Arcane or Divine? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcane or Divine? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Eminon
02-19-07, 04:07 PM I have a question for a class write-up I'm working on that is able to cast both Divine and Arcane spells. It occurs to me that this question is probably answered somewhere, but I have no clue where to begin looking. Anywhoo, here it is:
If a character who is able to cast both Divine and Arcane spells casts a spell that is able to be cast by both Divine and Arcane spellcasters, such as Summon Monster, what type of spell is it cast as? This strikes me as something that may not come up often, but could be important if it does. Thanks for your help.
Thiez
02-19-07, 04:16 PM A character does not mix spellslots from different classes. Suppose I was a Sorc 1 / Wiz 1. The sorcerer level does not know the Magic Missile spell, the Wizard level does. I can prepare and cast Magic Missile in and from the spellslots I have by virtue of having a level in the wizard class, but I can not cast magic missile from the spellslots I have from the sorcerer class.

The class that is most like the class you describe in the OP would be the Mystic Theurge. It works just like multiclassing a divine and an arcane class: you have seperate spellslots for both classes and can only prepare spells from a class in the spellslots you have gained from having levels in that class.

Now, if you cast a spell from a spellslot you gained from having levels in, let's say, the cleric class, that spell would be divine. However, if that spellslot would 'belong' to the wizard class, it would be arcane.

Does that make sense? I hope it helps, and I'd like to point out that I think your class concept is no good, but I am curious as to how it will turn out nevertheless.
NerdNumber1
02-19-07, 04:17 PM Mystic thuge PrC? Gesalt wiz/cleric? Multi-class? There are ways to get both sides of magic at once.
cwslyclgh
02-19-07, 04:23 PM generaly, a single class gives access to only arcane or divine spells, in which case all the spells that the class can cast are of that type... (even spells that would normaly only be one or another... if a class casts arcane spells, and a spell normaly only found on a divine spell list such as Searing Light shows up on that classes spell list, then when that class casts Searing Light it would be an arcane spell).

the only classes I can think of that "give access" both arcane and divine spells are prestige classes like Mystic Theurge which advance already possessed spell casting ability, in which case the spell lists remain seperate.

there for it seems that you are treading new ground here, with your class, and although we could offer advice, there is nothing hard and fast in the rules to say how you should handle this. Personaly if I were to design a class I would simply chose to make all the spells thay cast either Arcane or Divine, all spells that were cast by members of that class would be what ever I chose for the class. (for an example of what I am talking about look at the Dread Necromancer cless in Heroes of Horror).
Eminon
02-19-07, 04:24 PM The class I am working on is a True Conjurer (and yes, I will be working on one for each school of magic, I just chose this one first). The idea behind this being that since he has devoted himself solely to the study of Conjuration magic, and given up an ability to cast magic from other schools, he has access to all spells from the conjuration school, whether it is arcane or divine.
If I understand your post correctly, I would be forced to split his spell list in two, making one divine and the other arcane. This seems complicated to me, but possibly do-able. I was just hoping there was an easy answer somewhere saying the spell would count as arcane in this situation or divine in that. Tell me if I'm interpreting your message wrong.
cwslyclgh
02-19-07, 04:28 PM I would not split the spell list... I would simple state that all the spells that your true conjurer casts are arcane, all of the time, no matter what spell, no matter what list it came from, once it is on the true conjurers list it would be arcane (or divine if I chose to make the class a divine spell casting class instead)...
Thiez
02-19-07, 04:34 PM Eh, if that's all your after, it's much easier. Like cwslyclgh (DUDE! fix that name! ;)) says, just say he casts arcane spells no matter where the spells came from originally.
NoldorForce
02-19-07, 04:42 PM The confusion here is that the only WotC classes that cast spells from both the arcane and divine lists keep the arcane and divine progressions seperate. True Conjurer, however, is a homebrew class you're making, so those assumptions are out.

Personally, I'd suggest that it be neither arcane nor divine, considering its connection purely to one school of magic. "But it needs to be one or the other!" BULL. It does not need to be either; the arcane/divine distinction has no reason for existence other than because someone (perhaps Gygax) said so, considering that it's mere flavor. After all, the artificer from ECS is neither arcane nor divine, and it functions just fine. (It too has a connection to one specific area of magic, namely that of crafting and buffing.)
Thiez
02-19-07, 04:50 PM NoldorForce: Blasphemer.

