Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Frogmantis 05-14-07, 02:37 PM	Arcane magic and healing. Sorry to bring it up. I'm sure its been brought up before (forgive me for being new to the boards), but what is the mechanical and thematic idea behind why they won't let wizards and sorcerers heal themselves. even Vampiric Touch was changed to grant temporary hit points, not permanent ones. I think with the ability to shape reality and all that, some transmuter would have discerned how to regrow flesh and fabricate blood, thereby healing or restoring flesh. ...or is that just against the unspoken "rules" of DnD?
tarkin 05-14-07, 02:59 PM	Part of it is balance. Part of it is tradition. Also note that Bards and certain other Arcane casters can in fact cast healing spells. The in game explanation is as follows: While Positive Energy CAN be used to heal, it takes skill and guidance from a higher being to do it well. For this reason the healing spells useable by Sorcerors and Wizard are not as effective as those used by Divine healers or Bards. My current list of healing spells for Wizards/Sorcerors are False Life (and other temp hitpoint spells) Vampiric Touch/Healing Sting (anti-vampiric touch) Polymorph and similar spells (Including spells that transform you into undead/creatures that have fast healing). Symbuls Syst. Dweomaer spell Limited Wish/Wish spell etc. Summon Monster VII and higher/Gate (Brani)
Thiez 05-14-07, 03:02 PM	Using Limited Wish to get a Heal is quite common I hear :) Edit: before you start screaming about spell levels: the Adept NPC class has both Heal and Raise dead as 5th level spells.
Frogmantis 05-14-07, 03:03 PM	Using Limited Wish to get a Heal is quite common I hear :) ..yes, after you pay the ridiculous XP cost...
Thiez 05-14-07, 03:05 PM	300 xp for Limited wish = ridiculous?
Frogmantis 05-14-07, 03:09 PM	300 xp for Limited wish = ridiculous? Yes. you start using that on a regular basis, say twice an adventure, and its like yoru taking a multiclass XP penalty. you'll take forever to level up. i'm just saying that its not easy, nor is it cost-effective. cutting down my xp by 300 XP a spell isn't my idea of good resource management.
Frogmantis 05-14-07, 03:12 PM	Using Limited Wish to get a Heal is quite common I hear :) Edit: before you start screaming about spell levels: the Adept NPC class has both Heal and Raise dead as 5th level spells. interesting point... that the bard and adept (cough, cough; NPC CLASS) can heal, yet the mighty wizard or powerful sorcerer can't, not without an XP cost per spell? ...a bit off-balanced. but then again, that would make the cleric less effective. because a lot of people keep the cleric around for the sole reason that he can heal... which is a bit sad, really.
Thiez 05-14-07, 03:13 PM	Then don't multiclass. Twice an adventure? How many fights do you have per adventure? 5? 10? 20? Either way, 600 xp for casting limited wish twice is NOTHING. And remember kids, being 1 level behind the rest of the party actually makes you level up faster so you'll catch up with them soon enough (not really, but close enuf :P).
Thiez 05-14-07, 03:16 PM	interesting point... that the bard and adept (cough, cough; NPC CLASS) can heal, yet the mighty wizard or powerful sorcerer can't, not without an XP cost per spell? ...a bit off-balanced. but then again, that would make the cleric less effective. because a lot of people keep the cleric around for the sole reason that he can heal... which is a bit sad, really. You're joking, right? Healing is but one of the cleric's many qualities. There is a reason people talk about CoDzilla. Clerics are among the most powerful classes in the game, if you play 'em right.
Frogmantis 05-14-07, 03:19 PM	Then don't multiclass. Twice an adventure? How many fights do you have per adventure? 5? 10? 20? Either way, 600 xp for casting limited wish twice is NOTHING. And remember kids, being 1 level behind the rest of the party actually makes you level up faster so you'll catch up with them soon enough (not really, but close enuf :P). Sorry, i'm an XP hoarder; forgive me. :) I hate the idea that i have to drain my personal xp to make a magic item, or cast a spell. ...just being resentful of the system. Gosh, i'm a crotchety young man...
Thiez 05-14-07, 03:22 PM	The system encourages you to dump as much XP as you can. Someone on the board did the math.
Frogmantis 05-14-07, 03:23 PM	You're joking, right? Healing is but one of the cleric's many qualities. There is a reason people talk about CoDzilla. Clerics are among the most powerful classes in the game, if you play 'em right. Oh, i know the cleric is powerful; that's why i'm sad about it. which is why I wish that your average wiz or sorc could pull off a healing spell without sacrificing xp. "Yeah, i can turn you into a frog; yes, I can disintegrate living matter with ease; yes I can move thousands of miles in a second. No, i'm sorry; I can't heal that ax wound, not without dipping into my personal power, draining myself. Sorry."
