Arcane Mark, Holy Symbols, and Vampires. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcane Mark, Holy Symbols, and Vampires. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Vayda
10-04-04, 02:24 PM Hi everyone, i have a minor issue that came up today during our regular lunchtime game. We've been trapped in combat with a vampire for the past several days, and today our sorcerer decided to use arcane mark to inscribe a holy symbol - onto the vampire. He successfully cast the spell and made a touch attack against the vampire, so there was no reason why he shouldn't have been able to engrave the holy symbol of Baccob onto the vampire.

Here's the issue: A "strongly presented" holy symbol repels the vampire, and he needs to stay 5 feet away from it at all times. I'd consider a very large holy symbol ON the vampire pretty strongly presented - so what now? Does the vampire have to stay five feet away from himself? If he alters form to, say, a dire wolf, does the mark stay and does he still flee from it?

I actually had the vampire assume gaseous form and flee, and since the spell rubs off in a month he'll certainly be back, but i'm really curious about this, what does a vampire do when he's stuck to a holy symbol?

By the way, the base creature used was a fighter, so he didn't have a dispell magic spell or anything to use.
Sacrusha
10-04-04, 02:36 PM "This spell allows you to inscribe your personal rune or mark, which can consist of no more than six characters."

It is a cantrip for a reason.

But in case of a vampire with a holy symbol of any kind attached to it, I'd say the vampire would act as if confused or turned/rebuked, for a while (will save?), and finally get used to it, altough with a gradually decreasing morale penalty to attacks, skills and saves.
Sproik
10-04-04, 09:49 PM Actually, being inscribed on him is not being strongly presented.

By "strongly presented" think of the vampire movie classic, holding the crucifix out like a weapon, pointing it straight at the vampire (perhaps praying loudly).

Even if this is not the case, I would definitely have the vampire just claw off the offending bit of undead skin. And get angry, of course.
Vayda
10-04-04, 10:01 PM I decided that i'm going to have the vampire come back for revenge after the mark wears off, but between then and now i'm going to have a very upset baccob smite the sorcerer, who abused divine power with an arcane spell. Tsk tsk little sorcerer.

I'm thinking of arcane marking something onto his forhead, perhaps, "I'm a moron" but that doesn't seem like quite enough punishment, really.
Sproik
10-04-04, 10:33 PM You'd have Boccob punish someone who used an arcane spell to overcome a problem? In fact, I would have thought Boccob wouldn't really care about the perceived difference between Divine and Arcane magic, seeing as he is the god of magic. Not to mention "the Uncaring".
Bloodtide_the_Red
10-04-04, 11:01 PM Well...it's not such a good idea to let a character defeat something like a vampire with a 0-level spell. It sounds like a neat idea...'holy mark the vampire'...but think about it.
1.I'd say a holy symbol is a bit more then just a drawing. You can't just scribble down a shape and say 'look it's a holy symbol'.
2.Along that line...a holy symbol is an object. Something solid you can hold. And in most cases it needs to be made of a special materal too.
3.And it needs to be holy too. Not just any old folk can make a holy symbol, you gotta have faith.
4.And that leads into the presenting part. You'd need to hold up the holy symbol firmly and with the full faith and befief of your deity behind you.

But, as has been said, Arcane Mark can't even make a 'holy symbol' any way. Though it does look like you were just looking for a quick 'out' to save the characters anyway. You should be careful though, too many of theas types of rulings can get you into trouble. Soon your'll have them blasting down doors with Magic Missle, polymorphing into stuff with templates or stacking a divine bulls strgenth with a aracne bulls strgenth.

BT
incubus
10-04-04, 11:45 PM 1.I'd say a holy symbol is a bit more then just a drawing. You can't just scribble down a shape and say 'look it's a holy symbol'.

I think that that would qualify perfectly as a holy symbol. I've no problems with casters using impromptu holy symbols.

4.And that leads into the presenting part. You'd need to hold up the holy symbol firmly and with the full faith and befief of your deity behind you.

