Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eldariel 01-01-08, 07:52 AM	I was thinking, is there any spell potent enough to mask you from True Seeing and other forms of magical vision? Obviously Nondetection works against any sorts of scrying, but I'm more interested in actual combat range detection and abilities to circumvent that. Darkstalker Shadow Dancer is all good until someone casts the spell and renders the whole character useless. So, is there any sort of obscuring spell that trumps True Seeing? I couldn't find any in PHB, but chances are I'm looking in the wrong place. I don't have an encyclopedic memory of all the spells in all the books, so I can't be sure. Can someone point me in the right general direction within 3.5e?
Radijs 01-01-08, 07:54 AM	I believe some people have suggested 'nondetection' as a possible way to counter it. But true seeing only negates magical ways of hiding someone, like illusions. and a normal hide check should still work just fine.
Malek2991 01-01-08, 11:47 AM	True seeing also can't see through fog, so Fog Cloud, and Obscuring Mist should work. Note However, both will affect your vision as well, so these are less than ideal unless you have (or can gain) blindsight.
jaelis 01-01-08, 03:10 PM	I believe some people have suggested 'nondetection' as a possible way to counter it. I agree that nondetection should work for this purpose.
Phelf_Der_Zemit 01-01-08, 10:40 PM	This is why I love nondetection. Take all five levels of mage slayer and you'll have on permanently, then invisibility is a non escapiable route, nothing can find you.
ArcTan 01-02-08, 03:17 AM	Nondetection allows a check to overcome it. Mind blank is bulletproof. But mind blank is 8th-level.
groveborn 01-02-08, 04:39 AM	The warded creature or object becomes difficult to detect by divination spells such as clairaudience/clairvoyance, locate object, and detect spells. Nondetection also prevents location by such magic items as crystal balls. If a divination is attempted against the warded creature or item, the caster of the divination must succeed on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against a DC of 11 + the caster level of the spellcaster who cast nondetection. If you cast Nondetection on yourself or on an item currently in your possession, the DC is 15 + your caster level. Nondetection does not foil True Seeing. In order for a divination spell to be foiled by this, it would have to actively (the spell) be seeking the individual. True Seeing simply prevents illusions from tricking you. Invisibility is a glamer that affects the way the viewer sees it. Mind Blank has nothing at all to do with True Seeing. It's exclusively for preventing entry or control of the mind. The only way to foil True Seeing is to be hidden behind a physical object or mist. One could use a dispel magic to get rid of their true seeing though.
ArcTan 01-02-08, 04:25 PM	The "actively seeking the individual" thing is not actually written in the rules, and contradicted by the inclusion of clairaudience/clairvoyance, which actively seeks out nothing, and detect spells, which also don't actively seek anything out. (Indeed, your statement would only make any sense if the *only* thing listed there was locate object.) Both clairvoyance and detect spells passively wait there until something enters their field of vision, and then see them. True seeing is exactly the same way. Also, true seeing does *not* "simply" prevent illusions from tricking you. It gives you night vision, it lets you see the true form of transmuted beings, and it creates a "hazy outline" to let you see beings who *really are* invisible by nature rather than being invisible through illusion (i.e. Invisible Stalkers). It is very much an active divination spell by any definition of the term. Also, mind blank specifically states it protects you from divination. True seeing is a divination.
Dheran 01-02-08, 04:34 PM	In addition to Nondetection, which has a chance to foil True Seeing, spells that increase your mundane Hide skill check can help, because True Seeing is powerless against just being hidden. Divine Insight (Spell Compendium; up to +15 insight boost) and Guidance of the Avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) (+20 competence boost) will both give a big power-up to any skill check. You can even stack them for +35 to Hide.
Sinfire Titan 01-02-08, 05:20 PM	Wall of Stone? True Seeing ain't X-ray vision, you know...
Gloomweave 01-02-08, 05:30 PM	I also thought mind blank would work.
Witch 01-02-08, 05:31 PM	Staying 125 ft. away tends to help as well. It also makes people using true seeing believe nothing is actually there.
groveborn 01-02-08, 09:10 PM	The "actively seeking the individual" thing is not actually written in the rules, and contradicted by the inclusion of clairaudience/clairvoyance, which actively seeks out nothing, and detect spells, which also don't actively seek anything out. (Indeed, your statement would only make any sense if the *only* thing listed there was locate object.) Both clairvoyance and detect spells passively wait there until something enters their field of vision, and then see them. True seeing is exactly the same way. Also, true seeing does *not* "simply" prevent illusions from tricking you. It gives you night vision, it lets you see the true form of transmuted beings, and it creates a "hazy outline" to let you see beings who *really are* invisible by nature rather than being invisible through illusion (i.e. Invisible Stalkers). It is very much an active divination spell by any definition of the term. Also, mind blank specifically states it protects you from divination. True seeing is a divination. True Seeing is a debate we don't really need to resurrect, as you and I have already argued enough about it. I'll just agree to disagree, and continue to believe you to be wrong. I can accept that you'll do the same for me. I do not, however, understand your stance on Mind Blank. I don't know what version you're reading, but I'll quote the text. The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject's mind or to gain information about it. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn't detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all. This is the scope of the spell. It does not block *all* divinations. It would be much simpler if it said "Stops all divination spells and effects on the affected creature" if it were intended to read as such. This could *almost* be applied to my argument against Nondetection, if I stretch it a bit. Still, there it is.