Frogmantis 05-14-07, 03:25 PM	The system encourages you to dump as much XP as you can. Someone on the board did the math. i would love to see the math on that... xp dumping just doesn't seem right... but i admit that I do buck the system for the sake of ... bucking. But it just seems counter productive. i can understand time contraints, and maybe gold requirements, but... wouldn't learning how to and creating a powerful magical item actually teach you something, thereby granting experience? ...or am I overthinking it....?
Thiez 05-14-07, 03:31 PM	If you fall behind your party in level you start earning MORE xp for each encounter (since you're a level lower). Crafting items instead of buying them effectively doubles your wealth. So you're equiped as a character of a higher level than your party, but you're 1 lor 2 levels behind (but since you get more xp, you'll quickly catch up till you're about 1/2 level behind, or something like that. Wizards can use plane shift to the positive energy plane and back :P
CantripN 05-14-07, 03:39 PM	Wizards can use plane shift to the positive energy plane and back :P That's a bit Overkill. Often literally.
Frogmantis 05-14-07, 03:40 PM	If you fall behind your party in level you start earning MORE xp for each encounter (since you're a level lower). Crafting items instead of buying them effectively doubles your wealth. So you're equiped as a character of a higher level than your party, but you're 1 lor 2 levels behind (but since you get more xp, you'll quickly catch up till you're about 1/2 level behind, or something like that. Wizards can use plane shift to the positive energy plane and back :P Very interesting and good points, all! :) My only downside I see is the fall-behind in spells and spell levels, which i've run into playing a spellsword recently. But other than that, I see how you could find it a positive. ...but still, even on the Positive Energy Plain... one still wouldn't get healed unless they cast a healing spell.... :P but i know you were joking.
Thiez 05-14-07, 03:48 PM	I'm not joking. Creatures on the positive energy plane get either fast healing 2 or fast healing 5, depending where in the plane you are. If you are in a fast healing 2 area there is nothing to worry about. If you are in a fast healing 5 area, you are risking certain death (but you should be alright if you plane shift out of there before you are fully healed. Shift out of there once your (Max Hitpoints - Current Hitpoints) < 5
CantripN 05-14-07, 03:48 PM	...but still, even on the Positive Energy Plain... one still wouldn't get healed unless they cast a healing spell.... :P but i know you were joking. That's the minor positively aligned. The actual Positive Energy Plane will grant you Fast Healing of sorts, however. It'll also cause you to die of AWESOME overload.
Frogmantis 05-14-07, 03:51 PM	interesting; what book does it mention that in? All i've got in the way of planes descriptions is the DMG.
Lixith 05-14-07, 03:52 PM	I'm gonna chime in and say it's against the 'unspoken rules'... I mean.... wizards wouldn't like it if barbarians suddenly started to cast spells.... What if Paladins suddenly could pick locks almost as good as rogues.... etc.... There's a role for everyone. And IMO... temp hit points are WAY better in most situations that regular ones.
Thiez 05-14-07, 03:57 PM	DMG, Page 149: Explains what minor positive-dominant and major positive-dominant means. DMG, Pages 157-158: The positive energy plane is major positive-dominant (mostly). DMG, page 158: Ysgard is minor positive-dominant (meaning you'll always get reliable, non-lethal fast healing 2 there).
Frogmantis 05-14-07, 03:59 PM	true, i realize the roles the characters play, and I understand the benefits of the Temp hit point. ...its simply logic applied to a mostly illogical system. Its FANTASY after all... I suppose my theory is that as one can do so much with arcane magic, and that transmutation magic is so powerful that it can permanently change the shape and type of a creature, couldn't it regrow a limb or close a wound?
Frogmantis 05-14-07, 04:01 PM	DMG, Page 149: Explains what minor positive-dominant and major positive-dominant means. DMG, Pages 157-158: The positive energy plane is major positive-dominant (mostly). DMG, page 158: Ysgard is minor positive-dominant (meaning you'll always get reliable, non-lethal fast healing 2 there). ahh, thank you sir. so with a very risk plane shift, a wizard could heal himself... albeit with much risk unto himself, and using two 7 level spells (one to get there, another to get back), not including any spells to protect himself.
CantripN 05-14-07, 04:03 PM	Well, Healing Touch (Sor/Wiz 3 - SpC) can heal you for (CL/4)d6, and Synostodweomer (Sor/Wiz 7 - SpC) lets you use up spells to heal 1d8/spell level.
