Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Secrets Untold 01-11-06, 05:17 PM	Fireball allows a reflew save for half or a reflex save with evasion to completely avoid it. Wow, special. But how do you make a REFLEX save to avoid a 20-foot wide blast that you're in the center of? You can't really dodge it, can you?
Seeker95 01-11-06, 05:26 PM	Yeah. And how does someone magically create a burst of fire 400+ feet away from them in the first place?
Vaalingrade Ashland 01-11-06, 05:33 PM	Yeah. And how does someone magically create a burst of fire 400+ feet away from them in the first place? Light rocket, living on a world with easily violated physics like the Discworld, little known Force powers...
Secrets Untold 01-11-06, 05:40 PM	To answer your question, Seeker, may I point out the fact that this is MAGIC!!! Not physics, but MAGIC!!! Also, it's a bad idea to cast 400ft away, because you might aly torch a king with bad will saves. I said I couldn't see, but they won't let me live it down.:weep:
Inigo Carmine 01-11-06, 06:19 PM	But how do you make a REFLEX save to avoid a 20-foot wide blast that you're in the center of? You can't really dodge it, can you? Whoever said you were avoiding it? A reflex save allows you to take less damage.
runestar 01-11-06, 08:30 PM	Reflex saves do not necessarily mean dodging. It could simply mean somehow seeking cover, or performing some super evasive maneourve that lets you avoid the damage. Feel free to designate your own moves.
Seeker95 01-11-06, 09:07 PM	Wow. UntoldSecrets took my reply seriously, responded in all seriousness, yet made no connection between the nature of my question and his original question. :rolleyes:
Aurotuli 01-11-06, 09:58 PM	I recall a situation like this years ago (under my second DM, as a matter of fact). The target was a Monk with Evasion. When he made his reflex save, the DM described it as the monk making a high standing flip (ie: jumps up barely high enough to evade the worst of it, flips, and falls back down onto his feet). He didn't require a jump check, though, out of the feel that the successful reflex save was enough (and that requiring a Jump check would slow / complicate the situation too much if/when it occurred again).
CryoSilver 01-11-06, 10:02 PM	Well, being a bit of a pyro on the weekends, I feel confident in telling you that a burst of flame is not uniform in heat, and that even without leaving the area of the flame, you can protect yourself a bit. The reflex save might represent: turning your face away from the flame, covering exposed flesh with a heavy cloak/article of clothing, ducking, hiding behind a rock/pillar/outcropping, or just being plain lucky enough to be in an area of lesser heat.
Vaalingrade Ashland 01-11-06, 10:30 PM	Wow. UntoldSecrets took my reply seriously, responded in all seriousness, yet made no connection between the nature of my question and his original question. :rolleyes: Some people just don't have proper respect for proper baiting these days. :nonono:
Malruhn 01-11-06, 10:39 PM	How can he make a reflex save for no damage? The same way a guy standing next to a hand-grenade can escape unscathed and a guy standing twenty feet away ends up dead. It is called "realism". I know this is a fantasy game, but even in an explosion of fire, there are pockets of air that are untouched... ;)
JL3712 01-11-06, 11:29 PM	Isn't there a rule that allows the DM to negate a save when none would be possible. Such as a bound person in the area of the effect, loses the ability to make a save, or worse and unconscious person who has the bead of the fireball place in their mouth before it goes boom. How, even in magical laws, could said person be afforded a save?
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 01-11-06, 11:48 PM	Well, regarding the fireball thing, I can whip my hand through a bonfire and not even feel heat. It's the same principle.
Bopple 01-12-06, 12:48 AM	You will know why, after calculating your own hit points.
smrtgmp 01-12-06, 12:59 AM	Rogues with evasion? Simple. They phase out of existance momentarily to avoid any negative effects. ;)
IceFractal 01-12-06, 05:17 AM	I'm pretty sure that if you're unable to move (helpless) then you automatically fail Reflex saves.
smrtgmp 01-12-06, 05:31 AM	While that would make perfect sence, thats actually not how it works. Instead, you make a reflex save, but your dexterity is treated as 0, meaning your dex mod goes from whatever it would normally be to -5.
Egres 01-12-06, 06:43 AM	To answer your question, Seeker, may I point out the fact that this is MAGIC!!! Not physics, but MAGIC!!! Also, it's a bad idea to cast 400ft away, because you might aly torch a king with bad will saves. I said I couldn't see, but they won't let me live it down.:weep: From the SRD: Evasion (Ex): Extraordinary Abilities These abilities cannot be disrupted in combat, as spells can, and they generally do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities. They are not subject to dispelling, and they function normally in an antimagic field. Indeed, extraordinary abilities do not qualify as magical, though they may break the laws of physics.
runestar 01-12-06, 06:54 AM	While that would make perfect sence, thats actually not how it works. Instead, you make a reflex save, but your dexterity is treated as 0, meaning your dex mod goes from whatever it would normally be to -5. So the sad thing is with a high enough reflex save, a mage can be flinging fireballs at a rogue bound helplessly on the ground and still miss spectularly.... :weep: Though its really not that common, but the notion is still boggling.
