Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sian_Son_of_Cune 05-14-06, 05:08 PM	I was thinking of a Arcane version of the Cleric spell anyspell and greater anyspell. Tell me what you guys think and if you think it is balanced. Of course it would be used probrably exclusively by Sorc, and Bards but I still think it would be a cool spell. I decided to attempt to address some of the concerns with these spells that it would be to powerfull in the hands of a sorcerer. Please read the revised versions and let me know what you think. Greater Read Magic Divination Level: Bard 3, Sorcerer/Wizard 3 Components V,S,F(and possibly M,F,and XP) Casting Time: 15 minutes Range: Personal Target: You Duration: Instantaneous Greater Read Magic allows you to read and prepare any arcane spell of up to 2nd level. You must have an arcane magical writing (spellbook) on hand to cast Greater Read Magic. During the spell's 15-minute casting time, you can scan the spells available and choose one to read and prepare. Once you choose and prepare an arcane spell, you retain it in your mind. The prepared spell occupies the 3rd-level spell slot used to cast Greater Read Magic, however it still counts as a spell of its appropriate level once cast. You must have an int of 10+spell level of the spell to be prepared and all DC's of that spell are determined by your int. Any metamagic feats must be applied during preparation and the spell's level cannot exceed 2nd lvl even after metamagic feats are applied. You must provide all material components at time of casting. Greater Read Magic may be cast 1 once per day + your int modifier. Decipher Magic Divination Level: Bard 6, Sorcerer/Wizard 6 Components V,S,F(and possibly M,F,and XP) Casting Time: 15 minutes Range: Personal Target: You Duration: Instantaneous This spell functions like Greater Read Magic, except you can read and prepare any arcane spell of up to 5th level, and the pepared spell occupies a 6th-level spell slot.
runestar 05-14-06, 10:30 PM	It's called limited wish. ;)
AvaronGansdell 05-15-06, 01:42 AM	there not bad..but leave out the arcane part if a cleric can prepare any wizards spells the wizard should be able to prepare cleric spells too. then again my favorit is cleric/wizard/MT with the spell domain and the spontainus domain spell access spell so I can spontainusly replace my cleric spells with wizard spells as needed.
smrtgmp 05-15-06, 01:52 AM	...You must have an arcane magical writing (spellbook) on hand to cast Greater Read Magic. During the spell's 15-minute casting time, you can scan the spells available and choose one to read and prepare...Uhhh...if you have the magical writing there in front of you, why not just take 15 minutes to prepare it normally rather than wasting a higher level spell? Thats why you leave a few low level slots unprepared so that you can fill them as needed with 15 minutes of study. I guess I could see a sorcerer taking this, but they would need arcane preperation to take advantage of it. I cant imagine a wizard ever using this. Now, if you reduced the casting time so that it could be used on the fly, it would be a different story.
zae 05-15-06, 02:21 AM	I don't think it should be preparation-only. It sounds like a very useful spell, so sorcerers should be able to use it without relying on Arcane Preparation.
runestar 05-15-06, 02:56 AM	Somehow, sorc preparing spells from a spellbook seems so wrong... :( That's why they made rary's memonic enhancer a wiz only spell. What's next? wizs praying to gods for their spells? :eek:
ManTimeForgot 05-15-06, 07:01 AM	Why am I burning a higher level slot to do the exact same thing I could do by leaving a slot of 2nd level or 5th level (respectively) open at the beginning of the day? If you made them standard actions to cast, then I would suggest they are overpowered. The first one is atleast 4th level if not 5th level to get all second level spells or lower without penalty (look at the shadow spells for guidance here). And the latter spell has an obvious corollary in limited wish, so much so as to be "stepping on the toes of limited wish" so to speak. I'd also consider that limited wish has an exp penalty and the spells you are suggesting do not. The higher level one if you made it a standard action would probably need some other kind of penalty, in which case it should just be limited wish. MTF
Sian_Son_of_Cune 05-15-06, 08:42 AM	Why am I burning a higher level slot to do the exact same thing I could do by leaving a slot of 2nd level or 5th level (respectively) open at the beginning of the day? Generally speaking you would not. Thats why a wizard would not normally use this spell except maybe in some extreme cases like he is trying to prepare spells out of a foreign spellbook. Like I said this spell would mainly be used by Sorc's and Bards to give them some limited spell diversity if they have a spellbook. The Arcane preparation feat is not required because of the spell takes care of that for them. Think along the lines of the cleric's Divine might or mage's Tenser's Transformation spells that allow the caster to act like a fighter for some time. This allows a Sorc or Bard to act like a wizard in some limited fashion. I even thought of making it Sorc only like Rary's is wiz only, but opted not to since it can have some limited use for a wizard. I did not give them access to cleric spells because that is the realm of the gods and mortal magics should not access them.
Chrono Nexus 05-15-06, 09:03 AM	Arcane magic is not "mortals" magic, it is a mysterious language that existed long before the gods themselves. Sorc's, bards and wiz's aren't creating the magic- they are rediscovering it. As for mortals intruding on a god's domain- clerics do it all of the time. I am not sure, but I think that clerics for the most part are considered to be mortals.
