Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Boondoggle 04-19-04, 03:45 AM	Arcane Disciple [General] (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040418a&page=3) has just crossed a major line in the sand: It lets mages cast heal. Granted, it is only once per day, but the prerequisites are a joke. I realize this is just my initial knee-jerk reaction to the feat, but it opens a giant can off worms that I don't like, especially with the plethora of available domains. Edit: I just realized another ill effect, namely that of mages being able to use wands of CLW, & cetera.
cwslyclgh 04-19-04, 03:54 AM	I don;t see a problem with it... but if it bothers you, just don;t use it in your games... everything in the complete books is "completly" optional ;)
Boondoggle 04-19-04, 04:12 AM	I was hoping for an enlightening discussion of the balance issues, not someone telling me optional material is optional... :bored:
Christian Landry 04-19-04, 04:13 AM	Of course, that wizard would need to have a Wisdom of 16 to cast harm. And if he does, he might have been shooting for Mystic Theurge anyway. It's also a touch spell. Maybe not a major issue for wizards with stoneskin or greater invisibility and such, but given that they'll usually use harm on something with a lot of hit points and a weak Will save (i.e. tank), they might have to think twice about it.
Sisyfos 04-19-04, 04:33 AM	It is a great feat for sorcerers though. Getting domains for sorcerers to add spells known has been rather tricky business. Now it is up to just taking the right feat. This also opens up some prestige classes to arcane casters which were closed so far. Thaumaturgist being one of them. None of the examples I can think of now are unbalancing, but I am pretty certain some such examples exist. The new sourcebooks are mostly powerups when ever they come up. I am not surprised if this happens to be one of those books. Sisyfos
BlaineTog 04-19-04, 04:38 AM	...It's a feat that basically converts arcane castings into divine casters and allows them to then cast healing/inflicting spells. What's the problem? It's still basically divine healing since you have to pick a deity and you need a high wisdom...
Polaris 04-19-04, 05:00 AM	Guys, In addition to what Blaine Tog said, the new spells remain explicitly arcane spells so you can't use it to "cheat" your way into Mystic Theurge or the like. Given that, I don't have a problem with it either. My problem is with "reach spell". Can we say "Harm at range?" I knew we could..... -Polaris
wdarkk 04-19-04, 05:02 AM	The Wis requirement seems to be the major balancing factor, aside from the "once per day per spell level" limitation. My current Wizard would require a Headband +6 AND a Tome +4 to cast Heal. My next one might, but it's a huge toss up between this and putting the points into Charisma for something like Words of Creation. Oh, and in other news - score one for Arcane Magic!
Agonar 04-19-04, 05:21 AM	yeah, I kind of like it. Considering that it doesn't actually allow Arcane casters to cast "Divine" spells, since they cast them as arcane spells. You have the wisdome factor as balance, and then you have the diety alignment issue, and for each domain you want to add, you must spend the feat again. You don't get domain powers. It's kind of nifty
jensun 04-19-04, 06:39 AM	Originally posted by Sisyfos It is a great feat for sorcerers though. Getting domains for sorcerers to add spells known has been rather tricky business. Now it is up to just taking the right feat. Go back and read it again. It is not clear that the Domain spells are added to your spell known as opposed to arcane class list as it refers to adding to your "list of Arcane spells". If this is true then its more proof that the Sorceror is the red headed stepchild of WoTC...
TheRedRobedWizard 04-19-04, 08:46 AM	Whoa whoa whoa. Why would you ever think this feat would add 9 spells to a character's spells known? That's the most godawfully unbalanced crap on earth. That doesn't make any sense. Why would ANYONE take the Extra Spell feat when they can just take Arcane Disciple? If it did add all 9 spells to a characters Spells Known, that might be just enough for me to outlaw sorcerers from taking it. Freaking crimeny. So yes, this IS balanced, to an extent. I wish it was worded a bit differently. Something like: "Pick a domain that your deity grants. You may add these spells to your spells known as though they were on your class list. They are not actually on your class list for any purposes of using magic devices such as wands, scrolls, or staves." -TRRW
Sisyfos 04-19-04, 08:57 AM	My mistake. It does indeed seem that the feat does not grant all domain spells like sacred exorcist, divine oracle, etc do. Sisyfos
dantedarkstar 04-19-04, 09:05 AM	Originally posted by TheRedRobedWizard Why would ANYONE take the Extra Spell feat when they can just take Arcane Disciple? Perhaps because Polar Ray isn't in any domain, and your Wis is 8 anyway ? And perhaps your wizard doesn't want to have to beg some stuck-up deity for spells ? However, jensun is right. By RAW, you do NOT add these spells to your known spells. You only gain them to your spell list, so you can learn them normal way. Thanks god, sorcerer is already over the top, this would break him ;) Of course staves become suddently even more appealing for sorcerers.
