Post/Author/DateTime	Post
hennethor 10-20-03, 06:13 AM	I'm planning a little mind game for my players. Their foe is disturbing their dreams for some time now promising he'll claim their souls if they do not recognize him for their master. The fight will include only spells. To get away they'll have to counter all his spells with counterspells. My problem is that I don't know what are the counterspells for most of the spells in PHB. :confused: If someone could tell me where to learn about counterspells or where can I find a list of counterspells I'd be VERY grateful. Thanks!
wdarkk 10-20-03, 07:04 AM	Counterspells are: 1. The same spell. 2. (Greater) Dispel Magic 3. Anything listed in the spell's description as a counter. If they have Improved Counterspell, add: 4. Any spell of the same school of an equal or higher level.
Luminous Crayon 10-20-03, 12:39 PM	I believe there's a section in chapter 10 of the PHB. The spell description for Dispel Magic also has a little info on the subject. Anyway, here's a quick and dirty description of how it's done. 1.) Ready an action to counterspell. Basically, on your turn, you get your move action as normal, and your standard action is "saved" to attempt to counter the enemy's magic. "I ready an action to counter his spell" is how it's done. 2.) When it's your opponent's turn, assuming he did actually cast a spell instead of doing something different, you have to identify it as it's being cast. This takes a spellcraft check, with a DC of (15 + the spell's level.) Remember that specialist wizards get +2 to their checks to identify spells from their specialist school, and -5 to identify spells from their forbidden schools. For this example, let's say the enemy spellcaster is a 5th level sorceror who has begun to cast Darkness. The player attempting to counter the spell is a 5th level cleric, who has succeeded at the DC 17 spellcraft check, and therefore knows what the enemy is casting. Just an example. 3.) If you've identified the spell successfully, and you have an identical spell prepared, you can immediately expend it, automatically countering the target spell. If our cleric happens to have Darkness prepared, he can use up that casting, automatically countering the sorceror's Darkness. For this example, let us assume that our cleric is out of luck, and does not have Darkness prepared today. 4.) If you've identified the spell successfully but can't counter it with an identical spell, sometimes you can use an opposite spell. For example, Daylight counters any darkness spell of the same or lower level, so it can counter Darkness. If the cleric in our example has Daylight prepared, he can use up that casting, automatically countering the sorceror's Darkness. Note that not all spells have "opposite" spells that can also be used to counter them. Those that do list the additional counter spell in their spell descriptions. Our example cleric, woefully, doesn't have Daylight prepared either. 5.) No matter whether you've identified a spell or not, you can attempt to use Dispel Magic to counter a spell. This doesn't always work, however, so it's a last resort, to be used only when you fail the Spellcraft check to identify the spell you want to counter, or when (like our cleric) you don't have the appropriate spell prepared. When countering a spell with Dispel Magic, you have to expend the prepared Dispel Magic as normal, but if you fail a dispel check, you have only succeeded at wasting a casting of Dispel Magic. The Dispel Check is (1d20 + your caster level), against a DC of (11 + the target spell's caster level.) Dispel Magic lets you add up to 10 of your caster levels to the d20 roll, while Greater Dispel Magic lets you add up to 20. Our example cleric has Dispel Magic prepared, and lets the counterspell fly right as his enemy sorceror brings the casting of Darkness to a conclusion (this entire process takes only moments of in-game time.) The caster level check is against a DC of 16, since the sorceror is a fifth level caster. Our cleric rolls a natural 12 on the d20 and adds five (for his own caster level), making a total of 17, barely beating the DC and countering his opponent's Darkness. The fight will include only spells. To get away they'll have to counter all his spells with counterspells. A question: how do you know you can arrange this? Unless the PCs enemy is somehow immune to all nonmagical attack, what's to stop anyone from running up and smacking him with a battleaxe? Unless all your PCs are spellcasters, it's going to be hard to ensure that the fight will be only spells, unless of course you railroad the heck out of the encounter. Why will they be required to counter all the spells to escape? What if they simply make their saves, then run away or defeat your NPC? What if the PC wizard wins initiative and teleports the entire group someplace else? I can't imagine a spell/counterspell only fight being possible to engineer, unless the players go along with your plan. Rule no 1 of DMing: The players never go along with your plan.