Sian_Son_of_Cune 05-15-06, 09:26 AM	Arcane magic is not "mortals" magic, it is a mysterious language that existed long before the gods themselves. Sorc's, bards and wiz's aren't creating the magic- they are rediscovering it. As for mortals intruding on a god's domain- clerics do it all of the time. I am not sure, but I think that clerics for the most part are considered to be mortals. Yes I understand that arcane magic is infact the same forces that the gods themselves use(at least in my theories). I call it mortal magic because the level at which most mages(even the very high level ones) use it is far below its true potential. And the fact is, if they accessed these forces to its full extent they themselves would be gods. Arcane Theories aside, do you think the spell to be mechanically balanced for a DnD campaign?
Ynvaar 05-15-06, 12:19 PM	I was going to post a reply to this thread last night since I really like Anyspell myself. The trouble is, the more I thought about it the more I could forsee a few problems. As it's written it is obviously useless for anyone except sorcerers, that isn't a big problem in itself but the biggest drawback sorcers have is their narrow selection of spells. If sorcerers had access to this spell they would instantly eliminate this major balancing factor. Remember that Anyspell is limited to clerics that have access to the 'spell' domain (so almost nobody) and even then it takes up the clerics' domain slot(s) so they can't go wild with it. A sorcerer who has a comparitively vast number of spells per day could really abuse this one big time. At lower levels this (as Runestar suggested) is comparable to Limited wish. It's not quite that good but it isn't far off. I would suggest keeping it as is but applying an XP cost (this always hurts) to stop it from being abused, say 100xp x level of the spell to be memorised.
tarkin 05-15-06, 01:11 PM	The spells you gave were appropriate for a Power Game. Just because clerics of the Spell domain can do it for one level less does NOT mean that it is always worth one level less. If you absolutely refuse to use Limited Wish which does it reasonably, then you should still recognize that wizards should be doing this at 2 levels less, not 1 level less.
Sian_Son_of_Cune 05-15-06, 01:17 PM	I was going to post a reply to this thread last night since I really like Anyspell myself. The trouble is, the more I thought about it the more I could forsee a few problems. As it's written it is obviously useless for anyone except sorcerers, that isn't a big problem in itself but the biggest drawback sorcers have is their narrow selection of spells. If sorcerers had access to this spell they would instantly eliminate this major balancing factor. Remember that Anyspell is limited to clerics that have access to the 'spell' domain (so almost nobody) and even then it takes up the clerics' domain slot(s) so they can't go wild with it. A sorcerer who has a comparitively vast number of spells per day could really abuse this one big time. At lower levels this (as Runestar suggested) is comparable to Limited wish. It's not quite that good but it isn't far off. I would suggest keeping it as is but applying an XP cost (this always hurts) to stop it from being abused, say 100xp x level of the spell to be memorised. Thank you for the comment, and I see your concern, but here are a couple of other things to consider. Under your current xp drain suggestion it is only 50xp less(if casting a 2nd level spell) than limited wish(250 xp) and if as much as 600 xp if you are using Dicipher Magic. I personally think that is way to harsh considering that Limited wish is 1 standard action, which means it can be used in combat to cast any spell 6th(whether you know the spell or not) lvl or lower for only 250xp(HUGE). Because of this spells casting time it must be cast in advance and you must have a spellbook with that spell in it. Now let us compare it to say shadow conjuration or evocation. Similar spells that effectively expands a Sorc's spell select. Drawbacks being: 1) at least one lvl higher than the spell you want to cast 2) potential targets get will saves to reduce the effect of the spells to 20% effectiveness. But again you can use these spells in combat or at a moments notice and you do not need to know or have even seen the spell before(BIG). Now let us follow the line of thought that Sorcerers could abuse GRM or DM because they can cast it multiple times a day. Clerics can do the same thing if they have the spontaneous domain feat, not mention the fact they are casting spells that are not normally on their spell list. So lets look at what that means game wise for a sorcerer: He can use 3rd lvl or higher slot to prepare a 2nd lvl or lower spell ahead of time. Thus giving up a potentially more power spell to cast more situation lower level spell. Is that really unbalanced? I dont know. Now lets tak another look at the idea of burning xp mentioned earlier. That is an interesting idea but I would think a more balanced xp loss would be as if they had made a scroll of that lvl (since they could potentially just buy a scroll of that spell) thus: 1st lvl = 1xp 2nd lvl = 5xp 3rd lvl = 15xp (they would have to be using Decipher Magic for this) This however really changes the nature of the spell in my opinion but is a consideration. Another approach I was considering(which I kinda like this idea) is to have them cast the spells they gain with GRM or DM using their Int instead of their Cha. They would also need a minimum int of 10+spell level to be able to prepare the spell with GRM or DM. Like I said I kinda of like that idea over the xp loss, but I am not sure if I am just nerfing the sorcerer yet again since the cleric version has not such limitations infact it does the opposite by switch the spell to their primary stat. Please let me know what you guys think, I do appreciate the feedback.
Sian_Son_of_Cune 05-15-06, 01:46 PM	The spells you gave were appropriate for a Power Game. Just because clerics of the Spell domain can do it for one level less does NOT mean that it is always worth one level less. If you absolutely refuse to use Limited Wish which does it reasonably, then you should still recognize that wizards should be doing this at 2 levels less, not 1 level less. Hmm.. interesting, why should wizards/sorcerers be doing it for 2 lvls less? Especially for spells on their spell list. I did read your save scroll spell however, and it is interesting. I made a few suggestions to it. One thing to consider with your version though(which effectively does the same thing as mine) is that the caster can do it without having to prepare ahead of time. I think that adds alot of power to the spell, thus justifing it casting spells 2 lvls lower in my mind. But I do like the concept.
