Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Anouilh Lyn 11-22-04, 10:51 PM	Damage reduction cold iron.... the ability to use any magic item and make any magic item (if they take the feats anyway)... multiple spell like abilities usable AT WILL?... and an infinate use, upgradable, ray attack? o_O arn't these kinda things reserved for races with level adjustments in the double digits? just wanna know what everyone else thinks of this class. it seems to me that they can easily outshine the archer or fighter at mid level because of the high damage dealing ranged touch attack they can use at will (hell, even archers have a limited amount of ammo), then with the resources match up agienst the wizards, sorcerers, and clerics at higher levels. Their at will spell like abilities and decent selection invocations allows them to outshine the average wizard and sorcerer just in stamina. when the normal casters run out of attack and defense spells the warlocks still going strong, their eldritch blast doesn't even have a base energy source, making monsters with resistance no contest, the SR of enemies and AoO from melee combatants can easily be taken away with supernatural transformation (turning the eldritch blast into a supernatural ability instead of a spell like ability), its a ranged touch attack, meaning it ignores any armor or natural armor, and of course.... it never runs out... >,< so again, while the mage can blast away harder, they'll run out of juice unless either the encounters are real low, or they use their powers incredibly wisely and sparingly. sure... wizards and sorcerers can use wands and whatnot to increase their amount of spellpower, but at 12th level the warlock can do the same thing, and they have access to any spell..... ANY SPELL.... not to mention with their use magic device being at +15 or so assuming the warlock has a cha of 10... in which case i feel a bit sorry for said warlock. with +15 they can make up to 10th level spells for their items, and assuming the warlock does have a high enough charisma at that point, low to mid level divine spells as well. anyway, thats enough bait for now i suppose. flame, discuss, however you wish to work this folks ;)
Heron_Marked_Blade 11-22-04, 10:58 PM	You'll want to post this in the Classes forum. I haven't played the Warlock yet. Although it may seem overpowered at first, things that seem too good to be true are often revealed to be exactly that when you use them. Remember when the Mystic Theurge was thought to be broken? Or Psionic classes? I'll reserve judgment on this one.
smrtgmp 11-22-04, 11:32 PM	Its hardly overpowered. Being able to do 9d6 points of damage per round at 20th level isnt very impressive.
Edymnion 11-22-04, 11:52 PM	Remember when the Mystic Theurge was thought to be broken?I still consider it broken, personally, but thats neither here nor there. I still question why a spellcaster should get damage reduction. If you're casting spells, you're not supposed to be on the front line. But, thats power creep for ya. And just for a bit of comparison, compare the Warlock to the Innate Spell feat, which was actually reprinted in CA. Innate Spell eats up several prereq feats, makes you permanently sacrifice a 9th level spell slot, and gives you... a first level spell as a spell-like ability. So, what we get in the Warlock is essentially somebody that gets 9th level spell slots and a half dozen feats for free at first level. Yeah...
Ravens Claw 11-23-04, 08:06 AM	The warlock is a poor pc choice IMHO. The only good thing about it is that it does not suffer burnout, and that is about it. I do like it though.... anything that brings in new variables and strategy is good for the game. Cheers
Seyluun 11-23-04, 09:35 AM	It's underpowered if anything else. Developpers were really careful, maybe a bit too much, but considering the fact there is STILL people for creating 'Warlock is broken" thread, we can't blame them. Any core class can deal far more than 9D6 (average: 31.5) a round at level 20.
Kratilim Valqui 11-23-04, 10:00 AM	The Warlock is a nice class, as in flavour and in power. It isn't too powerful, but it does what it needs to do, and if your imagination works a bit you could come up with Invocations that realy flavourise your warlock. 9d6 isn't mutch but I think it is supposed to be 11d6, in the epic level section is states that in epic levels the eldritch blast progresses on 1d6/2lvls. So I think it should be 11d6 at lvl 20.
Heron_Marked_Blade 11-23-04, 10:21 AM	9d6 isn't mutch but I think it is supposed to be 11d6, in the epic level section is states that in epic levels the eldritch blast progresses on 1d6/2lvls. So I think it should be 11d6 at lvl 20. Yeah, I caught that. The Epic Level section says Eldritch Blast increases to 12d6 at 22nd level, 13d6 at 24th level, etc. It's a little bit of a jump from 9d6 at 20th level to 12d6 at 22nd level. I think we'll be seeing some Errata on that when they release the Errata on Complete Arcane. I still don't see a problem with the class. At first glance it seems overwhelming, but when you realize that they only gain a base of 12 known invocations, and that unless they use some of those invocations to modify their Eldritch Blast ability they'll only ever affect one person at a time with it, you realize they're pretty much a one-trick pony. *shrug* Give me a Wizard any time, or a Warmage. Now that's a class I'm concerned about — it makes the Blaster Sorcerer obsolete, at least at first glance....
