Any way for an illusionist to defeat true seeing? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Any way for an illusionist to defeat true seeing? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Fanged Fremont
04-10-06, 04:53 PM I'm joining an epic game and was wanting to try an epic version of an illusionist I play with another group. The problem is that tons of things, the whole party included, seems to have true seeing, making my illusions worth bunk.

Is there any way to make it so my illusions aren't totally useless against things with true seeing?
KublaiKhan
04-10-06, 05:00 PM Use the Shadow versions...those are at least partly real.

Make sure your illusions have no cause to be disbelieved.

's all I can think of, anyway.
Fanged Fremont
04-10-06, 05:14 PM make sure my illusions have no cause to be disbelieved? True Seeing sees right through them regardless of them having cause to be disbelieved. Or are you saying to use such a tactic on someone who would actually have to cast the spell as apposed to having goggles of trueseeing or the abilty?
Witch
04-10-06, 05:16 PM Dispel Magic
Mage's Disjunction
Seeker95
04-10-06, 05:51 PM Why do you need your party members to be affected by your illusions?
Pandaemoni
04-10-06, 06:05 PM You could use the Unearthed Arcana variant for Illusionist. It's not a "solution" but Chains of Disbelief is a good ability when some opponent has true seeing and might spoil your fun.
KublaiKhan
04-10-06, 06:15 PM make sure my illusions have no cause to be disbelieved? True Seeing sees right through them regardless of them having cause to be disbelieved. Or are you saying to use such a tactic on someone who would actually have to cast the spell as apposed to having goggles of trueseeing or the abilty?

If everyone's got always-on true-seeing, then why bother playing an illusionist?

That being said, on further research, not every illusion is visual, nor is every illusion subject to True Seeing.

True Sight, for instance, will have absolutely zero effect on Ghost Sounds--unless you've got some kinda funkiness going on where people can see sound, but I think that's a mental illness.

Other spells not affected by True Sight:

Color Spray
Ventriloquism
Misdirection
Phantasmal Killer [ or any other Phantasm--True Seeing is for things you see; Phantasms are all in the mind ]
Shadow Conjuration [ or any other Shadow spells--they're quasi-real ]
Dream/Nightmare
Shadow Walk
Simulacrum [ Disbelieving it has nothing to do with True seeing--it's a spot and sense motive check ]
All the Universal spells [ which anyone can get ]

Yes, this difficulty does cut down on the number of 'useful' spells you can effectively cast--but you still have all the good ones.

Remember to pick up some ranks in disguise--if everyone's relying completely on True Seeing, they won't suspect a mundane disguise, which is NOT seen through by the spell.
legowarrior
04-10-06, 07:20 PM Seeing sounds, well, schizophrenia perhaps, but those would most likely be hallucinations. Maybe synthenisia.
Seeker95
04-10-06, 08:17 PM Seeing sounds, well, schizophrenia perhaps, but those would most likely be hallucinations. Maybe synthenisia.Or efavirenz-related CNS disorder!
smrtgmp
04-10-06, 08:32 PM phantasms and patterns wont be stopped by trueseeing. Shadow spells will still have their secondary effects

There is also some debate over whether or not nondetection will foil trueseeing, but there isnt an official ruling on the matter, so you had better consult your DM regarding this before you try to rely on it.

Another thing to keep in mind is that trueseeing only extends 120 ft. This means that any illusions in the distance will still be effective, which leaves a lot of wiggle room for a creative spellcaster.
ManTimeForgot
04-10-06, 08:59 PM True Seeing is notorious on the boards for stopping the illusion school dead in its tracks. But listen, you obviously have not thought through the 120 foot limitation on the true seeing spell. In addition you can use true seeing's inability to see any illusions against it.

First off a greater invisible wizard flying so as to make sure at least 125 feet of distance separates him from the target is a great way to deal with it.

But a more subtle approach is to punish the players for using true seeing always. Have some clues to a puzzle be illusionary. Have some clues to how to disarm or avoid a trap be illusionary. Use mirage arcana to create false traps in the distance, so that when the party comes within 130 feet of a trap they don't think anything of it.

