AoO on fleeing turned undeads [Archive] - Wizards Community

AoO on fleeing turned undeads [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Anor
10-19-05, 08:59 AM Hello,

First, did'nt know where to put this rule question but here goes.

My cleric turned a powerful zombie (think it was a juju zombie) on his turn and they became turned. When they fled, I was entitled an AoO since I carried a heavy mace. Would my AoO dispell the turning effect if I took that AoO and hit the zombie?

I checked the rules and they say that the cleric is allowed to do ranged attack on turned undead but may not move closer than 10 feet (I think it was). So it does'nt seem like attacking in it self would break the turning. Would it be possible to strike them without losing the turning as an AoO when they flee?

Please, if possible, give references to the PHB/DMG.
tarkin
10-19-05, 11:05 AM AoO can not be done with ranged attacks, (unless you got a Prestige class special ability).

The ability clearly says you can do ranged attacks, which implies no melee attacks. If they meant you can attack them as long as you don't get within 5ft, they would have said that.

So no, you can't do an AoO without breaking the Turning.
Zherog
10-19-05, 11:16 AM Though an ally certainly could... ;)
Reff
10-19-05, 12:56 PM well I'm not sure about the specifics of JuJu Zombies, but for most undead, the first time that they try to get away from you they will probally take the 'withdraw' action, as described in the PHB p.143. This is beacuse the rules say that the turned undead flee from you by the BEST and fastest means available to them. That would prevent any AoO that you might do with a normal character. (reach weapons and large characters not withstanding) Even zombies, who are limited to a single move or standard action each round can begin a full round action (withdraw) with their single standard action (PHB 142).

Hope this helps- Reff

edit- as for the direct question. (I got a little sidetracked) the book on page 159 says you can attack them with ranged weapons (implied only). And those attacks have to be from at least 10 feet away. (i.e. you can't attack a cowering zombie cat from 5 feet away with any weapon without breaking the turning effect, even though the kitty has no reach to smack you with)
Jaid
10-19-05, 01:09 PM "best and fastest" means different things depending on which part you emphasise. you have emphasised best. if you had emphasised fastest, that would be a run action.
Shadowfax7
10-19-05, 03:15 PM . . . that would be a run action.
I believe you need a Con score of 9+ to run, thus no running for undead.
mvincent
10-19-05, 03:37 PM The ability clearly says you can do ranged attacks, which implies no melee attacks.It's subject to interpretation. The rules say:
"If you approach within 10 feet of them, however, they overcome being turned and act normally. (You can stand within 10 feet without breaking the turning effect—you just can’t approach them.) You can attack them with ranged attacks (from at least 10 feet away), and others can attack them in any fashion, without breaking the turning effect."

The ranged attack vs. melee attack thing may not be really what they are implying (i.e. the writer's could've been merely stating an obvious: that using ranged attacks is a good way to attack while staying 10' away). If you disallowed the AoO, you should also disallow a ranged attack within 10', even though you hadn't advanced (possible if the undead were moving away very slowly). Taking an AoO as they are runnning by doesn't seem like you are advancing on them (more like they are advancing past you), but it seems like a DM (or FAQ) call.

If they meant you can attack them as long as you don't get within 5ft, they would have said that. Didn't they? (I'm assuming you mean 10').
Centauri
10-19-05, 03:37 PM I believe you need a Con score of 9+ to run, thus no running for undead. Interesting. I've never heard that, and I'm pretty sure it's incorrect. Here's what the rules say:

Run
You can run as a full-round action. (If you do, you do not also get a 5-foot step.) When you run, you can move up to four times your speed in a straight line (or three times your speed if you’re in heavy armor). You lose any Dexterity bonus to AC unless you have the Run feat

You can run for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution score, but after that you must make a DC 10 Constitution check to continue running. You must check again each round in which you continue to run, and the DC of this check increases by 1 for each check you have made. When you fail this check, you must stop running. A character who has run to his limit must rest for 1 minute (10 rounds) before running again. During a rest period, a character can move no faster than a normal move action.