I love the way magic is split up in arcane and divine. And I like it how arcane and divine have their own advantages and disadvantages. Someone who devotes himself the the study of a single school is obviously arcane. There is no need to make him cast 'general' magic. In fact, it may (will) cause more problems than it solves ('solving' your inability to make a choice). Like, what type will your scrolls be?
Jaxgaret
02-19-07, 05:07 PM There is a class that blurs the lines between divine and arcane casting: the Geomancer.
NoldorForce
02-19-07, 05:20 PM The scrolls would be neither arcane nor divine, as the artificer's scrolls already are (according to errata and the FAQ). If that's a problem, well, keep in mind that by RAW sorcerers cannot use scrolls made by wizards without making a UMD check. Personally, I'd just say that if you could cast the spell normally (regardless of class), then you could also use the scroll.

Oh, and keep in mind that said character can cast certain things normally kept to the divine casters, such as every single (Healing) spell. Really, arcane and divine magic have already had so much incest over the swapping of spells (given various feats, clerical domains, and class abilities that do this) that there is no true distinction between them. Rather, the distinction is between the classes that cast such spells. You don't need an arcane/divine delineation to seperate the casting classes.

Besides, say that you wanted to make such a caster who, for flavor, drew his power from some otherworldly source - the Font of Creation, if you will. Or maybe he gets his magic from Aule, Forger of the Gods, and thus gains magic only from the implied school of magic - but because he gets it from Aule, he can access any sort of creation magic that he wishes to. There's a "divine" version for you. And all that changes is flavor.
Zherog
02-19-07, 05:45 PM If that's a problem, well, keep in mind that by RAW sorcerers cannot use scrolls made by wizards without making a UMD check.

:uh-huh:

Well, there's an asertion I've never heard before...
RellenMarn
02-19-07, 05:57 PM Sorcerers cannot cast scrolls created by Wizards... Cunquat?

By what RAW, can you cite a source for that please?
JulesCARV
02-19-07, 06:05 PM I think NoldorForce meant "scrolls created by artificers."

Anyway, for a purist conjurer, I'd say go purely arcane.
Leress
02-19-07, 06:23 PM NoldorForce: Blasphemer.

I love the way magic is split up in arcane and divine. And I like it how arcane and divine have their own advantages and disadvantages. Someone who devotes himself the the study of a single school is obviously arcane. There is no need to make him cast 'general' magic. In fact, it may (will) cause more problems than it solves ('solving' your inability to make a choice). Like, what type will your scrolls be?

Someone who devotes themselves to a single school is not arcane but a specialist.

You can also make the scrolls both arcane and divine.

A wizard could learn all the ever anyway.
NoldorForce
02-19-07, 06:49 PM To use a spell completion item [scroll] safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already.Bolding mine. It's what the rules seem to say, though I would take the other extreme (as above) and require that you have the proper caster level and the spell on your spell list, similar to how spell trigger items work.
cwslyclgh
02-19-07, 07:10 PM "in the right class" in this case just means that the spell is on your spell list, not that you actually have to exactly match the class of the scriber exactly.
NoldorForce
02-19-07, 07:36 PM "in the right class" in this case just means that the spell is on your spell list, not that you actually have to exactly match the class of the scriber exactly.If so, then there is almost no need to distinguish arcane scrolls from divine scrolls; there are only a few corner cases (generally class abilities) where something operates differently if the spell is one of the two. And thus the scrolls argument against making the True Conjurer neither arcane nor divine would disappear.

Unfortunately, the text on the artificer in the FAQ implies that this isn't the case.According to the official errata for the EBERRON campaign setting, the magic items crafted by an artificer are neither arcane nor divine. This has no bearing on the artificer’s ability to use the scroll, but it means that the scroll is useless to any other character without a successful Use Magic Device check.
cwslyclgh
02-19-07, 07:39 PM not quite... scrolls are divided into arcane and divine for a purpose... but as long as you are an arcane caster and you have an arcane scroll with a spell on your spell list you can use it.

your second point was trying to dispute something that I did not say, but appearently that you read into my response.

here is the correct quote from the SRD:

• The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.)
• The user must have the spell on his or her class list.
• The user must have the requisite ability score.

