much.You can use Open Lock - read O3. It gives the DC there. (It's 45).

In my game opening the lock required three PCs, two of which took the Aid Another action while the other tried opening the lock. Iirc the lead character had to take 20 (the support characters had +9 or better in Open Locks so auto-succeeded the Aid Another check) - he might have been able to succeed on 19+.

I think for my group, one of the scariest combats was the dragon who cast AMF - they reacted by scattering so the dragon couldn't close down any of them, and really scratched around to find ways of hurting the beast. AMF can be a PC killer if he's forced into battle without buffs against someone who doesn't need them much.
OgreBane99
11-29-06, 04:22 PM You can use Open Lock - read O3. It gives the DC there. (It's 45).
I'm ruling that the doors will not open automatically (either by using a spell or picking it) in an AMF. They'll have to force it open with strength alone (which is impossible).

I think for my group, one of the scariest combats was the dragon who cast AMF - they reacted by scattering so the dragon couldn't close down any of them, and really scratched around to find ways of hurting the beast. AMF can be a PC killer if he's forced into battle without buffs against someone who doesn't need them much.

That...is...GENIUS. A dragon in AMF??? Usually the party has up all the buffs needed to make its breath weapon useless, so that would be a blast.

Heck, my eyes start to water thinking about a Fang Dragon in an AMF. Yowza....
Keterys
11-29-06, 05:13 PM Dragons are kinda the eternal example of something that should use AMF against the party and how much it will screw them... and there's a dragon not long after the beholder if you feel the need.
Iver Gearsham
11-29-06, 09:03 PM OgreBane99;10772663 I'm ruling that the doors will not open automatically (either by using a spell or picking it) in an AMF. They'll have to force it open with strength alone (which is impossible).
Bring acid make it with Water to Acid 3rd lvl spell from Storm Wrack it creates 1 cubic foot of acid per caster lvl a cubic foot holds 8 gallons of liquid Shrink Item the acid then put it in a breakable container, the flask protects the Shrink Item from Line of Effect till your ready to use it.
Adamant weapons if available will handle the doors if you can swing them from the precarious positions afforded in the adventure. you might want to if your the DM offer mundane mountain climbing/spelunking equipment to aide the adventure.
Like collapsible poles to span the tunnels and climb like ladders or anchor ropes.

That...is...GENIUS. A dragon in AMF??? Usually the party has up all the buffs needed to make its breath weapon useless, so that would be a blast.
Shrink Item again can fix that if you carry a empty metal box size ten ft. on a side you would gain instant cover from the dragon that rushed you preventing full attack pouncing/charge.
This give you +4 to your AC for cover no AO's for casting spells, drinking potions and due to the probable size of the dragon it gains no benefit from the boxes cover.Heck, my eyes start to water thinking about a Fang Dragon in an AMF. Yowza....