AvaronGansdell 05-15-06, 03:09 PM	you do know it takes alot more than 15 minutes for a wizard to fill those slots they left opened in the morning. from the SRD. When preparing spells for the day, a wizard can leave some of these spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes, time and circumstances permitting. During these extra sessions of preparation, the wizard can fill these unused spell slots. She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because she has cast a spell in the meantime. That sort of preparation requires a mind fresh from rest. Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if the wizard prepares more than one-quarter of her spells. now under the resting section Rest: To prepare her daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but she must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If her rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time she has to rest in order to clear her mind, and she must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing her spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells. now even reading that in a generous manner I would rule that it takes atleast 1 hour and 15 minutes to prepare even a single spell you left opened in the morning. If I am wrong and somene has errataed this please point me to the proper errata.
fastjack 05-15-06, 03:27 PM	The arcane version of Anyspell are the Shadow Conjuration/Evocation An Arcane Anyspell like would be overpower if you notice the shadow ones. Maybe something that could be done.. is "Spell Packs" For Example: --- FBI's Etrapment (random name), wiz 5 Allows yout o cast one of this spells: Dimensional Anchor Otiluke's Resilient Sphere Wall of Ice Material components must be applied for the chosend spell. -- Altho DM should forbid the creation of packs with everyday spells like Replaceing Wall of ice for stoneskin.
webhed999 05-15-06, 05:14 PM	If sorcerers had access to this spell they would instantly eliminate this major balancing factor ... A sorcerer who has a comparitively vast number of spells per day could really abuse this one big time. Roe - this is my impression too, that this spell would effectively remove the one balancing factor for Sorcerers. They get tons of spells per day counter-balanced by the fact that they do not have a wide selection of spells. Thats just the way it is with Sorcerers. The messages above generally agree with my basic sentiments, that this is not a good idea as written. I'm open to tweaks or changes though so keep going.
zae 05-15-06, 05:54 PM	The one balancing factor for sorcerers? Wizards tend to know every spell (given time), and have no difficulty whatsoever in getting more than enough spell slots. Feats, magic items, a high Int - all of these can easily grant them extra spells per day. A sorcerer, on the other hand, has no method of knowing extra spells, unless using Knowstones from Dragon magazine (I don't know how it works exactly, I don't have the issue. It sounds like it should be made core though). Now, sorcerers can cast spontaneously? Wizards need only leave enough slots free for the things that allow you to sit down and meditate long enough to use an unusual spell, using most of their many slots for all of the powerful spells. Beyond that, they have other advantages - accelerated metamagic, free feats, easier access to the stronger PrCls etc. I don't see much of a balancing factor here, to tell the truth. People in my groups quickly stopped playing sorcerers when they saw that wizards made them redundant. DM and GRM, now that I understand them as being useable by sorcerers, work just fine seeing as you can hardly use them in combat. They essentially allow them to sit down and meditate for a while to cast an unusual spell that happens to be needed. Preparing ahead of time for a fight against a BBEG that they know the weaknesses of? Well done, they're sacrificing their spontenaiety by making themselves able to adapt and plan ahead like a wizard. Making sacrifices to do what wizards do all the time doesn't sound that unbalancing to me. As long as it's kept from being a combat-ready spell, it should be fine. Also assuming they still pay any XP costs or costly material components of the original spell, of course.
ManTimeForgot 05-15-06, 06:58 PM	Thank you for the comment, and I see your concern, but here are a couple of other things to consider. Under your current xp drain suggestion it is only 50xp less(if casting a 2nd level spell) than limited wish(250 xp) and if as much as 600 xp if you are using Dicipher Magic. I personally think that is way to harsh considering that Limited wish is 1 standard action, which means it can be used in combat to cast any spell 6th(whether you know the spell or not) lvl or lower for only 250xp(HUGE). Because of this spells casting time it must be cast in advance and you must have a spellbook with that spell in it. Now let us compare it to say shadow conjuration or evocation. Similar spells that effectively expands a Sorc's spell select. Drawbacks being: 1) at least one lvl higher than the spell you want to cast 2) potential targets get will saves to reduce the effect of the spells to 20% effectiveness. But again you can use these spells in combat or at a moments notice and you do not need to know or have even seen the spell before(BIG). Now let us follow the line of thought that Sorcerers could abuse GRM or DM because they can cast it multiple times a day. Clerics can do the same thing if they have the spontaneous domain feat, not mention the fact they are casting spells that are not normally on their spell list. So lets look at what that means game wise for a sorcerer: He can use 3rd lvl or higher slot to prepare a 2nd lvl or lower spell ahead of time. Thus giving up a potentially more power spell to cast more situation lower level spell. Is that really unbalanced? I dont know. Now lets tak another look at the idea of burning xp mentioned earlier. That is an interesting idea but I would think a more balanced xp loss would be as if they had made a scroll of that lvl (since they could potentially just buy a scroll of that spell) thus: 1st lvl = 1xp 2nd lvl = 5xp 3rd lvl = 15xp (they would have to be using Decipher Magic for this) This however really changes the nature of the spell in my opinion but is a consideration. Another approach I was considering(which I kinda like this idea) is to have them cast the spells they gain with GRM or DM using their Int instead of their Cha. They would also need a minimum int of 10+spell level to be able to prepare the spell with GRM or DM. Like I said I kinda of like that idea over the xp loss, but I am not sure if I am just nerfing the sorcerer yet again since the cleric version has not such limitations infact it does the opposite by switch the spell to their primary stat. Please let me know what you guys think, I do appreciate the feedback. You forgot to mention that the shadow spells only work on ONE spell school, and the spells you are suggesting work on ANY school. That is huge! MTF
