Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CrimsonRyoko 11-03-03, 02:31 AM	Ok, so i am playing a Sorcerer/Mystic, soon to be Mystic Theurge. He loves both magics and tries to do his best to blend them, but has yet to actually bear any fruit with his studies. He has maxed Spellcraft, Knowledge (Arcana, and Religion), and plenty of bonuses to both as well. (i think its 15, 12, and 12 respectively at level 7) Well i have had an idea rolling about in my head since i made this char, and my DM finds the idea quite intriguing as well, but i will tell ya right now we play a pretty powerful campaign so me being this combo of spellcasters isnt the prettiest sight in game, which also allows for a little extra umph when it comes to new spells. Anyway onto the idea! Pretty much this would be a spell that both burns a Spell known in both Sorcerer and Mystic, and a spell per day in both classes for its specific level. Thus it would be quite more powerful then general spells of its level, using both spellslots and spells per day. Heres an idea of what i mean, but this IS IN NO WAY A BASIS FOR THIS TYPE OF SPELLS. Burning Aid Divine Evocation Level: Arcane and Divine 2 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100ft. + 10ft./level) Target: Area 15-ft.-radius spread. Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Reflex Half/Will Half (harmless) See Text. Spell Resistance: Yes Burning aid is a spell meant to be thrown into the thick of melee combat. It was devised by those in touch with both the destructive powers of Arcane Spells, and the healing touch of Divine Spells. This spell acts upon the casters will doing the following to all within its blast radius. Every enemy creature within the blast is dealt 4d6 fire damage per 6 total caster levels (combine arcane and divine for this purpose*) and every friendly creature is healed 2d8 per every 6 total caster levels (combine arcane and divine for this purpose*). *If the character has more then one arcane or divine spellcasting class, choose which classes you will add for this effect. Now thats a rough idea, and im sure it isnt too well balanced, but thats why im here, to get some input from all types of gamers. Trust me, even the gamy trolls opinions matter in a small way, but im seriously looking for constructive criticism. All you veterans out there whom could make your own splat books with all your made up spells lend me a hand, i love this idea, but i dont want to make it too game breaking!
CrimsonRyoko 11-03-03, 12:26 PM	No one?
Seeker95 11-03-03, 02:59 PM	Well, I was one of the folks that clicked on it, read it, and moved on. I have no suggestions in my feedback. I just don't like it.
CrimsonRyoko 11-03-03, 03:13 PM	Fair enough, it certainly isnt for everyone and goes heavily against the rules i suppose, but i found the concept neat. Thanks for atleast that, much appreciated, a non response is better then silence. Anyone else?
Xarrith 11-03-03, 07:03 PM	Does that spell reduce the number of spells known by one (effectively, it's a 2-for-1?) Do I understand that by casting it, you use up 2 slots per day? That's still one heckuva spell, even if it costs that much to use. I'm guessing you have at least 12 caster levels that apply, so that's 8d6 fire damage to every enemy and 4d8 healing for every friend. That's scary. I would run from you if I saw you coming down the street. :)
Frodo Lives 11-03-03, 08:40 PM	In most cases though, two low level spells do not equal one high level spell. 1 2nd level + 1 2nd level != a 4th level spell Most low level spells are not as useful as a high level spell. If the DM gave you a choice that you could sacrifice 2 2nd level spell slots to gain a 4th level spell slot, most cases you would do it. Combining divine and arcane spells into a single spell is an interesting idea. But this does seem to be overpowered for it's cost. But that's only my opinion.
