Post/Author/DateTime	Post
crowclub 09-22-06, 01:56 PM	Just how much AC should an Arcane Caster be aiming for? With AC available from Rings, Spells, Equipment etc. what AC do you aim to get? Wizards and Sorcerer's are more likely to use Invisibility, Greater Invisibility, Mirror Image, Concealment, Displacement etc....... to avoid being hit, so is AC all that important?
mvincent 09-22-06, 02:06 PM	Just how much AC should an Arcane Caster be aiming for?As a PC, I aim for level +20 (that includes things like mage armor, alter-self into a troglodyte, mithral buckler, etc.)
Jerks 09-22-06, 03:08 PM	AC is good and all, but with Invisibility, Mirror Image, Fly, Dimension Door, etc. it isn't quite as important to you as it is to your fronline guys. I wouldn't try and fill up too many slots with AC boosting items. If found, these are better given to the party tanks, since they'll be the target of a lot of attacks than you are.
Fruscht 09-22-06, 06:42 PM	AC is good and all, but with Invisibility, Mirror Image, Fly, Dimension Door, etc. it isn't quite as important to you as it is to your fronline guys. I wouldn't try and fill up too many slots with AC boosting items. If found, these are better given to the party tanks, since they'll be the target of a lot of attacks than you are. Agreed. Mirror Image gives you greater protection than AC, IMHO, especially because it also works against targeted spells.
crowclub 09-22-06, 06:42 PM	AC is good and all, but with Invisibility, Mirror Image, Fly, Dimension Door, etc. it isn't quite as important to you as it is to your fronline guys. I wouldn't try and fill up too many slots with AC boosting items. If found, these are better given to the party tanks, since they'll be the target of a lot of attacks than you are. Ok, so how high do you want your AC
smrtgmp 09-22-06, 06:53 PM	I usually go for a decent AC, but not at the expense of multiple item slots. Instead, spells like greater mage armor, alter self (especially if you can get the dragon type) and the like generally protect you well enough. Keep in mind that illusory defenses become less effective at high levels when trueseeing comes into play (though not everyone has access to TS, and if they do your DM is an ass). As far as protective items are concerned, I like a twilight mithril chain shirt and a mithril buckler, both of which have no ASF. Not only will these keep your AC respectalbe, but they can also hold useful enchantments such as deathward and fortification. If your DM allows them, pick up some mithril dastanas (from A&EG). In Eberron, the Tunic of Thurrinak provides both a deflection bonus and a natural armor bonus to AC with a single slot (vest), making it a solid investment. With the above items, you'll still have your best item slots (rings and amulets) available for more utilitarian items.
Fruscht 09-22-06, 07:00 PM	... mithril dastanas (from A&EG). ... What are these? Could you please give more details?
smrtgmp 09-22-06, 07:05 PM	they're basically arm guards that stack with light armor, giving you an extra +1 to your AC. They can also be further enchanted, though I would reccomend against allowing enhancement bonuses from the armor and dastanas from stacking, even though they would by a strict reading of the item. Even without that, you can still load them up with other goodies like slick and silent and the like.
Fruscht 09-22-06, 07:09 PM	Tnx, Smrtgmp. :)
smrtgmp 09-22-06, 07:12 PM	de nada :)
Jerks 09-22-06, 07:22 PM	Ok, so how high do you want your AC Well the last wizard I had rarely got hit. For one he rarely got targetted, secondly he was pretty defensive minded. Mage armor should always be up. Shield if you have time. Mirror Image and Blink work very well together, as they give two different types of protection (granted you have a slight change to whiff on your attacks as well). Dimension Door for those times when you get caught in a bad spot. However, the most important thing to his defense was the paladin in the party. Kept him close at all times. He could fight, was always in range to be hasted, and could heal you if things got bad.