Sian_Son_of_Cune 05-15-06, 08:22 PM	The one balancing factor for sorcerers? Wizards tend to know every spell (given time), and have no difficulty whatsoever in getting more than enough spell slots. Feats, magic items, a high Int - all of these can easily grant them extra spells per day. A sorcerer, on the other hand, has no method of knowing extra spells, unless using Knowstones from Dragon magazine (I don't know how it works exactly, I don't have the issue. It sounds like it should be made core though). Now, sorcerers can cast spontaneously? Wizards need only leave enough slots free for the things that allow you to sit down and meditate long enough to use an unusual spell, using most of their many slots for all of the powerful spells. Beyond that, they have other advantages - accelerated metamagic, free feats, easier access to the stronger PrCls etc. I don't see much of a balancing factor here, to tell the truth. People in my groups quickly stopped playing sorcerers when they saw that wizards made them redundant. DM and GRM, now that I understand them as being useable by sorcerers, work just fine seeing as you can hardly use them in combat. They essentially allow them to sit down and meditate for a while to cast an unusual spell that happens to be needed. Preparing ahead of time for a fight against a BBEG that they know the weaknesses of? Well done, they're sacrificing their spontenaiety by making themselves able to adapt and plan ahead like a wizard. Making sacrifices to do what wizards do all the time doesn't sound that unbalancing to me. As long as it's kept from being a combat-ready spell, it should be fine. Also assuming they still pay any XP costs or costly material components of the original spell, of course. Wow, Thank you. I was beginning to think that was the only one who saw this. I was almost about to give up since it seemed like everyone was so OH NO WAY MAN! YOU CANT HAVE A SORCERER DO THAT! THAT WOULD BE CRAZY BROKEN! One arguement against it was that sorcerers get way to many spells to allow them to have this spell. Sorcerers get 2 more 3rd and 4th lvl spell slots(the spell slots that play a factor for GRM) than a wizard and only 1 more if the wizard is specialized. They are also tied with a cleric for those same spell slots. So the number of spells per day they get is not an issue if you really look at the progression tables. Especially if the cleric has the domain spontaneity feat, then they are not limited to one casting of Anyspell a day. So lets look at the real issues here. As I understand them people are afraid that in the hands of a sorc these spells would be to powerful because: a) They eliminate one of the major "balancing" issues of a the class b) They would be able to cast it to many times a day. Well... a) That is the nature of magic. To address the weakness of it's casters. One of the major "balancing" methods of wizards is their low HP, but that never stopped spells like false life, and arcane healing from being developed. b) Lets look at that. In theory yes.. a sorcerer could burn all his 3rd, 4th, and even 5th lvl spells (18+ in total at 20th lvl and time permitting) and replace them all with 2nd lvl and lower spells. Am I missing something? I dont see much of a problem with that. The thing I dont understand is that a cleric can already do a very similiar thing with one feat and cast arcane and divine spells, but no one sees a problem with that? Sorcerers are really not powerful when compared to other spell casters. Unfortunately I just happen to like to play them. Perhaps we all should just join the rest of the world like Zae's group, play a wizard, and just let sorcerers die.
Sian_Son_of_Cune 05-15-06, 09:12 PM	I decided to attempt to address some of the concerns with these spells that it would be to powerfull in the hands of a sorcerer. Please read the revised versions and let me know what you think. Greater Read Magic Divination Level: Bard 3, Sorcerer/Wizard 3 Components V,S,F(and possibly M,F,and XP) Casting Time: 15 minutes Range: Personal Target: You Duration: Instantaneous Greater Read Magic allows you to read and prepare any arcane spell of up to 2nd level. You must have an arcane magical writing (spellbook) on hand to cast Greater Read Magic. During the spell's 15-minute casting time, you can scan the spells available and choose one to read and prepare. Once you choose and prepare an arcane spell, you retain it in your mind. The prepared spell occupies the 3rd-level spell slot used to cast Greater Read Magic, however it still counts as a spell of its appropriate level once cast. You must have an int of 10+spell level of the spell to be prepared and all DC's of that spell are determined by your int. Any metamagic feats must be applied during preparation and the spell's level cannot exceed 2nd lvl even after metamagic feats are applied. You must provide all material components at time of casting. Greater Read Magic may be cast 1 once per day + your int modifier. Decipher Magic Divination Level: Bard 6, Sorcerer/Wizard 6 Components V,S,F(and possibly M,F,and XP) Casting Time: 15 minutes Range: Personal Target: You Duration: Instantaneous This spell functions like Greater Read Magic, except you can read and prepare any arcane spell of up to 5th level, and the pepared spell occupies a 6th-level spell slot.