Or perhaps something more useful to you as an illusionist player (utilizing the above to protect your sanctuary is all well and good, but doesn't help combat so much): use mirage arcana and other spells capable of non-visual illusions to setup your opponents. All the true seeing the in world can't let an opponent know that what they are smelling, feeling (thermal experience), or hearing is false. Mirage arcana is extremely powerful once you get to using it especially since it can create tactile effects and only takes a standard action to use (unlike the 10 minutes that hallucinatory takes). Remember even though you can't just wipe out creatures or add them with MA, you can hide behind its structures as you would a normal structure, and you can make the area too noisy to hear the party, mask the smell of the party with an overpowering stench of some other kind, create thermal effects to confuse the opposing party, give the ground a false texture to inhibit trap finding, etc.

And like the GMP said phantasms and patterns are still your friend. Create a higher level version of rainbow pattern (24 HD is not as cool at "epic" levels). Build say an 8th level spell which hits up to 48 HD of creature and maybe does some other nifty effect while its at it.

MTF
Bopple
04-10-06, 10:12 PM If you are making a new character, there are two more options.

1. Gnome Illusionist Racial Substitution level 10 [Races of Stone]
This forces those with True Seeing to roll a caster level check against your illusion spells to see through them.

2. Insidious Magic [Player's Guide to Faerun]
It does basically the same thing as #1, except it only works against Weave magic(normal magic), but not against Shadow Weave magic.
Dhavaer
04-10-06, 10:18 PM Try the Sensory Overload (http://www.giantitp.com/Func0024.html) spell. It's an Illusion with increased effects on targets with True Seeing.
Chrono Nexus
04-10-06, 10:28 PM You don't need to rely on illusion magic to be an illusionist.

True Seeing doesn't see through good disguises. Try and use one to get close-If you can get close enough to the target, dispel or somehow suppress the True Seeing effect, then follow it up with your spells.
Osieu
04-10-06, 10:33 PM If you are making a new character, there are two more options.

1. Gnome Illusionist Racial Substitution level 10 [Races of Stone]
This forces those with True Seeing to roll a caster level check against your illusion spells to see through them.

2. Insidious Magic [Player's Guide to Faerun]
It does basically the same thing as #1, except it only works against Weave magic(normal magic), but not against Shadow Weave magic.

Yes! :) I think this is the best way to help high level illusionists. If you could power up your caster levels in some ways, like Circle Magic, it's impossible for those True Seers to win the caster level check.
ManTimeForgot
04-10-06, 10:43 PM Yes! :) I think this is the best way to help high level illusionists. If you could power up your caster levels in some ways, like Circle Magic, it's impossible for those True Seers to win the caster level check.

OR... the wizard player could use creativitiy and intelligence and deal with the situation without trying to resolve it in a manner akin to brute force.

Part of playing with illusion magic is NOT taking a brute force approach to combat. Illusion is about misdirection, misinformation, and misallocation. You get your opponent to make a bad move based on faulty information, and then you make them pay for it. True seeing obviates sight based misdirection within 120 feet, but it does so in a blanket manner (the true seeing individual cannot selectively choose which illusions or magical disguises to bypass).

MTF
tarkin
04-11-06, 09:09 AM You are playing in an epic game. They players are using an Epic item. (Always on Goggles of True Seeing is NOT a regular item. To make them, it should require Epic Craft Wonderous Item.)

Any Epic spell you create and cast should be immune to true-seeing. That is why it is epic.

There are also spells that negate true-seeing or don't care about it. The Shadow spells for example.
Lord_Mephisto
04-11-06, 09:26 AM OR... the wizard player could use creativitiy and intelligence and deal with the situation without trying to resolve it in a manner akin to brute force.

Part of playing with illusion magic is NOT taking a brute force approach to combat. Illusion is about misdirection, misinformation, and misallocation. You get your opponent to make a bad move based on faulty information, and then you make them pay for it. True seeing obviates sight based misdirection within 120 feet, but it does so in a blanket manner (the true seeing individual cannot selectively choose which illusions or magical disguises to bypass).

MTF

They still exsit. Thank the Gods!

:tiphat:
Thelon Fairblade
04-11-06, 09:47 AM Here's a thought.... you could always use some other spells that aren't illusion based. Mixing up real and illusionary effects always messes up the opposition, since they don't know what to believe; if the targets are consistently using Trueseeing, just use some of the other spells you have prepared. Or, as an idea, use spells designed to relieve them of their shiny goggles....
smrtgmp
04-11-06, 10:37 AM (Always on Goggles of True Seeing is NOT a regular item. To make them, it should require Epic Craft Wonderous Item.)
There's a pre-epic continuous trueseeing item in one of the FR books (UE, I believe).
tarkin
04-11-06, 10:48 AM Not in 3.5.

