Arcane spell falure [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcane spell falure [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tannis
05-13-04, 05:03 PM Does arcane spell falure from armor apply to devine spells? for example, does a cleric suffer from arcane spell falure?
Seeker95
05-13-04, 05:06 PM Nope. Divine casters don't cast arcane spells (by definition).
Lord Psynister
05-13-04, 05:12 PM Seeker's right on this one too. (He's almost always right, you should listen to this guy.)

Divine spells are not subject to Arcane spell failure, as they are not 'arcane' spells.
Tannis
05-13-04, 05:23 PM Very cool guys! i really appreciate that.

Just out of curosity, does it say devine spell casters do not suffer from armor arcane spell falure in the 3.0 PHB? Because i have looked all over and can't find it anywere.
Lord Psynister
05-13-04, 05:31 PM pg 105 in 3.0 PHB

Arcane Spell Failure: Armor interferes with the gestures you need to make to cast an arcane spell. Arcane spellcasters face the possibility of arcane spell failure if they're wearing armor, so wizards and sorcerers usually don't wear armor. Bards have a hard choice because they're more likely to get into combat than wizards and they cast fewer spells, so getting some armor makes more sense for them than it does for a wizard.

That's the closest thing I can find with the little time that I have right now.
Zherog
05-13-04, 05:32 PM Originally posted by Lord Psynister
Seeker's right on this one too. (He's almost always right, you should listen to this guy.)

Man, his head's gonna swell so big he won't fit through the doorway! :P :P :P
Beamup
05-13-04, 05:33 PM It says arcane spell casters suffer from arcane spell failure. There is no specific statement that divine do not. But then, it doesn't say that Paladins don't take ASF penalties on their attacks either.
Seeker95
05-13-04, 11:48 PM Arcane spell failure can occur if you are casting an arcane spell. The next time your cleric casts an arcane spell, you can worry about arcane spell failure. :P
Seeker95
05-13-04, 11:49 PM Originally posted by Zherog
Man, his head's gonna swell so big he won't fit through the doorway! :P :P :P A little help here. Should I use Crisco, margarine, or regular butter to grease my ears so I can get out the office door and into my bedroom? :P
smrtgmp
05-14-04, 04:42 AM Butter may be more fattening, but it would certainly taste better. Add a little olive oil to the mix and you're ready to go.:P
Seeker95
05-14-04, 07:54 AM smrtgmp, I'm not worried about the taste. I don't intend to have anyone *eating* my ears. Although, not that I think about it, I should bring this idea to my wife! ;)
Zherog
05-14-04, 12:10 PM Originally posted by Seeker95
A little help here. Should I use Crisco, margarine, or regular butter to grease my ears so I can get out the office door and into my bedroom? :P

It was more economical for me to widen the doorways in my house. ;)
Shadowfax7
05-14-04, 02:40 PM On a similar subject to this thread . . . I presume a Cleric's domain spell, which normally would be an arcane spell, is considered a divine spell for him/her ??

Thus no ASF for any domain spells.
rmiller_nub
05-14-04, 02:55 PM I can't recall where I read this exactly, but domain spells for a cleric are divine spells. A sorcerer/wizard with a domain memorizes domain spells as arcane spells.
Seeker95
05-14-04, 03:24 PM The only exception is when a cleric casts anyspell (FRCS). At that time, s/he is casting an arcane spell, and it is treated exactly like any other arcane spell. So it would be subject to ASF.
Lord Psynister
05-14-04, 03:28 PM No, a cleric does not suffere ASF when casting Domain spells.

Just because a wiz/sorc has access to the same spell doesn't mean it's an arcane spell. If it's cast by a divine caster, then it is a divine spell.

It's only arcane if cast by an arcane caster, which clerics are not.
UZI
05-14-04, 04:21 PM Quoth the SRD
MAGIC DOMAIN

Granted Power: Use scrolls, wands, and other devices with spell completion or spell trigger activation as a wizard of one-half your cleric level (at least 1st level). For the purpose of using a scroll or other magic device, if you are also a wizard, actual wizard levels and these effective wizard levels stack

I believe that a cleric in the Magic Domain using an arcane scroll would suffer ASF.
glenw77
05-14-04, 04:41 PM That makes sense, since they would be Arcane Scrolls instead of Divine Scrolls.