Those are the requirements for using a scroll.
Constantin_Guderian
02-19-07, 08:00 PM "But it needs to be one or the other!" BULL. S***. It does not need to be either; the arcane/divine distinction has no reason for existence other than because someone (perhaps Gygax) said so, considering that it's mere flavor.

If by "flavor", you mean that Divine spellcasting is granted to the caster from a god or goddess or some other 'divine' source... and Arcane spellcasting is a product of innate power within the caster and some non-divine source, then I would say you are correct. But you are not correct, you are wrong! :P hehe

P.S. Gary... if you are out there.. give me some love for defending you and your 'old-school' precepts from this young wipper-snapper! ;) hehehe
cwslyclgh
02-19-07, 08:03 PM P.S. Gary... if you are out there.. give me some love for defending you and your 'old-school' precepts from this young wipper-snapper! heheheGary (as in Gygax) dislikes 3e and takes every opportunity to bad mouth it on the various forums he frequents, it would likley be a cold day in heck before he stopped by the WotC boards to offer up discusion ;)
NoldorForce
02-19-07, 08:08 PM That's weird. Scrolls are the only spell completion items out there, so those two quotes contradict each other.

Magic Item Basics text:
-Have to be in the right class.
-Have to be able "of high enough level...to cast the spell". This implies the need to match the caster level.
-No mention of ability scores, but that may be implied.

Magic Scrolls, Staffs, and Wands text:
-Have to have it on your spell list.
-Have to match the scroll's arcane/divine distinction.
-Have to match the caster level.
-Have to meet the minimum ability score to cast the spell.

Where they differ:
-Sorcerer tries to cast from a scroll made by a wizard. The former set says he can't ("in the right class"), but the latter says he can.
-Chameleon with the Arcane Focus (but not the Divine Focus) tries to cast Detect Magic from a scroll. Said scroll is a divine scroll made through bait-and-switch by another chameleon. The former set says he can cast it, while the latter says he can't (doesn't meet the arcane/divine distinction).

See the problem?

@Constantin_Guderian: Err, what are you trying to say? (You seem to be saying that divine casting is not just from a deific source and/or arcane magic is not just from within, by the logic of your statements. But that appears to further my point instead of yours.)
cwslyclgh
02-19-07, 08:20 PM in point of fact you do not have to be of high enough level to cast the spell when using a scroll, if you are not of high enough level to cast the spell normaly you have to make a successful caster level check to cast it off of the scroll, but you can do it. here is the relevant quote, it comes directly after the quote I posted above.

If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell’s caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell’s caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap (see Scroll Mishaps, below). A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers.
NoldorForce
02-19-07, 08:25 PM That doesn't address my point, which is that there are two separate paragraphs that delineate the use of scrolls, and that they contradict each other. It's not merely that one is more restrictive than the other; depending on the situation, either may be more restrictive than the other. (See the sorcerer/chameleon examples.)
cwslyclgh
02-19-07, 08:31 PM the contradiction is an illusion, specific rules over ride general rules, what ever the general rules for spell completion items would be, they are over ridden by what is writen in the scroll section of the DMG when talking about scrolls.

now this might seem confusing as scrolls are the only spell completion item out there, so you would think that the two sections should match, but in point of fact it doesn't matter if they do or not, because the section on scrolls tells you how they are used. even if the general section said that to use a spell completion device you have to tape it to your rear end and light it on fire, the section of scrolls would over rule that.
NoldorForce
02-19-07, 08:36 PM specific rules over ride general rulesWhere has WotC actually said this? I suspect from the number of times people have invoked this that it's a guideline they use, but I don't know where it came up. I'm not being antagonistic so much as curious.
Constantin_Guderian
02-19-07, 08:38 PM Gary (as in Gygax) dislikes 3e and takes every opportunity to bad mouth it on the various forums he frequents, it would likley be a cold day in heck before he stopped by the WotC boards to offer up discusion ;)

ah well.. I think the v3.0 and v3.5 rulebooks (core) are incoherently written and terribly referenced... but the division between arcane and divine began no later than 2nd edition.... not sure about 1st edition and I am too lazy to bother to look.. hehe
risner
02-19-07, 08:49 PM If so, then there is almost no need to distinguish arcane scrolls from divine scrolls

False, scrolls are either divine or arcane.