In 3.0 there were several True Seeing items that were always on, but in 3.5, the only one re-published (Gem of True Seeing in DMG was converted to 30 minutes/day for the exact same price of 75,000 gp

Yes, you could house rule to let the other items in as Always on, ignoring the fact that the Gem was changed in 3.5

But if you did that, then you are playing a Power Game anyway, so you should then be capable of creating a pre-epic spell that ignores true seeing.
Findail
04-11-06, 11:02 AM Even in an Epic game: how many opponents will have always-on True Seeing? The BBEG, maybe, but a lot of creatures won't.

And, for every creature that does: that's another bucket of GP's in the party coffers when you take that item off them.

It isn't just illusionists that have this problem. For enchanters, Mind Blank is worse, because it lasts all day and doesn't leave a valuable item as loot.
Moribund
04-11-06, 11:22 AM sensory deprivation from the Spell Compendium is a useful spell under these circumstances.

It essentially blocks all sensory input for the target. Since it is a phantasm it isn't subject to true seeing. So much for them seeing through your illusions as the stumble around bumping into walls.

solipsism is poetic justice for those annoying true seeing types. It's a phantasm that convinces them every other creature is an illusion.
airwalkrr
04-11-06, 12:56 PM My suggestion is not to play in an epic level campaign, but that has less to do with illusions, and more to do with epic level campaigns.
Keenath
04-11-06, 03:06 PM Gnome racial levels aside, I think the best solution is simply to heavily nerf True Seeing. It's idiocy that a single fifth level spell can completely shut down an entire school of magic -- Mind Blank makes me feel the same way, but at least that's like 8th level. True Seeing makes Illusionists' and bards' lives very difficult after level 10.

I use the Gnomish Illusionist fix -- you roll a caster level check, True Seeing's CL against the illusion's. You win, you see through it. You lose, you don't, unless you get a will save later.
The Simbul
04-11-06, 10:30 PM Ready an action to cast Polymorph Any Object on the 250gp eye ointment material component for the spell, transforming into acid, super glue, or black lotus extract contact poison (DC 20, initial damage 3d6 CON, secondary damage 3d6 CON).
taski
04-11-06, 10:51 PM There's cloak of khyber in Dragon #337. It protects the caster from true seeing when shapechanged or magically disguised, making the disguise appear to be the caster's true form. Not very versatile, but it's only a 3rd level spell.
Atacit
04-11-06, 11:18 PM I use the Gnomish Illusionist fix -- you roll a caster level check, True Seeing's CL against the illusion's. You win, you see through it. You lose, you don't, unless you get a will save later.

Cool idea I will use in my world, thanks Keenath. Gotta agree 100% one spell shutting down a school of magic is lame!
ghost_warlock
04-12-06, 01:58 AM Another fun gnome trick uses the 5-level Shadowcraft Mage PrC from Races of Stone. Silent image, minor image, major image, persistent image, and programmed image all become Illusion (shadow) spells rather than figments, which means that whether someone believes them or not, they're still partially real.

Additionally, the class adds 20% to the effective "realness" of any those spells as well as the standard Illusion (shadow) list (shadow conjuration through shades). In this instance, shades deals 100% real damage to both believers AND non-believers and any special effect of the spell you mimic has a 100% chance of affecting them (not counting any relevant saving throws). A spell you mimic with programmed image deals 80% damage and has an 80% chance to affect non-believers.

As if that wasn't enough, all of your Illusions are silenced and extended without increasing the spell level or the casting time.
smrtgmp
04-12-06, 09:53 PM Not in 3.5.

In 3.0 there were several True Seeing items that were always on, but in 3.5, the only one re-published (Gem of True Seeing in DMG was converted to 30 minutes/day for the exact same price of 75,000 gp

Yes, you could house rule to let the other items in as Always on, ignoring the fact that the Gem was changed in 3.5

But if you did that, then you are playing a Power Game anyway, so you should then be capable of creating a pre-epic spell that ignores true seeing.Unapproachable East, which took the 3.5 changes into account, contains the Mask of Trueseeing.