Palin_IV 04-19-04, 09:37 AM	The only serious problem I can envision is a DM letting his character get away with lame non-sensichal diety choices. How many sorcerors are goingto worship a god that has the healing domain? A fair number perhaps, but make sure he's got the justification. And how lame would that sorceror be anyway. Having pumped up CHA and Wis? Not a lot left for any sort of other attributes. With the limited number of feats they get they have to trade of probably a metamagic feat, and there's little more frightening on the battle field than a sorceror with enlarged fireballs. Having seen other backdoor attempts to cheese out magic users by granting them healing this seems like by far a better option, since WIS is not a terribly useful stat for magic users, and being able to use a wand of CLW is hardly destroying the game.
Kyuketsukiouji 04-19-04, 09:46 AM	Actually, the fact that sorcerers don't get access to these spells immediately means that the feat sucks even more for them. "Congatulations, you've spent one of your few feats and lots of wisdom just to get the priviledge of wasting a spells known slot on a spell you'll only be able to cast once per day anyways." *goes off to confort the crying red-readed girl in the corner*
Vorpal Warhammer 04-19-04, 10:11 AM	I think the feat should have the added restriction that the arcane caster can't cast ANY wiz/sorc spells with an alignment descriptor opposite that of his deity.
cwslyclgh 04-19-04, 03:09 PM	My problem is with "reach spell". Can we say "Harm at range?" I knew we could..... so what... clerics can already do that... reach spell is a much more useful feat for divine spell casters with thier plethora of touch spells then to arcane spell casters with thier relativly few touch spells (well relativly few offensive touch spells at least). So with both of these feats an arcane caster could use a 9th level spell slot to do 150 points of damage, save for half to a creature up to 30 ft. away (Something a cleric could do multiple times per day, with out the destruction domain). Big-frikkin-deal, wizards and sorcerers do not have a problem pumping out damage anyway (In fact the same wizard lets say 18th level for our puproses could use a maximixed disintegrate against the same creature for much more damage [216 points] on a failed save)... and if they want to take the reach spell feat basicaly just so that they can use some domain spells more effectivly I say more power to them. The problems I do see with it come from the healing domain (I am generaly in the mages should not heal camp), and with the luck domain (I do not like the idea of giving mages miracle).
cwslyclgh 04-19-04, 03:09 PM	My problem is with "reach spell". Can we say "Harm at range?" I knew we could..... so what... clerics can already do that... reach spell is a much more useful feat for divine spell casters with thier plethora of touch spells then to arcane spell casters with thier relativly few touch spells (well relativly few offensive touch spells at least). So with both of these feats an arcane caster could use a 9th level spell slot to do 150 points of damage, save for half to a creature up to 30 ft. away (Something a cleric could do multiple times per day, with out the destruction domain). Big-frikkin-deal, wizards and sorcerers do not have a problem pumping out damage anyway (In fact the same wizard lets say 18th level for our puproses could use a maximixed disintegrate against the same creature for much more damage [216 points] on a failed save)... and if they want to take the reach spell feat basicaly just so that they can use some domain spells more effectivly I say more power to them. The problems I do see with it come from the healing domain (I am generaly in the mages should not heal camp), and with the luck domain (I do not like the idea of giving mages miracle). * edit... I see that reach spell only is a +2 adjustment... why did I think it was +3.... hmmm... I will leave my text as is abpove that others may see and revel in my folly.... in any case it doe not matter all that much for my argument... the average damage of an empowered disintegrate on a failed save is more then the maximum damage of a harm spell (considiering caster level 15, and the disintegrate gets larger at each level there after while the harm does not).
Boondoggle 04-19-04, 06:02 PM	Erm, the new reach spell only increases the spell level by 2, not 3.
cwslyclgh 04-19-04, 08:49 PM	erm if you had read my whole post and gotten to the end you will see I realized that :rolleyes:
Kyuketsukiouji 04-19-04, 09:03 PM	Well, you could do the same thing with spectral hand at lower levels, but... You'd do it only once. Harm once a day for a sorcerer for one feat, and one spell known slot. Hardly gamebreaking. Heck, forget Harm, take Heal. At least, that, even if once a day, is remotely useful for the price.
Polaris 04-19-04, 10:30 PM	Guys, I was thinking about the cleric with Reach spell and Harm. For the sorcerer or wizard it is not a huge deal I agree. -Polaris
Vanigo 04-19-04, 11:31 PM	Personally, I like it. I really like it. Clerics have been enroaching on arcane spellcasters since 3.0 first came out (miracle is so ^&*$% broken!); it's about time arcane casters got something back. Of course, there aren't very many domains that are worth taking; most of them are made of spells that are on the sor/wiz list already. The healing domain is big, and maybe destruction, and some of the alignment ones might be worth it, and luck (just for miracle, which is better than wish in just about every concivable way, which makes me very angry; I mean why should clerics get the most powerful spell in the game, it's not like they're the ones that don't get anything but spellcasting), but that's about it. Maybe plant and animal. Still, healing is big.
wdarkk 04-20-04, 12:03 AM	I'm sure somewhere there's a domain that will let Arcane Casters qualify for Thaumaturgist. Also, you might be able to nab prestige domains.
