Anyspell and Archivists [Archive] - Wizards Community

Anyspell and Archivists [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
IMarvinTPA
03-14-06, 01:51 PM Hi,
What happens if an Archivist casts Anyspell?
Since he has no domain slots, does the spell just occupy the normal slot of anyspell?

Since he is an Intelligence caster, does he use Intelligence instead of Wisdom?

IMarv
Mouseferatu
03-14-06, 01:55 PM Archivists don't have domain slots. Therefore, they cannot cast a spell that requires domain slots.
tarkin
03-14-06, 02:22 PM Sometimes someone without Domain spells can get access to the spells on the list. Prime example is by using the feat Arcane Disciple.

When someone achieves acess to a Domain list using this type of method, they use their normal slot to cast the spells on that list, using the level on the list.

The method that grants acess tells you which stat to use.

Arcane Disciple for example, specifies that you use Wisdom instead of Intelligence or Charisma.
Mouseferatu
03-14-06, 02:34 PM Sometimes someone without Domain spells can get access to the spells on the list. Prime example is by using the feat Arcane Disciple.

When someone achieves acess to a Domain list using this type of method, they use their normal slot to cast the spells on that list, using the level on the list.

The method that grants acess tells you which stat to use.

Arcane Disciple for example, specifies that you use Wisdom instead of Intelligence or Charisma.

Yes, an archivist can get access to domain spells. But he doesn't have domain slots. Therefore, a spell that requires a domain slot--like anyspell--wouldn't work for him. Anyspell specifically says that you have to put the new spell in a domain slot; the archivist, therefore, has no place to put it, metaphorically speaking.
Elbethamore
03-14-06, 02:54 PM Just agreeing with Mouseferatu. The spell is worded very carefully to prevent abuses (even though it predates the Archivist class).
Emeramber
03-14-06, 11:42 PM Yes, an archivist can get access to domain spells. But he doesn't have domain slots. Therefore, a spell that requires a domain slot--like anyspell--wouldn't work for him. Anyspell specifically says that you have to put the new spell in a domain slot; the archivist, therefore, has no place to put it, metaphorically speaking.

As an odd related question, does that mean that it is essentially useless for the Initiate of Mystra? If it, as written, fills their domain slot then if they use it as a general spell (as the feat allows) they're giving up two slots, the general spell slot to cast the spell and the domain slot to store it in. I might be wrong, but that seems worse than useless.

There are three possibilities I see
1) It is worse than useless, ie it's RAW
2) It puts the spell into the domain slot, spontaneously refreshing and clearing out the domain slot if need be. There is nothing in the spell that indicates that it would work this way (in essence like a pearl of power, but clearing the slot, and iffhand I can't think of any effect that does that). This requires substantial interpretation without precedent, but it does keep the ability out of the hands of the Archivist while only partially gutting the Initiate.
3) It replaces the spell slot used with the (lower) spell slot memorized. This ability has more precedent (being closer to Mnemonic Enhancer, and how the spell normally works in practice), and seems to be how it was intended for the spell to work (and yes, I'm aware of the problems of trying to ascertain "intent") for the Initiate, but it offers it up to the Archivist
Moon-Lancer
03-15-06, 01:39 AM I think what happens is you put anyspell into your domain slot. You cast anyspell and prepare a arcane spell in the now empty domain slot.
Emeramber
03-15-06, 09:52 AM I think what happens is you put anyspell into your domain slot. You cast anyspell and prepare a arcane spell in the now empty domain slot.

My question was with regard to the Initiates of Mystra, who gain the spell as a general spell, as the interaction of Archivists can be extrapolated from this already existing mechanic for having Anyspell as a general spell. If I read your answer correctly, it seems that your opinion is that, as a general spell, it can only be memorized in a domain slot, as it would as a domain spell?
Merestil Haye
03-15-06, 10:22 AM Since the Initiate of Mystra feat says (iirc) that the featholder gets these spells on his class spell list, then he can prepare and cast them using general spell slots, because the wording of the feat changes the rules for him.
Emeramber
03-15-06, 11:12 AM Since the Initiate of Mystra feat says (iirc) that the featholder gets these spells on his class spell list, then he can prepare and cast them using general spell slots, because the wording of the feat changes the rules for him.

*nod* That part I get, at least in theory. My question is, "For an Initiate of Mystra, who is memorizing Anyspell in a third level generic spell slot, and has all of her other spell slots filled, including her domain slots, where does the arcane spell she memorizes when casting this spell get placed."

