Anyone find the Planner Ally spells worth it? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Anyone find the Planner Ally spells worth it? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ramble
09-30-06, 08:02 AM Anyone got any stories of using the Planner Ally spells to effect that outways the costs of these spells? Especially for good aligned casters?

Ramble.
Thiez
09-30-06, 08:13 AM I've always wondered what outsiders would use the money for. I mean, outsiders don't eat or sleep. Living on the planes, them being infinite in size, can't be that expensive.

Like, outsiders have no 'upkeep' cost. Lock an outsider in a cage (and make sure he can't teleport/planeshift out of it) and leave it there for a thousand years. Come back, and he should still be there, being very annoyed with you.

Conclusion: outsiders just don't want you to summon them, and use the payment to make sure you won't.

Use Planar Binding instead, it's way cooler and I like the flavour :)
Dunamin
09-30-06, 12:11 PM I've always wondered what outsiders would use the money for. I mean, outsiders don't eat or sleep.
This payment can take a variety of forms, from donating gold or magic items to an allied temple, to a gift given directly to the creature, to some other action on your part that matches the creature’s alignment and goals
And even if they demand gold to increase their personal wealth, a warm meal and cosy bed are not the only things that can be bought for money, you know. Even so, outsiders may still occasionally desire a delicious meal for the sensation (particularly eladrins) or a house for the shelter, security and sense of home.
Thiez
09-30-06, 12:25 PM With their level adjustments, their wealth-by-level wealth makes sure that whatever you pay them isn't going to significantly increase their wealth anyway :P
mvincent
09-30-06, 06:47 PM Using lesser planar ally to get a formian taskmaster can effectively win the game for you (i.e. he starts controlling all your opponents).
Dunamin
10-01-06, 02:51 AM Using lesser planar ally to get a formian taskmaster can effectively win the game for you (i.e. he starts controlling all your opponents).
That is hardly a sure-fire way to "win" any encounter, let alone "win the game". The DC is 17, only up to Large creatures may be targetted, if they save they become immune for 24 hours, and the taskmaster can only capture up to 4 creatures at a time. Each attempt costs it a standard action, and it is not really that hard to kill for a CR 7 creature.
Also, you can't choose which creature to get.
However, it can be an effective ally at lower levels and generally against mooks and weak-willed critters.
mvincent
10-01-06, 03:59 AM That is hardly a sure-fire way to "win" any encounter.I didn't say "sure fire", but it can give excellent odds if used correctly. I've use this and it has worked extremely (too) well. It was just a matter of keeping the taskmaster safe and targeting low will brute-types (giants, manticore's, etc.)... working your way up the food chain. The dominated creatures were then available for future battles (facilitating the process).

you can't choose which creature to get.You can if you know their name. If you don't know a taskmaster's name yet, I can recommend "Myrmidonix Noranix"

(mention my name for a discount)
Dunamin
10-01-06, 04:14 AM you can't choose which creature to get.You can if you know their name.
No.
If you know an individual creature’s name, you may request that individual by speaking the name during the spell (though you might get a different creature anyway).
I'll say hi to Myrmidonix Noranix next time I drop by Arcadia, Mechanus or whereever he may be hanging out with his formian homies :D.
The Simbul
10-01-06, 04:27 AM Anyone got any stories of using the Planner Ally spells to effect that outways the costs of these spells? Especially for good aligned casters?Being a sorcerer. CHA is they key to planar binding, in the same way that INT is the key to contact other plane
You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service by describing the service and perhaps offering some sort of reward. You make a Charisma check opposed by the creature’s Charisma check. The check is assigned a bonus of +0 to +6 based on the nature of the service and the reward. If the creature wins the opposed check, it refuses service. New offers, bribes, and the like can be made or the old ones reoffered every 24 hours. This process can be repeated until the creature promises to serve, until it breaks free, or until you decide to get rid of it by means of some other spell. Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to. If you roll a 1 on the Charisma check, the creature breaks free of the binding and can escape or attack you.A PC Sorcerer will have a CHA score higher than that of most creatures that they can call with the planar binding spell chain, and they can make further use of magic items to boost their charisma checks (circlet of persuasion, stone of good luck, etc). The end result is that you can summon and bind creatures, demand service with no reward whatsoever, and still have an extremely good chance of beating them in an opposed CHA check.
Dunamin
10-01-06, 04:35 AM The end result is that you can summon and bind creatures, demand service with no reward whatsoever, and still have an extremely good chance of beating them in an opposed CHA check.
It still depends on the task in question. As you quoted, unreasonable commands are never agreed to.
Ramble
10-01-06, 05:00 AM Keeping the thread on the topic of planner ally and not binding, is general concensus apathy for at least the lower levels for a spell that costs XP, cash, and the PC doesn't get to chose the summoned creature, not only logically restricted to the alignment and plane of the deity without some story to broaden the selection, this creature is at best just suggested to the GM along with the job he wants to summon it for?
Dunamin
10-01-06, 05:24 AM I find it works well as a DM tool.
For example: The villian has noticed the PCs interfering with his plans, but you as a DM don't want him to face them because he is beyond their power level and want to maintain his mysticism.
Rather than sending "conventional" lackeys, let him call a vile fiend to attempt an ambush or assasination on the party, showing him to take actions to get rid of this annoyance.
A fiend that turns out to be too weak may still be relatively harder to capture, extract information from and thus cannot reveal as much about the villians and his plans (if it knows anything at all).
On the other hand, if the fiend turns out to be too powerful, the PCs may attempt to evade it until the duration for which it serves has run out, giving them a good scare.
Ramble
10-01-06, 09:44 PM I find it works well as a DM tool.