solbergb 09-22-06, 08:41 PM	Um....12? That's my 10th level sorceress's AC. Of course she's really good at mobility and at battlefield control, plus has a decent constitution and false life and gloves of arrow snaring for folks who try to ready to interrupt her spellcasting with bows. But mostly she just doesn't hang around to be full attacked. If you don't nail her before her first action, you won't get many opportunities to use her AC against her. My gnome wizard's AC was even lower for most of the game, but when we started getting swarmed by incorporeals in the level 11-13 range I put together some minute/level buffs that worked pretty well.....mage armor, cat grace, reduce person, blur and mirror image. That kicked her incorporeal touch AC up to 17 and made even her mirror images hard to hit. Shield wasn't an option, she eschewed abjuration. She was an 18 con character without false life, so again she had enough hitpoint reserve to take a swat or two without going down.
smrtgmp 09-22-06, 08:48 PM	...she eschewed abjuration...ouch. was it a prohibited school? Or just a matter of taste?
vorticone 09-23-06, 10:56 AM	It's fun being a dwarf wizard and standing in Full Plate armor right next to the fighter and hurl a fireball at the enemies. Having one level in the Runesmith PrC certainly helps with poorish arcane caster ac. :D
Vassiliod 09-23-06, 02:41 PM	Only with his Dexterity (20, giving +5) and his spells (Greater mage armor for +6 and usually, when I think there will be danger, an Extended Shield spell for +4), my 11th elf sorcerer has 25 AC. If you add magic items like a ring with a deflection bonus and the Haste spell (which is often the first spell I cast in a battle, and give a +1 dodge bonus) it can be better ; add the natural armor provided by some Polymorph (Green hag and Night hag have something like +11 which is very good, even if you may loose some Dex bonus) and it's perfect if you really need high AC. One thing I will probably do one day is taking levels in the Argent savant (aka Force mage) PrC, to add +2 to Greater mage armor and to Shield, to have finally +14 with only two spells... As far I'm concerned, I aim on having at least 20-25. Fly or Spider climb (to hang on the ceiling and cast spells far over the melee) are also good ; I'm often with an extended Spider climb spell cast on me.
joseccb 09-23-06, 02:55 PM	Mithral Twilight Celestial Armor (+8 Armor Bonus, MAx DEx: +10, No ASF, no ACP), otherwise Greater Mage Armor (+6bonus), and Shield (+4bonus) Natural Armor Amulet and Ring of Deflection, and a 30 something AC would be good (10 + 6Armor + 4 Shield + 5 Dex +3Deflect + 2Natural) = AC 30 at the cost of two spells, high dex, and 26,000 gp (Ring and Amulet), If you want more, you can buy the armor for 30k something and AC would be 32... However at higher levels, spells like Greater Blink and Greater Mirror Image would do the job, Celerity is also a great defense spell and sometimes having good AC is not that good. Ironguard, Wind Wall, Mirror Image can make you efficiently better protected.
crowclub 09-23-06, 03:49 PM	A lot of posts have suggested Shield, but what I don't get is why not just use one? A +2 Mithril Buckler is only 5000, and a +3 is 10000. It's not like you need both hands free all the time. Also it's another spell to cast. Mage Armour lasts hours and shields are constant too. At present I'm going with... Dex 18, so thats +4 +1 Mithril Buckler +2 +1 Ring of Protection. +1 Greater Mage Armour +6 This gives me AC 23. I use Mirror Image, Fly and Invisibility defensively which seem more effective than the AC. I can also Alter Self (Troglodyte) for +6 to take it to AC 29. I will upgrade the Buckler as soon as I get some cash!
Fruscht 09-23-06, 09:37 PM	Level 10 wizard for example: Reduce person: +1 (+2 size dex), +1 (size) Cat's grace: +2 (+4 enhancement dex) Haste: +1 Dragonskin: +5 natural armor (at level 10), and you are not alter-selfing/polymorphing into something ugly :) Greater Mage Armor: +6 Shield: +4 Ring of protection +2 Total: 32 AC, and this is without any Dex your wizard should have in the first place.