To me, logically, the arcane spell memorized is supposed to fill the slot that Anyspell was in. I doubt this interpretation would even be an issue if it weren't for people adamantly against the Archivist getting her grubby hands on it. Rules as written, the spell would still place it in the domain slot, which means that, as a general spell, it ends up costing TWO slots to use, the general slot AND the domain slot, which is generally less than useless.

(And yes, I know about Logic in D&D...)

(On a side note, Anyspell isn't the only awkward spell in the Spell domain. Mnemonic Enhancer is still listed as "Wizard Only" in the domain description)
Merestil Haye
03-15-06, 12:16 PM Having just read Anyspell, it appears that when the spell is cast, the spell you prepare takes up the spell slot used to originally prepare Anyspell, correct?

I dont see the Initiate of Mystra feat changing that rule. The spell will work the same way for an Initiate of Mystra and a non-Initiate. Therefore, if an Initiate uses a general spell slot to prepare an Anyspell, when cast the new spell occupies that same slot.

I don't own Heroes of Horror, so I'm not sure of the details of the Archivist. My memory says that the class is a divine caster, yes?

Arcane Disciple has a prerequisite "Ability to cast arcane spells". The feat adds the domain spells to the character's arcane spellcasting class list. If the Archivist is a divine caster, he cannot take Arcane Disciple and apply it to his Archivist class spell list at all. Remember, the spells are not Arcane spells; a caster with Arcane Disciple merely treats them as such because he has a feat that allows him to do so.

Problems only arise when the Archivist finds an Arcane scroll of such a Domain spell (at least if I remember the Archivist correctly).
IMarvinTPA
03-15-06, 12:29 PM The archivist class is one of the excerpts for Heros of Horror. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3

It is a divine caster class that has Cleric spells as its base spell list. However, divine writings of spells can be used to add to their prayer books (spell books.) Thus, if they find a divine scroll and copy it into their books, they can cast the spell. All you need is to find a scroll of Anyspell. (Clerics with Rune (free Scribe Scroll) and Spell domains. There are two deities who have these domains.)

Now a really scary idea is, if you ARE a cleric with this spell and you cast it and prepare a spell, then cast that spell, you can use the scrolls to get new spells out of your spell books!

IMarv
Merestil Haye
03-15-06, 01:01 PM The archivist class is one of the excerpts for Heros of Horror. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3

It is a divine caster class that has Cleric spells as its base spell list. However, divine writings of spells can be used to add to their prayer books (spell books.) Thus, if they find a divine scroll and copy it into their books, they can cast the spell. All you need is to find a scroll of Anyspell. (Clerics with Rune (free Scribe Scroll) and Spell domains. There are two deities who have these domains.)

Now a really scary idea is, if you ARE a cleric with this spell and you cast it and prepare a spell, then cast that spell, you can use the scrolls to get new spells out of your spell books!

IMarvThanks for that. It helps to know the class description.

It appears from the Anyspell description that the caster must have to hand an arcane spellbook or an arcane scroll of the spell to be prepared via the Anyspell. Once prepared, though, does it become a Divine spell, or is the caster empowered, by the magic of Anyspell, to cast the prepared spell as an Arcane spell?

Clearly the latter would prevent any abuses such as using Anyspell to prepare an arcane spell then create a Divine scroll of it to scribe into the character's prayerbook. I'm not at all sure whether that would break other safeguards though.

And lets face it, this sort of manipulation, if it were allowed, would cost time and money; something the DM could enforce.
IMarvinTPA
03-15-06, 01:16 PM Clearly the latter would prevent any abuses such as using Anyspell to prepare an arcane spell then create a Divine scroll of it to scribe into the character's prayerbook. I'm not at all sure whether that would break other safeguards though.

And lets face it, this sort of manipulation, if it were allowed, would cost time and money; something the DM could enforce.
You know, that's a question I hadn't even considered. I just wanted to be able to cast spells from captured spell books as an Archivist. I hadn't considered this as loop-hole to convert. (Mystic Thurge Wiz-Archivist with Alternate Source Spell feat from Dragon is the better fit for that.)