CrimsonRyoko 11-03-03, 09:43 PM	Yes - this spell costs 1 spell known for Arcane and one spell known for Divine, and then goes on to use one spell slot for arcane and one spell slot for divine per use. 2 Known Slots used 2 Spells a Day used per casting. Yeah i wasnt sure about the damage/heal and how to deal it per level, i was trying to make it in line with Fireball and Cure Moderate, both 3rd level spells. The 6/per was prolly too low, maybe 8 per? Given at lvl 20 you will be a lvl 30 in regards to caster level. . . . DOH i didnt even think of ECasterL from like orang ioun stones. . . . i think ill make it based off of Character Caster level instead, for every level you have taken in a Caster Type Class you get a Point towards the 6/per dice. . . . I think im even confused now! Burning Aid Divine Evocation Level: Arcane and Divine 2 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100ft. + 10ft./level) Target: Area 15-ft.-radius spread. Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Reflex Half/Will Half (harmless) See Text. Spell Resistance: Yes Burning aid is a spell meant to be thrown into the thick of melee combat. It was devised by those in touch with both the destructive powers of Arcane Spells, and the healing touch of Divine Spells. This spell acts upon the casters will doing the following to all within its blast radius. Every enemy creature within the blast is dealt 2d6 fire damage per 4 Caster Character Levels*, and every friendly creature is healed 2d8 per 4 Caster Character Levels* *Each actual level taken in a caster type class, duel progression via Mystic Theurge counts as 1 per level.
Thelon Fairblade 11-04-03, 09:29 AM	I had a magic concept like this back in 1e. It was called Multi-phased magic, and its primary attribute was the ability to pierce magical defenses. A cleric/mage could expend two 1st level spells to fire off a multi-phased magic missile which did slightly more damage, inflicted half damage through a Shield spell, and was considered 2nd level for the purposes of defenses like Spell turning, globe of invulnerability, Magic Resistance, etc. My suggestion, then, would be to keep the rough power level of the spell the same (2nd level, in your example spell), and reduce/remove penalties or add something "special". A "damage enemies and help friends" spell is way more effective than a "damage enemies and odn't hurt friends", for example: Burning Aid (Fairblade version) Divine Evocation Level: Arcane and Divine 2 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100ft. + 10ft./level) Target: Area 15-ft.-radius spread. Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Reflex Half/Will Half (harmless) See Text. Spell Resistance: Yes Burning Aid is a spell meant to be thrown into the thick of melee combat. It was devised by those in touch with both the destructive powers of Arcane Spells, and the healing touch of Divine Spells. This spell acts upon the casters will doing the following to all within its blast radius. Every enemy creature within the blast is dealt 1d4 fire damage per Caster Level (max 5d4); friendly/allied creatures in the blast are unharmed, and recieve a +1 morale bonus to attacks for 1 round. (Burning Hands + limited Bless + friends aren't harmed)
CrimsonRyoko 11-04-03, 04:04 PM	Not a bad idea, but i also need to make it worth it for a Sorc/Mystic (which i play) to use up a slot in each class for it. I might use your idea thou, and just boost a little, i dunno, this is still a baby idea :) Ill toss your version to my DM as well :) Thanks for the feedback.
Xarrith 11-04-03, 05:49 PM	My brain hurts trying to think about this. I'm intrigued, but not a player of spellcasters myself (which is probably why my brain hurts thinking about it). What's the spell level of this spell when your character goes to cast it? Level 4? Level 8? What is the minimum number of caster levels a person could have in order to gain this spell and cast it? With that cleared up, you can compare its damage to the damage dealt by any spell of the same level, and increase it a bit (because it costs more than a normal spell of that level). When you know how many minimum caster levels you're talking about, the above sentence will be even easier to clarify. Essentially, I'm thinking you need the spell to do 1/2 more dice damage than the comparable Fireball of the same level; and you want the healing to do 1/2 the dice of the Heal spell of the same level. That is effectively twice the spell for its level, since it is theoretically costing twice the normal amount. I think my reasoning is sound here, and if it's not, someone will say so and that will further your cause :)
CrimsonRyoko 11-04-03, 06:21 PM	Actually thats almost exactly what i was trying to do (thou maybe in reverse), get it to do about equal to both Fireball and Cure Moderate, only as a spell level lower, but costing 2 slots/known. Its a lvl 2/2 spell Its power is that of a weak Fireball, and a weak Cure Moderate both 3/3 spells BUT you also get the ability to harm without fireballs drawbacks, and you can cure more people, so in actuallity that spell is way too good for its level. In effect it is a Cure Moderate/Light? (Mass) and a Fireball without the chance of hurting friends. Cure M/L(mass) would prolly be a lvl 3-4 spell Fireball with no drawbacks is actually prolly a lvl 5-8 spell because you would need metamagic feats to do it. (Im breaking this down as you might a magic item) So i would prolly have to make it Cure Light (Mass), and Fireball with 1/2Damage per lvl to even make it close to a 2/2.
