Any way to expand the Duskblade's spell list ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Any way to expand the Duskblade's spell list ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JiCi
07-27-06, 09:16 PM The duskblade has become my favorite class, but I'm a bit disappointed by the spell list. It's just too short.

Adding spells to a class' spell list requires permission from the DM, but here's my reasoning:

"Unlike the Warmage, which learns every spell per level at once, the Duskblade cannot. The Spell Compendium stated that adding spells to the warmage's list would be unbalanced because of this fact, but adding spells to the duskblade's list seems fine, since it must choose which spells to learn."

The duskblade has spells from both Player's Handbooks, so it would be wiser to leave them and to focus on spells from other books.

I do not have a photographic memory, here are a few spells that would fit with the duskblade:

Spell Compendium
Lesser Orb of [Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire or Sound]
Orb of [Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, Force or Sound]
Ray of flame
KirkBb
07-27-06, 09:34 PM you do realize that they put spells from the spell compendium into the duskblades spell list, right? Wait for another book to come out before you try adding something to the list that was already considered and unused.
Calestin Kethal
07-27-06, 10:36 PM you do realize that they put spells from the spell compendium into the duskblades spell list, right? Wait for another book to come out before you try adding something to the list that was already considered and unused.

The three spells they used from the SC was swift expeditious retreat, swift invisibility, and swift fly. The sidebar on page 24 seems to imply the only reason those spells were included was due to the fact that you can fake it with the PH. After all, they are just swift action versions of spells from the PH.

Personally, if you can convince your GM, go for it. For the duskblade I'm playing in an Eberron game, I was allowed to swap dimension hop for dimension leap (MoE), as my character was a member of House Orien. Your milage may vary. :)
bkobackman
07-28-06, 01:52 AM wel, in my opinion, i wouldn't worry bout those spells, but touch spells that deal damage, because you have the ability to pass them thru your weapon, and are grant bonuses to overcomeing SR better with spells delivered thru melee. besides, im a Dworc (dwarf/orc) duskblade....
stats:
str=22
dex=18
con=19
int=16
wis=17
cha=12
pukunui
07-28-06, 07:42 AM I seem to recall reading somewhere that sorcerors can learn spells not on the sor/wiz spell list (correct me if I'm wrong) ... since duskblades are spontaneous casters as well, it's theoretically possible they could too. Your DM might work it out so that your PC finds an old scroll with some rare spell on it that you can learn and add to your repertoire.
runestar
07-28-06, 07:51 AM I think a duskblade is supposed to have such a limited spell list to balance him out....
risner
07-28-06, 11:14 AM I seem to recall reading somewhere that sorcerors can learn spells not on the sor/wiz spell list (correct me if I'm wrong) ... since duskblades are spontaneous casters as well, it's theoretically possible they could too. Your DM might work it out so that your PC finds an old scroll with some rare spell on it that you can learn and add to your repertoire.

Sorcerers can learn spells via feats that don't exist on the Wiz/Sorc spell list. They can not just "learn" any spell as one of their spells known.

They also can be modified by the DM (change their spell list) like the Witch on DMG p175.

As for the Duskblade, it would be unbalancing to add spells to their list from books they could have had available. If new books come out after PHB II, then maybe looking at adding spells from that book is balanced (it would take thought from the DM).
runestar
07-28-06, 12:57 PM Sorcerers can learn spells via feats that don't exist on the Wiz/Sorc spell list. They can not just "learn" any spell as one of their spells known.
It's the same concept as a wizard researching new spells, your dm must still give the green light and ultimately has the final say on what spells your spellcaster is allowed to access. If your dm is generous enough, there is nothing stopping him from choosing arcane versions of cleric spells and the like. :)

But you will realise that there appears to be a stigma against frivolously allowing a spellcaster to access cross-list spells... ;)
kave99
08-03-06, 12:57 AM try Eclectic Learning from PH II pg 67 that might help it would seam to be balanced :)
DM_Greatness
08-03-06, 05:58 AM The duskblade has become my favorite class

Wow, who would have though that the class that:
- can cast spells in armor
- can canst spells as a free action
- can channel spells into their weapons for extra damage
- has full attack base attack bonus
- has good saving throw progressing in both will and fort saves

Would have ended up as your favorite class. Oh, sorry, I guess that quickened True striked, channel shocking grasps full power attacked great sword hits aren't enough for you, are they?

