Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pennarin 03-28-05, 07:40 PM	The Scabbard of Keen Edges casts keen edge on the sheated blade, so why not a Scabbard that casts sure strike? Its an easy item to make, just wondering if anyone knows a reason to not allow it. Scabbard of Keen Edges: This scabbard is fashioned from cured leather and fine silver. It can shrink or enlarge to accommodate any knife, dagger, sword, or similar weapon up to and including a greatsword. Up to three times per day on command, the scabbard casts keen edge on any blade placed within it. Faint transmutation; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item, keen edge; Price 16,000 gp;Weight 1 lb.
Seeker95 03-28-05, 08:55 PM	Give us your proposed write-up for your scabbard, and then let us evaluate it.
Eliza_Stormwhisper 03-28-05, 09:15 PM	There are tables and formulas in the DMG to determine what the price on it would be. And no, I don't see a problem with making one, although I can image such an item would be very expensive to create.
Pennarin 03-29-05, 12:05 AM	I confused the name of the spell: its not sure strike but true strike. Go figure. Scabbard of True Striking: This scabbard is fashioned from cured leather and fine silver. It can shrink or enlarge to accommodate any knife, dagger, sword, or similar weapon up to and including a greatsword. Up to three times per day on command, the scabbard casts true strike on any creature unsheating the weapon placed within it. The insight bonus stays present until the next attack with the weapon, or 1 minute has passed, which ever comes first. Faint divination; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item, true strike; Price 6,000 gp; Weight 1 lb. Price: CL 5 x Spell Level 1 x 2,000 (Use-activated or continuous) = 10,000 10,000 / 1.6666 (5 divided by 3 uses per day) = 6,000 I do realize the Scabbard of Keen Edges does not have a price that follows the pricing rules in the DMG. But this item does, and since the Keen Edges one is 16,000 and uses a 3rd-level spell, and mine is 6,000 and uses a 1st-level spell, if you do the math my item is nearly 1/3 the price for 1/3 the spell level.
Bulabase 03-29-05, 12:20 AM	True strike has a range of personal, so I don't think you can cast it on a weapon. Also, refer to Seeker95's sig.
Pennarin 03-29-05, 01:00 AM	lol, don't worry, I read his sig a long time ago! :P This scabbard does not make a blade into a Weapon of True Striking. Yes, the spell has a range of personal, while keen edge affects a weapon. Since the scabbard actually casts the spell, maybe we can find a way around it. Can't we say, since this is an item, that the scabbard confers the spell on the next person who grasps the sheated blade?
Eliza_Stormwhisper 03-29-05, 01:07 AM	True strike has a range of personal, so I don't think you can cast it on a weapon. Also, refer to Seeker95's sig. Well, if we're wanting to be fair here, knock the spell level up to 2 and allow it to be cast upon the weapon. Then recalculate: It's a wondrous item. That incurs no multiplier. Caster level 5 x spell level 2 x 2,000 gp = 20,000. 5/3= 1.66, etc. = 12,000. All in all, the scabbard idea would be inefficient. I'd recommend a ring that cast true strike on you, for a base cost of... oh, nevermind. You have to be 12th level to forge a ring.
Thraxious 03-29-05, 01:07 AM	I would personally not allow the unlimited one.... tastes bad. However the so many uses per day sounds pretty reasonable. It is enough for the first attack in most of the fights they are likely to get into (which is pretty cool). But you do not have to worry about some spring attacker going to town with every attack they ever make being a sure thing. Just my opinion anyway.
Nom 03-29-05, 01:25 AM	I confused the name of the spell: its not sure strike but true strike. Go figure. Scabbard of True Striking: This scabbard is fashioned from cured leather and fine silver. It can shrink or enlarge to accommodate any knife, dagger, sword, or similar weapon up to and including a greatsword. Up to three times per day on command, the scabbard casts true strike on any creature unsheating the weapon placed within it. The insight bonus stays present until the next attack with the weapon, or 1 minute has passed, which ever comes first. Faint divination; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item, true strike; Price 6,000 gp; Weight 1 lb. Price: CL 5 x Spell Level 1 x 2,000 (Use-activated or continuous) = 10,000 10,000 / 1.6666 (5 divided by 3 uses per day) = 6,000 I do realize the Scabbard of Keen Edges does not have a price that follows the pricing rules in the DMG. But this item does, and since the Keen Edges one is 16,000 and uses a 3rd-level spell, and mine is 6,000 and uses a 1st-level spell, if you do the math my item is nearly 1/3 the price for 1/3 the spell level.Firstly, if you're going to use table 7-33, you should be pricing based on "command word", not "use-activated", since you require a command word to trigger the item. Thus, nominal price would be Spell level 1 * caster level 1 * 1800 gp * 3/5 = 1,080gp. Now, how does this item differ from the spell? Firstly, it lasts for 1 minute (or until used), which is quite a bit longer than 2 rounds (or until used). Secondly, it includes a size-shifting scabbard. Thirdly, it can be used by anyone, not just an arcane spellcaster. Finally, after activation you need to remove the item from the scabbard (move or free action) before using it. It also does not provoke an AoO, but that's covered in the transistion from spell -> command-activated item. The biggest issues here are the duration and the removal of the "caster only" restriction. I'd recommend reducing the duration to match the spell (2 rounds or until discharged). I'd also recommend significantly increasing the price (to, say, 5000gp). This item almost guarantees a hit for the first attack of any combat, which can be a pretty big benefit for a rogue or power-attacking fighter. Alternatively, you could make the item spell-trigger, at which point the price becomes 900gp (750gp spell trigger, x2 uncharged, * 3/5 times/day), which is probably fair (compare wand of true strike at 750gp).