IMarv
Moon-Lancer
03-15-06, 07:39 PM well thinking about it,if your playing a faerun game, you just use the old anyspell as its campain specific and your burning a feat to get anyspell, but if your not using faerun, i dont think Mystra should be an option.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
IMarvinTPA 03-14-06, 01:51 PM	Hi, What happens if an Archivist casts Anyspell? Since he has no domain slots, does the spell just occupy the normal slot of anyspell? Since he is an Intelligence caster, does he use Intelligence instead of Wisdom? IMarv
Mouseferatu 03-14-06, 01:55 PM	Archivists don't have domain slots. Therefore, they cannot cast a spell that requires domain slots.
tarkin 03-14-06, 02:22 PM	Sometimes someone without Domain spells can get access to the spells on the list. Prime example is by using the feat Arcane Disciple. When someone achieves acess to a Domain list using this type of method, they use their normal slot to cast the spells on that list, using the level on the list. The method that grants acess tells you which stat to use. Arcane Disciple for example, specifies that you use Wisdom instead of Intelligence or Charisma.
Mouseferatu 03-14-06, 02:34 PM	Sometimes someone without Domain spells can get access to the spells on the list. Prime example is by using the feat Arcane Disciple. When someone achieves acess to a Domain list using this type of method, they use their normal slot to cast the spells on that list, using the level on the list. The method that grants acess tells you which stat to use. Arcane Disciple for example, specifies that you use Wisdom instead of Intelligence or Charisma. Yes, an archivist can get access to domain spells. But he doesn't have domain slots. Therefore, a spell that requires a domain slot--like anyspell--wouldn't work for him. Anyspell specifically says that you have to put the new spell in a domain slot; the archivist, therefore, has no place to put it, metaphorically speaking.
Elbethamore 03-14-06, 02:54 PM	Just agreeing with Mouseferatu. The spell is worded very carefully to prevent abuses (even though it predates the Archivist class).
Emeramber 03-14-06, 11:42 PM	Yes, an archivist can get access to domain spells. But he doesn't have domain slots. Therefore, a spell that requires a domain slot--like anyspell--wouldn't work for him. Anyspell specifically says that you have to put the new spell in a domain slot; the archivist, therefore, has no place to put it, metaphorically speaking. As an odd related question, does that mean that it is essentially useless for the Initiate of Mystra? If it, as written, fills their domain slot then if they use it as a general spell (as the feat allows) they're giving up two slots, the general spell slot to cast the spell and the domain slot to store it in. I might be wrong, but that seems worse than useless. There are three possibilities I see 1) It is worse than useless, ie it's RAW 2) It puts the spell into the domain slot, spontaneously refreshing and clearing out the domain slot if need be. There is nothing in the spell that indicates that it would work this way (in essence like a pearl of power, but clearing the slot, and iffhand I can't think of any effect that does that). This requires substantial interpretation without precedent, but it does keep the ability out of the hands of the Archivist while only partially gutting the Initiate. 3) It replaces the spell slot used with the (lower) spell slot memorized. This ability has more precedent (being closer to Mnemonic Enhancer, and how the spell normally works in practice), and seems to be how it was intended for the spell to work (and yes, I'm aware of the problems of trying to ascertain "intent") for the Initiate, but it offers it up to the Archivist
Moon-Lancer 03-15-06, 01:39 AM	I think what happens is you put anyspell into your domain slot. You cast anyspell and prepare a arcane spell in the now empty domain slot.
Emeramber 03-15-06, 09:52 AM	I think what happens is you put anyspell into your domain slot. You cast anyspell and prepare a arcane spell in the now empty domain slot. My question was with regard to the Initiates of Mystra, who gain the spell as a general spell, as the interaction of Archivists can be extrapolated from this already existing mechanic for having Anyspell as a general spell. If I read your answer correctly, it seems that your opinion is that, as a general spell, it can only be memorized in a domain slot, as it would as a domain spell?
Merestil Haye 03-15-06, 10:22 AM	Since the Initiate of Mystra feat says (iirc) that the featholder gets these spells on his class spell list, then he can prepare and cast them using general spell slots, because the wording of the feat changes the rules for him.