Vanigo 09-23-06, 10:43 PM	I'd say either 40+ or ignore it completely and go for concealment and the like. 5 dex+8 armor+5 deflection+8 natural (some from being in an alternate form)+change should do it. It's pricey, though; you may just want to ignore AC and get your blink on.
runestar 09-23-06, 11:34 PM	A lot of posts have suggested Shield, but what I don't get is why not just use one? A +2 Mithril Buckler is only 5000, and a +3 is 10000. It's not like you need both hands free all the time. Also it's another spell to cast. Mage Armour lasts hours and shields are constant too. Early on, it is usually more cost effective to rely on potions/scrolls/wands of extended buff spells rather than rely on more expensive magic items. :) That's why potions are so nice for NPCs. It is far more economical to outfit orcs with potions of bull's str rather than give out belts of giant str.:P
SageBahamut 09-23-06, 11:38 PM	Why not just pick up an animated tower shield while you're at it? :D Seriously though, especially at high levels I start to favor miss chance over AC for all characters.
obrysii 09-23-06, 11:46 PM	Depending on race, you could potentially... If you are a Hengeyokai (Sparrow), your AC could be: AC 45 (10 base + 8 size + 9 dex + 1 haste + 5 natural + 6 armor + 4 shield + 2 deflection) Using the described methods of Fruscht, and combining it in Sparrow form (if you take Surrogate Spellcasting, you can cast spells in sparrow form, so it's nice to be a Hengeyokai (sparrow).)
KmartKommando 09-24-06, 01:37 AM	We have a wizard with AC43, while the rest of the party averages around AC32. An unlucky Greater Dispel Magic would screw him up for a while, but still..
crowclub 09-24-06, 04:13 AM	I'd say either 40+ or ignore it completely and go for concealment and the like. 5 dex+8 armor+5 deflection+8 natural (some from being in an alternate form)+change should do it. It's pricey, though; you may just want to ignore AC and get your blink on. Blink comes with a 20% chance of failing your own spells, surely thats not good?
Jerks 09-24-06, 10:23 AM	Blink comes with a 20% chance of failing your own spells, surely thats not good? Well, you suffer a 20% miss chance on targetting spells, not outright failing them. Touch spells are very much complimentary with blink. If you miss the attack roll with your touch spell, you can hold the charge and try again with your next attack. Also, personal spells have no chance of failing in this instance, so feel free to buff yourself.
crowclub 09-24-06, 01:37 PM	I do like the idea of Blink, and was thinking alone the lines of a Blink Ring. It's a shame that it's a standard action to activate/de-activate rather than an immediate or swift action.
Vanigo 09-24-06, 02:41 PM	Blink comes with a 20% chance of failing your own spells, surely thats not good? Well, improved blink.
Kyle_the_wizard 09-24-06, 03:06 PM	Our level 20 party has everyone averageing high 20s low 30s and my sorcerer sits at 45 when he has 3-5 rounds to buff... and if he's really angry he throws out the blurs and invisiblity... than major images himself infront of other people.
Osedox 09-24-06, 03:23 PM	I usuly aim for around 30ish by high levels withought having to cast spells. And when I do cast spells to protect myself, they are rarely they type that raise my AC, I find things like Concealment and the likes way more effective. Spells like Wings of cover and Deflect are nice too especially if you are a Sorcerer with a Ring of Wizardry II.
Black Mantha 09-24-06, 04:26 PM	I've never reached a high level with a wizard, but what I got from the treasure tables, I could get my AC up to 40. Then I looked at the monsters at that level, and saw that that's their attack bonus. Oh, and for alter self? Try a malenti, a mutatant sahuagin. +5 AC, swim 40, and they look like aquatic elves. The light and freshwater sensitivity is a pain, though.
Wire 09-24-06, 05:54 PM	I'm still amazed at how many wizards insist on casting Shield in the beginning rounds of combat. It's a totally insignificant spell especially when there are so many other good Standard Actions they could use to significantly alter the strategic outcome of the current battle.
Fruscht 09-24-06, 06:39 PM	It just occured to me: natural armor bonus from Alter Self should stack with natural armor enhancement bonuses (like Dragonskin). So, add 8 (Crucian) to my previous calculation (which was 32), for a nice round 40 AC. Not bad for a sorcerer/wizard, eh? :) Although I still prefer Greater Mirror Image or Greater Blink over those 4-5 rounds of improving your AC.
