Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hanniball 10-13-03, 12:59 AM	the arcane sight spell (ToB) allows a wizard or sorcerer to constantly know the strength and LOCATION of every magical aura within 120 feet. does this mean that if a rogue sneaks up on a wizard with an arcane sight spell in place that the wizard knows where the dagger is coming from and is therefore not flat-footed? doesn't that seem a little too powerful is so?
RhoPhiGamma 10-13-03, 01:29 AM	Arcane Sight (which is now in the 3.5 PHB) allows you to see the auras within 120'. It does not tell you that there is something magical outside your line of sight, such as the magical dagger in the hand of the rogue behind you. You know the location and power of all magical auras within your sight.
Hanniball 10-13-03, 01:39 AM	so the rules automatically assumes that you are only looking in one direction constantly...not moving/looking around in your 5ft square? does that mean that you are oblivious to the raging, charging barbarian that just ran up behind you, when last round you knew exactly where he was you just happened to fire a ray of enfeeblement at the fighter standing in the opposite direction? doesn't seem right to me...
RhoPhiGamma 10-13-03, 02:28 AM	Originally posted by Hanniball so the rules automatically assumes that you are only looking in one direction constantly...not moving/looking around in your 5ft square? The rules don't make any assumptions as to where you're looking, AFAIK. I always figured that was up to the DM and players. The DM has to make judgement calls depending on the situation. does that mean that you are oblivious to the raging, charging barbarian that just ran up behind you, when last round you knew exactly where he was you just happened to fire a ray of enfeeblement at the fighter standing in the opposite direction? Oblivious? Obviously (:D) not, because the barbarian is screaming his head off and charging at him. But he might be oblivious to the rogue who is quietly sneaking up to him from behind (depending on move silently and listen rolls).
Dracoulis The Phyrexian 10-13-03, 02:58 AM	Originally posted by Hanniball so the rules automatically assumes that you are only looking in one direction constantly...not moving/looking around in your 5ft square? does that mean that you are oblivious to the raging, charging barbarian that just ran up behind you, when last round you knew exactly where he was you just happened to fire a ray of enfeeblement at the fighter standing in the opposite direction? doesn't seem right to me... Not at all. It means that if someone is sneak attacking you (such as a surprise round), you didn't see the aura, and thus, are still subject to being flat-footed. Yes, this is reasonable to say. I don't know about you, but I'm not usually having people that I'm seeing sneak up on me. ;) And flanking is you being inable to put up an appropriate defense due to multiple opponents, so it can't help out there.
Luminous Crayon 10-13-03, 11:26 AM	Originally posted by Hanniball does that mean that you are oblivious to the raging, charging barbarian that just ran up behind you, when last round you knew exactly where he was you just happened to fire a ray of enfeeblement at the fighter standing in the opposite direction? That's not what the initiative system represents. You don't stand still like an inert chessman and wait for everyone else to move before you do anything else. The initiative system is there to represent the continuous chaos of combat in a way that makes it possible to play with dice and paper. If you know exactly where a raging barbarian is, but you turn you back anyway, that's no one's fault but your own (or whoever thought up the tactics that put you between two enemy tanks.) Doesn't mean you're oblivious to him, just means you're looking in the opposite direction when the impact comes.
bitnine 10-13-03, 11:33 AM	Originally posted by Luminous Crayon That's not what the initiative system represents. You don't stand still like an inert chessman and wait for everyone else to move before you do anything else. The initiative system is there to represent the continuous chaos of combat in a way that makes it possible to play with dice and paper. You mean it's not supposed to represent a number of combatants in a wild melee politely taking turns and acting one at a time? Because I always liked that image.