Elendur 11-23-04, 12:22 PM	It's really hard to get a handle on this class. It seems both over and under powered at the same time. I think it would take some serious playtesting to really understand it. The thing that raises alarms is they seem to directly countering previous design decisions. For example, the spell Fly had its duration nerfed because it was deemed too powerful to be able to use for long periods of time, yet here comes the warlock with his unlimited flight invocation. However, it's only normal speed instead of 60 ft, so how much does that weaken it? The warlock as a charm invocation that is essentially an at will charm monster, something that in a race would easily warrant +1 or 2 LA by itself. However it can only be used on one person at a time. Does that make it reasonable? The eldrich blast seems fairly balanced in normal party situations. You're exchanging damage for unlimited uses. You'll have to stop when the other characters run out of spells, just like fighters and other 'unlimited use' characters do. It's only where you have situations like warlocks manning the walls of an extended castle seige that things get out of whack. Look at a warlock at first level. He can do a 1d6 ranged touch attack, that's about it. That's about the same as an archer character's 1d8 arrow, and worse than a magic missle. A 1st level wizard or sorcerer only has a few spells, but an archer usually has all the arrows he needs. As the warlock goes up in level his damage always tracks below the wiz/sorc or psion. And he loses the versatility that even the sorcerer has. It's these at will invocations like invisibility, charm, dispel magic, and flight that are hard to gauge.
ardalor 11-24-04, 01:24 PM	The eldrich blast seems fairly balanced in normal party situations. You're exchanging damage for unlimited uses. You'll have to stop when the other characters run out of spells, just like fighters and other 'unlimited use' characters do. It's only where you have situations like warlocks manning the walls of an extended castle seige that things get out of whack. Look at a warlock at first level. He can do a 1d6 ranged touch attack, that's about it. That's about the same as an archer character's 1d8 arrow, and worse than a magic missle. A 1st level wizard or sorcerer only has a few spells, but an archer usually has all the arrows he needs. As the warlock goes up in level his damage always tracks below the wiz/sorc or psion. And he loses the versatility that even the sorcerer has. Quick Question: Can the Warlock make a full attack with his Eldritch Blast? It seems like a stupid question, since it's listed as taking a standard action in the description, but the fact that it's the Warlock's main damage-dealing implement and that the Warlock itself has a medium BAB progression gives me some doubts.
Taliesin52 11-24-04, 03:40 PM	It's really hard to get a handle on this class. It seems both over and under powered at the same time. I think it would take some serious playtesting to really understand it. The thing that raises alarms is they seem to directly countering previous design decisions. For example, the spell Fly had its duration nerfed because it was deemed too powerful to be able to use for long periods of time, yet here comes the warlock with his unlimited flight invocation. However, it's only normal speed instead of 60 ft, so how much does that weaken it? The warlock as a charm invocation that is essentially an at will charm monster, something that in a race would easily warrant +1 or 2 LA by itself. However it can only be used on one person at a time. Does that make it reasonable? The eldrich blast seems fairly balanced in normal party situations. You're exchanging damage for unlimited uses. You'll have to stop when the other characters run out of spells, just like fighters and other 'unlimited use' characters do. It's only where you have situations like warlocks manning the walls of an extended castle seige that things get out of whack. Look at a warlock at first level. He can do a 1d6 ranged touch attack, that's about it. That's about the same as an archer character's 1d8 arrow, and worse than a magic missle. A 1st level wizard or sorcerer only has a few spells, but an archer usually has all the arrows he needs. As the warlock goes up in level his damage always tracks below the wiz/sorc or psion. And he loses the versatility that even the sorcerer has. It's these at will invocations like invisibility, charm, dispel magic, and flight that are hard to gauge. This is probably one of the best analysises I've seen on the warlock. The warlock's main usefulness is that they're a nonfighter who can do their niche abilities all the live long day. In exchange most of these abilities are not particularily powerful. The most powerful I could find would be the 24hr improved invis and the retrebutive dispels (although the later is a bit debatable). Those are both top tier abilities and aren't really anything compared to what other classes would be getting around the same time. I get the feeling that the warlock follows a different power progression than most classes. Early on its about on par with most, during the middle levels it seems to shine a lot as its ray attack is still pretty powerful, and the incantations all are great. Meanwhile other classes are not quite into their niche yet (having all 2 wpn feats, high spells, prc's). However, at high levels it peters out quickly as its single ray, which likely to hit can't compare to the multiple attacks of most classes and its fancy incantations are not going to be close to spells like poly any object or meteor swarm or wish or true res. The DR is a joke. Big deal, its cold iron. Its also what, dr5 at level 20? Not really a saving grace, and I'd gladly give that up to be able to cast mage armor, shield, prot normal missiles, stoneskin, and lesser sphere a few times a day. The most powerful ability I could find was the ability to make any magic item. However, this eats a lot of feats if you want to be abusive, and of course it eats cash and XP too. --- As for new incantations for flavor (to kind of stay where we should be for this specific forum), I can only think of a few. A poly self (with limited animal forms), some sort of weak weather power (whether its a gust of wind or a "darken the skies" type deal), and maybe a fear/scare gaze power (oooh creeeeepy eyessss) is about all I can think of, and even those aren't really great ideas.