murte 11-04-03, 08:31 PM	My $.02 The spell is too powerful. Here is why: Cure Light Mass is a 5th level spell, a holey fireball is equivilant to a 6th level spell. It is a great concept though. I think you should scale it down. Let me see if I can find a good fit for what I would allow... Using the Cure Moderate, Mass as a basis, then mix it with a Chain Lightning spell. This gives us two 6th level spells, one of which is basically a Contigent spell (whenever I cast spell A spell B goes off too) which is equal to a Quickened or Twin Spell so add+4 to the level needed. So it would be a 10th level slot. However, you are using two slots, so I'd take down a notch and make it a Arcane 8 and Divine 8 spell. In Tome and Blood there is another feat called Chain Spell which would allow you to "Flame Arrow" up to your caster level of creatures (you choose who gets hit) combine with Cure Light, Mass and then apply said formula gets you an Arcane 7 and Divine 7 spell. So to combine two 0 level spells it would take one 2nd level slot from both lists, and to combine two 1st level spells would take up one 3rd level slot from both lists.
CrimsonRyoko 11-04-03, 08:45 PM	Yes i agree that the spells are a bit overpowered, well alot :) thats why its a rough idea, and the main reason i posted it here, to get feedback from those wiser then i am. Heres a different version, and im going for a 2nd level slot spell because i will be getting that as an option soon :) Burning Aid Divine Evocation Level: Arcane and Divine 2 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100ft. + 10ft./level) Target: Area 15-ft.-radius spread. Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Reflex Half/Will Half (harmless) See Text. Spell Resistance: Yes Burning aid is a spell meant to be thrown into the thick of melee combat. It was devised by those in touch with both the destructive powers of Arcane Spells, and the healing touch of Divine Spells. This spell acts upon the casters will doing the following to all within its blast radius. Each enemy creature within the blast radius is delt 1d4 fire damage per 2 arcane caster levels (max 5d4), and heals all friendly units 1d2 per divine caster levels (max 5d2). Hows that?
Rabe 11-05-03, 04:55 AM	As player I would take it, as DM I shoot the designer on sight :) I would probably allow a spell doing harm to enemies while healing the allies, but it would be at least 7th level. The first spell which can do this effect is Mass Inflict Light Wounds at 5th, and it harms/heals anyone in its area, depending only on the alive/undead status of those in the area. So a spell able to harm anyone (not only undead) and able to differentiate between allies and enemies has to be higher in my opinion. Second, the Inflict spell deals only 1 die of damage plus a small variable. A spell with multiple dice with a given progression becomes usable for feats like Empower, while the Inflict is limited there. It also uses an energy form, making it usable with Energy Admixture, which is also a no-no for the Inflict. If someone allows that effect as a 2nd level spell he is going to wish he had not later on, when metamagic starts to be used. Rabe
Thelon Fairblade 11-05-03, 10:40 AM	Ditto, Rabe. First, forget the healing aspect. Way overpowers the spell. Second, if you ignore my first comment, don't use scaling on the healing, even d2s. Always think like this as a general rule for combining spells: Spell Level X + Spell Level Y = Spell Level X + Y + 1 Fireball (3) + Mass CLW (5) = 9th level spell Why? because at the very least you are saving an action by doing two spells at once (something impossible in 3.5e without Qucken Spell). If your goal is a 2nd level spell, you need to be looking at "Burning Hands" and "Cure Light Wounds". Perhaps the d8+level healing is spread among your allies evenly (most likely resulting in 1 or maybe 2 points of healing each). [But you'd really need to explain why the flames hurt "bad guys" and help friends.] The fact that you are doing it all at once is compensated for by causing you to use 2 spell slots at once. And, note, basing it off burning hands means the effect comes from *you*, not a