Hanniball 10-17-03, 09:08 PM	thanks for the posts but the question still hasn't been answered, IMO. i am aware of what is being represented by the system and was asking a retorical question... okay, let me put it more simply...a shadowdancer is standing in front of a wizard that just tried to blow him up (obviously failing to do so). so it comes to the shadowdancers init. and he decides that it's a good idea to hide. so he does so and the result of his hide tjeck is so insane that the wizard could never even hope to catch a glimpse of that pesky rogue. a magical dagger is drawn on the part of the rogue (hell, he quick draws the damn thing) and an attack is made on the flat-footed wizard. now, let's through arcane sight in the mix. the rogue hides and draws steel. the wizard (as per the description of arcane sight) instantly knows the location of any magical presence within 120ft. so he knows the location of the dagger and any other magical items in the rogues possession, especially when it's a dagger coming for his juggular. so with arcane sight in the mix, would the wizard still be caught flat-footed? if any clarification is needed just ask.
RhoPhiGamma 10-18-03, 12:41 AM	I see where you're coming from with arcane sight being a bit powerful when in situations such as these. Arcane Sight falls into the same area as detect evil revealing the fact that BBEG is infact Evil when he's been nothing but truly nice to the detector. If faced with a situation like your example of the Shadowdancer trying to HiPS from a wizard with AS, I'd allow the SD to try to conceal any magic radiating items or effects. Say require the wizard to make a caster level check adjusted by his wisdom modifier vs the SD's hide check. The only reason I'd do that was to prevent a characters Supernatural abilities to so easily circumvented. It's bad enough that Su abilities can be dispelled by dispel magic or suppressed by an antimagic field. If a similar situation occured with any other character using a normal hide skill, or someone who is invisible, I'd let the wizard see the auras as per the spells description. But that wouldn't prevent the wizard from being flanked or caught flat footed by a bluff.
PhaedrusXY 10-18-03, 02:43 AM	Originally posted by Hanniball so with arcane sight in the mix, would the wizard still be caught flat-footed? if any clarification is needed just ask. He's not being caught flat-footed in the description you give anyway. He's being attacked by an unseen attacker. And it is not the same thing. Both do deny you your Dex bonus to AC and make you vulnerable to being sneak attacked, however. Since in the description of the spell it says that you actually have to see the items to detect their auras, I'd say you'd still lose your Dex mod to AC. Heck, even if you can still sense the item after the rogue has hidden, it still doesn't change the fact that you can't see the rogue him/herself. If you're blind and know you're being attacked by a person in the square right in front of you, it still doesn't change the fact that you're blind and you still lose your Dex mod to AC. However, I could see how a DM might let Arcane Sight "see" someone using Hide in Plain sight, since technically the person with Arcane Sight would be able to see whatever magical effect it is that is actually hiding the Shadowdancer, since their HiPS is a supernatural ability.
Dheran 10-18-03, 07:35 PM	Originally posted by Hanniball the rogue hides and draws steel. the wizard (as per the description of arcane sight) instantly knows the location of any magical presence within 120ft. This is wrong. You don't know everything -- only what you can see. Arcane Sight This spell makes your eyes glow blue and allows you to see magical auras within 120 feet of you. The effect is similar to that of a detect magic spell, but arcane sight does not require concentration and discerns aura location and power more quickly. You know the location and power of all magical auras within your sight. An aura’s power depends on a spell’s functioning level or an item’s caster level, as noted in the description of the detect magic spell. If the items or creatures bearing the auras are in line of sight, you can make Spellcraft skill checks to determine the school of magic involved in each. (Make one check per aura; DC 15 + spell level, or 15 + one-half caster level for a nonspell effect.) Arcane Sight only works on what you're looking at. An opponent's Hide that's better than your Spot means you're not looking at them, so Arcane Sight doesn't help you.
Rerednaw 10-20-03, 05:42 PM	This goes back to which spells work against invisibility. Given that see invisibility is a level 2 spell and arcane sight is a level 3 spell, I would be inclined to say yes. I would even allow detect magic to work, but it takes 3 rounds of concentration to locate an invisible aura. However, if you consider this a cheesy way to defeat invisibility, you can always Rule 0 that it doesn't as it is your campaign. Within your sight refers to line of sight. If he is behind a corner it doesn't work. Facing is irrelevant. 3.0 and 3.5 does not have facing in terms of combat (which is silly because they do have cone effects but that's a different topic). Or perhaps an errata that states only greater arcane sight works against invisible objects/creatures will clarify this. Cheers.