Post/Author/DateTime	Post
hughman 08-11-06, 05:15 PM	Intro: I am looking at designing a campaign where, basically, there are no good people, at least at the start. Over time the balance in the world has severely shifted, gods have been bound, races been demolished etc. such that there are no good people left to speak of. Healing magic from clerical and druidic sources is rare, and non existant in some parts, leaving a void for the arcane casters to move into. So the concept of Morphic Chirurgery came to pass; Arcane casters who study how to meld the flesh of beings so as to heal damage to them. Feat: Morphic Chirurgeon You have studied intensely the application of transmutation to flesh allowing healing abilities Prerequisites: Int, or Cha 15, Caster level 4 Benefit: through intense study you have gained access to the Morphic Chirurgery line of spells. Wizards add these spells to their spell book upon reaching the appropriate level. Sorcerers can select two of the line to add to their spells known list, and may use their spells known slots to add the remaining 2. Spells: Morphic Chirurgery Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 4, Cle 3, Dru 4 Components: V, S,M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Creature touched Duration: 3 rounds/conc. (see text) Saving Throw: no(harmless) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) You touch the wound and the flesh around it melts slowly enfolding the damaged tissue and leaving behind healthy flesh You heal the creature touched of 2d8 damage per round for three rounds starting and including the round the spell was cast. This healing occurs on your turn. Shapeshifters and Doppelgangers receiving healing from this spell gain +2 hp per round due to the high mutability of their flesh. Metamagic applied to the spell effects only the first round of healing without the concentration of the caster. Loss of concentration does not stop the spell, but ends the metamagic effect applied to the spell. This spell cannot be extended or persisted. Multiple variations of the Morphic Chirurgery spells will have affect at the same time, identical types will not. For example, if a creature has Morphic Chirurgery, Greater Morphic Chirurgery, and Least Morphic Chirurgery cast on them, they will heal 1d4 + 5d8 per round. However if they have Morphic Chirurgery, Least Morphic Chirurgery, and Morphic Chirurgery cast on them they will only heal 1d4 + 2d8 per round. There is no visual way to tell how many of what types of Morphic Chirurgery are in effect on a being. Least Morphic Chirurgery Level: Sor/Wiz 2, Cle 1 Dru 2 As Morphic Chirurgery, only you heal 1d4 per round Lesser Morphic Chirurgery Level: Sor/Wiz 3, Cle 2 Dru 3 As Morphic Chirurgery, only you heal 1d8 per round Greater Morphic Chirurgery Level: Sor/Wiz 5, Cle 4 Dru 5 As Morphic Chirurgery, only you heal 3d8 per round Creator’s notes: I have always though it really dumb that an arcane caster can’t heal in D&D. I do believe in some classes being better than others in areas, but I don’t see why arcane casters can’t heal. They can channel negative energy (see most necromancy spells) so why not Positive energy? I got to thinking about it, and realized that arcane casters wouldn’t heal in the same manner as divine casters anyway, so I figured out a mechanic that seemed appropriate and here it is. Within my campaign, I am going to making some mechanic whereby these spells can be applied similar to a potion, but with a swift action, so that the party can function w/o a healer if necessary. Mostly this is due to there not being many healers overall in the world, so finding one in the party would be unusual in the least. So, I would also appreciate any advice to pricing on making what would basically be a potion or scroll that can be used as a swift action. Please let me know what you think, is there something here that needs balancing? Is there something here that is too weak? Thank you all in advance for your advice! Hughman
Thiez 08-11-06, 05:25 PM	"This spell cannot be extended or persisted." Well, that sucks. I'd make it into a magic item, though. Continual your spell for the win. Anyway, I don't like that. Metamagic should be restricted by its own restrictions, not by the spell it is applied to.
hughman 08-11-06, 05:33 PM	"This spell cannot be extended or persisted." Well, that sucks. I'd make it into a magic item, though. Continual your spell for the win. Anyway, I don't like that. Metamagic should be restricted by its own restrictions, not by the spell it is applied to.Actually, if you look closely at the description of the spell, that line is redundant, since the application of Metamagic to the spell requires concentration, thus negating the ability to apply Persistant and Extend spell to it (It also is not applicable to Persistant, since the targetting type is wrong). Mostly I didn't want the spell to be so easily be able to outshine the Cure spells. They are primarily intended to be equivalent, but at a higher level. But that doesn't help balance the spells themselves. Any Advice? Hughman
Horseshoe_Hermit 08-11-06, 05:41 PM	Cure magic just doesn't suit arcane magic. Arcane magic is the tapping of some kind of force or energy which pervades the universe, and can cause drastic changes or effects. The level of an arcane spell is appropriate to the degree of change or manipulation. Arcane magic is channeled to cause something, rarely to reverse. Healing just isn't spectacular. Healing is a medical practice, or the thing of clerics and Gods. Leave magic to the divine casters. With arcane vs. divine debates aside, who *wants* an arcane spell that cures, especially if it sucks? I'd never take the spell, it doesn't do anything. I never want the ability to heal, and if I needed it, others can do it better.
