any xp cost reduced to 500? [Archive] - Wizards Community

any xp cost reduced to 500? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
arcantos
06-10-06, 04:25 PM say, I was just checking the magic Items included on the complete arcane, and noticed the "thought bottle", among it's various uses it said u can store yur "Experience", in game terms:

at the price of 500xp, you can record your current number of xp(after paying those 500), then at a later time, if your xp has been reduced, you can use the bottle to return to the xp yuo had recorded in it.

If so, then could you store yor xp, create a magic item, then recover. And so, you end up crafting a Holy Avenger at the cost of 500 xp.

Is that as that?
Tempest Stormwind
06-10-06, 05:21 PM Yup.

And worse.

The most elaborate use of it to date was probably the generation of the Word (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=4850618), which is a mathematical Gordian knot more complex than determining progressions in AD&D. (Sadly, the Word is slightly in error regarding calculation of its caster level, so its ability to kill Heironious AND Hextor in the same round with no saving throw is impossible. But this was a problem with the classes it used -- the Thought Bottle made it possible in the first place.)

The thought bottle is so broken that it's the only item explicitly banned from every single CO board contest ever.

I have no idea what the author was thinking when it was written.
Part-Human2
06-10-06, 05:23 PM We've known this on the Character Optimization boards since the book came out -- it's waaay broken. They should have just made a character save point and why you die you could reload your character.

I don't think anyone uses it in builds because no sane DM would allow that feature of the Thought Bottle.
Voldar_Mecorthio
06-10-06, 08:58 PM Yes, use this and also play as Pun-Pun, use the Epic Spell infinite loophole (grant SR 0 to reduce DC by 13), and use Awaken Undead on a Tarasque skeleton so it regains its unbypassable regeneration.

Legal, yet the only way you could ever use it is if you had a squid for a DM. Here, have a squid. :coolcthul
arcantos
06-10-06, 09:27 PM Thanks for the clarification, and sorry, I did not know that it was such an old gossip(should have known, it's the first complete after all...)

Anyway, I may have a squid for a DM, probably If i restrain from trying to be The Word, i can get some use of this woundrous bottle... :cool:
magmer2
06-10-06, 10:29 PM Can't you pull something like that off with Greater restoration and level drain? You drain yourself down a level puting yourself at the half way point, then you make the item, then you restore your self back up.
Seeker of Undeath
06-11-06, 08:44 AM say, I was just checking the magic Items included on the complete arcane, and noticed the "thought bottle", among it's various uses it said u can store yur "Experience", in game terms:

at the price of 500xp, you can record your current number of xp(after paying those 500), then at a later time, if your xp has been reduced, you can use the bottle to return to the xp yuo had recorded in it.

If so, then could you store yor xp, create a magic item, then recover. And so, you end up crafting a Holy Avenger at the cost of 500 xp.

Is that as that?Yes, it's as terrible as they say. My first words after reading the item description were "infinite wishes..."

I immediately banned the item from any and all games. So has any DM I've ever pointed the item out to.
Lafing Cat
06-11-06, 10:40 AM Can't you pull something like that off with Greater restoration and level drain? You drain yourself down a level puting yourself at the half way point, then you make the item, then you restore your self back up.

Yes you can, and its core only. Works with item crafting, wishes, permanent spells, etc.... Also, doesn't carry an experience point cost after the first time, if you do it repeatedly.
jaelis
06-11-06, 12:18 PM No, no, greater restoration only restores levels drained by a force or creature. First, you can't lose a level by spell casting or item creation. Second, the sacrifice of XP in those cases can't reasonably be considered "drain." Third, it's hard to interpret that sacrifice as a "force," much less a creature.

Edit- but perhaps I missed the point... you're saying, go find yourself a spectre and let it touch you, then do the casting/crafting, then cast restoration? That's not obviously wrong, but any reasonable DM would simply rule that the XP you spent voluntarily could not be restored.
Lafing Cat
06-11-06, 02:20 PM Jaelis: Yes, thats how the trick works. You get yourself level drained, craft, then restore. By the rules as written, the craft exp gets restored along with the drained exp.