burst with range (that should be reserved for 3rd level spells like fireball). If I was feeling very lenient as a GM, I *might* allow your 2nd level combined spell to combine two 2nd level spells. (I definately would not allow anything more powerful than that.) So, perhaps I would allow the burst-at-range, with burning hands damage profile, and maybe "1 point of healing per 2 caster levels (max 5)" per ally. And cap the number of allies, perhaps at 1/2 caster level (max 5), or maybe a flat maximum of 5, or maybe even 6 (the number of allies you can touch with a full round action); or perhaps, 1 ally per point of spellcating stat bonus (i.e. 18 WIS/INT gives 4 allies). Some other comparison rules: Book of Exalted Deeds has a feat called Purify Spell. Costs +1 spell level, increases the damage dice against evil creatures 1 step (d6 becomes d8), does half damage to neutral, and no damage at all to allies. So ignoring the "exalted" requirement completely, a "fireball that doesn't hurt my allies" should at least be Spell level 4, provided your allies are all of Good alignment. As a different mechanic: Psionics has a power/spell called Mental Rage that blasts everyone nearby. The Psion can spend extra power (i.e. additional spell levels) to prevent damage to individual targets (presumably his allies).
RaceBannon42 11-07-03, 04:25 PM	Drawbacks..... uses two spells known slots Burns two spells allowed per day Advantages...... Mass Cure moderate/light wounds as a 2nd level spell Lower damage Fireball that only harms opponents as a 2nd level spell Effectively cast two spells with one action Very neat idea IMO but as written it is very overpowered. It either needs to be scaled back a lot or leveled up a lot.
RaceBannon42 11-07-03, 04:25 PM	Drawbacks..... uses two spells known slots Burns two spells allowed per day Advantages...... Mass Cure moderate/light wounds as a 2nd level spell Lower damage Fireball that only harms opponents as a 2nd level spell Effectively cast two spells with one action Very neat idea IMO but as writing it is very overpowered. It either needs to be scaled back a lot or leveled up a lot.
CrimsonRyoko 11-07-03, 06:16 PM	Yeah i know, i love the idea, but i also know what i did put was mass overpowered at first. Ive yet to come up with a balanced version of anything yet, as i have been working 12 hour days the past week, and only get online at mu lunch break, but im still thinking. One thing i have to remember is that i cannot make the spells so powerful in upper levels that they are as strong as a straight caster class. i.e. A Sorc5/Mystic5/MT10 CANNOT have spells as powerful as a Wiz20/Cler20/orSor20etc, etc. The one way i could get spells to be close to the power of a straight caster is allowing spells to use up more slots, and more spells known. i.e. Burning Aid as a lvl 7 spell, but taking up 3 spells known of both arcane and divine, and using 3 spells per day of lvl 7 spells on both sides as well. This makes the spells useable less, and they cost alot more, but can be cooler. But my main want out of this is char flavor, i personally think a Sorcerer/Mystic would be able to blend their magics at a certain point, i mean its all innate to them in the end. But thats just my opinion :)
Rabe 11-08-03, 06:06 AM	The whole point of going straight as a caster is to be at the peak of the profession. Anyone going in two directions (arcane and divine here), must by reason of balance (and common sense) not be allowed to wield the same power, no matter what he does. All of the hybrid classes like the MT allow to get the character better advancement as if they would just dual class (as wizard/cleric in this case) anyway. (Classes like the hybrid from Dragon 313 (Mind Mage) and its pertaining feats can only have been designed by a munchkin...) Rabe
CrimsonRyoko 11-08-03, 04:50 PM	Yeah i know, and thats why itll be hard for me to make spells that are worth their sacrifice, and be useful, but not amazingly powerful. Maybe i can think of spells that do things no others do. . . . but there isnt much! lol Thanks for all the input, as of right now this idea is kinda in limbo, ill reply if i ever come back to it!