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
OgreBane99 11-27-06, 06:17 PM	My party of 14th level adventurers have now basically began walking around dungeons with antimagic field in constant affect. The problem is that I'm running the "Shackled City" adventure path and the party is about is about to encounter a big-bad villian of the story, a beholder. I'm afraid that antimagic field is going to make the battle against the beholder lame and very anticlimatic. Any advice on countering antimagic field? It may be important to note that I'm using the variant beholder (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20061028a)as seen on the WotC website.....
Chrono Nexus 11-27-06, 06:22 PM	Counterspell it. Or rule that overlapping fields of antimagic cancel eachother, in which case the beholder can function just fine... Or just don't use a beholder.
Merestil Haye 11-27-06, 06:31 PM	Just going from memory... The Behlder has made it virtually impossible to move around safely without magic (except for him). Leave them utterly immobile and have the beholder drop chunks of stone on them then disapppear off. Make it impossibe for them to even engage him without coming out of the field, and make them sorry when they do.
Thomas_Covenant 11-27-06, 07:13 PM	I dunno, AntiMagic Shell is a great tactic when fighting a BBEG Beholder solo. How are your players functioning against other critters, though? Giants, Purple Worms, basically anything with Size, Str, and Natural Armor as a base should eat PC's in antimagic. (Sometimes literally.) For extra fun, rush a Fire Giant or two with non-magically heated weapons, AntiMagic usually does not help PC's, with their masses of magic items.
Tenebrous_Sage 11-27-06, 07:46 PM	It may be important to note that I'm using the variant beholder (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20061028a)as seen on the WotC website.....Why would you ever consider using that ill conceived PoS? Especially against a party that is high enough level to cast Antimagic Field; they'll wipe the floor with it regardless.
Thomas_Covenant 11-27-06, 07:48 PM	Why would you ever consider using that ill conceived PoS? Especially against a party that is high enough level to cast Antimagic Field; they'll wipe the floor with it regardless.Yowch. Missed that in the OP. Seriously, I couldn't finish reading the variant beholder, I may literally have flinched, closed my eyes, and exited the window.
JJeff 11-27-06, 09:32 PM	Well, in response to an Antimagic Field, you could place non-magical problems or tatctics, like using the Disintegrate eye ray to bring the roof down, make the Beholder a spellcaster so that the beholder can cast No-SR instanenous Conjuration spells that can get pass the AMF/AMS. Or just get the beholder to charm a horde of creatures to swarm the PCs and bull rush the PCs away from the caster of the AMF and then pick them off one by one.
Keterys 11-27-06, 10:44 PM	That beholder is _fine_ (it has problems, but no more than the normal one, so whatever, don't demean his choice), though you realize it does make the way the doors are handled in that area of the dungeon a little odd? Antimagic field is only a 10-ft radius, just put him above it (it's a 50 foot tall room). He's supposed to be above it anyways. He can spit paralyzing spit on all the creatures below. If you want, you can put some boulders or other weapons in the room if you want something for him to hurl at creatures. If they prove too dangerous for him to fight, even so, he can just disintegrate 20 ft up into the ceiling per round (I'd suggest going at a closed angle (10 ft diagonal one way, then diagonal the other way) so he immediately gets total cover) and retreat, as described in his tactics. He can lay down a cloudkill or stinking cloud to make it even harder to follow him / deal with him when he flees. They can't get through the rooms while antimagic field is up (check out those doors again, magic is the only real way to get past them). They're anti-magicing from... a sorcerer or magic/protection domain cleric? I mean, if it's a sorcerer, he's very easy to kill... especially since he has to be within 10 feet of any creature to _really_ affect it. Even the 'trash' Farastu demodands earlier in the module should be pretty threatening in an antimagic field compared to how hard they are normally. I guess, in an optimal situation, they have some people magic-ing (things like passwall, etc) and only ducking into the antimagic field when it's necessary, or bringing the field to bear on certain opponents? If the player with the antimagic field can fly nonmagically then you're screwed in a different way... hopefully that's not the case.
Tenebrous_Sage 11-27-06, 11:57 PM	That beholder is _fine_If by fine you mean nerfed beyond all belief, then yes, I agree.
Keterys 11-28-06, 12:23 AM	Ah. I take it you haven't actually _used_ it, then, to give that information? The +4 DCs, ability to use all of its abilities into one arc, elimination of non-useful rays, and extra rays per round from barrage actually are quite notable... while its antimagic is way nerfed, it can actually go ahead and use it, which has a big effect. It has serious, serious issues. But so does a normal beholder. A normal beholder is 'scarier' due to its greater number of save or dies, but it's also easier to deal with and less consistently dangerous (it's scary that you might roll a 1 on your save against one of those save or dies, but the normal beholder then explodes. This beholder has a lot more 'teeth' against a party that knows how to deal with a beholder and has good saves.