It works well when you have unlimited XP and cash to draw on :P

Ramble.
mvincent
10-02-06, 12:58 AM you can't choose which creature to get.
You can if you know their name No.The rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarAllyLesser.htm) say:
"If you know an individual creature’s name, you may request that individual by speaking the name during the spell"
Ramble
10-02-06, 02:07 AM The rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarAllyLesser.htm) say:
"If you know an individual creature’s name, you may request that individual by speaking the name during the spell"

Um, did you not see the the second half of that sentance in the brackets, about still geeting a different creature?

Ramble.
Greowhiste
10-02-06, 08:58 AM I think this spell can be very useful at the higher levels, especially if the act you wish to give your ally is fully within bounds of its alignment. "those demons are pure evil, help protect me and mine from their devices." Those sorts of things some outsiders would gladly do. frankly, as was mentioned before, they don't really DO anything that requires upkeep. All they do is serve the nature or god to which they bend. I would think this would be a hay day for them to be hand picked by their diety to go kick some arse in their behalf. if the task is a little outside of their ethics or whatever, then they request gold and stuff in order to give it to their church, put it towards helping to promote their ethics, etc. Same with evil outsiders.

Take a look at the Thaumaturgist too. I'm kind of liking that prest class more and more (esp for the baddies)
Kal_Torak
10-02-06, 10:50 AM I agree that paying outsiders in gold doesn't make too much sense. So, when people in my campaign summon evil outsiders w/ planar ally, the outsider (usuallly a demon, devil, similar type) demands payment in souls. I'm pretty sure that it is mentioned somewhere that souls are used as currency for some outsiders. You tell the outsider that it will receive payment within 10 years or something like that, then go hunting down people to sacrifice to it.

That worked out pretty conveniently in one campaign when the clerics summoned large demons and promised payments of a certain amount of souls; they were at the BBEG's castle and they were going to sacrifice the large kitchen staff and servants. Needless to say, the clerics were evil aligned, but were fighting the BBEG because he was going to destroy a large part of the world, that didn't leave much of the world for them to conquer then.
mvincent
10-02-06, 10:51 AM Um, did you not see the the second half of that sentance in the brackets, about still geeting a different creature?I both read it and gave a link to the spell:
"If you know an individual creature’s name, you may request that individual by speaking the name during the spell (though you might get a different creature anyway)."

That doesn't invalidate my previous statements. It's seeming that both you and Dunamin are being especially pendantic at this point. I feel justified at being annoyed at Dunamin's inaccurately contrary response.
Dunamin
10-02-06, 11:52 AM Um, did you not see the the second half of that sentance in the brackets, about still geeting a different creature?
I both read it and gave a link to the spell:
"If you know an individual creature’s name, you may request that individual by speaking the name during the spell (though you might get a different creature anyway)."

That doesn't invalid my previous statements. It's seeming that both you and Dunamin are being especially pendantic at this point. I feel justified at being annoyed at Dunamin's inaccurately contrary response.
No annoyance was intended mvincent, but I do think that my response was entirely accurate: The character has no choice in the matter, only the option to request for a specific named being. You may as well highlight like this:
"By casting this spell, you request your deity to send you an elemental or outsider (of 6 HD or less) of the deity’s choice. If you serve no particular deity, the spell is a general plea answered by a creature sharing your philosophical alignment. If you know an individual creature’s name, you may request that individual by speaking the name during the spell (though you might get a different creature anyway). "

What his chances are of being granted this personal request is entirely up to the DM. In my opinion, if there are no unreasonable circumstances and the intent of the cleric is in line with his deity’s agenda, I see no reason why he shouldn’t be granted the request.