Noooo, because I mean, there are some enemies that are actually out of the reach of your never missing, shocking sword of insta death eh? I can see where you wouldn't want your character bothered with the effort of walking up to them to kill them huh?

Nope, now you want to have the Orb spells to go right along along with your broken uber melee hits.

I understand you man. I understand that you are a true munchkin at heart, looking for all the power you can get. Hey, after you are done with your power trip, man up, and play a core class.
WayneTheGame
08-03-06, 07:32 AM I understand you man. I understand that you are a true munchkin at heart, looking for all the power you can get. Hey, after you are done with your power trip, man up, and play a core class.

This really makes you look mature. :rolleyes: In the future, please refrain from insulting people who don't agree with your views on how the game should be played. Not everyone wants to play a mediocre, run-of-the-mill core class.

To the OP:
The simplest solution is to ask your DM if you can make use of Extra Spell to learn spells from other lists. Unless your DM is a tyrant and/or rat bastard who wants to control every aspect of the game, he should exert some common sense and allow it on a case-by-case basis. In other words, he should have no problem with you taking spells that fit the flavour of the concept you're trying to make. We always house rule this in my group to allow for more flexibility with characters. Sure, not everything you want may get added in, but you have the option and if you make a good case to the DM he/she may allow it.
runestar
08-03-06, 09:22 AM There are a few feats that add spells to your spell list though. I know there's this exalted feat in PGTF that adds some exalted spells to your spell list. :)
fansy
08-03-06, 09:30 AM I understand you man. I understand that you are a true munchkin at heart, looking for all the power you can get. Hey, after you are done with your power trip, man up, and play a core class.

Next time you crawl out of your cave, or from under your bridge, save us the trouble of reading over your drivel. No one cares about your personal gaming hang-ups.

As for the OP:
Try Extra Spell, as already mentioned. Also, consider spells you might get more use out of, like touch spells or buffing spells. It's personal play style, but the full attack arcane channeling is just too delicious to not use consistently...and you don't get enough quickens to be using them all the time on ranged spells. Adding touch spells has obvious advantages. Adding buffing spells is like amazing icing on the cake.
DM_Greatness
08-03-06, 10:08 AM It's personal play style, but the full attack arcane channeling is just too delicious to not use consistently...

Do you have any concept of game balance what-so-ever?

Of course a munchkin like you is going to think that adding a spell like shocking grasp to each and every attack in your full attack is going to be delicious.

Lord, even Bruce Cordell, author of the often-exclaimed-to-be-overpowered XPH had enough sense to have his Psionic Weapon feat only apply to a single attack.

Oh yeah, and his classes in that book that can get that feat don't come with a full base attack bonus progression.
WayneTheGame
08-03-06, 10:15 AM Of course a munchkin like you is going to think that adding a spell like shocking grasp to each and every attack in your full attack is going to be delicious.

Once again I ask that you refrain from insulting posters who don't think the same way as you do. Not only does it make you look immature, but insulting other posters is certainly against the Code of Conduct. You are entitled to your opinion, but calling anyone who doesn't agree with you a munchkin in such a derogatory fashion is uncalled for.

Fansy: The same applies to your comments.

Regards,
Wayne
fansy
08-03-06, 10:25 AM Do you have any concept of game balance what-so-ever?

Of course a munchkin like you is going to think that adding a spell like shocking grasp to each and every attack in your full attack is going to be delicious.

Lord, even Bruce Cordell, author of the often-exclaimed-to-be-overpowered XPH had enough sense to have his Psionic Weapon feat only apply to a single attack.

Oh yeah, and his classes in that book that can get that feat don't come with a full base attack bonus progression.

*sigh*
Have you ever actually PLAYED a duskblade? Until you have, or actually sit down and think about the class mechanics, please refrain from extolling the "AMAZING OVERPOWEREDNESS OF THE DUSKBLADE, ZOMGNERF!!!!!" I have a concept of game balance. I know how powerful the OTHER classes can be. It is people who complain about the duskblade who does not know game balance, or just have a habit of playing gimped mages, sorcs, clerics, etc.

The duskblade does one thing, and he does it well: damage at melee range. The full-attack channeling comes into it's own when the duskblade has sufficient baddies around him, and is ready for some nasty monster aggro. Sure the duskblade can channel a spell on every attack of his full-attack, but only against a different creature each time. For example, and if you think real hard I bet you can think of more, if you are facing 1 BBEG, you only get 1 shot of a spell in your full attack.

