Anybody Know? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Anybody Know? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mage_Hand
09-20-04, 10:39 PM Does anybody know if you can use Mage Hand (Lv. 0 sorceror/wizard spell) to weild weapons, and if so what do you treat them as.

ex using mage hand a wizard picks up a dagger and directs it towards an orc. Does he use his BAB + dex or does he use str, or int or what???

i would appreciate any help with this and if you can tell me the source material for the awnser that would be nice. my Gm wont let me do it unless i have the source material.
Seeker95
09-20-04, 11:28 PM Yes, somebody knows.
No, you cannot.

The spell allows you to lift 5 pounds and move it. The thumb must apply 15 pounds of pressure to squish an eyeball. No way mage hand is going to swing a weapon hard enough to cause even a hint of damage.
Mage_Hand
09-20-04, 11:39 PM ok so a dagger weighs 1 lb right? and creatures with a really low strength score can still jam it in someone's eye if they have a really high dex right?
then there's weapon focus improved crit, weapon specialization for more damage... the reall question here isn't one of physics its one of magic and as we all know magic has nothing to do with physics. this is a rules question. not one that can be answered by your "common sense" (being sarcastic)
Mage_Hand
09-20-04, 11:41 PM if nothing else i could use it in conjunction with open/close on someone's pants to put a bees nest down there.
Someone
09-21-04, 01:42 PM I think you have to use teleknesis before you can weild a weapon with a spell. And mage hand is decsribed as "lift and move" not "hurl". So I don't think it lets you move something fast enough to do damage.
Heron_Marked_Blade
09-21-04, 02:16 PM ok so a dagger weighs 1 lb right? and creatures with a really low strength score can still jam it in someone's eye if they have a really high dex right?
Mage Hand is not a "creature." "It" cannot wield a weapon; it can lift and move 5 lbs (not very fast either), but it has no STR score or DEX score. So in answer to your original question, "NO." You must use Telekinesis to wield a weapon.

Use common sense.
simen_88
09-21-04, 02:45 PM I second all the replies here. And, btw, you can't use open/close on pants. It only affects the objects listed and containers. Pants are clothes, even though you keep your legs in them.
kSquared
09-21-04, 02:55 PM Although you'd have to admit that using a zero-level cantrip to unbutton the BBEG's trousers and make him trip on them is rather amusing.

BBEG: Die, insolent adventurers!
1st-level wizard: (casts Mage Hand on BBEG's belt buckle)
BBEG: (trips and gives himself a concussion) I'll get you next time, Gadget, if it's the last thing I doooooooooo!
BW0222
09-21-04, 04:14 PM >ok so a dagger weighs 1 lb right? and creatures with a really low strength
>score can still jam it in someone's eye if they have a really high dex right?

Yes, but mage hand can not impart more than 5lbs of force on any object. That is about the same amount of force as putting a non-moving brick on someone's head and expecting it to crush someone to death. It takes far more than 5lbs of force to tear a piece of paper, use a pair of sissors, draw drapes, etc.

(5lbs of force is the same as the force of gravity over a fraction of a second. A brick dropping an inch isn't going to hurt anything larger than an ant, and a dagger dropping a few inches is highly unlikely to even penetrate a piece of paper.)
Mage_Hand
09-21-04, 04:41 PM for open/close it can open a pouch or "similar container" pouches are used to hold sling stones, gold and small objects right? well...i'd say simen_88's pants are a similar container! j/k! thanks for your input guys. i asked because im trying to make a base class that uses mage hand as it's main ability but modifies and changes to weild weapons and shields
simen_88
09-21-04, 05:03 PM I can clearly see a class like that being abused. A better idea would be to make a new spell altogether, maybe level 3, that allows this.
Mage_Hand
09-21-04, 05:38 PM yeah im still working on balance in the class but i will post it here as soon as it is done to see what yall think.
wolfhawk
09-21-04, 05:51 PM I can clearly see a class like that being abused. A better idea would be to make a new spell altogether, maybe level 3, that allows this.
I prefer it as a level 0. That makes the will save (Yup, it's in the spell description) DC 10+caster's controlling stat modifier. It's not all that hard to be in fighting stance either. With your legs that far apart, most pants don't fall down...
Good combat starter though.
If you really want it to be silly, have the open pants cause a person make a reflex save every round till fixed. Say DC 5 (natural 1 auto fails, because it's a save).
simen_88
09-21-04, 06:10 PM Imagine this: rogue/wizard. Combat expertise. 15' reach. I don't need saying anything more, do I?
SlaineFargallows
09-21-04, 07:17 PM The thumb must apply 15 pounds of pressure to squish an eyeball.