Asmodeous 04-20-04, 12:58 AM	Well, im a mixed bag on this new feat. Sure, clerics have been getting their hands on arcanne spells via domains so it does seem fair that the acranne can get their hands on divine spells in return. But, I have a problem with two main things. Arcanne spell casters with healing magic. traditionally in the past, WoTC has made it very difficult for any arcanne spell casting class to be able to heal in any way. The only exceptions I can think of is polymorph self in v2.0 and a simbul spell that let you spend a spell for 1 hit point of healing per sepll level. (something like that anyway) Point is, in the past, it has been very hard for a arcanne caster to heal. Now it seems, any nuetral good arcanne caster can spend a feat and gain at least cure minor & moderate spells with an average wisdom score. While that doesnt seem too unbalancing to change this tradition of arcanne spellcasters not being able to heal, my question is a role playing one. Clerics have to devote themselves to a god to gain the divine spells. One of the prices of this devotion is "tiffing" or the practice of giving up part of ones earnings to the god's church. According to this feat, all the arcanne caster need do is to learn this skill (feat) and be the same alignment as the god and then the god has to give the spellcaster access to the domain? What is in it for the god? I think that part of the requirements for this feat is some kind of kick back from the arcanne spellcaster to the god and its church in return for this domain access, much like a cleric does. The gods don't give this power for free to the clerics, so why should the arcanne spellcasters get a free ticket?
wdarkk 04-20-04, 01:10 AM	Clerics don't have to tithe either. They don't even need a god, although most good campaign settings (FR, DL) fix that. The God gains an exceptionally devoted follower, who will (insert petitioner duty here). In effect the feat represents a compromise between the character's calling in life and faith. They feel strongly enough about a deity to serve as a Cleric, but they're really much better at Arcane magic.
pokemaniacbill 04-20-04, 01:33 AM	Wands + This Feat = Wuh teh fuh OMG teh o.oness. Makes sense?
wdarkk 04-20-04, 01:41 AM	Wands are nice and all, but they're not that powerful, and the Wiz is still trading a feat that he could have spent on something like Cosmopolitan (Use Magic Device) that could have provided essentially the same thing.
TaisharMalkier 04-20-04, 01:50 AM	Zug Zug. "I'm sure somewhere there's a domain that will let Arcane Casters qualify for Thaumaturgist. Also, you might be able to nab prestige domains." Prolly, but even before this, Sorcerers could take Exalted Arcanist and become Tahumaturgists (as in me, lol). Hardly game changing. Heh, you can qualify for the feat at first level. If you really believe it to be overpowered - add True Believer to the PreReqs. It makes complete sense, and is a fairly crappy feat, which balances out this one. Cheers
Polaris 04-20-04, 02:12 AM	Guys, I actually see this feat as the beginning of the end of the arcane vs divine distinction in magic. I know that Monte Cook as explored with eliminating it (Arcana Unearthed) and FFG's Midnight setting also (with one important NPC exception) has eliminated the distinction by all accounts very successfully. This along with the Generic Spell Caster class in Unearthed Arcana tells me (IMHO anyway) that WOTC is starting to lean in that direction. If so, I completely agree with it. Perhaps eventually (in the eventual 4.0 edition....it will come one day), there will no longer be a class distinction between Wizards and Clerics (at least via spells) and IMHo that would solve a lot of current balance problems. -Polaris
pokemaniacbill 04-20-04, 02:18 AM	I'm awfully tempted to say I don't want my wizard to go 'Okay, well, the battle I won is over, I'll heal everyone with my wand.'. With this feat, it allows for a MUCH more powerful party... the core changes from Fighter/Spell-slinger/Cleric/Backup fighter/slinger to Fighter/Spellslinger with this feat/Druid/Backup fighter/slinger. There is no reason, for terms of party usability, for the wizard NOT to be the Heal-monkey after-battle, especially since he gets heal once per day. Even if it's only once per day, it's HEAL.
Asmodeous 04-20-04, 02:19 AM	Originally posted by wdarkk Clerics don't have to tithe either. They don't even need a god, although most good campaign settings (FR, DL) fix that. The God gains an exceptionally devoted follower, who will (insert petitioner duty here). In effect the feat represents a compromise between the character's calling in life and faith. They feel strongly enough about a deity to serve as a Cleric, but they're really much better at Arcane magic. I thought about the stealing divine power like the PrC ur-priest, but if thats how the arcanne spellcaster was to gain these divine spells, the description of this new feat would have reflected that and not have any alignment constraints or relation with any diety because im sure i read that in the description ofr ur-priest, that any cleric would consider a ur-priest an aberation, to be eliminated or at best, converted. feeling strongly about a diety is much like a cleric. I used "tiffing" as an example of what clerics do to show their devotion to the god. I was trying to point out the fact that the cleric is "owned" by some degree by the god where as if a arcanne spellcaster was to take this feat, he can do whatever he likes with his time, money and these divine spells provided by the god chosen, and the god will gain nothing from it. Clerics still have to offer prayers for these spells, "church" time, perform duties for the church where as the arcanne spell caster has to do none of these according to the feat description. I know it is a role playing implication of this feat, but I feel that it should be covered in the feats description.