A divine cure light scroll can't be used by a Bard without a UMD.
An arcane cure light scroll can't be used by a Druid without a UMD.

But any arcane caster can use an arcane cure light if they have cure light on their spell list (and are of the correct level) and the same goes for any divine caster with a divine cure light and cure light on their spell list.

Your interpretation of "in the right class" is incorrect. That means that you need the spell on a spell list and has nothing to do with blocking Sorcerers from using Wizard scrolls. I'm shocked you think that is true or supported by RAW.
Thomas_Covenant
02-19-07, 09:49 PM Where has WotC actually said this? I suspect from the number of times people have invoked this that it's a guideline they use, but I don't know where it came up. I'm not being antagonistic so much as curious.Primary trumps Secondary is at the start of every Errata file, but that's not actually being discussed.

"Specific trumps General" is in many ways implied, though I could swear I've seen it in print before.
Example:
If the "Combat" rules say "You may not do XQ.", or "XQ requires a full-round action."
If a feat says "You may do XQ as a standard action.", do you now have a contradiction in the rules?
Which takes precedence? The feat, the general "Combat" rules are overwritten whenever the feat applies.

Even if "Specific trumps General" is nowhere in print, I'd argue it is self-evident.
Specific spells trump general rules for Magic or anywhere else, rules for Staves trump rules for spell trigger items, and rules for Scrolls trump rules for spell completion items.

If Scrolls are the only spell completion item that exists, that is immaterial, and could change with the next book published.
The Scrolls section has a specific list of three conditions to be met to use a scroll without a check.
That outright trumps anything else in the SRD, unless it applies to a specific scroll.