Emeramber 03-15-06, 11:12 AM	Since the Initiate of Mystra feat says (iirc) that the featholder gets these spells on his class spell list, then he can prepare and cast them using general spell slots, because the wording of the feat changes the rules for him. nod That part I get, at least in theory. My question is, "For an Initiate of Mystra, who is memorizing Anyspell in a third level generic spell slot, and has all of her other spell slots filled, including her domain slots, where does the arcane spell she memorizes when casting this spell get placed." To me, logically, the arcane spell memorized is supposed to fill the slot that Anyspell was in. I doubt this interpretation would even be an issue if it weren't for people adamantly against the Archivist getting her grubby hands on it. Rules as written, the spell would still place it in the domain slot, which means that, as a general spell, it ends up costing TWO slots to use, the general slot AND the domain slot, which is generally less than useless. (And yes, I know about Logic in D&D...) (On a side note, Anyspell isn't the only awkward spell in the Spell domain. Mnemonic Enhancer is still listed as "Wizard Only" in the domain description)
Merestil Haye 03-15-06, 12:16 PM	Having just read Anyspell, it appears that when the spell is cast, the spell you prepare takes up the spell slot used to originally prepare Anyspell, correct? I dont see the Initiate of Mystra feat changing that rule. The spell will work the same way for an Initiate of Mystra and a non-Initiate. Therefore, if an Initiate uses a general spell slot to prepare an Anyspell, when cast the new spell occupies that same slot. I don't own Heroes of Horror, so I'm not sure of the details of the Archivist. My memory says that the class is a divine caster, yes? Arcane Disciple has a prerequisite "Ability to cast arcane spells". The feat adds the domain spells to the character's arcane spellcasting class list. If the Archivist is a divine caster, he cannot take Arcane Disciple and apply it to his Archivist class spell list at all. Remember, the spells are not Arcane spells; a caster with Arcane Disciple merely treats them as such because he has a feat that allows him to do so. Problems only arise when the Archivist finds an Arcane scroll of such a Domain spell (at least if I remember the Archivist correctly).
IMarvinTPA 03-15-06, 12:29 PM	The archivist class is one of the excerpts for Heros of Horror. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3 It is a divine caster class that has Cleric spells as its base spell list. However, divine writings of spells can be used to add to their prayer books (spell books.) Thus, if they find a divine scroll and copy it into their books, they can cast the spell. All you need is to find a scroll of Anyspell. (Clerics with Rune (free Scribe Scroll) and Spell domains. There are two deities who have these domains.) Now a really scary idea is, if you ARE a cleric with this spell and you cast it and prepare a spell, then cast that spell, you can use the scrolls to get new spells out of your spell books! IMarv
Merestil Haye 03-15-06, 01:01 PM	The archivist class is one of the excerpts for Heros of Horror. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3 It is a divine caster class that has Cleric spells as its base spell list. However, divine writings of spells can be used to add to their prayer books (spell books.) Thus, if they find a divine scroll and copy it into their books, they can cast the spell. All you need is to find a scroll of Anyspell. (Clerics with Rune (free Scribe Scroll) and Spell domains. There are two deities who have these domains.) Now a really scary idea is, if you ARE a cleric with this spell and you cast it and prepare a spell, then cast that spell, you can use the scrolls to get new spells out of your spell books! IMarvThanks for that. It helps to know the class description. It appears from the Anyspell description that the caster must have to hand an arcane spellbook or an arcane scroll of the spell to be prepared via the Anyspell. Once prepared, though, does it become a Divine spell, or is the caster empowered, by the magic of Anyspell, to cast the prepared spell as an Arcane spell? Clearly the latter would prevent any abuses such as using Anyspell to prepare an arcane spell then create a Divine scroll of it to scribe into the character's prayerbook. I'm not at all sure whether that would break other safeguards though. And lets face it, this sort of manipulation, if it were allowed, would cost time and money; something the DM could enforce.
IMarvinTPA 03-15-06, 01:16 PM	Clearly the latter would prevent any abuses such as using Anyspell to prepare an arcane spell then create a Divine scroll of it to scribe into the character's prayerbook. I'm not at all sure whether that would break other safeguards though. And lets face it, this sort of manipulation, if it were allowed, would cost time and money; something the DM could enforce. You know, that's a question I hadn't even considered. I just wanted to be able to cast spells from captured spell books as an Archivist. I hadn't considered this as loop-hole to convert. (Mystic Thurge Wiz-Archivist with Alternate Source Spell feat from Dragon is the better fit for that.) IMarv
Moon-Lancer 03-15-06, 07:39 PM	well thinking about it,if your playing a faerun game, you just use the old anyspell as its campain specific and your burning a feat to get anyspell, but if your not using faerun, i dont think Mystra should be an option.