I'm not saying I would allow it into my game. I'm just pointing out that it exists.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fanged Fremont 04-10-06, 04:53 PM	I'm joining an epic game and was wanting to try an epic version of an illusionist I play with another group. The problem is that tons of things, the whole party included, seems to have true seeing, making my illusions worth bunk. Is there any way to make it so my illusions aren't totally useless against things with true seeing?
KublaiKhan 04-10-06, 05:00 PM	Use the Shadow versions...those are at least partly real. Make sure your illusions have no cause to be disbelieved. 's all I can think of, anyway.
Fanged Fremont 04-10-06, 05:14 PM	make sure my illusions have no cause to be disbelieved? True Seeing sees right through them regardless of them having cause to be disbelieved. Or are you saying to use such a tactic on someone who would actually have to cast the spell as apposed to having goggles of trueseeing or the abilty?
Witch 04-10-06, 05:16 PM	Dispel Magic Mage's Disjunction
Seeker95 04-10-06, 05:51 PM	Why do you need your party members to be affected by your illusions?
Pandaemoni 04-10-06, 06:05 PM	You could use the Unearthed Arcana variant for Illusionist. It's not a "solution" but Chains of Disbelief is a good ability when some opponent has true seeing and might spoil your fun.
KublaiKhan 04-10-06, 06:15 PM	make sure my illusions have no cause to be disbelieved? True Seeing sees right through them regardless of them having cause to be disbelieved. Or are you saying to use such a tactic on someone who would actually have to cast the spell as apposed to having goggles of trueseeing or the abilty? If everyone's got always-on true-seeing, then why bother playing an illusionist? That being said, on further research, not every illusion is visual, nor is every illusion subject to True Seeing. True Sight, for instance, will have absolutely zero effect on Ghost Sounds--unless you've got some kinda funkiness going on where people can see sound, but I think that's a mental illness. Other spells not affected by True Sight: Color Spray Ventriloquism Misdirection Phantasmal Killer [ or any other Phantasm--True Seeing is for things you see; Phantasms are all in the mind ] Shadow Conjuration [ or any other Shadow spells--they're quasi-real ] Dream/Nightmare Shadow Walk Simulacrum [ Disbelieving it has nothing to do with True seeing--it's a spot and sense motive check ] All the Universal spells [ which anyone can get ] Yes, this difficulty does cut down on the number of 'useful' spells you can effectively cast--but you still have all the good ones. Remember to pick up some ranks in disguise--if everyone's relying completely on True Seeing, they won't suspect a mundane disguise, which is NOT seen through by the spell.
legowarrior 04-10-06, 07:20 PM	Seeing sounds, well, schizophrenia perhaps, but those would most likely be hallucinations. Maybe synthenisia.
Seeker95 04-10-06, 08:17 PM	Seeing sounds, well, schizophrenia perhaps, but those would most likely be hallucinations. Maybe synthenisia.Or efavirenz-related CNS disorder!
smrtgmp 04-10-06, 08:32 PM	phantasms and patterns wont be stopped by trueseeing. Shadow spells will still have their secondary effects There is also some debate over whether or not nondetection will foil trueseeing, but there isnt an official ruling on the matter, so you had better consult your DM regarding this before you try to rely on it. Another thing to keep in mind is that trueseeing only extends 120 ft. This means that any illusions in the distance will still be effective, which leaves a lot of wiggle room for a creative spellcaster.
ManTimeForgot 04-10-06, 08:59 PM	True Seeing is notorious on the boards for stopping the illusion school dead in its tracks. But listen, you obviously have not thought through the 120 foot limitation on the true seeing spell. In addition you can use true seeing's inability to see any illusions against it. First off a greater invisible wizard flying so as to make sure at least 125 feet of distance separates him from the target is a great way to deal with it. But a more subtle approach is to punish the players for using true seeing always. Have some clues to a puzzle be illusionary. Have some clues to how to disarm or avoid a trap be illusionary. Use mirage arcana to create false traps in the distance, so that when the party comes within 130 feet of a trap they don't think anything of it. Or perhaps something more useful to you as an illusionist player (utilizing the above to protect your sanctuary is all well and good, but doesn't help combat so much): use mirage arcana and other spells capable of non-visual illusions to setup your opponents. All the true seeing the in world can't let an opponent know that what they are smelling, feeling (thermal