Ynvaar 05-15-06, 09:23 PM	Now lets tak another look at the idea of burning xp mentioned earlier. That is an interesting idea but I would think a more balanced xp loss would be as if they had made a scroll of that lvl (since they could potentially just buy a scroll of that spell) thus: 1st lvl = 1xp 2nd lvl = 5xp 3rd lvl = 15xp (they would have to be using Decipher Magic for this)(emphasis mine) Yeah but that just compounds the problem. The ammendment you suggest makes it akin to another of the wizard class abilities, namely Scribe scroll. I really think you are trying to do too much, too cheap here. The palty XP costs noted above would never be a good (bad?) enough drawback to stop a sorcerer using this spell a lot. 5xp is nothing to a 5th level character. At the very least I would set the XP at no less than 50xp per spell level. This would scale the price more favourably with Limited Wish (min 300xp to emulate a 6th level spell) -though that IS a seventh level spell. IMHO the defining characteristics of the sorcerer class are 'lots of spells' but 'little variety'. This spell ignores that completely and turns the sorc into a wizard with extra spell slots. The cost Should be high.
Sian_Son_of_Cune 05-15-06, 09:40 PM	(emphasis mine) Yeah but that just compounds the problem. The ammendment you suggest makes it akin to another of the wizard class abilities, namely Scribe scroll. I really think you are trying to do too much, too cheap here. The palty XP costs noted above would never be a good (bad?) enough drawback to stop a sorcerer using this spell a lot. 5xp is nothing to a 5th level character. At the very least I would set the XP at no less than 50xp per spell level. This would scale the price more favourably with Limited Wish (min 300xp to emulate a 6th level spell) -though that IS a seventh level spell. IMHO the defining characteristics of the sorcerer class are 'lots of spells' but 'little variety'. This spell ignores that completely and turns the sorc into a wizard with extra spell slots. The cost Should be high. people keep saying sorcerers get alot of spells. Please take another look at the progression charts. at 20th lvl a cleric gets 4 less spells per day than a sorc. A wiz as little as 9 less(1 per lvl). So really the gap is not that big. The sorcerer's only real advantage over any other spell caster is that he can sponteously cast, not his spells per day.
Ynvaar 05-15-06, 10:42 PM	Umm... not sure what progression chart you are looking at but it's obviously not the same as the one in my PHB... (are you confusing spells known with spells per day?) At 20th level the Sorcerer Only (if that is indeed the correct word) gets 20 more spells per day than a Wizard. That is a big difference (I haven't done the math but it looks to be around 50% more at a rough guesstimate). At low levels the difference is comparatively bigger again since you have so few spells to start with: Lvl 1: Sorc 8 spells, Wiz gets half that with only 4 Lvl 2: Sorc 10/ Wiz gets only 6 Lvl 3: Sorc 11/ Wiz 7 Lvl 4: Sorc 15/ Wiz 9 Lvl 5: Sorc 16/ Wiz 10 Lvl 10: Sorc 32/ Wiz 20 Level 20: Sorc 60/ Wiz 40 The spontaneous casting is the nicest thing about Sorcerers and gives a great deal of flexibility if you select your spells carefully, but if you combine that with the Wizards ability to cast almost anything they can find then you are going to start having problems unless you are extremely self disiplined.
webhed999 05-15-06, 11:27 PM	I agree completely with Ynvaar I'm afraid. Sorcerers get great firepower. Giving them the versatility of mages just becomes silly. I'm still open to convincing Roe so keep going if you really want it, but Ynvaar makes my poing exactly.
zae 05-16-06, 12:31 AM	How many of those spells per day will you actually use? At first level, proably all. Great. It seems to be working here. The sorc might have a spell slot left at the end of the day and feel like the wizard's equal. At 5th level, well, the sorcerer won't use any 3rd level spells, so he'll use plenty of 1st and 2nd level ones. Not all. The wizard will use all of his 3rd level ones, and probably all his 2nd level ones, but have 1st level ones remaining. At 10th level, the sorcerer uses up all his 4th and 5th level spells and a couple from lower levels, during the day. If he uses all his spell slots, he's intentionally spending them on random things just for fun. The wizard is really noticing that he too has plenty of prepared spells uncast. Especially when we go into high ability scores and various items that grant extra spells per day. As you go on, the difference matters less and less. If you converted the sorcerer (and only the sorcerer) to spell points - not the UA style but simply lvl 1 = 1 point, lvl 2 = 3pts etc. converting the table, then the sorcerer would actually have any form of advantage from his number of spells per day: He could go nova like a psion and use only his highest level spells over and over. There just isn't enough of a difference in spells per day the further you advance. It isn't really enough to mitigate the fact that they can't know more spells. Of course, you could ban wizards from gaining extra spell slots from a high Int or magic items, but WotC seem happy to let them tread on the Sorc's ground, why not reciprocate? And seeing as they're spending so long actually casting it, it's hardly SPontaneous any more, so they're sort of taking a hit to their real only advantage (Spontaneous casting) in order to do it.
AvaronGansdell 05-16-06, 01:50 AM	in addition to the fact that it takes a long time for wizard to fill those spell slots and this spell basicly just speeds it up. The Intiate of Mystra feat puts the anyspell and greater anyspell on the clerics spell list in addition to being in the spell domain. meaning a cleric who spends that one feat. (or spends a feat to get spontainus domain spell access to the spell domain) can fill many of there slots with wizard spells. further reduceing the need of wizards... ok thats it..forget wizards Mystic Thurdge or regular cleric of the goddess of magic is the way to go. (or god of magic its rather easy to convince the DM that a god like Boccob should have this domain)
webhed999 05-16-06, 02:01 AM	The Intiate of Mystra feat puts the anyspell and greater anyspell on the clerics spell list in addition to being in the spell domain. meaning a cleric who spends that one feat. (or spends a feat to get spontainus domain spell access to the spell domain) can fill many of there slots with wizard spells. Ok, this just reaffirms my dedication to telling my players that I am going "Core only". I'm so sick of one feat or prestige class leading to broken stuff everywhere. Expansion books just introduce so many levels of brokenness I don't even want to bother.