You can’t run across difficult terrain or if you can’t see where you’re going.

A run represents a speed of about 12 miles per hour for an unencumbered human. Emphasis mine.

Undead don't have a Constitution score, but neither are they susceptible to fatigue, so any undead that can run could do so indefinitely. Running (unlike some other full-round actions) can't be started and ended in two different rounds, so your typical zombie, limited as it is to one action a round, wouldn't be able to run.
cwslyclgh
10-19-05, 11:52 PM "best and fastest" means different things depending on which part you emphasise. you have emphasised best. if you had emphasised fastest, that would be a run action.

personaly I think you need to give both equal weight which would generaly mean using the withdraw action to get away from melee combat if they are in it, and then running on thier next turn.
Shatteredtower
10-20-05, 12:39 AM Interesting. I've never heard that, and I'm pretty sure it's incorrect.Back in 3.0, that was subject to debate. As of 3.5, the place to check is under the MM's entry for nonabilities on pg 312, specifically Constitution:

"A creature with no Constitution cannot tire and thus can run indefinitely without tiring (unless the creature's description says it cannot run)."

This decisively confirms your position, Centauri. Thanks for making me look it up, because I'd gotten myself scrambled between a 3.0 ruling I'd seen somewhere (might have been in the Fiend Folio, which is admittedly noncore) and the actual 3.5 ruling.

Curiously, back in 3.0, the speed entry for golems said: "Cannot run" after each golem entry, but there is no longer any indication that a golem cannot run now. Be warned. In fact, the only core creature I can find that is now unable to run is a zombie, simply because running is a full round action. I might have missed something, however.

personaly I think you need to give both equal weight which would generaly mean using the withdraw action to get away from melee combat if they are in it, and then running on thier next turn.I have to disagree. "Best" can just as easily be described as "Whatever gets me furthest away most quickly," as "Whatever gets me away with the least amount of risk." Teleport will be preferable to walking, and dropping through the floor or into the ethereal plane will be preferable to taking a withdraw action. Otherwise, what we've got is a wight that spends each round getting knocked about by the people who keep charging after it, rather than hoping to eventually outrun them because it can go forever.
Anor
10-20-05, 04:54 AM The question here really is'nt if it's an ranged attack or melee attack AFAIK. The question is how you move towards the undead that is turned. Think of it this way, they are scared as hell by the turning and cannot do anything else than just flee away from you. If you then move closer than 10 feet away from it, the turning breaks.

But would the turning really break if the undead made a run from you and you attacked it with a melee attack AoO? I don't think so. The ranged attack option from more than 10 feet away clearly makes attacking in it self OK. So attacking does'nt break the turning. But moving closer than 10 feet away does. But that has nothing to do with a melee AoO or?

I still feel that AoO should be allowed, if ranged are allowed from 10 feet away or more.
Shatteredtower
10-20-05, 07:06 AM I still feel that AoO should be allowed, if ranged are allowed from 10 feet away or more.Perhaps. However, the only attack you are specifically permitted is a ranged attack from at least 10 feet away. You can stand closer than that, but nothing is said about being able to attack from closer than that, a restriction not placed on allies.

I'm certainly not saying you're wrong, however. Of more importance to me is that I don't find your ruling to be unbalanced either.
Anor
10-20-05, 03:46 PM Where could one find the real answer (offical statement) to such a question? I know there is TheSage, but I never get any returns from it. Dont know if my questions are not answerable or if there is some other problem, but last few mails havent got returned.