Wire 09-25-06, 01:21 AM	The Alter Self spell alone gives an arcanist with the Outsider type a whopping ... + 18 Natural Armor Bonus ... assuming he takes the form of a Dwarf Ancestor (MM4 book). Granted, you also have to take a -1 Size penalty to AC (due to Large size). But for those who take the Otherworldly feat, take a starting Outsider race (Neraph, Aasimar), or become an Outsider via PrC special benefit, this is the best form to take for high AC. Trumping that of the Crucian or Tren (Serpent Kingdoms).
pmurray@bigpond.com 09-25-06, 01:30 AM	I'm playing 13th level, and I no longer care about AC. At this level, if something gets a melee attack on me, it will hit. Fly, greater invis, expeditious retreat, and just staying the hell out of the way are the way to go. Oh - max out Tumble and Concentration to avoid AOOs. Seriously - review the rules on casting defensively.
Wire 09-25-06, 01:39 AM	I'm playing 13th level, and I no longer care about AC. At this level, if something gets a melee attack on me, it will hit.That's true. Even a half-ass attempt at building up a wizard's AC (say, via Bracers/Mage Armor spell plus Shield spell, etc.) doesn't pay off. As I somewhat stated in a prior post, in lieu of casting in-combat defensive buffs, cast spells that will end the fight quicker or give your party the tempo or positioning advantage instead. The best defense in this case, is a strong offense that doesn't give an enemy a pay-off for making attacks against the arcanist.
angryman 09-25-06, 10:28 AM	AC is less important than not getting hit at all. My highest level wizard (17) has an AC of 23, which is more than enough. Don't ignore it entirely, though. Power attacking a low AC creature hurts. :(
Killer_Calamari 09-25-06, 10:43 AM	Shield is good because it blocks Magic Missles, but for me "Improved Invisibility" can be a nice spell to start off with.
crowclub 09-25-06, 01:14 PM	I'm going with Greater Blink as it avoids most attacks, followed by Mirror Image. These two alone should do the trick most of the time. If there is preparation time ahead of an encounter then Alter Self (Troglodyte +6 Natural Armour) to add to the Greater Mage Armour (+6) and the +3 Mithril Shield (+4) and 18 Dex (+4) for a total AC of 30. If anything can get through Greater Blink, Mirror Image, 30 AC AND my +19 to saves (via Ruin Delver's Fortune), well, then I guess I'll be needing the Clerics Skills in Raise Dead !!
Jerks 09-25-06, 02:08 PM	Shield is a nice spell, sure mage armor last longer but they do stack and it provides immunity to magic missiles, but for mages AC isn't really that high of a priority. You've got so many ways to avoid detection and targetting at your disposal that your enemies should have a virtual check-list of things to go through before they even get to consider your AC. Heck, just standing behind the party cleric or tank will net you +4 AC from soft cover.
solbergb 09-25-06, 02:20 PM	ouch. was it a prohibited school? Or just a matter of taste? It made the most sense. It's complex and was a pure roleplay decision, but right when we did the 3.0 to 3.5 conversion in that campaign (illusionist not favored class of gnomes, different forbidden school rules) the character died, and we used the death to rebuild it in 3.5. Incharacter though, stripping the one level of cleric as the "lost" level for death meant also stripping the most similar schools (abjuration and necromancy) All I really missed though, was dispel magic. Self defense was covered pretty well just by having a high gnomish constitution and miss-chance spells, with area defense covered by conjuration (shadow and otherwise). I used phantasmal killer (rarely) where you'd normally use dismissal. Things like that.