Quote:
Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance.
Tannis
05-19-04, 03:23 PM Damn 3.0
Knucklehead
11-25-04, 08:07 PM I'm trying to understand why arcane spells have ASF while divine spells do not. The ASF is not due to the "Arcane" label, but instead due to the somatic component of said spell. A Wiz/Sor doesn't suffer an ASF chance because they arcane casters, instead they suffer ASF when casting spells with somatic components. If you Still Spell the Arcane spell, you can still cast it without ASF and you can cast arcane spells that have no components.

So my question is, what makes a divine spell different? They have somatic components too. The cleric in full plate is still waving his hands around, right? Should it be assumed by the ASF that arcane spells have more complicated somatic components? Is a Detect Magic spell cast by a cleric different than one cast by a wizard?

Then you have the sticky subject of 3.5 bards. WotC says their spells have "simple" components so they can cast spells in light armor. Can those same spells be cast by a Wiz/Sor in light armor? Why would a bard be able to cast Detect Magic in light armor while a wizard has ASF?
UltimaGabe
11-25-04, 08:47 PM So my question is, what makes a divine spell different? They have somatic components too. The cleric in full plate is still waving his hands around, right? Should it be assumed by the ASF that arcane spells have more complicated somatic components? Is a Detect Magic spell cast by a cleric different than one cast by a wizard?

Yes. According to the PHB, the somatic components of Divine spells don't have to be as "precise" as with an Arcane caster, and thus they don't suffer ASF. As for Bards, it's the same way- Bards don't cast spells the same way Wizards do. After all, Bard spells can't be Silenced- thus, we're shown that there's enough difference between a Bard and Sorcerer casting the same spell to indicate that it's a matter of the caster's class, not the spell itself.

It doesn't say in the PHB that a Wizard casting Silent Image doesn't suffer ASF, so even though a Bard can do the same thing without it, a Wizard still suffers.
Seeker95
11-25-04, 08:57 PM I'm trying to understand why arcane spells have ASF while divine spells do not.Because the original designers meant for wizards to have a hard time wearing armor.
Each subsequent edition went with this concept.
No other explanation is needed.
Knucklehead
11-25-04, 09:03 PM Because the original designers meant for wizards to have a hard time wearing armor.
I knew the answer was, "Because." WotC should have just put that in there.

Q: Why doesn't armor affect divine spells?
A: Because.
IMarvinTPA
11-25-04, 09:12 PM Wizards don't have a god given right to get their spells off. They have to work with their hands to get just the right gesture off or else it goes poof. When that happens, it is usually followed by another gesture or two, which are a little less arcane.

Clerics and Paladins do have a god given right to get their spells off, so they just have to gesture enough so that their god knows what they're up to. Good gods generally frown upon the extra gestures when their concentration check fails if they forgot to cast defensively or did and screwed up.

IMarv
Edymnion
11-25-04, 09:15 PM So my question is, what makes a divine spell different? They have somatic components too. The cleric in full plate is still waving his hands around, right? Should it be assumed by the ASF that arcane spells have more complicated somatic components? Is a Detect Magic spell cast by a cleric different than one cast by a wizard?Its quite simple, really.
Wizards use arcane formulas and words of power and all that rot to twist the magic that already exists in the world to his bidding. For him, its like solving an equation. 2x + 3y = 7w. Once you know what some of the variables are (aka you learn the spell), you can then insert the values, move things around (aka do your verbal and somatic components), and then bam, you've solved the equation (cast the spell).

Sorcerers do more or less the same, but they "do it in their head" as opposed to doing it on paper.

Divine casters don't do it this way though. Divine casters essentially say "Hey, there's a math problem. I'll just ask my big brother what the answer is." Aka, they summon their god for help. God/Big Brother comes along and says "Oh yeah, its 42", equation solved, spell cast.