Thanks. I feel sick...and... informed. This is one of those facts/quotes I'll never get out of my head no matter how much pressure I put on it.

;)

PS. Please don't tell me how much pressure is needed to squish my head. :D
Heron_Marked_Blade
09-21-04, 09:23 PM PS. Please don't tell me how much pressure is needed to squish my head. :DYou mean 600 PSI? .... Oops.
Seeker95
09-21-04, 09:35 PM Thanks. I feel sick...and... informed. This is one of those facts/quotes I'll never get out of my head no matter how much pressure I put on it.This is one of those things they teach women in rape awareness and safety programs. I was the only male teller at a credit union in college (at the time of the safety program). I was also the one they asked to volunteer to feel the effect of a stun gun. I sat on a desk, they touched my leg for less than a second. My glutius maximum tensed so quick I lifted almost two feet off the desk. Great party trick -- once!
darczero
09-22-04, 12:07 AM Well, it does state that Mage Hand cannot perform any sort of fine manipulation, which wielding a weapon does involve. Transporting a weapon from the ground to a character's hand, as long as the weapon is within the allowable weight of the spell, is perfectly allowable, but (as a few other replies have stated) the Mage Hand spell cannot exert more than 5 pounds of force. The 1st level spell Unseen Servant cannot make attacks, and is otherwise superior to Mage Hand in every way possible; if a higher level spell can't do something when it involves an almost identical effect, then the lower level spell certainly shouldn't be able to.
Also, D&D is a fantasy role-playing game; real world physics, no matter how applicable to the situation, should not be used to try to rationalize spells, except when you need to make a guess at the weight of an object. Otherwise, do whatever is necessary to keep the scientific facts from ruining your fantasy games.
darczero
09-22-04, 12:18 AM Imagine this: rogue/wizard. Combat expertise. 15' reach. I don't need saying anything more, do I?