ArcTan 01-03-08, 01:31 AM	This is the scope of the spell. It does not block *all* divinations. It would be much simpler if it said "Stops all divination spells and effects on the affected creature" if it were intended to read as such. This could *almost* be applied to my argument against Nondetection, if I stretch it a bit. Still, there it is. It prevents "information gathering" by divination spells. True seeing gathers information. We could have a long-winded debate about whether looking at something constitutes gathering information, or we could look at the rest of the desc, which *specifically* says that scrying and arcane eye both count as "information gathering" -- both of which gather nothing but visual information by looking at something and letting you see what's there. True seeing is the same damn thing. Whether this protects from all divinations is debatable. I'm inclined to say that it does, because "information gathering by divination spells" isn't actually that much longer than "divination spells", and ties neatly into the next sentence about "information gathering" by *non*-divination spells (like wish), and because ALL divinations, BY DEFINITION, gather information. If I had to make a list of things to exclude, though, it would be the divinations that don't directly give you conscious "information" about the subject, like true strike or moment of prescience or foresight, which don't tell you anything specific about any particular person. True seeing, though, obviously does -- being able to see visual data you normally couldn't absolutely *does* count as "information gathering", or else there's no possible way arcane eye or scrying could count as "information gathering".
jaelis 01-03-08, 09:16 AM	Personally, I think mind blank is just confusingly written. The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all. The name and the first sentence very strongly suggest that it really only protects your emotions and thoughts from being detected. The second sentence could be read as still referring to emotions and thoughts, or could be more general. The third sentence supports the more limited interpretation, since "it" would seem to refer to the subject's mind, not the subject in general. But then the last two sentences suggest that the mind isn't so important after all, and that the spell protects the caster from detection as a whole. So I think it's really a DM call here, depending on whether you think the name and first sentence are more significant, or the protections implied by the last sentences.
Pitiless_Interfector 01-03-08, 10:24 AM	There was one in Dragon Magazine in an article on the Lords of Dust. I don't have the issue, so I can't tell you more than that. The gnome illusionist substitution levels offer Insidious Illusions, requiring a caster level check to overcome them with true seeing.
groveborn 01-03-08, 02:59 PM	It prevents "information gathering" by divination spells. True seeing gathers information. We could have a long-winded debate about whether looking at something constitutes gathering information, or we could look at the rest of the desc, which *specifically* says that scrying and arcane eye both count as "information gathering" -- both of which gather nothing but visual information by looking at something and letting you see what's there. True seeing is the same damn thing. Whether this protects from all divinations is debatable. I'm inclined to say that it does, because "information gathering by divination spells" isn't actually that much longer than "divination spells", and ties neatly into the next sentence about "information gathering" by *non*-divination spells (like wish), and because ALL divinations, BY DEFINITION, gather information. If I had to make a list of things to exclude, though, it would be the divinations that don't directly give you conscious "information" about the subject, like true strike or moment of prescience or foresight, which don't tell you anything specific about any particular person. True seeing, though, obviously does -- being able to see visual data you normally couldn't absolutely *does* count as "information gathering", or else there's no possible way arcane eye or scrying could count as "information gathering". The difference in arcane eye/scrying from True Seeing is that you use a separate device to see through, not your own eyes. True Seeing is passive and simply prevents illusions from working against you. It's like using a spell to be immune to a protection from evil spell.
ArcTan 01-03-08, 03:38 PM	Except that's not true. True seeing lets you see through darkness. True seeing lets you see through transmutations. True seeing lets you see a hazy outline superimposed over creatures that are *by nature* invisible (Invisible Stalkers) rather than being invisible because of an illusion. True seeing isn't "passive" at all. It's quite active. In any case, I wasn't aware that it only counts as "information gathering" when you use a device rather than when you use your own eyes. This is not a part of the definition of "information gathering" that I ever hear except in the specific case of people trying to win this argument.
ArcTan 01-03-08, 03:52 PM	So I think it's really a DM call here, depending on whether you think the name and first sentence are more significant, or the protections implied by the last sentences. The last sentences specifically say arcane eye and scrying are blocked. You can't really get around that. FWIW, if anything saying true seeing gets blocked makes more sense than arcane eye -- true seeing is, after all, clearly seeing some kind of internal "essence" of the creature rather than the creature itself. That's the only way to explain how it can "see" the true form of someone who's genuinely physically transformed into another form, or how it can "see" an Invisible Stalker (whose flesh *genuinely is* naturally invisible and totally transparent to light).