The decision still lies with the deity, however, not the character.
Thiez
10-02-06, 11:54 AM Cleric: I, Murgh, High Priest of Nerull, request a Solar Angel to come to my aid!
Nerull: Screw you. Here's a dretch.
Millennium
10-02-06, 11:55 AM Planner Ally? Is that the spell where you summon Franklin and Covey? :P
mvincent
10-02-06, 12:17 PM In my opinion, if there are no unreasonable circumstances and the intent of the cleric is in line with his deity’s agenda, I see no reason why he shouldn’t be granted the request.Fair enough. However, when I said "inaccurately contrary" I was meaning that my own statements appeared valid, so stating they were not (i.e. when you said "No") seemed inaccurate. By RAW, it is possibly to:
1) use lesser planar ally to obtain the services of a formian taskmaster
2) specify a taskmaster as your request.

I don't believe my statements said/implied otherwise (but your contradiction seemed to).

Yes, your deity and/or DM can easily decline the request (but I often take that as a possibility for any action).
Dunamin
10-02-06, 04:46 PM Fair enough. However, when I said "inaccurately contrary" I was meaning that my own statements appeared valid, so stating they were not (i.e. when you said "No") seemed inaccurate.
...
I don't believe my statements said/implied otherwise (but your contradiction seemed to).

You meant rejection rather than contradiction, I take it? The only thing I rejected was this statement:
you can't choose which creature to get.You can if you know their name.
I fully agree on the capabilities of the spell that you've listed in your last post, but merely remarking that the choice is the deity’s, not the character's.

Yes, your deity and/or DM can easily decline the request (but I often take that as a possibility for any action).
While a deity may deny any divine power asked for by his/her clerics, I thought it worth mentioning with the Planar Ally spells, since the possibility is explicitly stated in the spell description (in contrast to most clerical spells).

