Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Osedox 07-30-06, 12:49 PM	Does anyone have any good ideas for a spell to use with this feat? So far, my best one involves Lesser Orb of Fire, energy substitution (fire), energy admixture (fire), maximize spell, blistering spell and empower spell. I am bad at math but I believe it comes out to about 102-116 fire damage which isnt too great for a 7th level spell, but it is a touch spell and it doesent allow SR or a save. If I add in Chain spell it becomes 9th and can effect 20 extra targets within 30ft, for 51-58 with a Reflex save for half.
Armoracia Rusticana 07-30-06, 01:28 PM	It favors mostly low-cost metamagic, empower being an iconic example. It works hell good with Incantatrix (gonna need those metagagic feats badly, and I prefer sorcerers... though that one is personal). I like scorching ray to start with, personally. Empower (+0 at high level, due to Thesis and Incantatrix's ability), maximize, then twin, blistering, searing, repeat, and split ray. Just kidding. Note that you lack spell level and such a potent nuke can be negated with globe of invulnerability, spell turning, ray deflection, etc, etc, etc. Can be counterspelled (and will be counterspelled, if you insult your DM. There are several ways to counterspell as a free action. Every nuker has dispel magic just in case, that's for sure). Can be a subject of spell immunity if you stick with a single spell all the time. Surely there are more ways to screw a one-trick-caster... By the way, back to the topic, have you checked at CO?
Osedox 07-30-06, 02:06 PM	Yea thats where I got the idea from, I saw some cheese called the Force Missile Mage on the CharOp boards. Anyways you bring up a good point, it is still a first level spell, so perhaps I could drop Empower since it is only giving me an additional 2d8 and heighten it 4 levels, but thats kindof stupid since the spell doesent allow for a save anyways. Plus this kindof an attack would probably be reserved for melee ers and monsters (like trolls), (BTW can a caster counterspell a spell that is targeting someone else?). Would ray deflection work on an Orb spell? it seems to imply that it is for rays but it does say "you are protected against ranged touch attacks," so i guess that would work (i doubt most casters would have this cast before a battle, unless they knew about my tactic, which could happen), I prefer Sorcerers too :) , but have no access to any campaign specific material, so no Incantatrix :( . P.S. where is Searing Spell?
Mystyc 07-30-06, 02:20 PM	P.S. where is Searing Spell? Sandstorm, I believe.
Osedox 07-30-06, 02:21 PM	Sandstorm, I believe.Oh another book i dont have.
smrtgmp 07-30-06, 05:12 PM	FYI-you cant chain an orb, as its not a targeted spell.
Osedox 07-30-06, 05:21 PM	FYI-you cant chain an orb, as its not a targeted spell.Good point, looks like my plans for uber damage are just going to have to wait. Even a Maximized Searing Lesser Orb of Fire does like 50 damage thats not too bad for a 3rd level spell, perhaps ill just stick with that..
PhaedrusXY 07-30-06, 05:40 PM	(BTW can a caster counterspell a spell that is targeting someone else?). I think you can counterspell anything, even a personal range spell, but the rules are slightly contradictory on it. The SRD says this in the beginning of the counterspells section: It is possible to cast any spell as a counterspell.But then at the end it says: If the target is within range, both spells automatically negate each other with no other results. Since the target would never be "in range" of a personal spell, then this would seem to say that you can't counter a personal range spell with the same spell. You should still be able to try and counter it with Dispel Magic, though.