hughman 08-11-06, 05:48 PM	Cure magic just doesn't suit arcane magic. Arcane magic is the tapping of some kind of force or energy which pervades the universe, and can cause drastic changes or effects. The level of an arcane spell is appropriate to the degree of change or manipulation. Arcane magic is channeled to cause something, rarely to reverse.In reponse I would like to point out that the effect form this spell is merely a specialized extension of the Polymorph/Shapechange spells. From your statement you don't think they should get those either? Healing just isn't spectacular. Healing is a medical practice, or the thing of clerics and Gods. Leave magic to the divine casters. With arcane vs. divine debates aside, who *wants* an arcane spell that cures, especially if it sucks? I'd never take the spell, it doesn't do anything. I never want the ability to heal, and if I needed it, others can do it better.Not sure at all how to respond to this other than to say, that you seem to think that the spell sucks, so Why do you think so? other than that you don't want to be a wizard taht casts spells (note that divine casters can get this too!) Thanks for the non critique critique. Anyone with some actuall reasoned opinions? Hughman
Seerow 08-11-06, 06:01 PM	I think people in your campaigns are going to have a hard time healing at all. You have to blow a feat just to gain access to some spells that cure far less than an equivalent healing spell of a lower level? Wizard-For a second level slot you get 3d4 healing over 3 rounds. Average of 7.5 damage. Cleric-For a first level slot, CLW would healing you 1d8+5=9.5 damage, all at once. Wizard-Third level slot, you get 3d8 healing over 3 rounds. Average 13.5 Cleric-Second level slot, you get 2d8+10, average 19. Wizard-4th level slot, you get 6d8 healing over 3 rounds. Average of 27 Cleric-3rd level slot, you get 3d8+15 all at once, average 28.5 Wizard-5th level slot, you get 9d8 healing over 3 rounds, average 40.5 Cleric-4th level slot, you get 4d8+20 at once. average 38. If you made it so the spells cured the full ammount of damage at once, it MIGHT be competing with a Clerical spell of a spell level lower, the clerical spell is still going to be better. But you blew a feat on it, just to suck. This completely ignores what happens when you get past 5th level spells, and you have Clerics tossing around heal for 200 healing straight up compared to the Wizard's lack of anything above 5th level. Frankly, if you're going to get rid of Clerics and Druids, just make these spells work like the equivalent clerical spell at the cost of a feat. Parties need that healing early on.
Horseshoe_Hermit 08-11-06, 06:05 PM	In reponse I would like to point out that the effect form this spell is merely a specialized extension of the Polymorph/Shapechange spells. From your statement you don't think they should get those either? Not sure at all how to respond to this other than to say, that you seem to think that the spell sucks, so Why do you think so? other than that you don't want to be a wizard taht casts spells (note that divine casters can get this too!) Thanks for the non critique critique. Anyone with some actuall reasoned opinions? Hughman I find your question insulting to me. I was trying to be brief about what I thought were accepted facts. Polymorph and Shaepchange just happen to cause healing. I don't know why, but apparently changing forms for the first time of an effect which allows it restores fitness to the body. This is a side-effect of an inherently Arcane effect. The Arcane magic causes the polymorph, and the polymorph causes the healing. Would you say that an Arcane spell which summons a healing creature is likewise non-Arcane? The spell has to suck. No matter what you did, it would still be an Arcane spell which heals. The balance rules require that Divine spells heal better than Arcane spells. So, if your spell is balanced, it will suck, because all it will do is heal, and poorly. If you make it non-balanced, well it really doesn't matter how we critique because an unbalanced spell can do anything, really. Now, I think you left a part out of your sentence here... "Why do you think so? other than that you don't want to be a wizard taht casts spells (note that divine casters can get this too!) " I do want to be a Wizard which casts spells. I don't think that's what you were asking, though. It is a critique critique. I told you this spell concept is inherently flawed and it will fail and you should give up. It does not matter that you want "constructive criticism," trying to make 2+2 equal 5 never works. Work on something else - it's a better use of time.
Illuman 08-11-06, 06:15 PM	Fellow Transmuter! It's good finally to see a spellcaster who appreciates my art. Well I do agree with you as odd as it sounds! Only two adjustments i think are needed. For one, the spell should only work by the concentration (allowing a variable not arguable by the balancing system). This would keep the wizard from other actions but balance the over all system. Secondly, what's the material component? Other than that Keep pushing your idea! don't give up on this one i know i'm using it in my game soon.