So Divine casters themselves DO NOT CAST SPELLS. They call upon an outside force to cast spells for them, be it their god, or an abstract power, like nature. For them, the verbal and somantic components aren't the precise equation manipulations it is for arcane casters, its more akin to waving your hand to get big brother's attention and yelling "Hey, can you help me solve this one?"

Thats why a caster that no longer follows his god can no longer cast spells, because they can't call on their god to do it for them anymore.
Heron_Marked_Blade
11-25-04, 09:49 PM That's a great way to look at it, Edymnion. Good word picture. :)
Egres
11-26-04, 06:47 AM The only exception is when a cleric casts anyspell (FRCS). At that time, s/he is casting an arcane spell, and it is treated exactly like any other arcane spell. So it would be subject to ASF.

Just because a wiz/sorc has access to the same spell doesn't mean it's an arcane spell. If it's cast by a divine caster, then it is a divine spell.

It's only arcane if cast by an arcane caster, which clerics are not.

Seeker's right on this one too. (He's almost always right, you should listen to this guy.)
:D
Seeker95
11-26-04, 09:42 AM [deleted] .
Knucklehead
11-26-04, 01:05 PM Okay fellas, let me bring in the Unearthed Arcana generic spellcaster. From UA, pg. 77 under spellcasting:
A Spellcaster learns and casts spells as a sorcerer. She may select her spells known from the cleric, druid, and sorcerer/wizard spell lists.
A spellcaster must choose as 1st level whether to be an arcane spellcaster or a divine spellcaster. This choice has no impact on the spells that she may learn, but affects what kinds of scrolls she can use and which ability score controls her spellcasting. An arcane spellcaster may designate either Intelligence or Charisma as the ability score that determines the highest-level spell she can learn or cast, and the difficulty class of her spell's saving throws. A divine spellcaster must use Wisdom to determine the highest-level spell she can learn or cast, and the difficulty class of her spell's saving throws.
Whould it be balanced to have ASF affect the arcane spellcaster and not the divine spellcaster?
Seeker95
11-26-04, 02:24 PM Okay fellas, let me bring in the Unearthed Arcana generic spellcaster.
Whould it be balanced to have ASF affect the arcane spellcaster and not the divine spellcaster?Yes.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tannis 05-13-04, 05:03 PM	Does arcane spell falure from armor apply to devine spells? for example, does a cleric suffer from arcane spell falure?
Seeker95 05-13-04, 05:06 PM	Nope. Divine casters don't cast arcane spells (by definition).
Lord Psynister 05-13-04, 05:12 PM	Seeker's right on this one too. (He's almost always right, you should listen to this guy.) Divine spells are not subject to Arcane spell failure, as they are not 'arcane' spells.
Tannis 05-13-04, 05:23 PM	Very cool guys! i really appreciate that. Just out of curosity, does it say devine spell casters do not suffer from armor arcane spell falure in the 3.0 PHB? Because i have looked all over and can't find it anywere.
Lord Psynister 05-13-04, 05:31 PM	pg 105 in 3.0 PHB Arcane Spell Failure: Armor interferes with the gestures you need to make to cast an arcane spell. Arcane spellcasters face the possibility of arcane spell failure if they're wearing armor, so wizards and sorcerers usually don't wear armor. Bards have a hard choice because they're more likely to get into combat than wizards and they cast fewer spells, so getting some armor makes more sense for them than it does for a wizard. That's the closest thing I can find with the little time that I have right now.
Zherog 05-13-04, 05:32 PM	Originally posted by Lord Psynister Seeker's right on this one too. (He's almost always right, you should listen to this guy.) Man, his head's gonna swell so big he won't fit through the doorway! :P :P :P
Beamup 05-13-04, 05:33 PM	It says arcane spell casters suffer from arcane spell failure. There is no specific statement that divine do not. But then, it doesn't say that Paladins don't take ASF penalties on their attacks either.
Seeker95 05-13-04, 11:48 PM	Arcane spell failure can occur if you are casting an arcane spell. The next time your cleric casts an arcane spell, you can worry about arcane spell failure. :P
Seeker95 05-13-04, 11:49 PM	Originally posted by Zherog Man, his head's gonna swell so big he won't fit through the doorway! :P :P :P A little help here. Should I use Crisco, margarine, or regular butter to grease my ears so I can get out the office door and into my bedroom? :P