The classes will never be perfectly balanced across all encounters, but who would want that? Each class shines under a different set of circumstances, which should arise in the course of a good game. The class balance some people seem to want would require everyone to play a fighter with the same feats.
risner
08-04-06, 03:31 PM It's the same concept as a wizard researching new spells, your dm must still give the green light and ultimately has the final say on what spells your spellcaster is allowed to access.

Dragon 338 talks about the meaning of that phrase in the Sorcerer info. They go on to say that Sorcerers should not have "free" access, but rather be granted these spells (not currently on Sor/Wiz spell list) via feats or other expensive methods.

Now, any DM is free (as you say) to give them the spell with no strings (and at no cost.) But it isn't what WotC intended when they put that "Unusual Spells" phrase in the PHB.
IbanezNinja
08-04-06, 04:02 PM I understand you man. I understand that you are a true munchkin at heart, looking for all the power you can get. Hey, after you are done with your power trip, man up, and play a core class.

I find this humorous, as core clerics, wizards, sorcerers, and druids are all way more powerful than the duskblade.

Do you have any concept of game balance what-so-ever?

You obviously do not. The duskblade is like the cleric, but not as good. He gets some of the stuff the cleric gets as an arcane caster...but at the cost of a limitied spell list and gimped casting. The duskblade isn't a bad class, but it's nowhere near the core casting classes.

Wow, who would have though that the class that:
- can cast spells in armor
- can canst spells as a free action
- can channel spells into their weapons for extra damage
- has full attack base attack bonus
- has good saving throw progressing in both will and fort saves

None of this is as powerful as full spellcasting.
wonlee76
08-04-06, 04:30 PM Yeah, I think I agree with others who say use the extra spell feat to add spells to the Duskblade list instead of just simply adding spells you "think" fits in with the concept for free. Presuming the authors play tested and experimented with this class, the limited Duskblade spell list is presumably limited because of the class abilities it gets (channeling, quickened spells, etc.).

So expanding that spell list makes the duskblade more powerful. Maybe too powerful depending on how much you expand that list by. But at least with the Extra Spell feat, a DM might feel you're paying a price to add some extra spells to tack onto your duskblade (and depending on your DM's interpretation on whether Extra Spell allows you to pick spells that are not in your normal spell list of course).
Kursk
08-04-06, 06:44 PM I think a duskblade is supposed to have such a limited spell list to balance him out....