Taliesin52 11-24-04, 03:41 PM	Quick Question: Can the Warlock make a full attack with his Eldritch Blast? It seems like a stupid question, since it's listed as taking a standard action in the description, but the fact that it's the Warlock's main damage-dealing implement and that the Warlock itself has a medium BAB progression gives me some doubts. No. Its 1 use a round. Ever. Huuuuge balancing factor.
ikki 11-24-04, 03:44 PM	But rapid shot? (regarding blasts only once a round)
Kyaran 11-24-04, 04:19 PM	But rapid shot? (regarding blasts only once a round)The Eldritch Blast is a Spell-like Ability and is subject to all the limitations of spells. You can't cast more than one spell per round without quickening one, and you certainly can't cast one per iterative attack.
Archtyrant Terevoth 11-24-04, 04:31 PM	So, what we get in the Warlock is essentially somebody that gets 9th level spell slots and a half dozen feats for free at first level. Yeah... That's a very obscure and misleading way of looking at it. The ability to cast combat spells as much as you want is relatively meaningless. An archer can shoot arrows all day or a fighter can swing his greatsword all day at very little cost, and it does nothing to game balance. The same is true of the warlock's blast ability. The rest of his abilities are actually a little more limiting than normal spells. He can for instance only have one creature charmed at a time, even though he can cast an infinite number of charm spells. And it is the noncombat spells which are inherently abuseable, but the warlock seems to be in control there. His invisibility affects himself only, his charm affects one person at a time, and his dimension door is short range and personal only. I actually though the warlock was a breath of fresh air for casters, as they've finally made someone who doesn't adhere to the stupid "spells/day" paradigm that hoses low level casters and makes high level casters into gods. In a spells/day system the DM at high levels always has to be constantly vigilant about preventing PCs from resting, because the casters are only balanced if spells/day is actually a factor, and that's only true if you have some kind of time constraint that forces you to have 3-4 encounters in a row without rest. By the same token, too many encoutners and the casters end up burned out and the fighters now start picking up all the slack. It's a paradigm that has proven impossible to balance at high levels, because it's a disadvantage that may or may not exist depending on your play style. The warlock on the other hand is a good character regardless of playstyle. You can drop him in the midst of an encounter heavy game or a one battle/day game and he still behaves the same. And that's a good thing.
Nithendil 11-24-04, 04:31 PM	I still question why a spellcaster should get damage reduction. If you're casting spells, you're not supposed to be on the front line. But, thats power creep for ya. Actually, its called flavor. As you somewhat stated, its essentially useless to the warlock, as he never really needs to be in melee. I assume it comes from their ancestral demonic pact. So, what we get in the Warlock is essentially somebody that gets 9th level spell slots and a half dozen feats for free at first level. Yeah... At higher levels, their powers are nowhere near the equivalent of arcane spells, unless you’re going all out in an epic battle. Arguably their best dark evocations are the baleful polymorph (a 5th level spell) and fort save for 2 negative levels. By this time a wizard is blasting 9th and 8th level spells. It doesn’t even compare. I think of the warlock the anti-bard. Not that good at damage, not that good with spells, but is incredibly selfish. It’s a great class for flavor, and I would play it just based on that alone.
whitelightsaber 11-24-04, 04:44 PM	Would a warlock under the effects of a haste spell be able to blast twice around? If so Chain shirt of speed is a must for every warlock. I think the warlock would make a good group of enemies (all blasting the same target) or as a gestalt character. WHITELIGHTSABER
Nithendil 11-24-04, 04:49 PM	No, as the blast is a standard action.