Would be nice to hear an official response to this question. Or atleast here what the majority of you guys do in such a situation.
cwslyclgh
10-20-05, 06:06 PM I know there is TheSage, but I never get any returns from it. Dont know if my questions are not answerable or if there is some other problem, but last few mails havent got returned. last time I asked, I was told that the sage no longer replies directly to emails, if you send him a question you need to look in dragon magazine to see if he answers it... or wait to see if it shows up in the FAQ which is comprised entirly of his answers to questions.

alternativly you could send the question to custserv, but if you do that I suggest you send it at least 3 differrent times (and hope that two of the answers are the same so you can go with that one.)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Anor 10-19-05, 08:59 AM	Hello, First, did'nt know where to put this rule question but here goes. My cleric turned a powerful zombie (think it was a juju zombie) on his turn and they became turned. When they fled, I was entitled an AoO since I carried a heavy mace. Would my AoO dispell the turning effect if I took that AoO and hit the zombie? I checked the rules and they say that the cleric is allowed to do ranged attack on turned undead but may not move closer than 10 feet (I think it was). So it does'nt seem like attacking in it self would break the turning. Would it be possible to strike them without losing the turning as an AoO when they flee? Please, if possible, give references to the PHB/DMG.
tarkin 10-19-05, 11:05 AM	AoO can not be done with ranged attacks, (unless you got a Prestige class special ability). The ability clearly says you can do ranged attacks, which implies no melee attacks. If they meant you can attack them as long as you don't get within 5ft, they would have said that. So no, you can't do an AoO without breaking the Turning.
Zherog 10-19-05, 11:16 AM	Though an ally certainly could... ;)
Reff 10-19-05, 12:56 PM	well I'm not sure about the specifics of JuJu Zombies, but for most undead, the first time that they try to get away from you they will probally take the 'withdraw' action, as described in the PHB p.143. This is beacuse the rules say that the turned undead flee from you by the BEST and fastest means available to them. That would prevent any AoO that you might do with a normal character. (reach weapons and large characters not withstanding) Even zombies, who are limited to a single move or standard action each round can begin a full round action (withdraw) with their single standard action (PHB 142). Hope this helps- Reff edit- as for the direct question. (I got a little sidetracked) the book on page 159 says you can attack them with ranged weapons (implied only). And those attacks have to be from at least 10 feet away. (i.e. you can't attack a cowering zombie cat from 5 feet away with any weapon without breaking the turning effect, even though the kitty has no reach to smack you with)
Jaid 10-19-05, 01:09 PM	"best and fastest" means different things depending on which part you emphasise. you have emphasised best. if you had emphasised fastest, that would be a run action.
Shadowfax7 10-19-05, 03:15 PM	. . . that would be a run action. I believe you need a Con score of 9+ to run, thus no running for undead.
mvincent 10-19-05, 03:37 PM	The ability clearly says you can do ranged attacks, which implies no melee attacks.It's subject to interpretation. The rules say: "If you approach within 10 feet of them, however, they overcome being turned and act normally. (You can stand within 10 feet without breaking the turning effect—you just can’t approach them.) You can attack them with ranged attacks (from at least 10 feet away), and others can attack them in any fashion, without breaking the turning effect." The ranged attack vs. melee attack thing may not be really what they are implying (i.e. the writer's could've been merely stating an obvious: that using ranged attacks is a good way to attack while staying 10' away). If you disallowed the AoO, you should also disallow a ranged attack within 10', even though you hadn't advanced (possible if the undead were moving away very slowly). Taking an AoO as they are runnning by doesn't seem like you are advancing on them (more like they are advancing past you), but it seems like a DM (or FAQ) call. If they meant you can attack them as long as you don't get within 5ft, they would have said that. Didn't they? (I'm assuming you mean 10').
