any way to deny reflex save? [Archive] - Wizards Community

any way to deny reflex save? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Roland Falantyr
09-18-06, 10:22 AM do grappled, stunned, dazed, paralyzed or otherwise hindered from acting status effects deny a character a reflex save for an area of effect spell?
Mort_Q
09-18-06, 10:54 AM Characters always get a saving throw, as near as I can tell, unless some special power prevents it. Even helpless characters. It's not totally logical, but this is D&D after all. Helpless characters suffer a huge penalty however.

Helpless (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#helpless)

A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (-5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks gets no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

Grappled (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple) and pinned (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#pinned) characters are immobile but not helpless.

Stunned (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#stunned) characters are not helpless.

Dazed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dazed) characters are not helpless.

Paralyzed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#paralyzed) characters are helpless, and therefor have an effective DEX of 0, so they have -5 penalty to their reflex save.

I hope that helps.
tarkin
09-18-06, 11:09 AM Merely being helpless is not enough. If you are asleep, you still get a Reflex save, albeit with a Dex of 0.

HOWEVER, the DMG does say that the DM can rule that you get no save if something is inescapable. This is supposed to be something really really hard to avoid. Such as being in a piston trap (room is 10x10 square, no exist, 50 ton cube that is 10x10 comes crashing down on you.)
Roland Falantyr
09-18-06, 11:59 AM interesting. thanks for your help. I suppose that makes sense from a balance standpoint, although not so much from a logic standpoint.
Roland Falantyr
09-18-06, 12:00 PM oh and one last thing. what effects and/or spells constitute someone being held or bound? Evards black tentacles or something like that?
Bukowski
09-18-06, 12:18 PM oh and one last thing. what effects and/or spells constitute someone being held or bound? Evards black tentacles or something like that?

Any spell that states the target explicitly becomes paralyzed, helpless, unconscious, sleeping, etc. Evard's black tentacles grapples an opponent, and grappled opponents are not helpless.
Inigo Carmine
09-18-06, 01:07 PM HOWEVER, the DMG does say that the DM can rule that you get no save if something is inescapable. This is supposed to be something really really hard to avoid. Such as being in a piston trap (room is 10x10 square, no exist, 50 ton cube that is 10x10 comes crashing down on you.)

Exactly. The only thing I know about that actually does this in the core rules is when a creature uses a breath weapon against something it is chewing on (grappling with it's ite attack through the snatch feat).
mvincent
09-18-06, 01:31 PM HOWEVER, the DMG does say that the DM can rule that you get no save if something is inescapable. This is supposed to be something really really hard to avoid. Such as being in a piston trap (room is 10x10 square, no exist, 50 ton cube that is 10x10 comes crashing down on you.)Another example from the explosive runes description:
"Anyone next to the runes (close enough to read them) takes the full damage with no saving throw; any other creature within 10 feet of the runes is entitled to a Reflex save for half damage."
Pandaemoni
09-18-06, 01:31 PM interesting. thanks for your help. I suppose that makes sense from a balance standpoint, although not so much from a logic standpoint.
One explanation for why you are allowed the reflex save is because, while you can't "duck" into those spaces where the Fireball is less intense, your unconscious body may happen to already be in a nice safe spot. The fact that they can't dodge and have to hope for dumb luck to save them is why they get the -5 penalty.
Nom
09-18-06, 11:03 PM A dead creature is an object, and unattended nonmagical objects don't get / always fail saving throws.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Roland Falantyr 09-18-06, 10:22 AM	do grappled, stunned, dazed, paralyzed or otherwise hindered from acting status effects deny a character a reflex save for an area of effect spell?
Mort_Q 09-18-06, 10:54 AM	Characters always get a saving throw, as near as I can tell, unless some special power prevents it. Even helpless characters. It's not totally logical, but this is D&D after all. Helpless characters suffer a huge penalty however. Helpless (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#helpless) A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (-5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks gets no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets. Grappled (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple) and pinned (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#pinned) characters are immobile but not helpless. Stunned (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#stunned) characters are not helpless. Dazed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dazed) characters are not helpless. Paralyzed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#paralyzed) characters are helpless, and therefor have an effective DEX of 0, so they have -5 penalty to their reflex save. I hope that helps.
tarkin 09-18-06, 11:09 AM	Merely being helpless is not enough. If you are asleep, you still get a Reflex save, albeit with a Dex of 0. HOWEVER, the DMG does say that the DM can rule that you get no save if something is inescapable. This is supposed to be something really really hard to avoid. Such as being in a piston trap (room is 10x10 square, no exist, 50 ton cube that is 10x10 comes crashing down on you.)
Roland Falantyr 09-18-06, 11:59 AM	interesting. thanks for your help. I suppose that makes sense from a balance standpoint, although not so much from a logic standpoint.
Roland Falantyr 09-18-06, 12:00 PM	oh and one last thing. what effects and/or spells constitute someone being held or bound? Evards black tentacles or something like that?
Bukowski 09-18-06, 12:18 PM	oh and one last thing. what effects and/or spells constitute someone being held or bound? Evards black tentacles or something like that? Any spell that states the target explicitly becomes paralyzed, helpless, unconscious, sleeping, etc. Evard's black tentacles grapples an opponent, and grappled opponents are not helpless.
Inigo Carmine 09-18-06, 01:07 PM	HOWEVER, the DMG does say that the DM can rule that you get no save if something is inescapable. This is supposed to be something really really hard to avoid. Such as being in a piston trap (room is 10x10 square, no exist, 50 ton cube that is 10x10 comes crashing down on you.) Exactly. The only thing I know about that actually does this in the core rules is when a creature uses a breath weapon against something it is chewing on (grappling with it's ite attack through the snatch feat).
mvincent 09-18-06, 01:31 PM	HOWEVER, the DMG does say that the DM can rule that you get no save if something is inescapable. This is supposed to be something really really hard to avoid. Such as being in a piston trap (room is 10x10 square, no exist, 50 ton cube that is 10x10 comes crashing down on you.)Another example from the explosive runes description: "Anyone next to the runes (close enough to read them) takes the full damage with no saving throw; any other creature within 10 feet of the runes is entitled to a Reflex save for half damage."
Pandaemoni 09-18-06, 01:31 PM	interesting. thanks for your help. I suppose that makes sense from a balance standpoint, although not so much from a logic standpoint. One explanation for why you are allowed the reflex save is because, while you can't "duck" into those spaces where the Fireball is less intense, your unconscious body may happen to already be in a nice safe spot. The fact that they can't dodge and have to hope for dumb luck to save them is why they get the -5 penalty.
Nom 09-18-06, 11:03 PM	A dead creature is an object, and unattended nonmagical objects don't get / always fail saving throws.