SureFoot 10-20-03, 01:37 PM	I'd like to point out that sometimes magic items can be used to counterspell. * spell completion items, like scrolls, can be used exactly like spells when counterspelling. (spell trigger items, such as wands, cannot) * some specific items can counter certain (or certain types) of spells. For example, a rod of fire quenching can counter fire spells under certain circumstances. For the record, I agree with Luminous Crayon's questions--how are you going to "arrange" for a purely magical combat--even further, a purely counterspell combat?!?!
Wizard 10-20-03, 02:14 PM	Don't forget rings of counterspelling and rods of absorption.
hennethor 10-20-03, 04:37 PM	Thanks for help, all of you :D Luminous Crayon, you really took your time to explain it completely so one BIG thanks to you. You and SureFoot asked a good question about the whole idea for the fight. I didn't explain the whole situation so, now it does sound pretty dumb. But here's the thing. The foe is quite powerful force, something of a dark lord and stuff. Now, they messed with some things and drew his attention to them (I didn't lead them to it, they did it on their own - the rule No1 of DMing as Luminous Crayon said it) The 'dark lord' has his eye on them and tries to affect their destiny. In this stage he does it through their dreams and although he cannot harm them seriously, yet, they often wake up with actual wounds that were done to them while confronting him in dreams. So now, they seek answers. who is he really, and how he's able to do that. And does the things he says about taking their souls are really possible. Right now, they're going to another plane to find the answers and they're walking into one of his traps. I don't want to stop it or in any way affect their decisions. So, the spell fight I had in mind will happen in their minds while travelling to the other plane because he's got more power there than on Prime. The fight will not be the same for all of them, not even the wizards will go through the same fight, but I needed help for the spell fight. Others will fight with other things, closely connected to their class, and none of them will fight melee but sort of a mind battle. That's it. Thanks again. If you're in the mood I'd be glad to hear everybody's oppinion about it. Don't hesitate to say it's garbage if you think it is, I won't mind :D I don't have much experience as a DM. I play Ad&d for 5 years and I've been DM for only year and a half, so I'm aware I got a lot to learn.
Luminous Crayon 10-20-03, 08:44 PM	So the spell fight is unique because it's a.) "all in their heads" and b.) occurring as they cross from one plane to another? That could work interestingly... Edit: note that your players might be caught unprepared if they suddenly find themselves in a spell fight without multiple castings of Dispel Magic available. Be careful not to set them up with a challenge they can't possibly succeed at, especially since there seems to be no other way around this situation. If all else fails, you can have your enemy attack them using only spells they happen to have prepared and can counter with, but that runs the risk of seeming very contrived.
hennethor 10-21-03, 08:27 AM	Thanks for the smart remark, Crayon. I didn't figure out completely how to manage that spell fight thing until your last post. Maybe I could change the way players will comprehend the fight, and instead of actually casting the spells, just explain them what they see around and what the 'dark lord' is doing. Give them a detailed insight on the situation. Explain them how does his casting looks like, and what happens afterwards. And then just ask them what they do? the fact it's all in their head allows me to maybe slow down things a little bit, to give them time to think about it. Maybe that way it'll all seem more apropriate, since it's happening in the middle of nowhere and it's mind battle. This way, there's no spell level limits, or a limit to the number of spell they can cast. Of course, I'd have to give them something to hold on, otherwise, they could totally miss the point of the fight, but I think it could work. If nothing else, it will be different than the usual spell fight, and if they get the point and start thinking correctly(I know... the 1st rule...) I think it'll be intense. I'd really like to hear your and everybody else's oppinion on this.