solbergb 09-25-06, 02:25 PM	I'm still amazed at how many wizards insist on casting Shield in the beginning rounds of combat. It's a totally insignificant spell especially when there are so many other good Standard Actions they could use to significantly alter the strategic outcome of the current battle. Yeah. At any level when I see a wiz doing that in combat, I write him off as having a useless player. As a quickened spell, or as a pre-combat buff that's fine. In combat? Do ANYTHING but a self-protective spell that just adds a little AC. I tend to be pretty down on casting self-buffs of any kind in combat with the standard action (quickened buffing is ok, as long as your std action helps the party). Because what it really does is take you out of the fight for a round, instead of contributing. The only exception is when all the bad guys are focusing on you or at least theratening you, and you're just trying to stay alive. In that situation you are helping the party by drawing fire, and by not needing rescue. Most of the time though, self-buffs are about the worst possible thing you could do. Even just doing a withdraw action to get yourself out of harms way is often better (because it frees you in every later round to do something more useful) A side rant on magic missiles. NOBODY shoots magic missiles at the party arcanist. They shoot it at the fullplate tank or cleric, who can't be hit any other way. Plus they'll wonder if you have shield running and not want to waste an action in case you do. After my sorceress had an encounter with a room filled with low level sorceresses concentrating magic missiles...and STILL didn't use her "shield" Scroll, she just sold the stupid thing. She literally had better things to do, even though magic missiles were the only threat. If our targeted guy hadn't been as tough, a simple obscuring mist would have protected the whole party from it, not just her.
dvlsadvct 09-25-06, 02:29 PM	Alright, where would one find 'twilight'? I am going insane rummaging through all these books.
smrtgmp 09-25-06, 02:59 PM	It was originally printed (so far as I know) in the book of exalted deed. It was reprinted in the Explorer's Guide to Eberron, and again in one of the recent books, though I dont remember which. Basically it lowers the ASF of a suit of armor by 10%, so a twilight mithril chain shirt has 0% ASF. Its a +1.
crowclub 09-25-06, 03:08 PM	It was originally printed (so far as I know) in the book of exalted deed. It was reprinted in the Explorer's Guide to Eberron, and again in one of the recent books, though I dont remember which. Basically it lowers the ASF of a suit of armor by 10%, so a twilight mithril chain shirt has 0% ASF. Its a +1. There is a side note about it in PHB2 page 21.
smrtgmp 09-25-06, 03:12 PM	I tend to be pretty down on casting self-buffs of any kind in combat with the standard action (quickened buffing is ok, as long as your std action helps the party). Because what it really does is take you out of the fight for a round, instead of contributing.I dont know. I think it depends on the buff. If, by taking one round to buff yourself, you can become dramatically more effective, I think it's worth it. Take, for instance, a cleric who spends a round to apply divine power. Obviously its better if you can add a quickened buff to the mix (say divine favor or, at later levels, a quickened divine power plus righteous might), but a standard action buff is not always a waste of an action.
smrtgmp 09-25-06, 03:12 PM	There is a side note about it in PHB2 page 21. Ahh yes. I knew I saw it in one of the new releases.
Silverclaw 09-25-06, 03:58 PM	you could also try out the "Battle Sorcerer" variation. i think it is from "complete arcane" It might reduce your amount of spells per day and spells known (witch of course is pretty bad for the sorcerer) but it allows you to wear light armor without any ASF (what about a +5 mithril breastplate:w00t: ) and it also gives a d8 as hit dice witch means: a Sorcerer with a good constetution score could get a lot of hitpoints:P i once did so and ended up being the player vith most hitpoints AND the highest ac (even without using spells to buff me up)
dvlsadvct 09-25-06, 04:04 PM	Thanks. Made my day a whole lot easier.
solbergb 09-25-06, 04:38 PM	I dont know. I think it depends on the buff. If, by taking one round to buff yourself, you can become dramatically more effective, I think it's worth it. Take, for instance, a cleric who spends a round to apply divine power. Obviously its better if you can add a quickened buff to the mix (say divine favor or, at later levels, a quickened divine power plus righteous might), but a standard action buff is not always a waste of an action. Yes, but in that round...the party may be getting their behind handed to them. Seriously, the "divine power/righteous might" clerics who do it with standard actions are a joke where I play. The fight is over before they're done buffing. Even the round/level buffs work better if cast before the fight, rather than during (or saved for fights where there is a natural lull in the initial clash, such as where the range is being closed, or the bad guys are fighting their way out of battlefield control and you can't get at them yet). The problem is that it is reasonably rare to become ENOUGH more effective to make up for the one round where you did nothing. Especially if the tempo of the fight goes against the party because you weren't contributing. A defensive buff is worse though...at least divine power lets the guy fight in melee better, and maybe he's out of other spells anyway, or is conserving them for later. A strong offensive self-buff is about as good as withdrawing out of reach so you can do ranged combat with impunity in all the later rounds. A defensive buff means you didn't contribute at all this round, and future contributions aren't likely to be much enhanced either.