Osedox 07-30-06, 06:13 PM	Quote: Originally Posted by Osedox (BTW can a caster counterspell a spell that is targeting someone else?). I think you can counterspell anything, even a personal range spell, but the rules are slightly contradictory on it. The SRD says this in the beginning of the counterspells section: Quote: It is possible to cast any spell as a counterspell. But then at the end it says: Quote: If the target is within range, both spells automatically negate each other with no other results. Since the target would never be "in range" of a personal spell, then this would seem to say that you can't counter a personal range spell with the same spell. You should still be able to try and counter it with Dispel Magic, though.Cool
sneak_Blast 07-30-06, 07:18 PM	These are my creations: Note: Meteor Swarm does an average of 112 with 4 ranged touch attacks. 1. Arcane Thesis (PHBII) + Twinned (+4) (CArc), Maxed (+3), Empowered (+2) Chain Missile (Spell Compendium) Which is actually Twinned (+3), Maxed (+2), and Empowered (+1) + the original 3rd level spell. Chain Missile does 1 missile (like magic missile), but per every 2 levels (max 10d4+10). It is a third level Sorc/Wiz spell. This means no save, no attacks, can hit incorporeal creatures with no miss chance AND each missile can strike another target with maximum of two missiles per target. When you max it, it does: 50 damage (10*4+10), then you empower it which does 17.5 damage average (0.5*(10*2.5+10)). That adds up to 67.5. Then it is twinned which doubles the damage, which gives you a grand total of 135 damage on average. 2. Arcane Thesis + Twinned Harm. 150 damage with touch attack up front. Twin that and you get 300 damage. Two will saves which each reduce the damage by 75. 300 damage flat with a touch attack. 3. Arcane Thesis + Twinned, Maxed Orb of (blank) (SL: 4) (Spell Compendium) Orb deals 15d6 with a ranged touch. No save, no SR. Maxed = 90 damage and Twinned = 180 damage with two ranged touch attacks. Thats 180 damage flat with two ranged touch attacks. 4. And now, for the 9th level spell that does 315 damage on average, and the feature presentation... Arcane Thesis + Twinned, Empowered Moonbow (SL: 5) (Spell Compendium). Moonbow lets you make 3 ranged touch attacks that deal 1d6/2 CL (max 10d6). 10d6 is an average of 35 damage. Empower that and its 52.5. Then twin it and its 6 of those for one spell. Going like this guy yet? --> :OMG! Well, you should be. Considering that Meteor Swarm only does 112 damage average, and with only 2 feats, you increased the average damage of a 9th level spell by 203 damage, which is almost 200%, then YA, I think you should be going :OMG! So, how do you like these spells?
Osedox 07-30-06, 08:07 PM	Nice, those are some good combos
AvaronGansdell 07-30-06, 08:12 PM	hmm scorching ray, empowered+1, energy admixtured +3, split rayed +1, maximized +2 hmm lets see thats 8d6 per ray for 4 rays max damage then 1/2 damage. lots of range touch attacks though. plus fire damage and minor globe makes them immune. but lets see hit with all 4 that avarages 240 damage to one target no saves but lots of ways to avoid it and with the cleritiy spells and the sorcerer metamagic rules in PHB2 you could toss off two of them in a round 8 touch attacks each one doing about 45 damage 1/2 fire the other half somethign else.
smrtgmp 07-30-06, 08:35 PM	I dont have my books with me at the moment. Can you use arcane thesis on a divine spell (harm)?
AvaronGansdell 07-30-06, 08:41 PM	nope...choose one arcane spell.
smrtgmp 07-30-06, 08:44 PM	Thats what I thought.
Roxlimn 07-30-06, 09:12 PM	You can use Arcane Thesis on Harm, if you can cast Harm as an arcane spell.
sneak_Blast 07-30-06, 09:19 PM	Damn. Anyway. I'm updating Moonbow combo. Arcane Thesis + Energy Admixture (fire) [+4 SL], Fiery (Sandstorm) [+1 SL], Searing (Sandstorm) [+1 SL], Empowered [+2 SL] Moonbow. Which, in SL terms, becomes 5 + 3 + 0 + 0 + 1 = 9th level spell Energy Admixture adds 1d6 for every 1d6 the spell already has, damage wise, but with a single energy type, fire, in this case. It also gives it the energy subtype. That allows the application of the metamagic feats Fiery and Searing. Fiery adds +1 damage to the spell for every 1d6 of damage it deals, but it can only be applied to spells with the fiery description, which Moonbow now has. Searing negates all fire resistance a subject has when calculating damage for this spell, and makes fire immune creatures take 1/2 of the fire damage. So, lets do the math: (10d6 (electric) + 10d6 (fire) + 20) * 1.5 (10*3.5 + 10*3.5 +20) * 1.5 (35+35+20) * 1.5 90 * 1.5 135 damage... per ranged touch attack, which you get 3 of, so multiply that by 3. 135 * 3 = 405. But the fun does not stop there. Lets say you add in a Rod of Maximize, Greater into the equation. That gives you: ((10d6 + 10d6 + 20) * 1.5) * 3 ((60 + 60 + 20) * 1.5) *3 (140 * 1.5 * 3) 210 * 3 = 630 damage flat with 3 ranged touch attacks. That is twice what I had in the previous equation. Thank you guys for noting the possibility of Energy Admixture. That made this all possible.