But I digress. My sincere apologies if I’ve caused any confusion and/or offence in the process.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ramble 09-30-06, 08:02 AM	Anyone got any stories of using the Planner Ally spells to effect that outways the costs of these spells? Especially for good aligned casters? Ramble.
Thiez 09-30-06, 08:13 AM	I've always wondered what outsiders would use the money for. I mean, outsiders don't eat or sleep. Living on the planes, them being infinite in size, can't be that expensive. Like, outsiders have no 'upkeep' cost. Lock an outsider in a cage (and make sure he can't teleport/planeshift out of it) and leave it there for a thousand years. Come back, and he should still be there, being very annoyed with you. Conclusion: outsiders just don't want you to summon them, and use the payment to make sure you won't. Use Planar Binding instead, it's way cooler and I like the flavour :)
Dunamin 09-30-06, 12:11 PM	I've always wondered what outsiders would use the money for. I mean, outsiders don't eat or sleep. This payment can take a variety of forms, from donating gold or magic items to an allied temple, to a gift given directly to the creature, to some other action on your part that matches the creature’s alignment and goals And even if they demand gold to increase their personal wealth, a warm meal and cosy bed are not the only things that can be bought for money, you know. Even so, outsiders may still occasionally desire a delicious meal for the sensation (particularly eladrins) or a house for the shelter, security and sense of home.
Thiez 09-30-06, 12:25 PM	With their level adjustments, their wealth-by-level wealth makes sure that whatever you pay them isn't going to significantly increase their wealth anyway :P
mvincent 09-30-06, 06:47 PM	Using lesser planar ally to get a formian taskmaster can effectively win the game for you (i.e. he starts controlling all your opponents).
Dunamin 10-01-06, 02:51 AM	Using lesser planar ally to get a formian taskmaster can effectively win the game for you (i.e. he starts controlling all your opponents). That is hardly a sure-fire way to "win" any encounter, let alone "win the game". The DC is 17, only up to Large creatures may be targetted, if they save they become immune for 24 hours, and the taskmaster can only capture up to 4 creatures at a time. Each attempt costs it a standard action, and it is not really that hard to kill for a CR 7 creature. Also, you can't choose which creature to get. However, it can be an effective ally at lower levels and generally against mooks and weak-willed critters.
mvincent 10-01-06, 03:59 AM	That is hardly a sure-fire way to "win" any encounter.I didn't say "sure fire", but it can give excellent odds if used correctly. I've use this and it has worked extremely (too) well. It was just a matter of keeping the taskmaster safe and targeting low will brute-types (giants, manticore's, etc.)... working your way up the food chain. The dominated creatures were then available for future battles (facilitating the process). you can't choose which creature to get.You can if you know their name. If you don't know a taskmaster's name yet, I can recommend "Myrmidonix Noranix" (mention my name for a discount)
Dunamin 10-01-06, 04:14 AM	you can't choose which creature to get.You can if you know their name. No. If you know an individual creature’s name, you may request that individual by speaking the name during the spell (though you might get a different creature anyway). I'll say hi to Myrmidonix Noranix next time I drop by Arcadia, Mechanus or whereever he may be hanging out with his formian homies :D.
The Simbul 10-01-06, 04:27 AM	Anyone got any stories of using the Planner Ally spells to effect that outways the costs of these spells? Especially for good aligned casters?Being a sorcerer. CHA is they key to planar binding, in the same way that INT is the key to contact other plane You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service by describing the service and perhaps offering some sort of reward. You make a Charisma check opposed by the creature’s Charisma check. The check is assigned a bonus of +0 to +6 based on the nature of the service and the reward. If the creature wins the opposed check, it refuses service. New offers, bribes, and the like can be made or the old ones reoffered every 24 hours. This process can be repeated until the creature promises to serve, until it breaks free, or until you decide to get rid of it by means of some other spell. Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to. If you roll a 1 on the Charisma check, the creature breaks free of the binding and can escape or attack you.A PC Sorcerer will have a CHA score higher than that of most creatures that they can call with the planar binding spell chain, and they can make further use of magic items to boost their charisma checks (circlet of persuasion, stone of good luck, etc). The end result is that you can summon and bind creatures, demand service with no reward whatsoever, and still have an extremely good chance of beating them in an opposed CHA check.
Dunamin 10-01-06, 04:35 AM	The end result is that you can summon and bind creatures, demand service with no reward whatsoever, and still have an extremely good chance of beating them in an opposed CHA check. It still depends on the task in question. As you quoted, unreasonable commands are never agreed to.
Ramble 10-01-06, 05:00 AM	Keeping the thread on the topic of planner ally and not binding, is general concensus apathy for at least the lower levels for a spell that costs XP, cash, and the PC doesn't get to chose the summoned creature, not only logically restricted to the alignment and plane of the deity without some story to broaden the selection, this creature is at best just suggested to the GM along with the job he wants to summon it for?
Dunamin 10-01-06, 05:24 AM	I find it works well as a DM tool. For example: The villian has noticed the PCs interfering with his plans, but you as a DM don't want him to face them because he is beyond their power level and want to maintain his mysticism. Rather than sending "conventional" lackeys, let him call a vile fiend to attempt an ambush or assasination on the party, showing him to take actions to get rid of this annoyance. A fiend that turns out to be too weak may still be relatively harder to capture, extract information from and thus cannot reveal as much about the villians and his plans (if it knows anything at all). On the other hand, if the fiend turns out to be too powerful, the PCs may attempt to evade it until the duration for which it serves has run out, giving them a good scare.