Seeker of Undeath 01-12-06, 06:55 AM	So the sad thing is with a high enough reflex save, a mage can be flinging fireballs at a rogue bound helplessly on the ground and still miss spectularly.... :weep: Though its really not that common, but the notion is still boggling.A bound, helpless rogue wouldn't get a reflex save.
Shatteredtower 01-12-06, 08:07 AM	A bound, helpless rogue wouldn't get a reflex save.By the rules, yes, he would. Here's the PHB glossary entry for the helpless condition: "Paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0." That's it. Nowhere in the rules is anything said about helpless characters being denied Reflex saving throws -- or any other kind of saving throw, for that matter. The only creatures that don't get a Reflex save are those with an entry of "--" for Dexterity (MM, pg 312). Actually, that's not quite accurate: they automatically fail Reflex saves. When you look at it that way, you might see why a helpless creature doesn't lose the right to the Reflex save any more than they lose the right to Will or Fortitude saves.
Lord Schpungus 01-12-06, 08:11 AM	So wait. A creature with Improved Evasion and a Dexterity of '--' automatically takes half damage? Sweet! I need to find such a creature.
Egres 01-12-06, 09:09 AM	So wait. A creature with Improved Evasion and a Dexterity of '--' automatically takes half damage? Sweet! I need to find such a creature. Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.
Lafing Cat 01-12-06, 11:48 AM	A) He's talking about a monster, not a rogue. B) Having a non-ability in dexterity doesn't make you helpless
Seeker95 01-12-06, 02:18 PM	A) He's talking about a monster, not a rogue. B) Having a non-ability in dexterity doesn't make you helpless A. Monsters with evasion would suffer the same obstructions as rogues with evasion. B. But being bound would.
mvincent 01-12-06, 03:07 PM	From the 3.5 FAQ: "A character can attempt a Reflex save anytime she is subjected to an effect that allows a Reflex save. A Reflex save usually involves some dodging, but a Reflex save does not depend completely on a character’s ability to move around. It also can depend on luck, variations in the effect that makes the save necessary in the first place, and a host of other miraculous factors that keep heroic characters in the D&D game from meeting an untimely fate." "If you’re helpless, your Dexterity score is effectively 0. You still can make Reflex saves, but your Dexterity modifier is –5. You’re helpless whenever you are paralyzed, unconscious, or asleep." how do you make a REFLEX save to avoid a 20-foot wide blast that you're in the center of?Stop, drop and roll-play :rofl:
tarkin 01-12-06, 03:44 PM	The basic problem is that you are wrong about what a fireball is. You seem to think it is a solid expanding ball of heat, all of which is at a set temperature capable of doing 5d6 -> 10d6 of damage. No. That is wrong. fireball is an explosion. It shoots out streams of heat with HUGE FREAKING GAPS in it, just like any normal explosion. If you get hit by a hot stream head on, you take full damage. If you get avoid most of it, just getting 'winged', you take 1/2 damage. If you are extra good at avoiding reflex stuff (I.E. you have evasion), then if you made your save you have twisted your body so that NONE of the heat hit you. With Improved Evasion, even if you fail your save to totally negate the damage, you still managed to only get 'winged'.
RaspK FOG 01-12-06, 06:40 PM	From the 3.5 FAQ: "A character can attempt a Reflex save anytime she is subjected to an effect that allows a Reflex save. A Reflex save usually involves some dodging, but a Reflex save does not depend completely on a character’s ability to move around. It also can depend on luck, variations in the effect that makes the save necessary in the first place, and a host of other miraculous factors that keep heroic characters in the D&D game from meeting an untimely fate." "If you’re helpless, your Dexterity score is effectively 0. You still can make Reflex saves, but your Dexterity modifier is –5. You’re helpless whenever you are paralyzed, unconscious, or asleep." That means we have another error in the FAQ: Ability Score Loss Some attacks reduce the opponent’s score in one or more abilities. This loss can be temporary (ability damage) or permanent (ability drain). While any loss is debilitating, losing all points in an ability score can be devastating. Strength 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He lies helpless on the ground. Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless. Constitution 0 means that the character is dead. Intelligence 0 means that the character cannot think and is unconscious in a coma-like stupor, helpless. Wisdom 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a deep sleep filled with nightmares, helpless. Charisma 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a catatonic, coma-like stupor, helpless. Dexterity Any creature that can move has at least 1 point of Dexterity. A creature with no Dexterity score can’t move. If it can perform actions (such as casting spells), it applies its Intelligence modifier to initiative checks instead of a Dexterity modifier. The creature automatically fails Reflex saves and Dexterity checks. As you can see, a helpless rogue cannot get the benefits of evasion, and a Dexterity score of 0 or having the score as a nonability is helpless or fails Reflex saves respectively... Draw your conclusions. ;)
mvincent 01-12-06, 06:59 PM	a Dexterity score of 0 or having the score as a nonability is helpless or fails Reflex saves respectively... Draw your conclusions. ;)The quote you used is from the "Nonabilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/naturalSpecialAbilities.htm)" section of the SRD. That section describes creatures that don't start with certain abilities. It is not applicable to creatures that do start with abilities, but had them drained down to zero. Example: a PC drained of Charisma is not an object, and still has a wisdom score, even though this section says: "Anything with no Charisma score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Charisma score also has no Wisdom score." The FAQ is correct.