RaspK FOG 03-29-05, 03:03 AM	Actually, True Strike is a spell that was meant to buff up the mage who cast it ONLY, and for a short time ONLY... The problem arises from the fact that a scabbard lends this power to non-mages with a potentially very high BABs.
Seeker95 03-29-05, 11:59 AM	I have no problem with the 3/day scabbard. It is a move action to unsheathe a blade. it is a move action to sheathe a blade. At best, this gives the owner a single drawing of the blade every third round for a single +20 to hit. It cannot be used in conjunction with a full attack action, and it cannot be used to accomplish a true strike hit every other round, since the weapon must go in and out to work. Best / most aggressive use: Round one: draw and swing Round two: sheathe and draw Round three: Full attack, with first attack at +20. In this case, sheathing the weapon incurred an attack of opportunity.
symons 03-29-05, 12:10 PM	i thought that you could draw a weapon as a free action as part of a move action if your bab is equal to or greater then 1. If that is the case could you not take a 5 foot step and get a full attack with this item.
Vharuck 03-29-05, 12:21 PM	What about having mutliple sheaths on a bandoleer (leather sash across the chest) that each carry a dagger? If a person has Quick Draw, that's +20 to each attack with a full attack.
RaspK FOG 03-29-05, 01:03 PM	What about having mutliple sheaths on a bandoleer (leather sash across the chest) that each carry a dagger? If a person has Quick Draw, that's +20 to each attack with a full attack. Exactly! That's why such items should never come up: it's like my player who wants to sell the caltrops he gets from his Bag of Infinite Caltrops...
Seeker95 03-29-05, 01:04 PM	What about having mutliple sheaths on a bandoleer (leather sash across the chest) that each carry a dagger? If a person has Quick Draw, that's +20 to each attack with a full attack.Only if...you can afford multiple sheathes. At a minimum of 6,000gp per sheathe (assuming you are using a 3/day price reduction), that adds up quickly. You can't afford a two-sheathe bandolier until 4th level (or higher, depending on how your DM allows wealth in a single item). Adding more sheathes increases the cost in equal measure.
RaspK FOG 03-29-05, 01:08 PM	As if you really have more than 1 attacks before level 6...
primemover003 03-29-05, 04:20 PM	i thought that you could draw a weapon as a free action as part of a move action if your bab is equal to or greater then 1. If that is the case could you not take a 5 foot step and get a full attack with this item. A 5' step is not a move action, it's a 5' step. If take a 5' step you can draw your sword, but it's a move action, which leaves you a Standard action to attack. You actually have to move to use the combined action.
helium3 03-29-05, 05:40 PM	Firstly, I would never allow an item that would give the user the ability to do a potentially unlimited number of true-strikes per day. You're just asking for trouble with something like that. I once had a player suggest that his character be allowed to buy a "ring of true strike" that would give his character a continuous true strike effect. He even helpfully suggested a price of 2,000 gp, as that was the value that he had calculated using the magic item creation rules from the DMG. I pointed out that he had neglected to read the footnote related to multipliers determined by the duration of the spell effect to be made continuous, and then pointed out that since the duration of true strike is essentially instantaneous the price of the item should be essentially infinite. Then I pointed out how broken the proposed item would be. A wonderous item that allowed a limited number of true strikes per day seems more reasonable. A command word activated item seems appropriate. The body slot that I would normally use for this would be the "bracers" slot. If you really wanted it to be a scabbard, I would consider that the "belt" slot and adjust the price for being in a "non-affinity" slot. I would do away with the requirements for drawing and sheathing of the weapon. I would allow for 5 uses per day. According to the DMG, the price for this item would be 2700 gp. I'm not sure that this price is high enough to reflect just how nice and useful an item like that would be, so I'd multiply the cost by 10 times and call it a "the DM thinks this item might be broken so he's gonna make you pay out the wazoo for it" cost multiplier. So, it'd cost 27,000 gp.