Thiez 05-14-07, 04:05 PM	ahh, thank you sir. so with a very risk plane shift, a wizard could heal himself... albeit with much risk unto himself, and using two 7 level spells (one to get there, another to get back), not including any spells to protect himself. Amulet of the Planes This device usually appears to be a black circular amulet, although any character looking closely at it sees a dark, moving swirl of color. The amulet allows its wearer to utilize plane shift. However, this is a difficult item to master. The user must make a DC 15 Intelligence check in order to get the amulet to take her to the plane (and the specific location on that plane) that she wants. If she fails, the amulet transports her and all those traveling with her to a random location on that plane (01-60 on d%) or to a random plane (61-100). Strong conjuration; CL 15th; Craft Wondrous Item, plane shift; Price 120,000 gp. Go to Ysgard. No risk. Edit: as a wizard you should be able to take 10 on that DC 15 thing.
Frogmantis 05-14-07, 04:10 PM	Well, Healing Touch (Sor/Wiz 3 - SpC) can heal you for (CL/4)d6, and Synostodweomer (Sor/Wiz 7 - SpC) lets you use up spells to heal 1d8/spell level. with synostodweomer you could (albiet at a very high level; thanks for pointing that one out to me), but EDIT:healing touch heals others, and you take half the healing in damage to yourself... which is uncool if you need healing.
JulesCARV 05-14-07, 04:25 PM	Warmages and clerics don't get dominate person. Beguilers and druids don't get teleportation circle. Bards and wizards don't get remove disease. Ultimately, every spell list has limits. Some classes -- archivists, artificers, and chameleons, for instance -- seem like their spell list is pretty much limitless, but these are exceptions to the norm. Normally, classes draw from a class specific spell list. Overall, the wizard/sorcerer spell list is very strong -- perhaps the strongest in the game -- but healing happens to be one of their weaknesses.
Yusari 05-14-07, 08:34 PM	The other option is the Magic of Nature feat from Races of the Wild. You have to make some roll or another (I don't remember what type off hand), but it heals for 2 points per spell level when you cast a spell and are in "natural surroundings", to all targets. There's some other restrictions, but they aren't major.
runestar 05-14-07, 11:07 PM	You could use summon monster to conjure a creature with curative magic(like a bralani or coautl) and have it heal you...:P
Fireclave 05-14-07, 11:31 PM	I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Polymorph. It heals a small it of HP. But some is better then none, right?
Thiez 05-15-07, 03:16 AM	I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Polymorph. It heals a small it of HP. But some is better then none, right? Technically, better THAN... :P I thought of polymorph but the healing is too unimpressive to be comparable to, let's say, plane shifting to Ysgard.
Fireclave 05-15-07, 03:36 AM	But considering that I can get Polymorph seven levels earlier than Plane Shift, I'll take what I can get right now, thx ;)
Grogmir 05-15-07, 04:03 AM	Arcane Disciple feat – Choose a deity with Healing Domain – gives you some healing spells as a wizard.
JapansRobo 05-17-07, 01:15 AM	I only have the 3.0 edition rules so this might be wrong, but it says that the sorcerer can learn unusual spells when leveling up from an arcane spell scroll. It also says that bards cast arcane spells. Therefore a sorcerer can get a curing spell scroll from a bard and then learn it when they level up.
Fireclave 05-17-07, 01:35 AM	I only have the 3.0 edition rules so this might be wrong, but it says that the sorcerer can learn unusual spells when leveling up from an arcane spell scroll. It also says that bards cast arcane spells. Therefore a sorcerer can get a curing spell scroll from a bard and then learn it when they level up. That section is pretty much alluding to spell research, and any researched spell must still be approved by the DM. Typically, no, a sorcerer cannot learn bard spells, or any spell not on that list (bearing certain exceptions from feats, class abilities, etc).
Frogmantis 05-17-07, 03:21 AM	Arcane Disciple feat – Choose a deity with Healing Domain – gives you some healing spells as a wizard. name the book that feat is in, or allude to what it does precisely--or both. either way, i'll give you a dollar.
JapansRobo 05-17-07, 05:29 AM	That section is pretty much alluding to spell research, and any researched spell must still be approved by the DM. Typically, no, a sorcerer cannot learn bard spells, or any spell not on that list (bearing certain exceptions from feats, class abilities, etc). But if it was about spell research wouldn't it say that? It just says any spell that is not on the Sorcerer and Wizard spell list.
CantripN 05-17-07, 05:32 AM	name the book that feat is in, or allude to what it does precisely--or both. either way, i'll give you a dollar. I take cash, checks, credit cards and Paypal... :D Here's the feat: http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Arcane_Disciple,all And it's from Complete Divine.
Grogmir 05-17-07, 06:15 AM	CantripN – You stole my Dollar! :mad: :D :P Frog – He’s right its from Complete divine – its not the best Feat around and certainly not very powerful. Limiting you to 1 spell for each level. But when our Cleric was down and we all looked at each other for a potion – the ability of my wizard to walk over and do a little healing – Well let’s just say my group didn’t think it was underpowered. This feat shows how difficult it is to get Healing as an Arcane caster and I think that’s by design. Grogmir
runestar 05-17-07, 06:48 AM	Forget about paying CantripN 1 dollar. I will take 50 cents instead.:P
Devil Gnasher 05-18-07, 01:11 AM	I started a thread with this premise (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=830680). You might actually like some of my ideas of you really think about it.