True. Screw with it and risk whatever balance there is.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JiCi 07-27-06, 09:16 PM	The duskblade has become my favorite class, but I'm a bit disappointed by the spell list. It's just too short. Adding spells to a class' spell list requires permission from the DM, but here's my reasoning: "Unlike the Warmage, which learns every spell per level at once, the Duskblade cannot. The Spell Compendium stated that adding spells to the warmage's list would be unbalanced because of this fact, but adding spells to the duskblade's list seems fine, since it must choose which spells to learn." The duskblade has spells from both Player's Handbooks, so it would be wiser to leave them and to focus on spells from other books. I do not have a photographic memory, here are a few spells that would fit with the duskblade: Spell Compendium Lesser Orb of [Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire or Sound] Orb of [Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, Force or Sound] Ray of flame
KirkBb 07-27-06, 09:34 PM	you do realize that they put spells from the spell compendium into the duskblades spell list, right? Wait for another book to come out before you try adding something to the list that was already considered and unused.
Calestin Kethal 07-27-06, 10:36 PM	you do realize that they put spells from the spell compendium into the duskblades spell list, right? Wait for another book to come out before you try adding something to the list that was already considered and unused. The three spells they used from the SC was swift expeditious retreat, swift invisibility, and swift fly. The sidebar on page 24 seems to imply the only reason those spells were included was due to the fact that you can fake it with the PH. After all, they are just swift action versions of spells from the PH. Personally, if you can convince your GM, go for it. For the duskblade I'm playing in an Eberron game, I was allowed to swap dimension hop for dimension leap (MoE), as my character was a member of House Orien. Your milage may vary. :)
bkobackman 07-28-06, 01:52 AM	wel, in my opinion, i wouldn't worry bout those spells, but touch spells that deal damage, because you have the ability to pass them thru your weapon, and are grant bonuses to overcomeing SR better with spells delivered thru melee. besides, im a Dworc (dwarf/orc) duskblade.... stats: str=22 dex=18 con=19 int=16 wis=17 cha=12
pukunui 07-28-06, 07:42 AM	I seem to recall reading somewhere that sorcerors can learn spells not on the sor/wiz spell list (correct me if I'm wrong) ... since duskblades are spontaneous casters as well, it's theoretically possible they could too. Your DM might work it out so that your PC finds an old scroll with some rare spell on it that you can learn and add to your repertoire.
runestar 07-28-06, 07:51 AM	I think a duskblade is supposed to have such a limited spell list to balance him out....
risner 07-28-06, 11:14 AM	I seem to recall reading somewhere that sorcerors can learn spells not on the sor/wiz spell list (correct me if I'm wrong) ... since duskblades are spontaneous casters as well, it's theoretically possible they could too. Your DM might work it out so that your PC finds an old scroll with some rare spell on it that you can learn and add to your repertoire. Sorcerers can learn spells via feats that don't exist on the Wiz/Sorc spell list. They can not just "learn" any spell as one of their spells known. They also can be modified by the DM (change their spell list) like the Witch on DMG p175. As for the Duskblade, it would be unbalancing to add spells to their list from books they could have had available. If new books come out after PHB II, then maybe looking at adding spells from that book is balanced (it would take thought from the DM).
runestar 07-28-06, 12:57 PM	Sorcerers can learn spells via feats that don't exist on the Wiz/Sorc spell list. They can not just "learn" any spell as one of their spells known. It's the same concept as a wizard researching new spells, your dm must still give the green light and ultimately has the final say on what spells your spellcaster is allowed to access. If your dm is generous enough, there is nothing stopping him from choosing arcane versions of cleric spells and the like. :) But you will realise that there appears to be a stigma against frivolously allowing a spellcaster to access cross-list spells... ;)
kave99 08-03-06, 12:57 AM	try Eclectic Learning from PH II pg 67 that might help it would seam to be balanced :)
DM_Greatness 08-03-06, 05:58 AM	The duskblade has become my favorite class Wow, who would have though that the class that: - can cast spells in armor - can canst spells as a free action - can channel spells into their weapons for extra damage - has full attack base attack bonus - has good saving throw progressing in both will and fort saves Would have ended up as your favorite class. Oh, sorry, I guess that quickened True striked, channel shocking grasps full power attacked great sword hits aren't enough for you, are they? Noooo, because I mean, there are some enemies that are actually out of the reach of your never missing, shocking sword of insta death eh? I can see where you wouldn't want your character bothered with the effort of walking up to them to kill them huh? Nope, now you want to have the Orb spells to go right along along with your broken uber melee hits. I understand you man. I understand that you are a true munchkin at heart, looking for all the power you can get. Hey, after you are done with your power trip, man up, and play a core class.
WayneTheGame 08-03-06, 07:32 AM	I understand you man. I understand that you are a true munchkin at heart, looking for all the power you can get. Hey, after you are done with your power trip, man up, and play a core class. This really makes you look mature. :rolleyes: In the future, please refrain from insulting people who don't agree with your views on how the game should be played. Not everyone wants to play a mediocre, run-of-the-mill core class. To the OP: The simplest solution is to ask your DM if you can make use of Extra Spell to learn spells from other lists. Unless your DM is a tyrant and/or rat bastard who wants to control every aspect of the game, he should exert some common sense and allow it on a case-by-case basis. In other words, he should have no problem with you taking spells that fit the flavour of the concept you're trying to make. We always house rule this in my group to allow for more flexibility with characters. Sure, not everything you want may get added in, but you have the option and if you make a good case to the DM he/she may allow it.