smrtgmp 05-14-04, 04:42 AM	Butter may be more fattening, but it would certainly taste better. Add a little olive oil to the mix and you're ready to go.:P
Seeker95 05-14-04, 07:54 AM	smrtgmp, I'm not worried about the taste. I don't intend to have anyone eating my ears. Although, not that I think about it, I should bring this idea to my wife! ;)
Zherog 05-14-04, 12:10 PM	Originally posted by Seeker95 A little help here. Should I use Crisco, margarine, or regular butter to grease my ears so I can get out the office door and into my bedroom? :P It was more economical for me to widen the doorways in my house. ;)
Shadowfax7 05-14-04, 02:40 PM	On a similar subject to this thread . . . I presume a Cleric's domain spell, which normally would be an arcane spell, is considered a divine spell for him/her ?? Thus no ASF for any domain spells.
rmiller_nub 05-14-04, 02:55 PM	I can't recall where I read this exactly, but domain spells for a cleric are divine spells. A sorcerer/wizard with a domain memorizes domain spells as arcane spells.
Seeker95 05-14-04, 03:24 PM	The only exception is when a cleric casts anyspell (FRCS). At that time, s/he is casting an arcane spell, and it is treated exactly like any other arcane spell. So it would be subject to ASF.
Lord Psynister 05-14-04, 03:28 PM	No, a cleric does not suffere ASF when casting Domain spells. Just because a wiz/sorc has access to the same spell doesn't mean it's an arcane spell. If it's cast by a divine caster, then it is a divine spell. It's only arcane if cast by an arcane caster, which clerics are not.
UZI 05-14-04, 04:21 PM	Quoth the SRD MAGIC DOMAIN Granted Power: Use scrolls, wands, and other devices with spell completion or spell trigger activation as a wizard of one-half your cleric level (at least 1st level). For the purpose of using a scroll or other magic device, if you are also a wizard, actual wizard levels and these effective wizard levels stack I believe that a cleric in the Magic Domain using an arcane scroll would suffer ASF.
glenw77 05-14-04, 04:41 PM	That makes sense, since they would be Arcane Scrolls instead of Divine Scrolls. Quote: Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance.
Tannis 05-19-04, 03:23 PM	Damn 3.0
Knucklehead 11-25-04, 08:07 PM	I'm trying to understand why arcane spells have ASF while divine spells do not. The ASF is not due to the "Arcane" label, but instead due to the somatic component of said spell. A Wiz/Sor doesn't suffer an ASF chance because they arcane casters, instead they suffer ASF when casting spells with somatic components. If you Still Spell the Arcane spell, you can still cast it without ASF and you can cast arcane spells that have no components. So my question is, what makes a divine spell different? They have somatic components too. The cleric in full plate is still waving his hands around, right? Should it be assumed by the ASF that arcane spells have more complicated somatic components? Is a Detect Magic spell cast by a cleric different than one cast by a wizard? Then you have the sticky subject of 3.5 bards. WotC says their spells have "simple" components so they can cast spells in light armor. Can those same spells be cast by a Wiz/Sor in light armor? Why would a bard be able to cast Detect Magic in light armor while a wizard has ASF?
UltimaGabe 11-25-04, 08:47 PM	So my question is, what makes a divine spell different? They have somatic components too. The cleric in full plate is still waving his hands around, right? Should it be assumed by the ASF that arcane spells have more complicated somatic components? Is a Detect Magic spell cast by a cleric different than one cast by a wizard? Yes. According to the PHB, the somatic components of Divine spells don't have to be as "precise" as with an Arcane caster, and thus they don't suffer ASF. As for Bards, it's the same way- Bards don't cast spells the same way Wizards do. After all, Bard spells can't be Silenced- thus, we're shown that there's enough difference between a Bard and Sorcerer casting the same spell to indicate that it's a matter of the caster's class, not the spell itself. It doesn't say in the PHB that a Wizard casting Silent Image doesn't suffer ASF, so even though a Bard can do the same thing without it, a Wizard still suffers.
Seeker95 11-25-04, 08:57 PM	I'm trying to understand why arcane spells have ASF while divine spells do not.Because the original designers meant for wizards to have a hard time wearing armor. Each subsequent edition went with this concept. No other explanation is needed.