I seem to recall the books stating somewhere that you did not have reach with a spell that had a range, unless the spell specifically grants Reach. Besides, that's what the Arcane Trickster is all about; look it over.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mage_Hand 09-20-04, 10:39 PM	Does anybody know if you can use Mage Hand (Lv. 0 sorceror/wizard spell) to weild weapons, and if so what do you treat them as. ex using mage hand a wizard picks up a dagger and directs it towards an orc. Does he use his BAB + dex or does he use str, or int or what??? i would appreciate any help with this and if you can tell me the source material for the awnser that would be nice. my Gm wont let me do it unless i have the source material.
Seeker95 09-20-04, 11:28 PM	Yes, somebody knows. No, you cannot. The spell allows you to lift 5 pounds and move it. The thumb must apply 15 pounds of pressure to squish an eyeball. No way mage hand is going to swing a weapon hard enough to cause even a hint of damage.
Mage_Hand 09-20-04, 11:39 PM	ok so a dagger weighs 1 lb right? and creatures with a really low strength score can still jam it in someone's eye if they have a really high dex right? then there's weapon focus improved crit, weapon specialization for more damage... the reall question here isn't one of physics its one of magic and as we all know magic has nothing to do with physics. this is a rules question. not one that can be answered by your "common sense" (being sarcastic)
Mage_Hand 09-20-04, 11:41 PM	if nothing else i could use it in conjunction with open/close on someone's pants to put a bees nest down there.
Someone 09-21-04, 01:42 PM	I think you have to use teleknesis before you can weild a weapon with a spell. And mage hand is decsribed as "lift and move" not "hurl". So I don't think it lets you move something fast enough to do damage.
Heron_Marked_Blade 09-21-04, 02:16 PM	ok so a dagger weighs 1 lb right? and creatures with a really low strength score can still jam it in someone's eye if they have a really high dex right? Mage Hand is not a "creature." "It" cannot wield a weapon; it can lift and move 5 lbs (not very fast either), but it has no STR score or DEX score. So in answer to your original question, "NO." You must use Telekinesis to wield a weapon. Use common sense.
simen_88 09-21-04, 02:45 PM	I second all the replies here. And, btw, you can't use open/close on pants. It only affects the objects listed and containers. Pants are clothes, even though you keep your legs in them.
kSquared 09-21-04, 02:55 PM	Although you'd have to admit that using a zero-level cantrip to unbutton the BBEG's trousers and make him trip on them is rather amusing. BBEG: Die, insolent adventurers! 1st-level wizard: (casts Mage Hand on BBEG's belt buckle) BBEG: (trips and gives himself a concussion) I'll get you next time, Gadget, if it's the last thing I doooooooooo!
BW0222 09-21-04, 04:14 PM	>ok so a dagger weighs 1 lb right? and creatures with a really low strength >score can still jam it in someone's eye if they have a really high dex right? Yes, but mage hand can not impart more than 5lbs of force on any object. That is about the same amount of force as putting a non-moving brick on someone's head and expecting it to crush someone to death. It takes far more than 5lbs of force to tear a piece of paper, use a pair of sissors, draw drapes, etc. (5lbs of force is the same as the force of gravity over a fraction of a second. A brick dropping an inch isn't going to hurt anything larger than an ant, and a dagger dropping a few inches is highly unlikely to even penetrate a piece of paper.)
Mage_Hand 09-21-04, 04:41 PM	for open/close it can open a pouch or "similar container" pouches are used to hold sling stones, gold and small objects right? well...i'd say simen_88's pants are a similar container! j/k! thanks for your input guys. i asked because im trying to make a base class that uses mage hand as it's main ability but modifies and changes to weild weapons and shields
simen_88 09-21-04, 05:03 PM	I can clearly see a class like that being abused. A better idea would be to make a new spell altogether, maybe level 3, that allows this.
Mage_Hand 09-21-04, 05:38 PM	yeah im still working on balance in the class but i will post it here as soon as it is done to see what yall think.
wolfhawk 09-21-04, 05:51 PM	I can clearly see a class like that being abused. A better idea would be to make a new spell altogether, maybe level 3, that allows this. I prefer it as a level 0. That makes the will save (Yup, it's in the spell description) DC 10+caster's controlling stat modifier. It's not all that hard to be in fighting stance either. With your legs that far apart, most pants don't fall down... Good combat starter though. If you really want it to be silly, have the open pants cause a person make a reflex save every round till fixed. Say DC 5 (natural 1 auto fails, because it's a save).
simen_88 09-21-04, 06:10 PM	Imagine this: rogue/wizard. Combat expertise. 15' reach. I don't need saying anything more, do I?
SlaineFargallows 09-21-04, 07:17 PM	The thumb must apply 15 pounds of pressure to squish an eyeball. Thanks. I feel sick...and... informed. This is one of those facts/quotes I'll never get out of my head no matter how much pressure I put on it. ;) PS. Please don't tell me how much pressure is needed to squish my head. :D
Heron_Marked_Blade 09-21-04, 09:23 PM	PS. Please don't tell me how much pressure is needed to squish my head. :DYou mean 600 PSI? .... Oops.
Seeker95 09-21-04, 09:35 PM	Thanks. I feel sick...and... informed. This is one of those facts/quotes I'll never get out of my head no matter how much pressure I put on it.This is one of those things they teach women in rape awareness and safety programs. I was the only male teller at a credit union in college (at the time of the safety program). I was also the one they asked to volunteer to feel the effect of a stun gun. I sat on a desk, they touched my leg for less than a second. My glutius maximum tensed so quick I lifted almost two feet off the desk. Great party trick -- once!
darczero 09-22-04, 12:07 AM	Well, it does state that Mage Hand cannot perform any sort of fine manipulation, which wielding a weapon does involve. Transporting a weapon from the ground to a character's hand, as long as the weapon is within the allowable weight of the spell, is perfectly allowable, but (as a few other replies have stated) the Mage Hand spell cannot exert more than 5 pounds of force. The 1st level spell Unseen Servant cannot make attacks, and is otherwise superior to Mage Hand in every way possible; if a higher level spell can't do something when it involves an almost identical effect, then the lower level spell certainly shouldn't be able to. Also, D&D is a fantasy role-playing game; real world physics, no matter how applicable to the situation, should not be used to try to rationalize spells, except when you need to make a guess at the weight of an object. Otherwise, do whatever is necessary to keep the scientific facts from ruining your fantasy games.
darczero 09-22-04, 12:18 AM	Imagine this: rogue/wizard. Combat expertise. 15' reach. I don't need saying anything more, do I? I seem to recall the books stating somewhere that you did not have reach with a spell that had a range, unless the spell specifically grants Reach. Besides, that's what the Arcane Trickster is all about; look it over.