Brand Finbuck 03-29-05, 11:41 PM	If you covet balance in your game to any extent whatsoever, do not even dream of making or allowing this item to ever exist. Unless you like the 16th level Frenzied Berserker power attacking for 64 damage every single round and still getting a +4 to hit after it's said and done. Gimme a healthy dose of Keen Shocking Burst Scythe criticals please, I promise 8d4 + 36 + 64 + 3d10 will make you weep pure grade-A crude oil. Of course this in the hands of a weaker class is only slightly less game breaking.
Nom 03-30-05, 01:52 AM	Advice to doomsayers: read what is written. The proposed item is 3/day, and requires a command word standard action to trigger. A user is not going to be able to trigger true strike an unlimited number of times per day, they are not going to be able to use it round after round, and they are most certainly not going to be able to use it on every attack of a full attack. Whether the possibility of a true strike on the first round of a combat is overpowered, and how much it should cost, is up for debate. But posting about how the item would be terribly broken if it were completely different to the item being proposed doesn't really help anyone.
Pennarin 03-30-05, 02:34 AM	Thanks Nom, for putting things back on track.
Brand Finbuck 03-30-05, 09:21 AM	Advice to doomsayers: read what is written. The proposed item is 3/day, and requires a command word standard action to trigger. A user is not going to be able to trigger true strike an unlimited number of times per day, they are not going to be able to use it round after round, and they are most certainly not going to be able to use it on every attack of a full attack. Whether the possibility of a true strike on the first round of a combat is overpowered, and how much it should cost, is up for debate. But posting about how the item would be terribly broken if it were completely different to the item being proposed doesn't really help anyone. The item he has proposed, will still create serious imbalance issues. Three times a day will prove to be sufficient to do this.
Nom 03-30-05, 09:36 AM	The item he has proposed, will still create serious imbalance issues. Three times a day will prove to be sufficient to do this.Then do an analysis and suggest an appropriate price. "Unless you like the 16th level Frenzied Berserker power attacking for 64 damage every single round and still getting a +4 to hit after it's said and done" (emphasis mine) does not look like you are doing a sensible analysis, since your "broken case" is impossible to achieve with the weapon as presented. For reference, the "null hypothesis" in this discussion is a character with a single rank of wizard or sorcerer (or a cleric with the Magic domain). Such a character may freely use a wand of true strike, and thus (combined with Quick Draw) may true strike every second round. Similarly, a DC 20 use wand UMD check isn't that difficult for a high level rogue or bard.
Brand Finbuck 03-30-05, 12:47 PM	I would allow no item that provided any charges of true strike, or command word use of the ability at any price. Possibly I might permit a once a day item, but I'd be wary of even small scale uses. There is a distinct reason why as a first level spell, true strike is personal range only, it is a very powerful spell when put in the hands of a melee or ranged weaponry based character. Nor would I allow a rogue to continually purchase huge bundles of true strike scrolls, just like I would likewise not allow a barbarian with one sorcerer level to purchase wands of true strike or scrolls of true strike. For that matter, I would not allow a wand of true strike either. The capacity to combine true strike with power attack is out of line in my opinion, for this reason I would not allow this spell to be so freely applied, even in a limited context and even for a steep price. Sorry if you don't agree, I don't see a need to establish my case with hard numbers.