Osedox 07-30-06, 09:48 PM	you have to have energy substitution (fire) to get energy admixture (fire)
AvaronGansdell 07-30-06, 10:02 PM	ya feats are really the bane of the DPS caster.
Puca 07-30-06, 10:43 PM	The first spell I thought of when looking for one make an Arcane Thesis was False Life: 1) Its a spell Im as likely to use at level 20 as level 4. Theres is just never going to be a day where it isnt one of my best options. 2) Its a spell that works well with a lot of the metamagics Id take: Empower and Maximize, at low levels Extend, and high levels Quicken.
sneak_Blast 07-30-06, 10:52 PM	you have to have energy substitution (fire) to get energy admixture (fire) The combo still works, and I know. ya feats are really the bane of the DPS caster. Whats a DPS caster?
AvaronGansdell 07-30-06, 11:04 PM	ohh sorry too many MMO forums lately DPS is Damage per second in D&D it would be a blaster mage how much damage can I do in a short amout of time. ok lets see useing the sorcerer varient from PHB2 and the celerity spell from the same book a 18th level sorcerer can avarage 576 damage in one round casting a twined, empowered, seering, admixtured scorching ray. thats 12 range touch attacks each for 8d6+8 damage x 1.5 sadly there are so many ways to stop it dead that its almost not worth considering.
sneak_Blast 07-30-06, 11:31 PM	I believe that if you twin Scorching Ray, you will only get 8 attacks.
AvaronGansdell 07-30-06, 11:56 PM	twin causes you to cast the spell twice at the same time with the same targets. scorching ray maxes out at 11th level with 3 rays each doing 4d6. so 3 rays doubles to 6 rays and then you use celerity to do that twice for a total of 12 rays each doing 4d6 damage. though your stunned the next round
sneak_Blast 07-31-06, 12:44 AM	Never mind, but if you use Celerity, you use two spell slots. Not the intention of this thread. We are just trying to amp up spells using Arcane Thesis to get really good damage output.
AvaronGansdell 07-31-06, 01:01 AM	I amped the spell up as high as I could find, twined, seering, empowered, elementaly admixtured...runs into the 9th level spell slot. then to get more damage out of it you cast it twice in one round.
Osedox 07-31-06, 01:07 AM	Never mind, but if you use Celerity, you use two spell slots. Not the intention of this thread. We are just trying to amp up spells using Arcane Thesis to get really good damage output.Its ok, since when does a thread ever actualy stay on topic past the first 10 posts or so. I am still interested in good spells though if anyone has one that they like.
Rundor The Mighty 07-31-06, 01:22 AM	One word: Enervation With incantatrix (-1 meta) and arcane thesis + how cheap split ray is, coupled witn twin spell you could blast out something like this: enervation = 1d4 negative levels, split ray (+1) 2d4 negative levels, twinned (+2) 4d4 negative levels, maximized (+1) = 16 negative levels from one 8th level spell slot. If you can't go incantatrix then a split ray, twinned, empowered would be 9th level and average out to 15 negative levels. There are some tanks or creatures out there that can take a ridiculous amount of damage, but not much living creatures can recover from 15 negative levels.
Osedox 07-31-06, 01:32 AM	Woa, thats broken if I ever saw broken. I love Enervation though, it truly is a good choice for Arcane Thesis.
AvaronGansdell 07-31-06, 01:38 AM	a good one to go with all this is guided shot from spell compendium. swift action to cast and for 1 round you can ignore cover and concealment as long as its not total cover or concealment. lets you ignore that anoying +4 they get to there touch ac for haveing cover.