EDIT: Does anyone know where "Specific trumps General" is in print?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eminon 02-19-07, 04:07 PM	I have a question for a class write-up I'm working on that is able to cast both Divine and Arcane spells. It occurs to me that this question is probably answered somewhere, but I have no clue where to begin looking. Anywhoo, here it is: If a character who is able to cast both Divine and Arcane spells casts a spell that is able to be cast by both Divine and Arcane spellcasters, such as Summon Monster, what type of spell is it cast as? This strikes me as something that may not come up often, but could be important if it does. Thanks for your help.
Thiez 02-19-07, 04:16 PM	A character does not mix spellslots from different classes. Suppose I was a Sorc 1 / Wiz 1. The sorcerer level does not know the Magic Missile spell, the Wizard level does. I can prepare and cast Magic Missile in and from the spellslots I have by virtue of having a level in the wizard class, but I can not cast magic missile from the spellslots I have from the sorcerer class. The class that is most like the class you describe in the OP would be the Mystic Theurge. It works just like multiclassing a divine and an arcane class: you have seperate spellslots for both classes and can only prepare spells from a class in the spellslots you have gained from having levels in that class. Now, if you cast a spell from a spellslot you gained from having levels in, let's say, the cleric class, that spell would be divine. However, if that spellslot would 'belong' to the wizard class, it would be arcane. Does that make sense? I hope it helps, and I'd like to point out that I think your class concept is no good, but I am curious as to how it will turn out nevertheless.
NerdNumber1 02-19-07, 04:17 PM	Mystic thuge PrC? Gesalt wiz/cleric? Multi-class? There are ways to get both sides of magic at once.
cwslyclgh 02-19-07, 04:23 PM	generaly, a single class gives access to only arcane or divine spells, in which case all the spells that the class can cast are of that type... (even spells that would normaly only be one or another... if a class casts arcane spells, and a spell normaly only found on a divine spell list such as Searing Light shows up on that classes spell list, then when that class casts Searing Light it would be an arcane spell). the only classes I can think of that "give access" both arcane and divine spells are prestige classes like Mystic Theurge which advance already possessed spell casting ability, in which case the spell lists remain seperate. there for it seems that you are treading new ground here, with your class, and although we could offer advice, there is nothing hard and fast in the rules to say how you should handle this. Personaly if I were to design a class I would simply chose to make all the spells thay cast either Arcane or Divine, all spells that were cast by members of that class would be what ever I chose for the class. (for an example of what I am talking about look at the Dread Necromancer cless in Heroes of Horror).
Eminon 02-19-07, 04:24 PM	The class I am working on is a True Conjurer (and yes, I will be working on one for each school of magic, I just chose this one first). The idea behind this being that since he has devoted himself solely to the study of Conjuration magic, and given up an ability to cast magic from other schools, he has access to all spells from the conjuration school, whether it is arcane or divine. If I understand your post correctly, I would be forced to split his spell list in two, making one divine and the other arcane. This seems complicated to me, but possibly do-able. I was just hoping there was an easy answer somewhere saying the spell would count as arcane in this situation or divine in that. Tell me if I'm interpreting your message wrong.
cwslyclgh 02-19-07, 04:28 PM	I would not split the spell list... I would simple state that all the spells that your true conjurer casts are arcane, all of the time, no matter what spell, no matter what list it came from, once it is on the true conjurers list it would be arcane (or divine if I chose to make the class a divine spell casting class instead)...
Thiez 02-19-07, 04:34 PM	Eh, if that's all your after, it's much easier. Like cwslyclgh (DUDE! fix that name! ;)) says, just say he casts arcane spells no matter where the spells came from originally.
NoldorForce 02-19-07, 04:42 PM	The confusion here is that the only WotC classes that cast spells from both the arcane and divine lists keep the arcane and divine progressions seperate. True Conjurer, however, is a homebrew class you're making, so those assumptions are out. Personally, I'd suggest that it be neither arcane nor divine, considering its connection purely to one school of magic. "But it needs to be one or the other!" BULL. It does not need to be either; the arcane/divine distinction has no reason for existence other than because someone (perhaps Gygax) said so, considering that it's mere flavor. After all, the artificer from ECS is neither arcane nor divine, and it functions just fine. (It too has a connection to one specific area of magic, namely that of crafting and buffing.)
Thiez 02-19-07, 04:50 PM	NoldorForce: Blasphemer. I love the way magic is split up in arcane and divine. And I like it how arcane and divine have their own advantages and disadvantages. Someone who devotes himself the the study of a single school is obviously arcane. There is no need to make him cast 'general' magic. In fact, it may (will) cause more problems than it solves ('solving' your inability to make a choice). Like, what type will your scrolls be?
Jaxgaret 02-19-07, 05:07 PM	There is a class that blurs the lines between divine and arcane casting: the Geomancer.