runestar 11-28-06, 12:32 AM	Disintegrate the ceiling and drop huge rock chunks on the party...charm melee minions to send against the PCs - they will be sitting ducks against them, and if they lower their AMF to benefit from magic, the beholder is there to spam eye rays against them...make it a "darned if you do, damned if you don't" type of scenario.:)
Keterys 11-28-06, 04:58 PM	Tenebrous Sage was nice enough to start another thread examining the new vs. old beholder: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=746652 I posted an alternate beholder in there which is closer to a mix of the two versions. I mention this primarily because with the revised beholder, several of the actions in the module make less sense (it no longer has charm monster or petrification eye rays, for instance), and the doors there get tougher. The one posted in that thread is the one I intend to use against my party in Shackled City (well, after applying the template from the module - note that the one in the module is already advanced forward a couple Hit Dice, but there's no need to do so with the version listed in that thread) - worst case you could potentially use it for ideas on swapping a couple eye rays (change charm person to charm monster is a big one - I guess you could always just give him an option to either disintegrate -or- statue anyone who he reduces to 0 or lower with his dis ray) Are you going to have him down 1 eye ray? (I mean, losing inflict mod is no big deal, but losing an actual eye ray is something else)
Tenebrous_Sage 11-29-06, 12:32 AM	Tenebrous Sage was nice enough to start another thread examining the new vs. old beholder:I'm nothing if not accommodating.
Keterys 11-29-06, 12:39 AM	Hehe. I was worried about derailing this one with the topic, so I was glad you posted. That said, surprised no response from the OP on any of the points. I _think_ the fight in question is safe as long as his roving antimagic field can't burrow through stone and fly. Now, for _other_ fights, I can see antimagic being a very serious concern... are there any big problems with it being removed from the game? I know, strong step, but it keeps being brought up by R&D as 'Proud Nail' and a pain point, and frankly I'm just wondering if it would be a better game if it didn't exist, at all. Various ways to dispel magic, suppress magic, make magic do all kinds of crazy things, but no - everything is turned off unless you're high epic or follow Mystra. It helps the party to not have creatures (like big red dragons) using it on them, as well, in theory.
Tenebrous_Sage 11-29-06, 12:54 AM	I honestly want to know how the party functions under the continuous effects of an antimagic field. Any casters they have are useless, and none of their magic items work so their physical combatants are severely weakened (and will get closer and closer to useless as levels increase).
OgreBane99 11-29-06, 10:45 AM	Thanks for all the responses folks! I honestly want to know how the party functions under the continuous effects of an antimagic field. Any casters they have are useless, and none of their magic items work so their physical combatants are severely weakened (and will get closer and closer to useless as levels increase). Well they just started using the antimagic field, so I haven't had too much experience with it yet. I am just recalling from a previous Campaign I ran, I had a cleric that was an Initiate of Mystra who could cast spells in the AMF. Yeeesh. Anyways, so far the group has been a bit frustrated by the AMF. Of the six party members, 5 use spells, so an AMF really hampers them. But I think it hampers a beholder much more. The ideas of taking down the roof and using the telekenisis ray to throw stuff at them are all great ideas I didn't really think of. The group is very heavy melee oriented, so creatures at range give them some problems. Their saves are also extremely high so they don't fear spells too much. For example, there is a marshal/bard/sublime chord in the group that gives the entire party a +8 to will saves all the time, constantly. It's almost impossible to get Will save spells by them. That's one of the main reasons I went with the alternate beholder in this case. The increase Save DC was necessary in order to create a challenging enough encounter. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not looking to completely wipe the group here. I am only looking to make this encounter with the big-bad beholder boss as challenging as possible, and I felt that the AMF would really make it an easy kill since pretty much all of the beholder's abilities are (Sp) or (Su). I'm feeling much better about this encounter now, so thanks for all the help! I think the AMF, now that I understand it better, will be much more of a hinderance to the party than they are planning. Having it block line of effect is very helpful.