Dire Celestial Bonobo 09-25-06, 06:39 PM	I tend to be pretty down on casting self-buffs of any kind in combat with the standard action (quickened buffing is ok, as long as your std action helps the party). Because what it really does is take you out of the fight for a round, instead of contributing. That's what I find, too. How long do people find a battle typically takes, and does that change markedly between lower and higher levels? My rule of thumb is that a typical battle is 4-6 rounds (making the DMG's "typical adventuring day" 3-5 encounters of 4-6 rounds = 20 rounds of combat per day), but I know that can vary a lot based on gaming style. Do people who have fewer encounters per day tend to have longer encounters? If so, that might make self-buffing (or even party-buffing - casting something like Prayer is hardly worth it half the time) more viable in those circumstances. Or is even 4-6 rounds overestimating the length of a typical encounter? I'm curious how this works out for other people.
Venator 09-25-06, 06:54 PM	Not only will these keep your AC respectalbe, but they can also hold useful enchantments such as deathward and fortification. Please excuse me if this happens to be right in the DMG or something, but how would you go about getting Deathward enchanted onto a chest peice? Is it standard, or does it require something like a "permanent, Permanent Deathward" to be cast on the item?
pmurray@bigpond.com 09-25-06, 09:36 PM	The best defense in this case, is a strong offense that doesn't give an enemy a pay-off for making attacks against the arcanist. I'm playing an Initiate of the Seven-Fold Veil. If you do a personal-sized warding and imbue it with yellow, a melee attacker takes 80 points of electricity damage each time they attempt to hit (reflex for half). On a couple of occasions when our part has been up against tough but mindless foes (constructs), my mage has put on her warding and simply allowed herself to be hit, counting on doing enough damage to zap the enemy before she is killed by it.
smrtgmp 09-26-06, 03:20 AM	Please excuse me if this happens to be right in the DMG or something, but how would you go about getting Deathward enchanted onto a chest peice? Is it standard, or does it require something like a "permanent, Permanent Deathward" to be cast on the item?I tend to use the deathward enchantment, which can be found in the CA. ;) Its a +1. The first time you are hit by a death effect or negative energy effect in a given day you gain the protection of death ward for the next 7 minutes.
smrtgmp 09-26-06, 03:25 AM	Seriously, the "divine power/righteous might" clerics who do it with standard actions are a joke where I play. The fight is over before they're done buffing.Who said anything about using multiple standard actions? Certainly not me. And you must have some damn short fights if they're over in one round. Even the round/level buffs work better if cast before the fight, rather than during (or saved for fights where there is a natural lull in the initial clash, such as where the range is being closed, or the bad guys are fighting their way out of battlefield control and you can't get at them yet).Obviously a buff works better if you can get it off before a fight starts. I dont think anyone would argue against that. I certainly didnt. I said there were times when it wasnt a waste of an action, and I stand by that.
Necromas 09-26-06, 04:17 PM	My kobold warmage had pretty good AC. 10+3 (dex) +1 (size) +1 (natural) + 4 (chain shirt) +1 (buckler) = 20 without buffs or magic items. By level 8 he had a +2 buckler, +2 chain shirt, ring of protection +1, and another +1 from gloves of dex +2, for a total of 26 at level 8. And he never spent any precious spell slots or actions casting buffs.
smrtgmp 09-26-06, 04:59 PM	Of course he didnt cast any buffs. He's a warmage. :rolleyes: The only spell he has that could be concidered a buff is truestrike.