Seerow 08-11-06, 06:19 PM	I find your question insulting to me. I was trying to be brief about what I thought were accepted facts. Polymorph and Shaepchange just happen to cause healing. I don't know why, but apparently changing forms for the first time of an effect which allows it restores fitness to the body. This is a side-effect of an inherently Arcane effect. The Arcane magic causes the polymorph, and the polymorph causes the healing. Would you say that an Arcane spell which summons a healing creature is likewise non-Arcane? The spell has to suck. No matter what you did, it would still be an Arcane spell which heals. The balance rules require that Divine spells heal better than Arcane spells. So, if your spell is balanced, it will suck, because all it will do is heal, and poorly. If you make it non-balanced, well it really doesn't matter how we critique because an unbalanced spell can do anything, really. Now, I think you left a part out of your sentence here... "Why do you think so? other than that you don't want to be a wizard taht casts spells (note that divine casters can get this too!) " I do want to be a Wizard which casts spells. I don't think that's what you were asking, though. It is a critique critique. I told you this spell concept is inherently flawed and it will fail and you should give up. It does not matter that you want "constructive criticism," trying to make 2+2 equal 5 never works. Work on something else - it's a better use of time. 1) Clerics can have access to pretty much any Wizard spell they want via domains. Is it REALLY that bad to toss the Wizard a bone and give him access to healing spells if he blows a feat on it? 2) If you read the innitial post, Divine casters in his game are all but nonexistant. So the "balance" between the two doesn't matter in this case. Instead think of the balance within the party. Without a Divine caster, they need someone able to heal. So if anything these spells need to be better than they are, not worse.
Xylem 08-11-06, 06:20 PM	Given that Bards, who are arcane spellcasters, can already cast most healing spells (see here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/bardSpells.htm)), I see no philosophical objections to arcane healing. (For that matter, Truenamers from the Tome of Magic can also heal, and are sort of arcane spellcasters). The question of balance remains. A Bard gets CLW (heal 1d8+level) at 2nd level, max 1d8+5. This averages from 6.5 points (at 2nd level) to 9.5 points (at 3rd level). A Wizard gets Least Morphic Chirurgery at 3rd level, and heals an average of 7.5 points with it, but it takes 3 rounds. A Bard gets CMW (heal 2d8 + level) at 4th level, max 2d8+10. This averages from 13 points (at 4th level) to 19 points (at 10th level). A Wizard gets Lesser Morphic Chirurgery at 5th level, and heals an average of 13.5 points with it, but it takes 3 rounds. A Bard gets CSW (heal 3d8 + level) at 7th level, max 3d8+15. This averages from 20.5 points (at 7th level) to 28.5 points (at 15th level). A Wizard gets Morphic Chirurgery at 7th level, and heals an average of 27 points with it, but it takes 3 rounds. A Bard gets CCW (heal 4d8 + level) at 10th level, max 4d8+20. This averages from 28 points (at 10th level) to 38 points (at 20th level). A Wizard gets Greater Morphic Chirurgery at 9th level, and heals an average of 40.5 points with it, but it takes 3 rounds. At higher level a Bard gets the mass versions of the heal spells, and the Wizard presumably gets nothing. It seems like at low levels, the Bard and Wizard using these spells are roughly matched in how effective their cure spells are, but at medium level the Wizard pulls ahead, but then at high level the bard gains the ability to perform mass cure spells, which are nice. I'd say the spells are roughly balanced, although maybe Morphic Chirurgery and Greater Morphic Chirurgery ought to use d6's instead of d8's to bring them more into line with the Bard's spells. I would note that these spells would work very nicely with the War Weaver PrC from (I think) Heroes of Battle.
Thiez 08-11-06, 06:32 PM	1) Clerics can have access to pretty much any Wizard spell they want via domains. Is it REALLY that bad to toss the Wizard a bone and give him access to healing spells if he blows a feat on it? Funny. You can get two domains, any more require a feat. Two domains get you 18 spells (if they don't have the same spell on both). Some of those spells may be sor/wiz. Then again, they could also be druid. Let's assume those 18 spells are ALL Sor/Wiz. According to you, that's 'pretty much any Wizard spell', so let's assume there are 30 wizard spells. If a wizard learns 2 spells per level, he does not learn any new spells beyond 15th level. It must suck to be a wizard in your campaign.