Sian_Son_of_Cune 05-16-06, 09:45 AM	Umm... not sure what progression chart you are looking at but it's obviously not the same as the one in my PHB... (are you confusing spells known with spells per day?) At 20th level the Sorcerer Only (if that is indeed the correct word) gets 20 more spells per day than a Wizard. That is a big difference (I haven't done the math but it looks to be around 50% more at a rough guesstimate). At low levels the difference is comparatively bigger again since you have so few spells to start with: Lvl 1: Sorc 8 spells, Wiz gets half that with only 4 Lvl 2: Sorc 10/ Wiz gets only 6 Lvl 3: Sorc 11/ Wiz 7 Lvl 4: Sorc 15/ Wiz 9 Lvl 5: Sorc 16/ Wiz 10 Lvl 10: Sorc 32/ Wiz 20 Level 20: Sorc 60/ Wiz 40 The spontaneous casting is the nicest thing about Sorcerers and gives a great deal of flexibility if you select your spells carefully, but if you combine that with the Wizards ability to cast almost anything they can find then you are going to start having problems unless you are extremely self disiplined. In my statement I said as little as 9 spells per day and that is because I was not counting cantrips(since they are inconsequential beyond lvl 5). But if you did count cantrips the gap would be 10(-1 per lvl). Since if a wizard who specializes gets +1 spell per level. And did you forget what I said about clerics? The gap there is only like 4 spells(levels 6-9). So my statement is accurate if you read the chart and what I said correctly. I do not consider +1 spell per level a huge advantage, and like I stated before sorc's greatest(and only real) advantage is their ability to spontaneously cast not their spells per day. After saying all that, it is a moot point anyway since I had already addressed any spells per day advantage anyway(re-read the spell). So I will not continue to discuss that aspect of it. So the real question is, would it be unbalaced for a Sorc or Bard to have some limited spell versitility similiar to, but more limited than a wizard or cleric. If you(anyone reading this) believe no it would not be unbalanced, then please answer the question of, what price do you think this ability should cost? Or do you think the current proposal is balanced as is. If you believe such an ability in any form or cost would be unbalancing for the class simply state that and I will note it, and thank you for your opinion.
webhed999 05-16-06, 11:32 AM	I just compared spells per day from levels 1-20 for Sorcerer and Wizard. At 20th level Sorcerers get 20 more spells per day than Wizards. At each level they substantially more spells castable per day than a Wizard of the same level. Spells per day Level Wiz Sorc difference 1st 4 8 50% 2nd 6 10 60% 3rd 7 11 64% 4th 9 15 60% 5th 10 16 63% 6th 12 20 60% 7th 14 22 64% 8th 16 26 62% 9th 18 28 64% 10th 20 32 63% 11th 22 34 65% 12th 24 38 63% 13th 26 40 65% 14th 28 44 64% 15th 30 46 65% 16th 32 50 64% 17th 34 52 65% 18th 36 56 64% 19th 38 58 66% 20th 40 60 67%
webhed999 05-16-06, 11:39 AM	And if you completely take cantrips out of the picture its like this: spells per day Level Wiz Sorc diff 1st 1 3 33% 2nd 2 4 50% 3rd 3 5 60% 4th 5 9 56% 5th 6 10 60% 6th 8 14 57% 7th 10 16 63% 8th 12 20 60% 9th 14 22 64% 10th 16 26 62% 11th 18 28 64% 12th 20 32 63% 13th 22 34 65% 14th 24 38 63% 15th 26 40 65% 16th 28 44 64% 17th 30 46 65% 18th 32 50 64% 19th 34 52 65% 20th 36 54 67% The percentage difference is basically the same.
Sian_Son_of_Cune 05-16-06, 11:46 AM	I just compared spells per day from levels 1-20 for Sorcerer and Wizard. At 20th level Sorcerers get 20 more spells per day than Wizards. At each level they substantially more spells castable per day than a Wizard of the same level. Spells per day Level Wiz Sorc difference 1st 4 8 50% 2nd 6 10 60% 3rd 7 11 64% 4th 9 15 60% 5th 10 16 63% 6th 12 20 60% 7th 14 22 64% 8th 16 26 62% 9th 18 28 64% 10th 20 32 63% 11th 22 34 65% 12th 24 38 63% 13th 26 40 65% 14th 28 44 64% 15th 30 46 65% 16th 32 50 64% 17th 34 52 65% 18th 36 56 64% 19th 38 58 66% 20th 40 60 67% Your math is off, your chart shows that at lvl 20 a wiz gets 67% the spells a sorc gets. Thus the difference is only 33%. AGAIN, I STATED FOR A SPECIALIZED WIZARD So add 10 to your bottom line for the wiz making the difference only about 17% 1 EXTRA SPELL PER SPELL LVL.
webhed999 05-16-06, 12:00 PM	So that basically shows that Sorcerers get both a butt-load more spells AND they can cast spontaneously. Giving them the versatility of mages means you get your cake and eat it too.
webhed999 05-16-06, 12:04 PM	Your math is off, your chart shows that at lvl 20 a wiz gets 67% the spells a sorc gets. Thus the difference is only 33%. AGAIN, I STATED FOR A SPECIALIZED WIZARD So add 10 to your bottom line for the wiz making the difference only about 17% 1 EXTRA SPELL PER SPELL LVL. I'm talking straight mage vs. straight sorcerer and my table was simply meant to illustrate that wizards can cast only 2/3 the spells per day that a sorcerer gets. So, a straight up mage vs. a straight up sorcerer the sorc gets a butt load more spells per day.