Luminous Crayon 10-21-03, 12:40 PM	Well, here's the thing. You want your PCs not to be able to defeat the dark lord in this encounter, I assume. They are going to have to escape in some way, and to do so, they are going to have to hold off his magic assault for a while. When you tell your spellcaster "You see the dark lord in front of you in this strangely shifting landscape, clad in full battle gear, etc.", that player's first response is not going to be to counter the enemy's spells. Many players don't use counterspells because they're unclear on the mechanic, and even if they know how it works, it's not an effective tactic for a one on one mage fight. This is because you're giving up your action to try and ensure your opponent does the same, but it doesn't always work; if you have to counter with dispel magic and fail your dispel check, you've wasted a turn and a spell slot doing nothing constructive. Instead, a player will likely buff in some way, or unleash their most powerful prepared spell at the enemy. Already the battle isn't going the way you hoped it would. How do you fix it? I have a couple of suggestions... First, your PCs shouldn't be able to win... yet. Presumably they're going to ba allowed a chance to defeat the Dark Lord later, but for now, the battle should be a stalemate at best. Give the poor BBEG some spell resistance, possibly a little DR. He can come to the party already buffed (which makes sense, since he's apparently ambushing them in the boundary between planes.) Your spellcaster's magic slides off him like water on a raincoat, so they are forced to try another tactic. Second, your BBEG isn't allowed to kill them outright. Ideally, he shouldn't kill them at all in this fight, since it's not fair to deny the PCs any chance to win, then snipe at them like fish in a bucket. Instead, he should toy with them, humiliate them, make them hate him (which makes his eventual defeat so much more satisfying for your players, assuming they ever get that far.) Your BBEG has Greater Arcane Sight active at the start of the fight; he casts a Targeted Dispel Magic on any PCs who are buffed, tearing their wards like paper armor. His next few rounds are spent with Targeted Dispels aimed at their most powerful magic items; he's chuckling with glee as he renders their protection temporarily useless. By this time, your spellcasters should have figured out that their usual tactics aren't working, and should be ready to try different strategies. From here, you may choose to have the Dark Lord attempt something more powerful, something that takes a round or more to cast. Describe the way energy is seeping out of the air and congealing into a cold, black orb of smoky power between the Dark Lord's hands. Tell your PCs about the way the air ripples with power, like the hot air over asphalt on a sweltering summer's day. They may be sufficiently worried about this mysterious, powerful spell that they'll attempt to counter it. Alternately, a spell like Magic Jar could make for an excellent all-in-the-mind battle, if your PCs have good Will saves. Against a lone PC, a failed save is catastrophic, but if you run this encounter against the entire party, an unpossed spellcaster can end the spell with a successful Dispel Magic. The Dark Lord's repeated attempts to possess a PC give a suspenseful feel or terror to the unusual fight. Just make sure to have him use Improved Invisibility first, or they'll be able to simply coup-de-drace his comatose body as he attempts his mental assaults. Either way, you need to give the fight some kind of set outlet, or end point. This maks it easier to explain a fight ending without one side or the other "winning", and gives the PCs an excuse to take defensive measures and stall for time, because they know they can escape without doing any damage as long as they can defend themselves for a set time. Maybe they're vulnerable to this attack only while traveling between planes, and the fight can last only a little while (perhaps five rounds, or 30 seconds) until they arrive safely on the destination plane. Make sure someone in the group knows this (by way of a successful Spellcraft, Knowledge: The Planes or Knowledge: Arcana check, perhaps), and they'll be more likely to use defensive tactics and stall for time, the way you want them to. Good luck, and have fun with the encounter. I want to hear all about it when it's done. Naturally, if you have more questions in the meantime, I'm all ears.
AA_Metatron 10-22-03, 09:09 AM	I believe dispel magic only works on non-instantaneous spells with duration like darkness, summon fog etc. but not on spells like fireball or magic missile. The effect does not take place long enough for the dispel to take place. I think this is in the players handbook...
wdarkk 10-22-03, 09:30 AM	That's what you can dispell, not what you can counter.
Luminous Crayon 10-22-03, 01:19 PM	Originally posted by AA_Metatron I believe dispel magic only works on non-instantaneous spells with duration like darkness, summon fog etc. but not on spells like fireball or magic missile. The effect does not take place long enough for the dispel to take place. I think this is in the players handbook... You can't dispel instantaneous spells that have already been cast, but you can ready an action to counter them as they are being cast, the same way you can ready an action to counter any spell.