experience), or hearing is false. Mirage arcana is extremely powerful once you get to using it especially since it can create tactile effects and only takes a standard action to use (unlike the 10 minutes that hallucinatory takes). Remember even though you can't just wipe out creatures or add them with MA, you can hide behind its structures as you would a normal structure, and you can make the area too noisy to hear the party, mask the smell of the party with an overpowering stench of some other kind, create thermal effects to confuse the opposing party, give the ground a false texture to inhibit trap finding, etc. And like the GMP said phantasms and patterns are still your friend. Create a higher level version of rainbow pattern (24 HD is not as cool at "epic" levels). Build say an 8th level spell which hits up to 48 HD of creature and maybe does some other nifty effect while its at it. MTF
Bopple 04-10-06, 10:12 PM	If you are making a new character, there are two more options. 1. Gnome Illusionist Racial Substitution level 10 [Races of Stone] This forces those with True Seeing to roll a caster level check against your illusion spells to see through them. 2. Insidious Magic [Player's Guide to Faerun] It does basically the same thing as #1, except it only works against Weave magic(normal magic), but not against Shadow Weave magic.
Dhavaer 04-10-06, 10:18 PM	Try the Sensory Overload (http://www.giantitp.com/Func0024.html) spell. It's an Illusion with increased effects on targets with True Seeing.
Chrono Nexus 04-10-06, 10:28 PM	You don't need to rely on illusion magic to be an illusionist. True Seeing doesn't see through good disguises. Try and use one to get close-If you can get close enough to the target, dispel or somehow suppress the True Seeing effect, then follow it up with your spells.
Osieu 04-10-06, 10:33 PM	If you are making a new character, there are two more options. 1. Gnome Illusionist Racial Substitution level 10 [Races of Stone] This forces those with True Seeing to roll a caster level check against your illusion spells to see through them. 2. Insidious Magic [Player's Guide to Faerun] It does basically the same thing as #1, except it only works against Weave magic(normal magic), but not against Shadow Weave magic. Yes! :) I think this is the best way to help high level illusionists. If you could power up your caster levels in some ways, like Circle Magic, it's impossible for those True Seers to win the caster level check.
ManTimeForgot 04-10-06, 10:43 PM	Yes! :) I think this is the best way to help high level illusionists. If you could power up your caster levels in some ways, like Circle Magic, it's impossible for those True Seers to win the caster level check. OR... the wizard player could use creativitiy and intelligence and deal with the situation without trying to resolve it in a manner akin to brute force. Part of playing with illusion magic is NOT taking a brute force approach to combat. Illusion is about misdirection, misinformation, and misallocation. You get your opponent to make a bad move based on faulty information, and then you make them pay for it. True seeing obviates sight based misdirection within 120 feet, but it does so in a blanket manner (the true seeing individual cannot selectively choose which illusions or magical disguises to bypass). MTF
tarkin 04-11-06, 09:09 AM	You are playing in an epic game. They players are using an Epic item. (Always on Goggles of True Seeing is NOT a regular item. To make them, it should require Epic Craft Wonderous Item.) Any Epic spell you create and cast should be immune to true-seeing. That is why it is epic. There are also spells that negate true-seeing or don't care about it. The Shadow spells for example.
Lord_Mephisto 04-11-06, 09:26 AM	OR... the wizard player could use creativitiy and intelligence and deal with the situation without trying to resolve it in a manner akin to brute force. Part of playing with illusion magic is NOT taking a brute force approach to combat. Illusion is about misdirection, misinformation, and misallocation. You get your opponent to make a bad move based on faulty information, and then you make them pay for it. True seeing obviates sight based misdirection within 120 feet, but it does so in a blanket manner (the true seeing individual cannot selectively choose which illusions or magical disguises to bypass). MTF They still exsit. Thank the Gods! :tiphat:
Thelon Fairblade 04-11-06, 09:47 AM	Here's a thought.... you could always use some other spells that aren't illusion based. Mixing up real and illusionary effects always messes up the opposition, since they don't know what to believe; if the targets are consistently using Trueseeing, just use some of the other spells you have prepared. Or, as an idea, use spells designed to relieve them of their shiny goggles....