Ramble 10-01-06, 09:44 PM	I find it works well as a DM tool. It works well when you have unlimited XP and cash to draw on :P Ramble.
mvincent 10-02-06, 12:58 AM	you can't choose which creature to get. You can if you know their name No.The rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarAllyLesser.htm) say: "If you know an individual creature’s name, you may request that individual by speaking the name during the spell"
Ramble 10-02-06, 02:07 AM	The rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarAllyLesser.htm) say: "If you know an individual creature’s name, you may request that individual by speaking the name during the spell" Um, did you not see the the second half of that sentance in the brackets, about still geeting a different creature? Ramble.
Greowhiste 10-02-06, 08:58 AM	I think this spell can be very useful at the higher levels, especially if the act you wish to give your ally is fully within bounds of its alignment. "those demons are pure evil, help protect me and mine from their devices." Those sorts of things some outsiders would gladly do. frankly, as was mentioned before, they don't really DO anything that requires upkeep. All they do is serve the nature or god to which they bend. I would think this would be a hay day for them to be hand picked by their diety to go kick some arse in their behalf. if the task is a little outside of their ethics or whatever, then they request gold and stuff in order to give it to their church, put it towards helping to promote their ethics, etc. Same with evil outsiders. Take a look at the Thaumaturgist too. I'm kind of liking that prest class more and more (esp for the baddies)
Kal_Torak 10-02-06, 10:50 AM	I agree that paying outsiders in gold doesn't make too much sense. So, when people in my campaign summon evil outsiders w/ planar ally, the outsider (usuallly a demon, devil, similar type) demands payment in souls. I'm pretty sure that it is mentioned somewhere that souls are used as currency for some outsiders. You tell the outsider that it will receive payment within 10 years or something like that, then go hunting down people to sacrifice to it. That worked out pretty conveniently in one campaign when the clerics summoned large demons and promised payments of a certain amount of souls; they were at the BBEG's castle and they were going to sacrifice the large kitchen staff and servants. Needless to say, the clerics were evil aligned, but were fighting the BBEG because he was going to destroy a large part of the world, that didn't leave much of the world for them to conquer then.
mvincent 10-02-06, 10:51 AM	Um, did you not see the the second half of that sentance in the brackets, about still geeting a different creature?I both read it and gave a link to the spell: "If you know an individual creature’s name, you may request that individual by speaking the name during the spell (though you might get a different creature anyway)." That doesn't invalidate my previous statements. It's seeming that both you and Dunamin are being especially pendantic at this point. I feel justified at being annoyed at Dunamin's inaccurately contrary response.
Dunamin 10-02-06, 11:52 AM	Um, did you not see the the second half of that sentance in the brackets, about still geeting a different creature? I both read it and gave a link to the spell: "If you know an individual creature’s name, you may request that individual by speaking the name during the spell (though you might get a different creature anyway)." That doesn't invalid my previous statements. It's seeming that both you and Dunamin are being especially pendantic at this point. I feel justified at being annoyed at Dunamin's inaccurately contrary response. No annoyance was intended mvincent, but I do think that my response was entirely accurate: The character has no choice in the matter, only the option to request for a specific named being. You may as well highlight like this: "By casting this spell, you request your deity to send you an elemental or outsider (of 6 HD or less) of the deity’s choice. If you serve no particular deity, the spell is a general plea answered by a creature sharing your philosophical alignment. If you know an individual creature’s name, you may request that individual by speaking the name during the spell (though you might get a different creature anyway). " What his chances are of being granted this personal request is entirely up to the DM. In my opinion, if there are no unreasonable circumstances and the intent of the cleric is in line with his deity’s agenda, I see no reason why he shouldn’t be granted the request. The decision still lies with the deity, however, not the character.
Thiez 10-02-06, 11:54 AM	Cleric: I, Murgh, High Priest of Nerull, request a Solar Angel to come to my aid! Nerull: Screw you. Here's a dretch.
Millennium 10-02-06, 11:55 AM	Planner Ally? Is that the spell where you summon Franklin and Covey? :P
mvincent 10-02-06, 12:17 PM	In my opinion, if there are no unreasonable circumstances and the intent of the cleric is in line with his deity’s agenda, I see no reason why he shouldn’t be granted the request.Fair enough. However, when I said "inaccurately contrary" I was meaning that my own statements appeared valid, so stating they were not (i.e. when you said "No") seemed inaccurate. By RAW, it is possibly to: 1) use lesser planar ally to obtain the services of a formian taskmaster 2) specify a taskmaster as your request. I don't believe my statements said/implied otherwise (but your contradiction seemed to). Yes, your deity and/or DM can easily decline the request (but I often take that as a possibility for any action).
Dunamin 10-02-06, 04:46 PM	Fair enough. However, when I said "inaccurately contrary" I was meaning that my own statements appeared valid, so stating they were not (i.e. when you said "No") seemed inaccurate. ... I don't believe my statements said/implied otherwise (but your contradiction seemed to). You meant rejection rather than contradiction, I take it? The only thing I rejected was this statement: you can't choose which creature to get.You can if you know their name. I fully agree on the capabilities of the spell that you've listed in your last post, but merely remarking that the choice is the deity’s, not the character's. Yes, your deity and/or DM can easily decline the request (but I often take that as a possibility for any action). While a deity may deny any divine power asked for by his/her clerics, I thought it worth mentioning with the Planar Ally spells, since the possibility is explicitly stated in the spell description (in contrast to most clerical spells). But I digress. My sincere apologies if I’ve caused any confusion and/or offence in the process.