Sian_Son_of_Cune 05-16-06, 12:15 PM	In my statement I said as little as 9 spells per day and that is because I was not counting cantrips(since they are inconsequential beyond lvl 5). But if you did count cantrips the gap would be 10(-1 per lvl). Since if a wizard who specializes gets +1 spell per level. And did you forget what I said about clerics? The gap there is only like 4 spells(levels 6-9). So my statement is accurate if you read the chart and what I said correctly. I do not consider +1 spell per level a huge advantage, and like I stated before sorc's greatest(and only real) advantage is their ability to spontaneously cast not their spells per day. After saying all that, it is a moot point anyway since I had already addressed any spells per day advantage anyway(re-read the spell). So I will not continue to discuss that aspect of it. So the real question is, would it be unbalaced for a Sorc or Bard to have some limited spell versitility similiar to, but more limited than a wizard or cleric. If you(anyone reading this) believe no it would not be unbalanced, then please answer the question of, what price do you think this ability should cost? Or do you think the current proposal is balanced as is. If you believe such an ability in any form or cost would be unbalancing for the class simply state that and I will note it, and thank you for your opinion. So that basically shows that Sorcerers get both a butt-load more spells AND they can cast spontaneously. Giving them the versatility of mages means you get your cake and eat it too. So then your opinion is that Sorcerers or Bards getting some versatility is broken reguardless of what it costs them. Ok, thank you. I would like to hear from some others as well.
webhed999 05-16-06, 12:25 PM	So then your opinion is that Sorcerers or Bards getting some versatility is broken reguardless of what it costs them. Ok, thank you. I would like to hear from some others as well. I'm SAYING that if they have more spells than mages AND can spontaneously cast those spells AND they get the versatility of mages, then yeah, I'd call that unbalanced. If they get SOME versatility (purposely designed to be a Sorcerers weak point, probably for a reason) then its not AS unbalanced, but still you are basically attempting to eliminate the thing that Wizards of the Coast intended to be a balancing factor. Now am I saying that there is NO cost at which it couldn't be done? No. But I'm not sure how high that cost should be.
webhed999 05-16-06, 12:33 PM	Your math is off, your chart shows that at lvl 20 a wiz gets 67% the spells a sorc gets. Thus the difference is only 33%. AGAIN, I STATED FOR A SPECIALIZED WIZARD So add 10 to your bottom line for the wiz making the difference only about 17% 1 EXTRA SPELL PER SPELL LVL. Don't forget that specialist mages lose two schools of magic in exchange for that +1 spell per level.
webhed999 05-16-06, 12:43 PM	So then your opinion is that Sorcerers or Bards getting some versatility is broken reguardless of what it costs them. Ok, thank you. I would like to hear from some others as well. Bards already have diversity in that they can cast both arcane and some divine spells.
Sian_Son_of_Cune 05-16-06, 06:03 PM	::bumb::
webhed999 05-16-06, 07:13 PM	::bumb:: I think he means ::bump:: please forgive him, he's still learning to read.
AvaronGansdell 05-16-06, 10:43 PM	you want crazy. the Arcivist from heros of horror can learn any divine spell as long as they can get a hard copy of it as a scroll or something to put into there pryer book. so this means they can learn and cast any Cleric spell, any druid spell, any paladin spell, any ranger spell, any clerical domain spell, and with access to the anyspells they can also save up enemy spellbooks and cast any Wizard spell of up to 5th level. so right there basicly everything accept for a few bard only spells.
ManTimeForgot 05-17-06, 07:05 AM	I won't suggest that giving sorcerers versatility would be overpowered. I'm suggesting that your spells are WAY more powerful than other spells of their level. Your greater read magic is almost as powerful as limited wish, and it has way less cost to its use. Your 3rd level spell is so much more powerful than shadow evocation as to be silly. I'm not interested in another sorcerer wizard comparison thread. That's useless to do here. What is relevant is that the wizard class cannot ever make effective use of either spell as far as I can tell, and the sorcerer class stands to gain immensely by taking both. In fact I can almost certainly tell you that with the introduction of those two spells I would probably give up playing wizards permanently. I can't foresee why I should play one. I'll nab a couple item creation feats and start making up for any conceivable weakness a sorcerer had and then some. To put things into perspective: Wizards are generally seen as magical utility knives whereas Sorcerers are generally seen as magical broadswords. What you are proposing in the form of two little spells is a means by which a sorcerer can transform from a magical broadsword into a magical utility knife and at NO cost. MTF
Sian_Son_of_Cune 05-17-06, 09:19 AM	Your greater read magic is almost as powerful as limited wish, and it has way less cost to its use. Your 3rd level spell is so much more powerful than shadow evocation as to be silly. MTF Hmm.. interesting that you think that Decipher Magic(that is the 6th lvl version not GRM) is on par with Limited Wish, considering: 1) It cannot be cast in combat, and the spell must be prepared ahead of time. While LW is 1 standard action to cast. 2) It can only grant you access to ARCANE spells 5th lvl or lower, if you have the spell in a spellbook and if you have an INT of at least 15(not the primary stat for a sorc). While limited wish can also grant you divine spells(Cleric, Druid, Ranger, etc..) 3) Because of the INT limitation, DM and GRM can be cast 3 maybe 4 times a day in most instances(by a sorc). ok, now this... Your 3rd level spell is so much more powerful than shadow evocation as to be silly. 1) Again. Shadow Evocation is a standard action to cast. GRM 15 min cast time. 2) Spells cast with SE have a save DC of a 5th lvl spell even if you are using it to cast fireball. 3) Spells prepared with GRM have their DC controlled by the casters Int, regardless of their primary casting stat. So when talking about sorc's we are looking at maybe 14, if that? 4) GRM can only cast 2nd lvl and lower spells. So I dont know where your coming from with that statement. Also keep in mind that I did not pull these spells out of thin air. They are published spells in several source books published by wizards. I am just trying to develop an arcane version of it. Finally, though I thank you for your input, if you dont agree with the spell balance but think it is possible in some form. Please don't just tell me the spells are broken, give suggestions on how you would fix them. Otherwise your post does not help me that much. I am looking for constructive criticism, not just "Thats way overpowered".