Vanigo 05-20-07, 02:13 AM	In the slightly-obscure category, there's also light of Venya, a Clr 3, Sor/Wiz 3 spell originally from the Planar Handbook. The original version gave you two rays that could be used for attacking or healing 3d6 damage, but the new SC version heals for 1d6+divine caster level each ray.
zzo38 05-20-07, 11:00 AM	If you use Unearthed Arcana generic classes (either the one in the book or my own), then arcane casters can use all the same spells as divine casters do.
Candin 05-20-07, 02:23 PM	I just pull out my wand of cure moderate wounds and whack people with it. Not exactly "arcane" healing, but healing by an arcane?
Yusari 05-20-07, 02:29 PM	hmm... actually, now that you mention it... Even aside from the limited amount of healing you can do with simply the Arcane Disciple (Healing) feat, said feat would allow you to utilize Cure Wands without the need for use magic device, wouldn't it? After all, the spells are now part of your spell list.
JulesCARV 05-20-07, 02:41 PM	By the way, I'd like a little clarification on this topic: suppose you shapechange into a guardinal. How does lay on hands work? 1) You get the LoH ability to heal up to your hit points, once. If you shapechange from a leonal to an avoral, that doesn't "recharge" your lay on hands, because they're the same ability. 2) You get the Lay on Hands ability to heal up to your hit points for each creature with that ability. For example, you can use up a leonal's lay on hands, shapechange into an avoral, and then use up the avoral's lay on hands. 3) Lay on hands recharges each time you change, because it's not the "same" guardinal, even if it's of the same type?
Nathreet 05-20-07, 04:13 PM	Yes. you start using that on a regular basis, say twice an adventure, and its like yoru taking a multiclass XP penalty. you'll take forever to level up. i'm just saying that its not easy, nor is it cost-effective. cutting down my xp by 300 XP a spell isn't my idea of good resource management. 300 XP at 13th level is a heck of a lot better than dying. Heck, you need 13,000xp just to gain a level. And you'll need how many heals between 13th and 14th level?? It seems well worth it to me. In general, I think people tend to be misers about certain things like xp. I think that's stupid. You need to weigh the cost and benefit. i would love to see the math on that... xp dumping just doesn't seem right... but i admit that I do buck the system for the sake of ... bucking. But it just seems counter productive. i can understand time contraints, and maybe gold requirements, but... wouldn't learning how to and creating a powerful magical item actually teach you something, thereby granting experience? ...or am I overthinking it....? You pour some of your self into the magic item, hence the xp drain. In the end, the gains far outweigh the cost b/c: 1. The power gained by being able to afford more magic items far outweighs the loss of power due to having a lower xp total. 2. If you are a level behind the rest of the party, you gain xp faster than them (per xp rules in DMG). Yet, thanks to #1, you aren't actually any weaker than your other party members. So it's win-win. By the way, I'd like a little clarification on this topic: suppose you shapechange into a guardinal. How does lay on hands work? 1) You get the LoH ability to heal up to your hit points, once. If you shapechange from a leonal to an avoral, that doesn't "recharge" your lay on hands, because they're the same ability. 2) You get the Lay on Hands ability to heal up to your hit points for each creature with that ability. For example, you can use up a leonal's lay on hands, shapechange into an avoral, and then use up the avoral's lay on hands. 3) Lay on hands recharges each time you change, because it's not the "same" guardinal, even if it's of the same type? 4) The guardinal's lay on hands is granted by a deity (I presume). No lay on hands for you.
JulesCARV 05-20-07, 08:39 PM	I suppose that you arrived at that conclusion without looking at any of the guardinals or at the shapechange spell?
Thiez 05-21-07, 02:03 AM	Having actual arguments to back up your opinion is BOOORING! :P
HellflameArcanite 05-21-07, 06:53 AM	Divine Casters do mostly healing, buffing, and alignment- or nature-based stuff. Arcane casters do the explosions, illusions, and flashy bang boom kablooey abracadabra alakazam stuff that kicks butt.
Chie 05-21-07, 03:13 PM	Yes. you start using that on a regular basis, say twice an adventure, and its like yoru taking a multiclass XP penalty. you'll take forever to level up. i'm just saying that its not easy, nor is it cost-effective. cutting down my xp by 300 XP a spell isn't my idea of good resource management. As someone who does a lot of item creation,believe me that XP is pretty much insignificant,despite what they try to tell you in the PHB when they say that assigning an XP cost is a good balance to powerful spells.The only resource that really holds you back is gold.You can always go out and find something to kill,but getting good treasure is way harder,even with a generous DM.