solbergb 09-26-06, 07:27 PM	Who said anything about using multiple standard actions? Certainly not me. And you must have some damn short fights if they're over in one round. Obviously a buff works better if you can get it off before a fight starts. I dont think anyone would argue against that. I certainly didnt. I said there were times when it wasnt a waste of an action, and I stand by that. There are times. But how often they come up really depends on your encounter style. Where I play, in the levels where divine power is the kind of thing a cleric might cast, the party either gets on top of the encounter pretty fast (if not over in a couple rounds in fact, it's clear that nothing bad will happen by the end of round 2) or the encounter gets very dangerous and takes a long time to fight (up to a minute gametime) The most common reason for an encounter to go bad is someone not contributing for a couple rounds, and thus letting the bad guys get on top of the encounter (we're reacting to their actions and trying to survive, not removing their capability while maintaining our own). If at the end of round 2, no enemies are out of the fight, the odds are the party is in trouble. If the divine power comes up in a timely manner and the cleric gets a full attack in round 2 that removes an opponent, then it was a decent use of his actions. It's better if you start chipping away at the total power of the enemy as early as round 1, if not with killing them, with temporarily causing them to waste actions (most battlefield control works on this principle) Likewise, if the party is attempting a war of attrition, in the old school "GDQ series, keep of borderlands, temple of elemental evil" style, buffing with short duration buffs and fighting until they run out works pretty well, with things like divine power being cast in the lulls between the wave attacks as the enemy reacts to your intrusion via its alarm systems, etc. But a lot of the time, the divine power becomes useful because the party is the one that after round 2 is down a PC or two, while the enemy has nobody defeated yet....because the cleric didn't cast a party buff, or an enemy debuff, or keep the hitter (that is doing damage NOW, not next round) on his feet. 4-6 round is a decent estimate. But you can usually judge if a fight is "under control" by round 2. What I see is 2-4 round fights with occasional 10 round fights and occasional 1 round fights where everything just goes right for the party (freak crits, save failures, etc)
smrtgmp 09-26-06, 07:46 PM	I agree that it definately comes down to group playing style. I generally play arcane casters, and I favor mass party buffs, enemy debuffs, and combat control. As such, I can usually dictate the pace of the battle, giving my allies a round to position themselves or buff or whatever. Of course, when I played a war weaver, I could buff the whole party several times over (say, fly, greater invis, polymorph, and indomitabity as a move action) AND screw the enemy in the same round. But war weaver is broken as all hell, and can hardly be factored into your average equation. But I guess you never said anything about buffing your allies, just buffing yourself, and I'll admit that most of the time I'll agree with you here. I usually focus my buff spells on my allies to make them better at what they do best. A polymorphed tank is a thing of beauty. In one of my current games, I'm playing a beguiler who is one of the best scouts I've ever seen, so we almost always get the jump on our foes. As such, we usually have a chance to buff a bit before combat is engaged.
solbergb 09-27-06, 12:01 AM	Buffing ALLIES is a great move. Even if it is just a single friend, the buff and the follow-up attack happens NOW, not later. It lets a party that outnumbers the enemy (even if only temporarily) take advantage of its extra actions to get an immediate advantage. Buffing yourself in combat to be more effective later offensively is marginal but ok if the battle has reached a natural 'lull' or engaging will take some time (the party isn't taking heat this moment, now's the time to buff). This is similar to using a whole round just to reposition. Sometimes it's the right thing to do. But it is usually not the first thing you should reach for (and it helps if you can combine it with a reposition move, cramming all the non-value-add activities into a single round) Buffing yourself in combat to just add to your defense is usually bad. After all, nobody is going to bother attacking you until you demonstrated that you're a threat. (already noted is that if all the monsters are beating on you, a self-defense buff is ok, because you ARE contributing, by drawing all the fire, and the buff will help you keep doing that without needing to be rescued)
Dullahan_X 09-27-06, 08:22 PM	Why not just pick up an animated tower shield while you're at it? according to the srd... Upon command, an animated shield floats within 2 feet of the wielder, protecting her as if she were using it herself but freeing up both her hands. Only one shield can protect a character at a time. A character with an animated shield still takes any penalties associated with shield use, such as armor check penalty, arcane spell failure chance, and nonproficiency. I wouldn't reccomend using a that. You'll be eating a 50% ASF right there.