Centauri 10-19-05, 03:37 PM	I believe you need a Con score of 9+ to run, thus no running for undead. Interesting. I've never heard that, and I'm pretty sure it's incorrect. Here's what the rules say: Run You can run as a full-round action. (If you do, you do not also get a 5-foot step.) When you run, you can move up to four times your speed in a straight line (or three times your speed if you’re in heavy armor). You lose any Dexterity bonus to AC unless you have the Run feat You can run for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution score, but after that you must make a DC 10 Constitution check to continue running. You must check again each round in which you continue to run, and the DC of this check increases by 1 for each check you have made. When you fail this check, you must stop running. A character who has run to his limit must rest for 1 minute (10 rounds) before running again. During a rest period, a character can move no faster than a normal move action. You can’t run across difficult terrain or if you can’t see where you’re going. A run represents a speed of about 12 miles per hour for an unencumbered human. Emphasis mine. Undead don't have a Constitution score, but neither are they susceptible to fatigue, so any undead that can run could do so indefinitely. Running (unlike some other full-round actions) can't be started and ended in two different rounds, so your typical zombie, limited as it is to one action a round, wouldn't be able to run.
cwslyclgh 10-19-05, 11:52 PM	"best and fastest" means different things depending on which part you emphasise. you have emphasised best. if you had emphasised fastest, that would be a run action. personaly I think you need to give both equal weight which would generaly mean using the withdraw action to get away from melee combat if they are in it, and then running on thier next turn.
Shatteredtower 10-20-05, 12:39 AM	Interesting. I've never heard that, and I'm pretty sure it's incorrect.Back in 3.0, that was subject to debate. As of 3.5, the place to check is under the MM's entry for nonabilities on pg 312, specifically Constitution: "A creature with no Constitution cannot tire and thus can run indefinitely without tiring (unless the creature's description says it cannot run)." This decisively confirms your position, Centauri. Thanks for making me look it up, because I'd gotten myself scrambled between a 3.0 ruling I'd seen somewhere (might have been in the Fiend Folio, which is admittedly noncore) and the actual 3.5 ruling. Curiously, back in 3.0, the speed entry for golems said: "Cannot run" after each golem entry, but there is no longer any indication that a golem cannot run now. Be warned. In fact, the only core creature I can find that is now unable to run is a zombie, simply because running is a full round action. I might have missed something, however. personaly I think you need to give both equal weight which would generaly mean using the withdraw action to get away from melee combat if they are in it, and then running on thier next turn.I have to disagree. "Best" can just as easily be described as "Whatever gets me furthest away most quickly," as "Whatever gets me away with the least amount of risk." Teleport will be preferable to walking, and dropping through the floor or into the ethereal plane will be preferable to taking a withdraw action. Otherwise, what we've got is a wight that spends each round getting knocked about by the people who keep charging after it, rather than hoping to eventually outrun them because it can go forever.
Anor 10-20-05, 04:54 AM	The question here really is'nt if it's an ranged attack or melee attack AFAIK. The question is how you move towards the undead that is turned. Think of it this way, they are scared as hell by the turning and cannot do anything else than just flee away from you. If you then move closer than 10 feet away from it, the turning breaks. But would the turning really break if the undead made a run from you and you attacked it with a melee attack AoO? I don't think so. The ranged attack option from more than 10 feet away clearly makes attacking in it self OK. So attacking does'nt break the turning. But moving closer than 10 feet away does. But that has nothing to do with a melee AoO or? I still feel that AoO should be allowed, if ranged are allowed from 10 feet away or more.
Shatteredtower 10-20-05, 07:06 AM	I still feel that AoO should be allowed, if ranged are allowed from 10 feet away or more.Perhaps. However, the only attack you are specifically permitted is a ranged attack from at least 10 feet away. You can stand closer than that, but nothing is said about being able to attack from closer than that, a restriction not placed on allies. I'm certainly not saying you're wrong, however. Of more importance to me is that I don't find your ruling to be unbalanced either.
Anor 10-20-05, 03:46 PM	Where could one find the real answer (offical statement) to such a question? I know there is TheSage, but I never get any returns from it. Dont know if my questions are not answerable or if there is some other problem, but last few mails havent got returned. Would be nice to hear an official response to this question. Or atleast here what the majority of you guys do in such a situation.
cwslyclgh 10-20-05, 06:06 PM	I know there is TheSage, but I never get any returns from it. Dont know if my questions are not answerable or if there is some other problem, but last few mails havent got returned. last time I asked, I was told that the sage no longer replies directly to emails, if you send him a question you need to look in dragon magazine to see if he answers it... or wait to see if it shows up in the FAQ which is comprised entirly of his answers to questions. alternativly you could send the question to custserv, but if you do that I suggest you send it at least 3 differrent times (and hope that two of the answers are the same so you can go with that one.)