NoldorForce 02-19-07, 05:20 PM	The scrolls would be neither arcane nor divine, as the artificer's scrolls already are (according to errata and the FAQ). If that's a problem, well, keep in mind that by RAW sorcerers cannot use scrolls made by wizards without making a UMD check. Personally, I'd just say that if you could cast the spell normally (regardless of class), then you could also use the scroll. Oh, and keep in mind that said character can cast certain things normally kept to the divine casters, such as every single (Healing) spell. Really, arcane and divine magic have already had so much incest over the swapping of spells (given various feats, clerical domains, and class abilities that do this) that there is no true distinction between them. Rather, the distinction is between the classes that cast such spells. You don't need an arcane/divine delineation to seperate the casting classes. Besides, say that you wanted to make such a caster who, for flavor, drew his power from some otherworldly source - the Font of Creation, if you will. Or maybe he gets his magic from Aule, Forger of the Gods, and thus gains magic only from the implied school of magic - but because he gets it from Aule, he can access any sort of creation magic that he wishes to. There's a "divine" version for you. And all that changes is flavor.
Zherog 02-19-07, 05:45 PM	If that's a problem, well, keep in mind that by RAW sorcerers cannot use scrolls made by wizards without making a UMD check. :uh-huh: Well, there's an asertion I've never heard before...
RellenMarn 02-19-07, 05:57 PM	Sorcerers cannot cast scrolls created by Wizards... Cunquat? By what RAW, can you cite a source for that please?
JulesCARV 02-19-07, 06:05 PM	I think NoldorForce meant "scrolls created by artificers." Anyway, for a purist conjurer, I'd say go purely arcane.
Leress 02-19-07, 06:23 PM	NoldorForce: Blasphemer. I love the way magic is split up in arcane and divine. And I like it how arcane and divine have their own advantages and disadvantages. Someone who devotes himself the the study of a single school is obviously arcane. There is no need to make him cast 'general' magic. In fact, it may (will) cause more problems than it solves ('solving' your inability to make a choice). Like, what type will your scrolls be? Someone who devotes themselves to a single school is not arcane but a specialist. You can also make the scrolls both arcane and divine. A wizard could learn all the ever anyway.
NoldorForce 02-19-07, 06:49 PM	To use a spell completion item [scroll] safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already.Bolding mine. It's what the rules seem to say, though I would take the other extreme (as above) and require that you have the proper caster level and the spell on your spell list, similar to how spell trigger items work.
cwslyclgh 02-19-07, 07:10 PM	"in the right class" in this case just means that the spell is on your spell list, not that you actually have to exactly match the class of the scriber exactly.
NoldorForce 02-19-07, 07:36 PM	"in the right class" in this case just means that the spell is on your spell list, not that you actually have to exactly match the class of the scriber exactly.If so, then there is almost no need to distinguish arcane scrolls from divine scrolls; there are only a few corner cases (generally class abilities) where something operates differently if the spell is one of the two. And thus the scrolls argument against making the True Conjurer neither arcane nor divine would disappear. Unfortunately, the text on the artificer in the FAQ implies that this isn't the case.According to the official errata for the EBERRON campaign setting, the magic items crafted by an artificer are neither arcane nor divine. This has no bearing on the artificer’s ability to use the scroll, but it means that the scroll is useless to any other character without a successful Use Magic Device check.
cwslyclgh 02-19-07, 07:39 PM	not quite... scrolls are divided into arcane and divine for a purpose... but as long as you are an arcane caster and you have an arcane scroll with a spell on your spell list you can use it. your second point was trying to dispute something that I did not say, but appearently that you read into my response. here is the correct quote from the SRD: • The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.) • The user must have the spell on his or her class list. • The user must have the requisite ability score. Those are the requirements for using a scroll.
Constantin_Guderian 02-19-07, 08:00 PM	"But it needs to be one or the other!" BULL. S***. It does not need to be either; the arcane/divine distinction has no reason for existence other than because someone (perhaps Gygax) said so, considering that it's mere flavor. If by "flavor", you mean that Divine spellcasting is granted to the caster from a god or goddess or some other 'divine' source... and Arcane spellcasting is a product of innate power within the caster and some non-divine source, then I would say you are correct. But you are not correct, you are wrong! :P hehe P.S. Gary... if you are out there.. give me some love for defending you and your 'old-school' precepts from this young wipper-snapper! ;) hehehe
cwslyclgh 02-19-07, 08:03 PM	P.S. Gary... if you are out there.. give me some love for defending you and your 'old-school' precepts from this young wipper-snapper! heheheGary (as in Gygax) dislikes 3e and takes every opportunity to bad mouth it on the various forums he frequents, it would likley be a cold day in heck before he stopped by the WotC boards to offer up discusion ;)