shaudes 03-30-05, 05:24 PM	YOU CAN ALWAYS ASK YOUR PLAYERS. " Do you realy want to fight a NPC that is using this?" Whats good for the PC's is good for the NPC's and vice versa. by requiering the blade to be reshithed befor it can be used again, it is most likly going to be used only once an encounter, and even if used more than once, only aginst realy hard to hit nasties. could add a limitation. this power is usabel no more than once every 5 minets. in adition to the #of times per day
tejon 03-31-05, 03:37 AM	FWIW, I've considered this problem myself, and I came up with two solutions to a True Strike item that doesn't have a charge limitation. My slot of choice was bracers (scabbard makes no sense, because as has been mentioned True Strike is a personal-range spell). The first option is command word activation. This is a dead-simple, cheap-as-dirt item: Slvl1, Clvl1 x1800 = 1800gp. But it's a standard action to activate, and only works on the first attack in the following round: you always hit, but you spend half your rounds making sure you always hit. Your party's fighter could have one by 3rd level; it's up to the GM to decide whether the disadvantages are enough to balance that out. Personally, I'm looking at an item which gives your enemy twice as much time to disable you, while bestowing zero defensive advantage. As powerful as always hitting is, it doesn't help you if you've been pinned, tripped or sundered during that one-round waiting period. Even so, this can easily be argued as way over the top. And in fact, no such item has ever appeared in my campaigns. The second option is a continuous or use-activated item. Now, the thing about this is, True Strike is a spell which discharges itself; extend its duration to one hour, and it still ends the first time you make an attack. So "continuous" isn't really an option. The only option I really see, then, is for it to be re-cast every round (at which point it still only affects one attack that round). What's more, since this is a body-slot item (bracers or otherwise), "use activated" is hard to justify too... you don't "use" bracers in the same way as you swing a sword, you just put them on. So the only option I think is fair, is to require the spell to be quickened. This makes it a 5th level spell, with a 9th level caster requirement. Suddenly we're looking at 5 x 9 x 1800 = 81,000gp, a much more reasonable price for such a powerful item. Note that this still requires a command word every round, only as a swift action instead of a standard (so a silenced character can't use them, and the character's swift action is consumed). If you were going to allow the players to get around this at all, it would have to be by bumping the spell's cost up to the "continuous" level -- which could be 90,000 if you were feeling exceptionally generous, but should in fact be 360,000: the oft-ignored footnote under "continuous" indicates increased prices for shorter base-duration spells, and for a spell with a duration measured in rounds, it's 4x the normal formula. So for a little over a third of a million, you can have a completely free true strike for your first attack each round, as long as you're not in an antimagic zone. That, I think, is fair. (And watch them cry when it gets sundered.) EDIT: Oh, I did want to mention that I don't think it's especially unbalancing for a melee type to have access to True Strike. A fighter with one level of Sorcerer has 3 or 4 of them a day, and you don't even want to see my Ftr1/Wiz6/Spellsword1/Eldritch Knight or stick with Spellsword, you pick, it doesn't matter because things start getting ugly at 9th level when both Arcane Strike and Improved Combat Expertise go on the list.
Just another user 03-31-05, 05:00 AM	What about having mutliple sheaths on a bandoleer (leather sash across the chest) that each carry a dagger? If a person has Quick Draw, that's +20 to each attack with a full attack. What about a caster that draw his weapon and then cast a ranged attack spell? (note that by the RAW he don't lose the +20 bonus because he didn't attack with the unsheated weapon) Consider that giving it to a character with Power Attack it mean a +BAB to damage for 1 attack, +2 BAB for 2 hands weapons or +BAB to AC if he use Expertise. (I'm not saying is broken, just to consider it) And of course you can draw as a free action if you have quick draw.
wonderland666 03-31-05, 09:05 AM	I would personally not allow the unlimited one.... tastes bad. However the so many uses per day sounds pretty reasonable. It is enough for the first attack in most of the fights they are likely to get into (which is pretty cool). But you do not have to worry about some spring attacker going to town with every attack they ever make being a sure thing. Just my opinion anyway. For continues, there is a rule (making Magic items) that this would be the price of a +20 item that would be 400 K for a ring. With only 3 Charge per Day it would be a fair trade., But there is already an item with some Pearls in the DMG, after one use of a pearl, the pear vanish......(gloves?)
Santrilla 03-31-05, 10:03 AM	At any rate, I think it shouldn't be a Scabbard of true striking, but more a ring or something to do with the arms or hands. Even one of the 'mental' magic item slots, because it's an insight bonus. Scabbard of keen edge basically makes your weapon sharper, which increases crit range. True strike makes you better at knowing when and where to hit your foe to deal damage. True strike, in itself, has nothing to do with the weapon and more to do with your own perception.
Roxlimn 03-31-05, 11:57 AM	It's probably best to put the enchantment on the weapon itself and allow it to cast the effect on the user. Having said that, I think the activation time should be special and take a full round action. That way, an enemy who was just standing there wailing at you could be subject to a +15 to hit +10 to damage Power Attack (at level 5) after a full round action to set up the attack. *insert outrageous anime cinematic here* I can even get behind allowing this item to do this once per encounter, and even possibly increasing the effect. If the PC will allow multicolored lights and flowers and ribbons into the weapon display effect, I could even get behind a Smite Evil effect on top of that as a ranged attack. Price? Maybe I'll just handwave it... It's just too good a laugh not to allow even for a session or two. Oh, back to the use-activated item. Ahem. +20 to hit three times a day as a use-activated effect? 6 000 seems a tad too cheap. I'll probably experiment with this item at 16 000 gp just to see if people will choose this or the Scabbard of Keen Edges. I have a feeling this Scabbard will be more popular...
Pennarin 03-31-05, 02:41 PM	Mmm, maybe a bracer(s) would be a good item, but the scabbard was chosen so it would be thematically coherent, and not because it fitted the appropriate item slot. It's probably best to put the enchantment on the weapon itself and allow it to cast the effect on the user. That's the same as having the scabbard cast it on you, so I don't see the point of changing it...