Osedox 07-31-06, 09:15 PM	The first spell I thought of when looking for one make an Arcane Thesis was False Life: 1) Its a spell Im as likely to use at level 20 as level 4. Theres is just never going to be a day where it isnt one of my best options. 2) Its a spell that works well with a lot of the metamagics Id take: Empower and Maximize, at low levels Extend, and high levels Quicken.Too bad the Boni from the spell arent higher :( . Quickened, Maximized, and Empowered only nets you 26-30 bonus Hp as a swift action for a 9th level spell. It would probably be better to just stick with maximized and empowered for a 5th level slot that you can cast after every combat (it lasts 1 hour/level so why not?). Another possibility I thought of was Cloud of Knives. Extend and Maximize are probably your best bets. At 20th CL thats 44 knives (one per round as a free action) that each do 11 damage (10 if they are silver). I would say that that is a pretty good use of a 4th level spell slot (make it 5th by adding empower; which nets you an average of 5 extra damage/level, but slows down everything because you have to roll every round :rolleyes: )
Enaloindir 08-01-06, 07:18 AM	Arcane Thesis + Energy Admixture (fire) [+4 SL], Fiery (Sandstorm) [+1 SL], Searing (Sandstorm) [+1 SL], Empowered [+2 SL] Moonbow. Which, in SL terms, becomes 5 + 3 + 0 + 0 + 1 = 9th level spell [...] 135 damage... per ranged touch attack, which you get 3 of, so multiply that by 3. 135 * 3 = 405. But the fun does not stop there. Lets say you add in a Rod of Maximize, Greater into the equation. That gives you [...] 630 damage flat with 3 ranged touch attacks. That is twice what I had in the previous equation. Actually, you can still improve on that build: BOWY, Kobold Sorcerer 10/Incantatrix 10 (or Spellscale or Dragonborn) Feats: Arcane Thesis (Moonbow), Empower Spell, Energy Admixture (fire), Energy Substitution (fire), Fiery Spell, Iron Will, Maximize Spell, Practical Metamagic (Energy Admixture), Practical Metamagic (Twin Spell), Searing Spell, Twin Spell With the interaction of the Incantatrix ability, Practical Metamagic, and Arcane Thesis, he casts an empowered, energy admixtured (fire), energy substituted (fire), fiery, maximized, searing, twinned moonbow. The spell's adjusted level is 8 (5+0+1+0+0+1+0+1). Now, the damage calcuation: base spell (lvl 5): 3x 10d6 electricty energy substitution (lvl 5): 3x 10d6 fire energy admixture (lvl 6): 3x 20d6 fire fiery spell (lvl 6): 3x 20d6+20 fire maximize spell (lvl 7): 3x 140 fire empower spell (lvl 7): 3x 10d6+150 fire twin spell (lvl 8): 6x 10d6+150 fire Thus, the average damage is about 185 points of fire damage per ranged touch attack, or 1110 points of fire damage if all attacks hit. This damage will penetrate any fire resistance, and deals half damage to fire immune creatures. This is without any metamagic rods. If he has a Maximize Metamagic Rod available, he can switch Maximize Spell for Quicken Spell (being smart, he already took the Metamagic Specialist class feature (from PHB2). This allows Bowy to quicken one moonbow, while casting one regular version. So, using a 7th and a 9th level slot, he deals 2220 points of fire damage, assuming all ranged touch attacks hit. I'm sure the experts over on the CO boards could crank out even more damage ;) Enaloindir
sneak_Blast 08-01-06, 10:49 PM	Add blistering. +2 damage per SL. +1 SL.
AvaronGansdell 08-01-06, 11:31 PM	there is also one meta magic out there thats a 1 level upgrade that adds 1 point per die of damage the spell dose.
sneak_Blast 08-02-06, 12:09 AM	thats called "Fiery", and its from Sandstorm.
Osedox 08-02-06, 10:33 PM	Bump
sneak_Blast 08-02-06, 10:45 PM	Where is the Intracix prestige class??? Also blistering. +1 SL, +2 damage per SL. PHBII.
Seerow 08-02-06, 10:48 PM	Incantatrix is in Magic of Faerun.
sneak_Blast 08-02-06, 10:56 PM	A-some. Thnxs.
sneak_Blast 08-02-06, 11:00 PM	Sry for posting twice, but the intratix thing doesnt work because the improved metamagic can't reduce a metamagic feat to an increase from less than one.