smrtgmp 04-11-06, 10:37 AM	(Always on Goggles of True Seeing is NOT a regular item. To make them, it should require Epic Craft Wonderous Item.) There's a pre-epic continuous trueseeing item in one of the FR books (UE, I believe).
tarkin 04-11-06, 10:48 AM	Not in 3.5. In 3.0 there were several True Seeing items that were always on, but in 3.5, the only one re-published (Gem of True Seeing in DMG was converted to 30 minutes/day for the exact same price of 75,000 gp Yes, you could house rule to let the other items in as Always on, ignoring the fact that the Gem was changed in 3.5 But if you did that, then you are playing a Power Game anyway, so you should then be capable of creating a pre-epic spell that ignores true seeing.
Findail 04-11-06, 11:02 AM	Even in an Epic game: how many opponents will have always-on True Seeing? The BBEG, maybe, but a lot of creatures won't. And, for every creature that does: that's another bucket of GP's in the party coffers when you take that item off them. It isn't just illusionists that have this problem. For enchanters, Mind Blank is worse, because it lasts all day and doesn't leave a valuable item as loot.
Moribund 04-11-06, 11:22 AM	sensory deprivation from the Spell Compendium is a useful spell under these circumstances. It essentially blocks all sensory input for the target. Since it is a phantasm it isn't subject to true seeing. So much for them seeing through your illusions as the stumble around bumping into walls. solipsism is poetic justice for those annoying true seeing types. It's a phantasm that convinces them every other creature is an illusion.
airwalkrr 04-11-06, 12:56 PM	My suggestion is not to play in an epic level campaign, but that has less to do with illusions, and more to do with epic level campaigns.
Keenath 04-11-06, 03:06 PM	Gnome racial levels aside, I think the best solution is simply to heavily nerf True Seeing. It's idiocy that a single fifth level spell can completely shut down an entire school of magic -- Mind Blank makes me feel the same way, but at least that's like 8th level. True Seeing makes Illusionists' and bards' lives very difficult after level 10. I use the Gnomish Illusionist fix -- you roll a caster level check, True Seeing's CL against the illusion's. You win, you see through it. You lose, you don't, unless you get a will save later.
The Simbul 04-11-06, 10:30 PM	Ready an action to cast Polymorph Any Object on the 250gp eye ointment material component for the spell, transforming into acid, super glue, or black lotus extract contact poison (DC 20, initial damage 3d6 CON, secondary damage 3d6 CON).
taski 04-11-06, 10:51 PM	There's cloak of khyber in Dragon #337. It protects the caster from true seeing when shapechanged or magically disguised, making the disguise appear to be the caster's true form. Not very versatile, but it's only a 3rd level spell.
Atacit 04-11-06, 11:18 PM	I use the Gnomish Illusionist fix -- you roll a caster level check, True Seeing's CL against the illusion's. You win, you see through it. You lose, you don't, unless you get a will save later. Cool idea I will use in my world, thanks Keenath. Gotta agree 100% one spell shutting down a school of magic is lame!
ghost_warlock 04-12-06, 01:58 AM	Another fun gnome trick uses the 5-level Shadowcraft Mage PrC from Races of Stone. Silent image, minor image, major image, persistent image, and programmed image all become Illusion (shadow) spells rather than figments, which means that whether someone believes them or not, they're still partially real. Additionally, the class adds 20% to the effective "realness" of any those spells as well as the standard Illusion (shadow) list (shadow conjuration through shades). In this instance, shades deals 100% real damage to both believers AND non-believers and any special effect of the spell you mimic has a 100% chance of affecting them (not counting any relevant saving throws). A spell you mimic with programmed image deals 80% damage and has an 80% chance to affect non-believers. As if that wasn't enough, all of your Illusions are silenced and extended without increasing the spell level or the casting time.
smrtgmp 04-12-06, 09:53 PM	Not in 3.5. In 3.0 there were several True Seeing items that were always on, but in 3.5, the only one re-published (Gem of True Seeing in DMG was converted to 30 minutes/day for the exact same price of 75,000 gp Yes, you could house rule to let the other items in as Always on, ignoring the fact that the Gem was changed in 3.5 But if you did that, then you are playing a Power Game anyway, so you should then be capable of creating a pre-epic spell that ignores true seeing.Unapproachable East, which took the 3.5 changes into account, contains the Mask of Trueseeing. I'm not saying I would allow it into my game. I'm just pointing out that it exists.