I'd say that's totally true. If you're not presenting the holy symbol, then it doesn't matter where it is. It has no effect.

But, as has been said, Arcane Mark can't even make a 'holy symbol' any way.

I'd have absolutely no problem with someone using arcane mark to write anything on anything else. It's a low level spell with very limited applications.

However it's still not going to be a permanent turn vampire.
sparkster4242
10-05-04, 09:20 AM where did your sorceror gain the ability to turn undead?

its not the 'presenting the holy symbol' thing that makes undead run away, its the 'turning undead' thing - of which presenting a holy symbol is only a small part.

unless its being used to turn undead, a vampire will have no problems with a holy symbol - even if its tattooed on his forehead.
Will Brandiman
10-05-04, 09:53 AM From the SRD:
This spell allows you to inscribe your personal rune or mark, which can consist of no more than six characters. The writing can be visible or invisible. An arcane mark spell enables you to etch the rune upon any substance without harm to the material upon which it is placed.

Firstly, unless the caster is Boccob himself then he cannot inscribe Boccob's symbol on anything by use of this spell. And of course, if the caster is Boccob then he's hardly likely to be worried by a vampire!

Secondly, even if it was possible to inscribe a holy symbol, it would not be possible to do so if it caused "harm to the material upon which it is placed". It's a bit of a catch 22. If it causes harm, you can't do it. If it doesn't cause harm, there's no point.

So sorry, nice try but not legal.
tarkin
10-05-04, 10:16 AM The word presented pretty much means in your hand.

Once you let go of the monster, you are no longer presenting it, so it is NOT being Strongly Presented.

Also note, tons of vampire stories talk about the vampire that has had a holy symbol pressed into their skin leaving a cross shaped burn. Aside from the ugly factor, it gave them no harm... because no one was strongly presenting it.
darkwave
10-05-04, 07:47 PM Well, the vampire was a fighter, right? :confused:

Maybe the fighter/vampire didn't know any better and got scared + ran away (that wizard was SO convincing). :mymy:

Now, wiser, embarrassed and angry, the vampire is going to come a calling... :D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Vayda 10-04-04, 02:24 PM	Hi everyone, i have a minor issue that came up today during our regular lunchtime game. We've been trapped in combat with a vampire for the past several days, and today our sorcerer decided to use arcane mark to inscribe a holy symbol - onto the vampire. He successfully cast the spell and made a touch attack against the vampire, so there was no reason why he shouldn't have been able to engrave the holy symbol of Baccob onto the vampire. Here's the issue: A "strongly presented" holy symbol repels the vampire, and he needs to stay 5 feet away from it at all times. I'd consider a very large holy symbol ON the vampire pretty strongly presented - so what now? Does the vampire have to stay five feet away from himself? If he alters form to, say, a dire wolf, does the mark stay and does he still flee from it? I actually had the vampire assume gaseous form and flee, and since the spell rubs off in a month he'll certainly be back, but i'm really curious about this, what does a vampire do when he's stuck to a holy symbol? By the way, the base creature used was a fighter, so he didn't have a dispell magic spell or anything to use.
Sacrusha 10-04-04, 02:36 PM	"This spell allows you to inscribe your personal rune or mark, which can consist of no more than six characters." It is a cantrip for a reason. But in case of a vampire with a holy symbol of any kind attached to it, I'd say the vampire would act as if confused or turned/rebuked, for a while (will save?), and finally get used to it, altough with a gradually decreasing morale penalty to attacks, skills and saves.
Sproik 10-04-04, 09:49 PM	Actually, being inscribed on him is not being strongly presented. By "strongly presented" think of the vampire movie classic, holding the crucifix out like a weapon, pointing it straight at the vampire (perhaps praying loudly). Even if this is not the case, I would definitely have the vampire just claw off the offending bit of undead skin. And get angry, of course.
Vayda 10-04-04, 10:01 PM	I decided that i'm going to have the vampire come back for revenge after the mark wears off, but between then and now i'm going to have a very upset baccob smite the sorcerer, who abused divine power with an arcane spell. Tsk tsk little sorcerer. I'm thinking of arcane marking something onto his forhead, perhaps, "I'm a moron" but that doesn't seem like quite enough punishment, really.
Sproik 10-04-04, 10:33 PM	You'd have Boccob punish someone who used an arcane spell to overcome a problem? In fact, I would have thought Boccob wouldn't really care about the perceived difference between Divine and Arcane magic, seeing as he is the god of magic. Not to mention "the Uncaring".
Bloodtide_the_Red 10-04-04, 11:01 PM	Well...it's not such a good idea to let a character defeat something like a vampire with a 0-level spell. It sounds like a neat idea...'holy mark the vampire'...but think about it. 1.I'd say a holy symbol is a bit more then just a drawing. You can't just scribble down a shape and say 'look it's a holy symbol'. 2.Along that line...a holy symbol is an object. Something solid you can hold. And in most cases it needs to be made of a special materal too. 3.And it needs to be holy too. Not just any old folk can make a holy symbol, you gotta have faith. 4.And that leads into the presenting part. You'd need to hold up the holy symbol firmly and with the full faith and befief of your deity behind you. But, as has been said, Arcane Mark can't even make a 'holy symbol' any way. Though it does look like you were just looking for a quick 'out' to save the characters anyway. You should be careful though, too many of theas types of rulings can get you into trouble. Soon your'll have them blasting down doors with Magic Missle, polymorphing into stuff with templates or stacking a divine bulls strgenth with a aracne bulls strgenth. BT
incubus 10-04-04, 11:45 PM	1.I'd say a holy symbol is a bit more then just a drawing. You can't just scribble down a shape and say 'look it's a holy symbol'. I think that that would qualify perfectly as a holy symbol. I've no problems with casters using impromptu holy symbols. 4.And that leads into the presenting part. You'd need to hold up the holy symbol firmly and with the full faith and befief of your deity behind you. I'd say that's totally true. If you're not presenting the holy symbol, then it doesn't matter where it is. It has no effect. But, as has been said, Arcane Mark can't even make a 'holy symbol' any way. I'd have absolutely no problem with someone using arcane mark to write anything on anything else. It's a low level spell with very limited applications. However it's still not going to be a permanent turn vampire.
sparkster4242 10-05-04, 09:20 AM	where did your sorceror gain the ability to turn undead? its not the 'presenting the holy symbol' thing that makes undead run away, its the 'turning undead' thing - of which presenting a holy symbol is only a small part. unless its being used to turn undead, a vampire will have no problems with a holy symbol - even if its tattooed on his forehead.
Will Brandiman 10-05-04, 09:53 AM	From the SRD: This spell allows you to inscribe your personal rune or mark, which can consist of no more than six characters. The writing can be visible or invisible. An arcane mark spell enables you to etch the rune upon any substance without harm to the material upon which it is placed. Firstly, unless the caster is Boccob himself then he cannot inscribe Boccob's symbol on anything by use of this spell. And of course, if the caster is Boccob then he's hardly likely to be worried by a vampire! Secondly, even if it was possible to inscribe a holy symbol, it would not be possible to do so if it caused "harm to the material upon which it is placed". It's a bit of a catch 22. If it causes harm, you can't do it. If it doesn't cause harm, there's no point. So sorry, nice try but not legal.
tarkin 10-05-04, 10:16 AM	The word presented pretty much means in your hand. Once you let go of the monster, you are no longer presenting it, so it is NOT being Strongly Presented. Also note, tons of vampire stories talk about the vampire that has had a holy symbol pressed into their skin leaving a cross shaped burn. Aside from the ugly factor, it gave them no harm... because no one was strongly presenting it.
darkwave 10-05-04, 07:47 PM	Well, the vampire was a fighter, right? :confused: Maybe the fighter/vampire didn't know any better and got scared + ran away (that wizard was SO convincing). :mymy: Now, wiser, embarrassed and angry, the vampire is going to come a calling... :D