Merestil Haye 11-29-06, 11:23 AM	I note the bit about the Bard boosting Will saves. Pretty much every single use of Bardic Music is either (Sp) or (Su) - in short, completely nullified by an AMF. Remember that. (Of course most of the Will-save-inducing stuff is also nullified by an AMF). As I said above, the beholder's dungeon is designed and built by a beholder for a beholder. Moving around without magic is all but impossible. The corridors don't have a flat floor, and teh surfaces are ultra smooth. Enforce the Climb DCs given in the introduction, without magic. The doors aren't at floor level. The door locks are magical, and won't toggle in an AMF unless the door-opener can hang onto the ledge and still make Open Lock DCs in the 40s. Without magic, including losing all his ability boosters and skill bonus items.
OgreBane99 11-29-06, 12:24 PM	I note the bit about the Bard boosting Will saves. Pretty much every single use of Bardic Music is either (Sp) or (Su) - in short, completely nullified by an AMF. Remember that. (Of course most of the Will-save-inducing stuff is also nullified by an AMF). It's actually the marshal ability or aura. I'll have to look that up and make sure it's not (Su) or (Sp). That will be fun if it is. :D I plan on making Oblivion (the name of the beholder's dungeon they're in) a real pain in the butt with AMF. The doors are going to be tough, but in an AMF the only way to open them will be with a DC 50 Strength check... impossible. Thanks again guys! I'll let you know how the new beholder goes since many people don't really seem to like it all that much.
Merestil Haye 11-29-06, 12:48 PM	It's actually the marshal ability or aura. I'll have to look that up and make sure it's not (Su) or (Sp). That will be fun if it is. :D I plan on making Oblivion (the name of the beholder's dungeon they're in) a real pain in the butt with AMF. The doors are going to be tough, but in an AMF the only way to open them will be with a DC 50 Strength check... impossible. Thanks again guys! I'll let you know how the new beholder goes since many people don't really seem to like it all that much.You can use Open Lock - read O3. It gives the DC there. (It's 45). In my game opening the lock required three PCs, two of which took the Aid Another action while the other tried opening the lock. Iirc the lead character had to take 20 (the support characters had +9 or better in Open Locks so auto-succeeded the Aid Another check) - he might have been able to succeed on 19+. I think for my group, one of the scariest combats was the dragon who cast AMF - they reacted by scattering so the dragon couldn't close down any of them, and really scratched around to find ways of hurting the beast. AMF can be a PC killer if he's forced into battle without buffs against someone who doesn't need them much.
OgreBane99 11-29-06, 04:22 PM	You can use Open Lock - read O3. It gives the DC there. (It's 45). I'm ruling that the doors will not open automatically (either by using a spell or picking it) in an AMF. They'll have to force it open with strength alone (which is impossible). I think for my group, one of the scariest combats was the dragon who cast AMF - they reacted by scattering so the dragon couldn't close down any of them, and really scratched around to find ways of hurting the beast. AMF can be a PC killer if he's forced into battle without buffs against someone who doesn't need them much. That...is...GENIUS. A dragon in AMF??? Usually the party has up all the buffs needed to make its breath weapon useless, so that would be a blast. Heck, my eyes start to water thinking about a Fang Dragon in an AMF. Yowza....
Keterys 11-29-06, 05:13 PM	Dragons are kinda the eternal example of something that should use AMF against the party and how much it will screw them... and there's a dragon not long after the beholder if you feel the need.
Iver Gearsham 11-29-06, 09:03 PM	OgreBane99;10772663 I'm ruling that the doors will not open automatically (either by using a spell or picking it) in an AMF. They'll have to force it open with strength alone (which is impossible). Bring acid make it with Water to Acid 3rd lvl spell from Storm Wrack it creates 1 cubic foot of acid per caster lvl a cubic foot holds 8 gallons of liquid Shrink Item the acid then put it in a breakable container, the flask protects the Shrink Item from Line of Effect till your ready to use it. Adamant weapons if available will handle the doors if you can swing them from the precarious positions afforded in the adventure. you might want to if your the DM offer mundane mountain climbing/spelunking equipment to aide the adventure. Like collapsible poles to span the tunnels and climb like ladders or anchor ropes. That...is...GENIUS. A dragon in AMF??? Usually the party has up all the buffs needed to make its breath weapon useless, so that would be a blast. Shrink Item again can fix that if you carry a empty metal box size ten ft. on a side you would gain instant cover from the dragon that rushed you preventing full attack pouncing/charge. This give you +4 to your AC for cover no AO's for casting spells, drinking potions and due to the probable size of the dragon it gains no benefit from the boxes cover.Heck, my eyes start to water thinking about a Fang Dragon in an AMF. Yowza....