NoldorForce 02-19-07, 08:08 PM	That's weird. Scrolls are the only spell completion items out there, so those two quotes contradict each other. Magic Item Basics text: -Have to be in the right class. -Have to be able "of high enough level...to cast the spell". This implies the need to match the caster level. -No mention of ability scores, but that may be implied. Magic Scrolls, Staffs, and Wands text: -Have to have it on your spell list. -Have to match the scroll's arcane/divine distinction. -Have to match the caster level. -Have to meet the minimum ability score to cast the spell. Where they differ: -Sorcerer tries to cast from a scroll made by a wizard. The former set says he can't ("in the right class"), but the latter says he can. -Chameleon with the Arcane Focus (but not the Divine Focus) tries to cast Detect Magic from a scroll. Said scroll is a divine scroll made through bait-and-switch by another chameleon. The former set says he can cast it, while the latter says he can't (doesn't meet the arcane/divine distinction). See the problem? @Constantin_Guderian: Err, what are you trying to say? (You seem to be saying that divine casting is not just from a deific source and/or arcane magic is not just from within, by the logic of your statements. But that appears to further my point instead of yours.)
cwslyclgh 02-19-07, 08:20 PM	in point of fact you do not have to be of high enough level to cast the spell when using a scroll, if you are not of high enough level to cast the spell normaly you have to make a successful caster level check to cast it off of the scroll, but you can do it. here is the relevant quote, it comes directly after the quote I posted above. If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell’s caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell’s caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap (see Scroll Mishaps, below). A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers.
NoldorForce 02-19-07, 08:25 PM	That doesn't address my point, which is that there are two separate paragraphs that delineate the use of scrolls, and that they contradict each other. It's not merely that one is more restrictive than the other; depending on the situation, either may be more restrictive than the other. (See the sorcerer/chameleon examples.)
cwslyclgh 02-19-07, 08:31 PM	the contradiction is an illusion, specific rules over ride general rules, what ever the general rules for spell completion items would be, they are over ridden by what is writen in the scroll section of the DMG when talking about scrolls. now this might seem confusing as scrolls are the only spell completion item out there, so you would think that the two sections should match, but in point of fact it doesn't matter if they do or not, because the section on scrolls tells you how they are used. even if the general section said that to use a spell completion device you have to tape it to your rear end and light it on fire, the section of scrolls would over rule that.
NoldorForce 02-19-07, 08:36 PM	specific rules over ride general rulesWhere has WotC actually said this? I suspect from the number of times people have invoked this that it's a guideline they use, but I don't know where it came up. I'm not being antagonistic so much as curious.
Constantin_Guderian 02-19-07, 08:38 PM	Gary (as in Gygax) dislikes 3e and takes every opportunity to bad mouth it on the various forums he frequents, it would likley be a cold day in heck before he stopped by the WotC boards to offer up discusion ;) ah well.. I think the v3.0 and v3.5 rulebooks (core) are incoherently written and terribly referenced... but the division between arcane and divine began no later than 2nd edition.... not sure about 1st edition and I am too lazy to bother to look.. hehe
risner 02-19-07, 08:49 PM	If so, then there is almost no need to distinguish arcane scrolls from divine scrolls False, scrolls are either divine or arcane. A divine cure light scroll can't be used by a Bard without a UMD. An arcane cure light scroll can't be used by a Druid without a UMD. But any arcane caster can use an arcane cure light if they have cure light on their spell list (and are of the correct level) and the same goes for any divine caster with a divine cure light and cure light on their spell list. Your interpretation of "in the right class" is incorrect. That means that you need the spell on a spell list and has nothing to do with blocking Sorcerers from using Wizard scrolls. I'm shocked you think that is true or supported by RAW.
Thomas_Covenant 02-19-07, 09:49 PM	Where has WotC actually said this? I suspect from the number of times people have invoked this that it's a guideline they use, but I don't know where it came up. I'm not being antagonistic so much as curious.Primary trumps Secondary is at the start of every Errata file, but that's not actually being discussed. "Specific trumps General" is in many ways implied, though I could swear I've seen it in print before. Example: If the "Combat" rules say "You may not do XQ.", or "XQ requires a full-round action." If a feat says "You may do XQ as a standard action.", do you now have a contradiction in the rules? Which takes precedence? The feat, the general "Combat" rules are overwritten whenever the feat applies. Even if "Specific trumps General" is nowhere in print, I'd argue it is self-evident. Specific spells trump general rules for Magic or anywhere else, rules for Staves trump rules for spell trigger items, and rules for Scrolls trump rules for spell completion items. If Scrolls are the only spell completion item that exists, that is immaterial, and could change with the next book published. The Scrolls section has a specific list of three conditions to be met to use a scroll without a check. That outright trumps anything else in the SRD, unless it applies to a specific scroll. EDIT: Does anyone know where "Specific trumps General" is in print?