runestar 08-03-06, 09:22 AM	There are a few feats that add spells to your spell list though. I know there's this exalted feat in PGTF that adds some exalted spells to your spell list. :)
fansy 08-03-06, 09:30 AM	I understand you man. I understand that you are a true munchkin at heart, looking for all the power you can get. Hey, after you are done with your power trip, man up, and play a core class. Next time you crawl out of your cave, or from under your bridge, save us the trouble of reading over your drivel. No one cares about your personal gaming hang-ups. As for the OP: Try Extra Spell, as already mentioned. Also, consider spells you might get more use out of, like touch spells or buffing spells. It's personal play style, but the full attack arcane channeling is just too delicious to not use consistently...and you don't get enough quickens to be using them all the time on ranged spells. Adding touch spells has obvious advantages. Adding buffing spells is like amazing icing on the cake.
DM_Greatness 08-03-06, 10:08 AM	It's personal play style, but the full attack arcane channeling is just too delicious to not use consistently... Do you have any concept of game balance what-so-ever? Of course a munchkin like you is going to think that adding a spell like shocking grasp to each and every attack in your full attack is going to be delicious. Lord, even Bruce Cordell, author of the often-exclaimed-to-be-overpowered XPH had enough sense to have his Psionic Weapon feat only apply to a single attack. Oh yeah, and his classes in that book that can get that feat don't come with a full base attack bonus progression.
WayneTheGame 08-03-06, 10:15 AM	Of course a munchkin like you is going to think that adding a spell like shocking grasp to each and every attack in your full attack is going to be delicious. Once again I ask that you refrain from insulting posters who don't think the same way as you do. Not only does it make you look immature, but insulting other posters is certainly against the Code of Conduct. You are entitled to your opinion, but calling anyone who doesn't agree with you a munchkin in such a derogatory fashion is uncalled for. Fansy: The same applies to your comments. Regards, Wayne
fansy 08-03-06, 10:25 AM	Do you have any concept of game balance what-so-ever? Of course a munchkin like you is going to think that adding a spell like shocking grasp to each and every attack in your full attack is going to be delicious. Lord, even Bruce Cordell, author of the often-exclaimed-to-be-overpowered XPH had enough sense to have his Psionic Weapon feat only apply to a single attack. Oh yeah, and his classes in that book that can get that feat don't come with a full base attack bonus progression. sigh Have you ever actually PLAYED a duskblade? Until you have, or actually sit down and think about the class mechanics, please refrain from extolling the "AMAZING OVERPOWEREDNESS OF THE DUSKBLADE, ZOMGNERF!!!!!" I have a concept of game balance. I know how powerful the OTHER classes can be. It is people who complain about the duskblade who does not know game balance, or just have a habit of playing gimped mages, sorcs, clerics, etc. The duskblade does one thing, and he does it well: damage at melee range. The full-attack channeling comes into it's own when the duskblade has sufficient baddies around him, and is ready for some nasty monster aggro. Sure the duskblade can channel a spell on every attack of his full-attack, but only against a different creature each time. For example, and if you think real hard I bet you can think of more, if you are facing 1 BBEG, you only get 1 shot of a spell in your full attack. The classes will never be perfectly balanced across all encounters, but who would want that? Each class shines under a different set of circumstances, which should arise in the course of a good game. The class balance some people seem to want would require everyone to play a fighter with the same feats.
risner 08-04-06, 03:31 PM	It's the same concept as a wizard researching new spells, your dm must still give the green light and ultimately has the final say on what spells your spellcaster is allowed to access. Dragon 338 talks about the meaning of that phrase in the Sorcerer info. They go on to say that Sorcerers should not have "free" access, but rather be granted these spells (not currently on Sor/Wiz spell list) via feats or other expensive methods. Now, any DM is free (as you say) to give them the spell with no strings (and at no cost.) But it isn't what WotC intended when they put that "Unusual Spells" phrase in the PHB.
IbanezNinja 08-04-06, 04:02 PM	I understand you man. I understand that you are a true munchkin at heart, looking for all the power you can get. Hey, after you are done with your power trip, man up, and play a core class. I find this humorous, as core clerics, wizards, sorcerers, and druids are all way more powerful than the duskblade. Do you have any concept of game balance what-so-ever? You obviously do not. The duskblade is like the cleric, but not as good. He gets some of the stuff the cleric gets as an arcane caster...but at the cost of a limitied spell list and gimped casting. The duskblade isn't a bad class, but it's nowhere near the core casting classes. Wow, who would have though that the class that: - can cast spells in armor - can canst spells as a free action - can channel spells into their weapons for extra damage - has full attack base attack bonus - has good saving throw progressing in both will and fort saves None of this is as powerful as full spellcasting.
wonlee76 08-04-06, 04:30 PM	Yeah, I think I agree with others who say use the extra spell feat to add spells to the Duskblade list instead of just simply adding spells you "think" fits in with the concept for free. Presuming the authors play tested and experimented with this class, the limited Duskblade spell list is presumably limited because of the class abilities it gets (channeling, quickened spells, etc.). So expanding that spell list makes the duskblade more powerful. Maybe too powerful depending on how much you expand that list by. But at least with the Extra Spell feat, a DM might feel you're paying a price to add some extra spells to tack onto your duskblade (and depending on your DM's interpretation on whether Extra Spell allows you to pick spells that are not in your normal spell list of course).
Kursk 08-04-06, 06:44 PM	I think a duskblade is supposed to have such a limited spell list to balance him out.... True. Screw with it and risk whatever balance there is.