Shatteredtower 11-24-04, 05:10 PM	I still question why a spellcaster should get damage reduction. If you're casting spells, you're not supposed to be on the front line. But, thats power creep for ya. Many fey are hardly designed with the concept of front-line fighters either, but rather magical creatures. I hardly consider such low strength damage reduction power creep. Besides, damage reduction applies to ranged weapons as well, which can be quite useful to a spellcaster in some circumstances. And just for a bit of comparison, compare the Warlock to the Innate Spell feat, which was actually reprinted in CA. Innate Spell eats up several prereq feats, makes you permanently sacrifice a 9th level spell slot, and gives you... a first level spell as a spell-like ability. There are two ways to read that. I choose to read the feat as exceptionally weak, myself. Besides, does the warlock get to freely pick and choose from all spells for this purpose, a limited list, or are they all preordained?
deathmaster35 11-24-04, 05:43 PM	The warlock's main usefulness is that they're a nonfighter who can do their niche abilities all the live long day. In exchange most of these abilities are not particularily powerful. The most powerful I could find would be the 24hr improved invis and the retrebutive dispels (although the later is a bit debatable). Those are both top tier abilities and aren't really anything compared to what other classes would be getting around the same time. The regular invis is 24 hour, the improved invis is just like the spell, one round a level.
ardalor 11-24-04, 06:06 PM	At the same time, though, if you can cast it at will, it's like you have it all the time.
whitelightsaber 11-24-04, 07:22 PM	sorry about above post with haste...i had just read all of a 4 page column on 3.0 haste vs 3.5 haste... and it messed me up. WHITELIGHTSABER
Hairfoot 11-24-04, 07:22 PM	A few of us had a stoush about it here - http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=342104
Taliesin52 11-24-04, 07:46 PM	The regular invis is 24 hour, the improved invis is just like the spell, one round a level. True, I suppose. However, as its an at-will ability, all that means is he'll have to reinitiate it every few rounds.
Kaladin 11-25-04, 01:32 AM	True, I suppose. However, as its an at-will ability, all that means is he'll have to reinitiate it every few rounds. I believe the reason they did that is because Invis is non combat and a warlock could just spend a round to reactivate it. Impr. Invis. however is combat oriented meaning to recast it he would need to use an action in combat. That is why I believe they left it rounds/level.
Talchar 11-25-04, 05:23 AM	Just to throw in a copper or two. Personally, I like the concept of the warlock. I would expect over time, the invocations would increase to allow for a more dynamic build. This would most likely be done via Prc's. That said, the best use of the warlock class is as a multi-class wizard/warlock ( X level Wizard, level 1 Warlock). Wizards, hate trolling in the back of the party, conserving their magic missle spell. As a plus, if you can convice you DM that Practiced Spell Caster Feat, can work with a Warlock.... You are golden. A Wizard 5/Warlock 1 (blasting @ level 5) is a very good mix.
Taliesin52 11-25-04, 09:15 AM	I believe the reason they did that is because Invis is non combat and a warlock could just spend a round to reactivate it. Impr. Invis. however is combat oriented meaning to recast it he would need to use an action in combat. That is why I believe they left it rounds/level. agreed.
DemonMonkeyBoy 11-25-04, 04:31 PM	:b: As for multiclassing I thought it a good blasting cross would be the war mage. That or the rogue because they both wear light armor. p.s. where is the Practiced Spell Caster Feat found or what does it do.
Heron_Marked_Blade 11-25-04, 05:02 PM	p.s. where is the Practiced Spell Caster Feat found or what does it do. You can find it in both Complete Arcane and Complete Divine. It grants you +4 caster level to a single spellcasting class, but you can't have a higher caster level than your character level. Example: Wizard 4/Rogue 2 takes Practiced Spellcaster, applies the feat to his Wizard class, and now has a caster level of 6 (total character level 6). If he takes another level of rogue, his caster level becomes 7; a third rogue level will increase his caster level to 8. He's now a Wizard 4/Rogue 4 who casts his spells at CL 8. Note that the increase is only for caster level. You don't gain new spells per day/spells known as a result of this feat.