Morotis 01-12-06, 07:39 PM	It's simple, a reflex save makes it so that your body changes into whatever is hitting it, Evasion and Improved Evasion simply make you more able to change your body into the stuff around it, either that or A reflex save causes large holes to form in your body allowing the fire to pass through you...
Lord Schpungus 01-12-06, 08:34 PM	I have to concur. Ability = 0 is far, far different than Ability = '--'.
Shatteredtower 01-13-06, 02:43 AM	As you can see, a helpless rogue cannot get the benefits of evasion...This is true. However, if a Dexterity of 0 meant that the character was not entitled to a Reflex save, there would be no need to note that "A helpless monk (such as one who is unconscious or paralyzed) does not gain the benefit of evasion. Why? Because if you automatically fail your Reflex saves, there is no benefit from evasion anyway. It would be a redundant observation at best. ...and a Dexterity score of 0 or having the score as a nonability is helpless...No. A creature with Dexterity as a nonability is not helpless. It fails Reflex saves automatically, but it is not helpless for the purpose of a coup de grace, odd as that might seem, since it is still capable of performing actions.
Vaalingrade Ashland 01-13-06, 02:49 AM	As far as I can recall, only the shrieker has Dex as a non-ability. If you ever encounter a shrieker rogue or monk, you have more problems than wheither or not fireballing it's arse is a good idea.
Shatteredtower 01-13-06, 03:46 AM	I'll bite. What could a 20th level ghost monk with the malevolence ability (and no other special attack forms normally associated with ghosts) accomplish while in possession of a shrieker's body? Edit: Found one more MM entry for a creature with Dexterity as a nonability: a formian queen, which has both spell-like and spellcasting abilities.
RaspK FOG 01-13-06, 11:14 AM	I find amazing how people sometimes accidentally fail to grasp quoting and simple syntax structures... mvincent I made 3 quotes: one had the FAQ entry, the last one truly refered to Dexterity as a nonability, and the 2nd quote mentioned what happens when an ability drops to zero (0); aside from Constitution, which, if dropped to 0, leaves you quite dead, all else leave you helpless if dropped to 0. ;) Shatteredtower I specifically chose to write the word "respectively" to signify that creatures with a Dexterity score of 0 points is helpless, while one with Dexterity as a nonability automatically fails Reflex saves... Maybe you should reread my earlier post to see what I mean. ;)
mvincent 01-13-06, 11:38 AM	I find amazing how people sometimes accidentally fail to grasp quoting and simple syntax structures...So there is no confusion: what exactly did you mean when you said: "we have another error in the FAQ"?
Archtyrant Terevoth 01-13-06, 11:46 AM	This is true. However, if a Dexterity of 0 meant that the character was not entitled to a Reflex save, there would be no need to note that "A helpless monk (such as one who is unconscious or paralyzed) does not gain the benefit of evasion. Actually, in one of the stupidest decisions to date, the designers went out and said that helpless creatures do get reflex saves. Apparently everyone gets a reflex save for whatever reason, and I'd assume that'd carry over to creatures with dex as a nonability, since both are effectively motionless. Personally in my games, I houserule that helpless or otherwise motionless creatures don't get a reflex save. To rule otherwise is IMO stupid, although completely official. How can someone have reflexes or the ability to dodge when they can't even move?
mvincent 01-13-06, 12:06 PM	To rule otherwise is IMO stupidYou are quickly gaining credibility as an expert on that topic. How can someone have reflexes or the ability to dodge when they can't even move?As stated previously, from the 3.5 FAQ: "A Reflex save usually involves some dodging, but a Reflex save does not depend completely on a character’s ability to move around. It also can depend on luck, variations in the effect that makes the save necessary in the first place, and a host of other miraculous factors that keep heroic characters in the D&D game from meeting an untimely fate."
RaspK FOG 01-14-06, 04:46 AM	Hmm... My mistake about the FAQ, then; I seem to have made a logical leap, and find myself at the worst of predicaments: having stumbled over my own words and accused others of having done so incorrectly. :weep: Please, accept my apologies on the matter.
Seeker95 01-14-06, 11:07 AM	RaspK, such admissions are truly rare on these Boards. We think all the more highly of you as a result. :tiphat:
mvincent 01-14-06, 12:09 PM	RaspK, such admissions are truly rare on these Boards. We think all the more highly of you as a result. :tiphat:Ditto. Bravo.