webhed999 05-17-06, 09:19 AM	nevermind - he replied while I was typing the previous version of this post lol
webhed999 05-17-06, 11:47 AM	Hey ManTimeForgot, could you please reply to Sian Son of Cunes response above? I'd like to hear what you think.
ManTimeForgot 05-17-06, 12:52 PM	Who really cares if the spells can't be cast in combat? These spells single handedly cover up the only real weakness a sorcerer has: that being the inability to have a spell capable of dealing with every situation. If for some reason the party hits a snag and the sorc doesn't have a spell for the job, then there is some trouble. Those few times when you really need a fabricate or gaseous form all of a sudden aren't a problem anymore. With these little gems the sorcerer pretty much can forget about the need for scrolls or wands of spells 5th level or lower. That's potent. Once a sorc finds out about these babies a +6 int bonus circlet is going to be forthcoming no questions asked. I'd easily start with a 12 int, and don't act like that's altogether unreasonable since sorcs are pressed for skill points as it is. So I can pretty much guarantee 5 uses of this toy by the time 11th or 12th level rolls around. You are trying to turn an ill-conceived domain spell which is ONLY a domain spell barring some other ill-conceived feats/class abilities into an arcane spell which is usable more than once per day and would make scribe scroll and craft wand essentially useless to a sorcerer. Shadow conjuration allows an extra save and if the will save is successful renders the spell nearly inoperable. Shadow conjuration works on only ONE school of magic. Shadow conjuration is gained one level later than your 3rd level power and is not nearly as useful. The shadow spells give a sorcerer a nice set of forks and knives, but all the forks and knives in the world don't mean a damn if all you need is a spoon. Your spells gives the sorcerer a swiss army knife complete with spoons. I'm giving you constructive criticism. You are eliminating 90% of the weaknesses of the sorcerer without giving the wizard a damn thing. The wizard gets maybe 0.1% gain from this, and the sorcerer is essentially rendered flawless. How exactly do you justify this? MTF
Sian_Son_of_Cune 05-17-06, 01:10 PM	Who really cares if the spells can't be cast in combat? These spells single handedly cover up the only real weakness a sorcerer has: that being the inability to have a spell capable of dealing with every situation. If for some reason the party hits a snag and the sorc doesn't have a spell for the job, then there is some trouble. Those few times when you really need a fabricate or gaseous form all of a sudden aren't a problem anymore. With these little gems the sorcerer pretty much can forget about the need for scrolls or wands of spells 5th level or lower. That's potent. Once a sorc finds out about these babies a +6 int bonus circlet is going to be forthcoming no questions asked. I'd easily start with a 12 int, and don't act like that's altogether unreasonable since sorcs are pressed for skill points as it is. So I can pretty much guarantee 5 uses of this toy by the time 11th or 12th level rolls around. You are trying to turn an ill-conceived domain spell which is ONLY a domain spell barring some other ill-conceived feats/class abilities into an arcane spell which is usable more than once per day and would make scribe scroll and craft wand essentially useless to a sorcerer. Shadow conjuration allows an extra save and if the will save is successful renders the spell nearly inoperable. Shadow conjuration works on only ONE school of magic. Shadow conjuration is gained one level later than your 3rd level power and is not nearly as useful. The shadow spells give a sorcerer a nice set of forks and knives, but all the forks and knives in the world don't mean a damn if all you need is a spoon. Your spells gives the sorcerer a swiss army knife complete with spoons. I'm giving you constructive criticism. You are eliminating 90% of the weaknesses of the sorcerer without giving the wizard a damn thing. The wizard gets maybe 0.1% gain from this, and the sorcerer is essentially rendered flawless. How exactly do you justify this? MTF Ok I see your point, something that has been stated by others. I have re-worked it again and put it in this new thread. Please jump to there, re-read it and give me your thoughts on that. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=638974 Thanks for the help.
AvaronGansdell 05-17-06, 03:21 PM	actualy after reading things over theses spells can be called unnessesary after a fasion. at 15th level a sorcerer can take the feat Extra Spell and choose Greater Anyspell to permanatly add to there list of known spells thus achiveing the same effect if not at the same level. infact the Extra spell Feat could be the strongest feat in compleat arcane.