The fact that any sensible GM would houserule this doesn't change the fact that its how the rules are written. Any sensible GM will stop the thought bottle too, this trick merely shows it isn't a problem unique to that item.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
arcantos 06-10-06, 04:25 PM	say, I was just checking the magic Items included on the complete arcane, and noticed the "thought bottle", among it's various uses it said u can store yur "Experience", in game terms: at the price of 500xp, you can record your current number of xp(after paying those 500), then at a later time, if your xp has been reduced, you can use the bottle to return to the xp yuo had recorded in it. If so, then could you store yor xp, create a magic item, then recover. And so, you end up crafting a Holy Avenger at the cost of 500 xp. Is that as that?
Tempest Stormwind 06-10-06, 05:21 PM	Yup. And worse. The most elaborate use of it to date was probably the generation of the Word (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=4850618), which is a mathematical Gordian knot more complex than determining progressions in AD&D. (Sadly, the Word is slightly in error regarding calculation of its caster level, so its ability to kill Heironious AND Hextor in the same round with no saving throw is impossible. But this was a problem with the classes it used -- the Thought Bottle made it possible in the first place.) The thought bottle is so broken that it's the only item explicitly banned from every single CO board contest ever. I have no idea what the author was thinking when it was written.
Part-Human2 06-10-06, 05:23 PM	We've known this on the Character Optimization boards since the book came out -- it's waaay broken. They should have just made a character save point and why you die you could reload your character. I don't think anyone uses it in builds because no sane DM would allow that feature of the Thought Bottle.
Voldar_Mecorthio 06-10-06, 08:58 PM	Yes, use this and also play as Pun-Pun, use the Epic Spell infinite loophole (grant SR 0 to reduce DC by 13), and use Awaken Undead on a Tarasque skeleton so it regains its unbypassable regeneration. Legal, yet the only way you could ever use it is if you had a squid for a DM. Here, have a squid. :coolcthul
arcantos 06-10-06, 09:27 PM	Thanks for the clarification, and sorry, I did not know that it was such an old gossip(should have known, it's the first complete after all...) Anyway, I may have a squid for a DM, probably If i restrain from trying to be The Word, i can get some use of this woundrous bottle... :cool:
magmer2 06-10-06, 10:29 PM	Can't you pull something like that off with Greater restoration and level drain? You drain yourself down a level puting yourself at the half way point, then you make the item, then you restore your self back up.
Seeker of Undeath 06-11-06, 08:44 AM	say, I was just checking the magic Items included on the complete arcane, and noticed the "thought bottle", among it's various uses it said u can store yur "Experience", in game terms: at the price of 500xp, you can record your current number of xp(after paying those 500), then at a later time, if your xp has been reduced, you can use the bottle to return to the xp yuo had recorded in it. If so, then could you store yor xp, create a magic item, then recover. And so, you end up crafting a Holy Avenger at the cost of 500 xp. Is that as that?Yes, it's as terrible as they say. My first words after reading the item description were "infinite wishes..." I immediately banned the item from any and all games. So has any DM I've ever pointed the item out to.
Lafing Cat 06-11-06, 10:40 AM	Can't you pull something like that off with Greater restoration and level drain? You drain yourself down a level puting yourself at the half way point, then you make the item, then you restore your self back up. Yes you can, and its core only. Works with item crafting, wishes, permanent spells, etc.... Also, doesn't carry an experience point cost after the first time, if you do it repeatedly.
jaelis 06-11-06, 12:18 PM	No, no, greater restoration only restores levels drained by a force or creature. First, you can't lose a level by spell casting or item creation. Second, the sacrifice of XP in those cases can't reasonably be considered "drain." Third, it's hard to interpret that sacrifice as a "force," much less a creature. Edit- but perhaps I missed the point... you're saying, go find yourself a spectre and let it touch you, then do the casting/crafting, then cast restoration? That's not obviously wrong, but any reasonable DM would simply rule that the XP you spent voluntarily could not be restored.
Lafing Cat 06-11-06, 02:20 PM	Jaelis: Yes, thats how the trick works. You get yourself level drained, craft, then restore. By the rules as written, the craft exp gets restored along with the drained exp. The fact that any sensible GM would houserule this doesn't change the fact that its how the rules are written. Any sensible GM will stop the thought bottle too, this trick merely shows it isn't a problem unique to that item.