Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kevin, son of Loric 04-12-04, 01:48 PM	Just a quick question for all of the regulars here. To the best of your knowledge, has WoTC ever published an area of effect damaging spell with the force descriptor? And if they have, where was it? The reason I am wondering is my DM likes to throw us up against large groups of incorporeal undead. And as a wizard, it' not too nice to fire off one of your AoE spells at a group of four spectres only to have them all unaffected due to their incorporeal miss chance. And aside from a spell with the force descriptor, I don't know of a way to make sure that my spells affect them. Thanks for your help.
Seeker95 04-12-04, 02:26 PM	The wizard's best friend in such a situation is a cleric. :P
cwslyclgh 04-12-04, 02:30 PM	do not know if this will help but I wrote an article on force magic that is tentativly scheduled for the september issue of Dragon that has a couple of AOE Force-discriptor spells.
mbfu3k 04-12-04, 02:46 PM	Also note that the miss chance only applies to corporeal damage sources. It could be argued that if the caster of a spell is incorporeal, the source of the damage (ie, the caster - via the spell) is not corporeal, and therefore not subject to the miss chance. It's certainly not an unshakable argument, but if you can convince your DM, you could simply cast Ghostform (from T&B), and then Fireball away. Regardless, Ghostform is definately a spell worth having, especially when fighting incorporeal creatures.
Kyuketsukiouji 04-12-04, 02:52 PM	Forcewave and thunderlance are both good spells that work against incorporeal undead.
Kevin, son of Loric 04-12-04, 04:38 PM	Thanks for all the replies. Seeker95: Unfortunately, I have a small D&D group. Just two of us and the DM. A Wizard who thinks he's a fighter (me), a Rogue/Fighter (other PC), and a dead Cleric with a bad initiative roll that got level drained for 12 levels in the fist round of combat (the DM). A cleric would be nice, but we've been through so many already! cwslyclgh: I look forward to reading that article. mbfu3k: I had thought about using Ghostform that way, but as yet I have not had it approved by my DM. And, as my first time playing a Wizard, I would like to have spell effieciency. I'm used to playing sorcerers and having 5 spells of a given level a day. Wizards just run out of spells too soon! Kyuketsukiouji: Forcewave is a little low on the damage scale for my tastes. When faced with 4 spectres, I tend to want to get rid of them faster than forcewave would allow. As for Thunderlance, however, it is an excellent spell and is actually what I ended up using to solve our little spectre problem! By the way, it states in the description of Thunderlance that you use a modified strength score based on your level. It also states that the thunderlance can be wielded in one hand. My question is, could you use the thunderlance in two hands in order to receive 1.5 times strength bonus to damage?
Heron_Marked_Blade 04-12-04, 04:47 PM	Originally posted by Kevin, son of Loric My question is, could you use the thunderlance in two hands in order to receive 1.5 times strength bonus to damage? No. The weapon's strength modifier is not based on you applying extra force to its attacks. I.e. Your STR, or how many hands you're wielding it with, has nothing to do with its damage. Using two hands would not make the Thunderlance hit harder than it already does, since its strength is based on your caster level. That's my opinion.
Sunrider 04-12-04, 05:00 PM	All it takes is one casting of etherealness or a similar spell.
mbfu3k 04-12-04, 05:02 PM	Originally posted by Kevin, son of Loric mbfu3k: I had thought about using Ghostform that way, but as yet I have not had it approved by my DM. And, as my first time playing a Wizard, I would like to have spell effieciency. I'm used to playing sorcerers and having 5 spells of a given level a day. Wizards just run out of spells too soon! Wizards don't have to run out of spells, since they can make scrolls fairly cheaply. But, of course, scrolls are better suited to spells you use less often. Ghostform has many other uses as well, so it's not exactly a waste of a spell, but if you'd rather not have to use a spell, you could create a magic item, or do what I ended up doing (if you're high enough level): Get an ecalypse mount. They're listed in the Manual of the Planes, and their description includes rules for gaining them as a mount and specficially mentions that their incorporeality (at will! :cool: ) extends to their (accepted) rider. You don't even have to worry about bringing them into the dungeon, as you can just ride them through the walls. :) Only drawback is having to make a (one-time, so Limited Wish can help) DC 35 ride check... Another option, though you requested "official" material, is, obviously, researching your own [Force] spells. If you look at the other threads in this forum, you'll notice that quite a few have been posted recently.