Knucklehead 11-25-04, 09:03 PM	Because the original designers meant for wizards to have a hard time wearing armor. I knew the answer was, "Because." WotC should have just put that in there. Q: Why doesn't armor affect divine spells? A: Because.
IMarvinTPA 11-25-04, 09:12 PM	Wizards don't have a god given right to get their spells off. They have to work with their hands to get just the right gesture off or else it goes poof. When that happens, it is usually followed by another gesture or two, which are a little less arcane. Clerics and Paladins do have a god given right to get their spells off, so they just have to gesture enough so that their god knows what they're up to. Good gods generally frown upon the extra gestures when their concentration check fails if they forgot to cast defensively or did and screwed up. IMarv
Edymnion 11-25-04, 09:15 PM	So my question is, what makes a divine spell different? They have somatic components too. The cleric in full plate is still waving his hands around, right? Should it be assumed by the ASF that arcane spells have more complicated somatic components? Is a Detect Magic spell cast by a cleric different than one cast by a wizard?Its quite simple, really. Wizards use arcane formulas and words of power and all that rot to twist the magic that already exists in the world to his bidding. For him, its like solving an equation. 2x + 3y = 7w. Once you know what some of the variables are (aka you learn the spell), you can then insert the values, move things around (aka do your verbal and somatic components), and then bam, you've solved the equation (cast the spell). Sorcerers do more or less the same, but they "do it in their head" as opposed to doing it on paper. Divine casters don't do it this way though. Divine casters essentially say "Hey, there's a math problem. I'll just ask my big brother what the answer is." Aka, they summon their god for help. God/Big Brother comes along and says "Oh yeah, its 42", equation solved, spell cast. So Divine casters themselves DO NOT CAST SPELLS. They call upon an outside force to cast spells for them, be it their god, or an abstract power, like nature. For them, the verbal and somantic components aren't the precise equation manipulations it is for arcane casters, its more akin to waving your hand to get big brother's attention and yelling "Hey, can you help me solve this one?" Thats why a caster that no longer follows his god can no longer cast spells, because they can't call on their god to do it for them anymore.
Heron_Marked_Blade 11-25-04, 09:49 PM	That's a great way to look at it, Edymnion. Good word picture. :)
Egres 11-26-04, 06:47 AM	The only exception is when a cleric casts anyspell (FRCS). At that time, s/he is casting an arcane spell, and it is treated exactly like any other arcane spell. So it would be subject to ASF. Just because a wiz/sorc has access to the same spell doesn't mean it's an arcane spell. If it's cast by a divine caster, then it is a divine spell. It's only arcane if cast by an arcane caster, which clerics are not. Seeker's right on this one too. (He's almost always right, you should listen to this guy.) :D
Seeker95 11-26-04, 09:42 AM	[deleted] .
Knucklehead 11-26-04, 01:05 PM	Okay fellas, let me bring in the Unearthed Arcana generic spellcaster. From UA, pg. 77 under spellcasting: A Spellcaster learns and casts spells as a sorcerer. She may select her spells known from the cleric, druid, and sorcerer/wizard spell lists. A spellcaster must choose as 1st level whether to be an arcane spellcaster or a divine spellcaster. This choice has no impact on the spells that she may learn, but affects what kinds of scrolls she can use and which ability score controls her spellcasting. An arcane spellcaster may designate either Intelligence or Charisma as the ability score that determines the highest-level spell she can learn or cast, and the difficulty class of her spell's saving throws. A divine spellcaster must use Wisdom to determine the highest-level spell she can learn or cast, and the difficulty class of her spell's saving throws. Whould it be balanced to have ASF affect the arcane spellcaster and not the divine spellcaster?
Seeker95 11-26-04, 02:24 PM	Okay fellas, let me bring in the Unearthed Arcana generic spellcaster. Whould it be balanced to have ASF affect the arcane spellcaster and not the divine spellcaster?Yes.