Enaloindir 08-03-06, 07:50 AM	Add blistering. +2 damage per SL. +1 SL. The build I gave is so cramped for feats that I can't work Blistering Spell into it. However, if you substitute Blistering Spell for Maximize Spell, and use a Maximize Metamagic Rod. This would bring the damage with a single casting to 1170 fire damage with a lvl 7 spell slot and 54,000 gp. If you're a bit short on cash, trade Empower Spell instead of Maximize. This will let you do the same amount of damage with a lvl 8 spell slot, but it will cost you only 32,500 gp in equipment. If you also trade Empower Spell and Maximize Spell for Blistering Spell and Quicken Spell (and take the metamagic specialist option) and buy an Empower Metamagic Rod and a Maximize Metamagic Rod, you can pump out 2340 fire damage in a single round, using a lvl 7 and a lvl 9 spell slot and using 86,000 gp worth of gear. When you really have cash to waste, buy a Maximize Metamagic Rod and a Quicken Metamagic Rod instead, and trade your Maximize Spell feat for Blistering Spell. For only 129,500 gp and two lvl 7 spell slots, you will be able to deal 2340 fire damage in a single round three times per day, assuming all 6 ranged touch attacks hit. Sry for posting twice, but the intratix thing doesnt work because the improved metamagic can't reduce a metamagic feat to an increase from less than one. You're right that the incantatrix ability can't reduce the metamagic cost below a +1 modifier (neither can the Practical Metamagic feat). However, you use this feat/ability to reduce the metamagic level increase to +1, then arcane thesis reduces this to 0, because it doesn't include such a limitation... Enaloindir
Enaloindir 08-03-06, 02:03 PM	Incantatrix is in Magic of Faerun. Actually, the Incantatrix has been updated in the Player's Guide to Faerūn (page 61). Enaloindir
Puca 08-03-06, 02:43 PM	Too bad the Boni from the spell arent higher :( . Quickened, Maximized, and Empowered only nets you 26-30 bonus Hp as a swift action for a 9th level spell. It would probably be better to just stick with maximized and empowered for a 5th level slot that you can cast after every combat (it lasts 1 hour/level so why not?). Math - not my strong point, but: 1d10+10 will average 15.5 points. The avearge when empowered will be 23.25 (low 16.5, high 30.) The average maximized and empowered will be 38.75. Right? But, my standards when thinking about investing a feat in one spell like this were: Will I use it enough? False life, every day. Will it really benefit from metamagic? Again, it does. I routinely empower it already. Quicken might not be ideal, but a burst of hit-points in the middle of an encounter when your cleric is on the other side of the room is not a bad thing. (As a contingency item is probably better than quickened though.)
Osedox 08-04-06, 12:24 AM	Math - not my strong point, but: 1d10+10 will average 15.5 points. The avearge when empowered will be 23.25 (low 16.5, high 30.) The average maximized and empowered will be 38.75. Right?Hummm, no. avg=15.5 avg empowered=23.25 avg maxed then empowered=27.75 (20 maxed)+.5Xavg(7.75) I dont know where we went different, but its a small matter. I definatly think it is worth a 5th level slot! After all it doesent really need to be quickened with a duration like that.
Puca 08-04-06, 07:55 AM	Hummm, no. avg=15.5 avg empowered=23.25 avg maxed then empowered=27.75 (20 maxed)+.5Xavg(7.75) I dont know where we went different, but its a small matter. I definatly think it is worth a 5th level slot! After all it doesent really need to be quickened with a duration like that.Yeah, I cant recall how I got 38. But, it wasnt the right way. Math is the Xykon to my Greenhilt.
Osedox 08-04-06, 03:28 PM	Ha, great metaphore, ill have to remember that one.
sneak_Blast 08-04-06, 09:57 PM	Lol. Ditto on what Osedox said.
concerro 08-04-06, 10:45 PM	If your campaign is going to be high level you should wait for chain lightening. Get Arcane Thesis, chain spell quicken spell. There is a feat in phb2 that lets you use action points(assuming you are playing ebberon) in place of spell slots when using metamagic feats. Here is why: Chain lightening makes the spell affect another creature with the same spell as long as the distance is greater than touch. So you cast it then the lightening arcs to the other enemies for half damage per the spell description. The you choose the other opponents and the spell hits them as though just as if it had been the original casting. By the time you finish chaining the spell the fight should be over and if you quicken it you can do it again or cast another spell to finish the fight