Kevin, son of Loric 04-13-04, 08:33 AM	Again, thanks for all the discussion. Heron_Marked_Blade: I guessed as much, but was wanting a little clarification. Thanks. Sunrider: Etherealness is an eighth level spell. Ethereal Jaunt is seventh level. Ghostform lasts longer and is only a fifth level spell. As far as I know, it's one of the lower level spells that can get the job done, and that is what I am looking for. mbfu3k: An ecalypse, you say? Hrmm....yes, yes very interesting. Although I have the Manual of the Planes, I have never actually bothered to read it. It's always just been a source that I had around for my DM if he wanted it. Maybe I should check further into this...... Thanks all!!
nyphoenix79 04-13-04, 12:22 PM	Etherealness, or Ethereal jaunt would not work anyway. Casting that spell would put you on the ethereal plane (for a time) and since the incorporeal undead are on the material plane you could not affect them at all. Im sure this has been mentioned 100 times: etherealness does NOT equal incorporeal :banghead:
Vorpal Warhammer 04-13-04, 12:58 PM	There's a Transdimensional Spell feat in Unapproachable East that allows you to prepare spells that affect incorporeal creatures normally, and has the added bonus of being able to attack people inside a Rope Trick or other extradimensional space. It adds +1 to the prepared spell level. Edit: affect, not effect :embarrass
Kevin, son of Loric 04-13-04, 01:19 PM	Well! nyphoenix79: Of course, you are right. It's the "minor" details like this that keep me from being able to actually solve problems myself. Thanks. Vorpal Warhammer: Transdimensional Spell? Sounds worth checking into. After all, what else am I going to do with all those free metamagic feats? Thanks all.
Sproik 04-13-04, 02:32 PM	What is the problem with fireballing the incorporeal undead normally? They don't get a miss chance against magical energy attacks, only physical ones.
Vorpal Warhammer 04-13-04, 02:33 PM	Originally posted by Sproik What is the problem with fireballing the incorporeal undead normally? They don't get a miss chance against magical energy attacks, only physical ones. There's a miss chance against ALL corporeal attack forms. That includes +1 weapons and all spells without the [Force] descriptor. It's not like damage reduction.
Sproik 04-13-04, 02:37 PM	Originally posted by Vorpal Warhammer There's a miss chance against ALL corporeal attack forms. That includes +1 weapons and all spells without the [Force] descriptor. It's not like damage reduction. Having had a read of Incorporeality, it does indeed suggest that this is the case. Hmmm. I think I'm going to maintain direct energy damage being 100% effective in my own campaigns anyway.
Boondoggle 04-14-04, 07:56 AM	Originally posted by Sproik Having had a read of Incorporeality, it does indeed suggest that this is the case. Hmmm. I think I'm going to maintain direct energy damage being 100% effective in my own campaigns anyway. That doesn't really help Kevin, son of Loric now, does it? There was also a dragon mag a few months back that had templates for spells. IIRC, one of those templates could affect incorporeal critters.
Vanigo 04-14-04, 04:31 PM	It's not exactly area of effect, but the Player's Guide to Faerun has a spell called manyjaws that can attack multiple creatures. 3rd level, 1d4 per round per pair of jaws, 1 pair of jaws per level. 3 round duration. Also, I think there's an AE force spell in the BoVD, but I think it's a vile spell, or at least an [Evil] one.
kreynolds 04-14-04, 05:31 PM	Manyjaws, huh? Interesting. I'll have to take a look at that. I converted that over from 2e about six months after 3e came out. Should be interesting to see the difference.
Krelios 04-14-04, 05:47 PM	Etherealness, or Ethereal jaunt would not work anyway. Casting that spell would put you on the ethereal plane (for a time) and since the incorporeal undead are on the material plane you could not affect them at all. Im sure this has been mentioned 100 times: etherealness does NOT equal incorporeal Actually, yes it does. Check the ghost description: CREATING A GHOST “Ghost” is an acquired template that can be added to any aberration, animal, dragon, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, or plant. The creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature) must have a Charisma score of at least 6. A ghost uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here. Size and Type: The creature’s type changes to undead. Do not recalculate the creature’s base attack bonus, saves, or skill points. It gains the incorporeal subtype. Size is unchanged. Hit Dice: All current and future Hit Dice become d12s. Speed: Ghosts have a fly speed of 30 feet, unless the base creature has a higher fly speed, with perfect maneuverability. Armor Class: Natural armor is the same as the base creature’s but applies only to ethereal encounters. When the ghost manifests (see below), its natural armor bonus is +0, but it gains a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma modifier or +1, whichever is higher. Attack: A ghost retains all the attacks of the base creature, although those relying on physical contact do not affect creatures that are not ethereal. Full Attack: A ghost retains all the attacks of the base creature, although those relying on physical contact do not affect creatures that are not ethereal. Damage: Against ethereal creatures, a ghost uses the base creature’s damage values. Against nonethereal creatures, the ghost usually cannot deal physical damage at all but can use its special attacks, if any, when it manifests (see below). Special Attacks: A ghost retains all the special attacks of the base creature, although those relying on physical contact do not affect nonethereal creatures. The ghost also gains a manifestation ability plus one to three other special attacks as described below. The save DC against a special attack is equal to 10 + 1/2 ghost’s HD + ghost’s Cha modifier unless otherwise noted. Corrupting Gaze (Su): A ghost can blast living beings with a glance, at a range of up to 30 feet. Creatures that meet the ghost’s gaze must succeed on a Fortitude save or take 2d10 points of damage and 1d4 points of Charisma damage. Corrupting Touch (Su): A ghost that hits a living target with its incorporeal touch attack deals 1d6 points of damage. Against ethereal opponents, it adds its Strength modifier to attack and damage rolls. Against nonethereal opponents, it adds its Dexterity modifier to attack rolls only. Draining Touch (Su): A ghost that hits a living target with its incorporeal touch attack drains 1d4 points from any one ability score it selects. On each such successful attack, the ghost heals 5 points of damage to itself. Against ethereal opponents, it adds its Strength modifier to attack rolls only. Against nonethereal opponents, it adds its Dexterity modifier to attack rolls only. Frightful Moan (Su): A ghost can emit a frightful moan as a standard action. All living creatures within a 30-foot spread must succeed on a Will save or become panicked for 2d4 rounds. This is a sonic necromantic mind-affecting fear effect. A creature that successfully saves against the moan cannot be affected by the same ghost’s moan for 24 hours. Horrific Appearance (Su): Any living creature within 60 feet that views a ghost must succeed on a Fortitude save or immediately take 1d4 points of Strength damage, 1d4 points of Dexterity damage, and 1d4 points of Constitution damage. A creature that successfully saves against this effect cannot be affected by the same ghost’s horrific appearance for 24 hours. Malevolence (Su): Once per round, an ethereal ghost can merge its body with a creature on the Material Plane. This ability is similar to a magic jar spell (caster level 10th or the ghost’s Hit Dice, whichever is higher), except that it does not require a receptacle. To use this ability, the ghost must be manifested and it must try move into the target’s space; moving into the target’s space to use the malevolence ability does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The target can resist the attack with a successful Will save (DC 15 + ghost’s Cha modifier). A creature that successfully saves is immune to that same ghost’s malevolence for 24 hours, and the ghost cannot enter the target’s space. If the save fails, the ghost vanishes into the target’s body. Manifestation (Su): Every ghost has this ability. A ghost dwells on the Ethereal Plane and, as an ethereal creature, it cannot affect or be affected by anything in the material world. When a ghost manifests, it partly enters the Material Plane and becomes visible but incorporeal on the Material Plane. A manifested ghost can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons, or spells, with a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source. A manifested ghost can pass through solid objects at will, and its own attacks pass through armor. A manifested ghost always moves silently. A manifested ghost can strike with its touch attack or with a ghost touch weapon (see Ghostly Equipment, below). A manifested ghost remains partially on the Ethereal Plane, where is it not incorporeal. A manifested ghost can be attacked by opponents on either the Material Plane or the Ethereal Plane. The ghost’s incorporeality helps protect it from foes on the Material Plane, but not from foes on the Ethereal Plane. When a spellcasting ghost is not manifested and is on the Ethereal Plane, its spells cannot affect targets on the Material Plane, but they work normally against ethereal targets. When a spellcasting ghost manifests, its spells continue to affect ethereal targets and can affect targets on the Material Plane normally unless the spells rely on touch. A manifested ghost’s touch spells don’t work on nonethereal targets. A ghost has two home planes, the Material Plane and the Ethereal Plane. It is not considered extraplanar when on either of these planes. Telekinesis (Su): A ghost can use telekinesis as a standard action (caster level 12th or equal to the ghost’s HD, whichever is higher). When a ghost uses this power, it must wait 1d4 rounds before using it again. Special Qualities: A ghost has all the special qualities of the base creature as well as those described below. Rejuvenation (Su): In most cases, it’s difficult to destroy a ghost through simple combat: The “destroyed” spirit will often restore itself in 2d4 days. Even the most powerful spells are usually only temporary solutions. A ghost that would otherwise be destroyed returns to its old haunts with a successful level check (1d20 + ghost’s HD) against DC 16. As a rule, the only way to get rid of a ghost for sure is to determine the reason for its existence and set right whatever prevents it from resting in peace. The exact means varies with each spirit and may require a good deal of research. Turn Resistance (Ex): A ghost has +4 turn resistance. Abilities: Same as the base creature, except that the ghost has no Constitution score, and its Charisma score increases by +4. Skills: Ghosts have a +8 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Search, and Spot checks. Otherwise same as the base creature. Environment: Any, often as base creature. Organization: Solitary, gang (2–4), or mob (7–12). Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature +2. Treasure: None. Alignment: Any. Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature +5. Ghostly Equipment When a ghost forms, all its equipment and carried items usually become ethereal along with it. In addition, the ghost retains 2d4 items that it particularly valued in life (provided they are not in another creature’s possession). The equipment works normally on the Ethereal Plane but passes harmlessly through material objects or creatures. A weapon of +1 or better magical enhancement, however, can harm material creatures when the ghost manifests, but any such attack has a 50% chance to fail unless the weapon is a ghost touch weapon (just as magic weapons can fail to harm the ghost). The original material items remain behind, just as the ghost’s physical remains do. If another creature seizes the original, the ethereal copy fades away. This loss invariably angers the ghost, who stops at nothing to return the item to its original resting place.
nyphoenix79 04-14-04, 05:58 PM	The ghost is a special case becuase of its manifestation ability. Still doesnt change the fact that Etherealness or Ethereal Jaunt would make you ethereal and therefor unable to affect ANYTHING on the material plane.