hughman 08-11-06, 06:33 PM	...Frankly, if you're going to get rid of Clerics and Druids, just make these spells work like the equivalent clerical spell at the cost of a feat. Parties need that healing early on.Thanks for the input. I will have to think on this. Maybe bring the spells down to level 1-4? I really am not expecting the arcane casters in my party to cast these (see next paragraph) but for world consistency's sake need to make it an option. I think that in the least (and I will do so after this post) I will make the spells openly available to Divine casters. What it seems I didn't make clear enough is that this is the base set of spells on which I would make something like a swift action potion which the melee could then heal themselves with. So each round they can drop another one of these on them, totalling 6d8 per round. As to the cleric's getting Heal spell, (which is limited to 150 hp, or am I over looking something?) The idea behind these Heal over Time spells is to keep the person from getting so low that they need that much healing in the first place! That, combined with what will probably be increased damage output (4 damage dealers instead of 3+ healer) should keep people alive. Also, I didn't say that I was eliminating clerics/druidds, I said that healing cleric/druid (as opposed to clerics channeling negative energy) were rare. Since they will be a good party in an evil world, standing out in the crowd should be avoided, but if a player wants to be a good cleric, by all means! I know that my players all don't like to play clerics, and I am trying to make a workable system where they can feel they aren't Forced by the game itself into someone playing a class they don't like.
hughman 08-11-06, 06:46 PM	At higher level a Bard gets the mass versions of the heal spells, and the Wizard presumably gets nothing.I had looked at doing some Mass versions, but hadn't really lookd hard at it. Ultimately I think that the world's attitude, being predominantly evil, would be "deal with it yourself!" and so each person can pop the heal potions as they need it. Remember that with constant casts of this, you can get a circle going where you are getting 6d8 heals ever round, or about 27.5 HP each round. While that isn't a lot at any one time, but it will be constant. Whereas cleric healing is spiky. i.e. you take damage a round or two before he hits you with a full heal type thing. Thanks for the hard numbers. They were actually useful in terms of looking towards the upper levels. Hughman
Seerow 08-11-06, 11:41 PM	Funny. You can get two domains, any more require a feat. Two domains get you 18 spells (if they don't have the same spell on both). Some of those spells may be sor/wiz. Then again, they could also be druid. Let's assume those 18 spells are ALL Sor/Wiz. According to you, that's 'pretty much any Wizard spell', so let's assume there are 30 wizard spells. If a wizard learns 2 spells per level, he does not learn any new spells beyond 15th level. It must suck to be a wizard in your campaign. Yes, so you admit the Cleric can get 18 Wizard/Sorc spells for free. I'm saying give the Wizard a handful of Cleric Spells for a feat. Doesn't seem so bad to me. I wasn't arguing the Cleric will have all of those spells at a given time (Though with the Spell Domain, he could arguably have most of them...), I said he could have the ones he wanted. Which is true, if the Cleric wants Fly, Teleport, Dimension Door, he can take a Domain and get all of those. If he wants Time Stop? He can get it with a Domain. But if the Wizard wants Cure Light Wounds? NEVER! CLERICS HEAL NOT WIZARDS, SAYING A WIZARD CAN HEAL IS LUDICROUS! WHERE DO YOU GET SUCH IDEAS?!?! Also, it's funny that you comment being a Wizard must suck in my game. I had someone else on these boards tell me just the opposite less than a day ago. What it seems I didn't make clear enough is that this is the base set of spells on which I would make something like a swift action potion which the melee could then heal themselves with. So each round they can drop another one of these on them, totalling 6d8 per round. As to the cleric's getting Heal spell, (which is limited to 150 hp, or am I over looking something?) The idea behind these Heal over Time spells is to keep the person from getting so low that they need that much healing in the first place! That, combined with what will probably be increased damage output (4 damage dealers instead of 3+ healer) should keep people alive. Well, if you have a Wizard standing back spending every action renewing one of the 3 spells on him, not only is he expending more spell slots, he's having less effect. Yes, the character is gaining 27HP per round, but the Wizard is spending -every- action he has making sure that stays at 27 HP per round. And not an inconsiderable number of spellslots. So to keep the Fighters alive a few rounds longer, you've taken your Wizard out of the game. While your players might not do it, I'm going to assume you have every BBEG in your game with a high level Wizard following him around just to heal, or that's not going to keep up, at all. And realistically, those high level Wizards could be spending their actions doing other things instead, and probably beating whoever else on their own.
JulesCARV 08-12-06, 12:58 AM	I should note that evil clerics (and all druids, archivists, etc) can still heal: they just need to prepare such spells, rather than doing it spontaneously. In addition, rangers (regardless of alignment, or even without any injunctions to respect nature like druids) can cast some healing spells. Bards can heal. Egoist psions can heal, especially those that go into the Sangehirn prestige class. Ur-Priests can heal. Artificers and warlocks can make items that heal. The only ones who can't heal, really, are sorcerers, wu jens and wizards, so I don't feel like the fact that three full spellcasting classes can't heal is a big problem. However, if you want to make healing wizard/sorcerer spells, I don't think new spells are necessary. If adding them to the spell list would be too demanding, just make it possible to add normal healing spells to the wizard, sorcerer, or wu jen list. Also, healing in D&D requires more than just getting rid of hit point damage: it requires removing diseases, neutralizing poisons, restoring ability damage and negative levels, curing blindness/deafness, and even raising the dead: as such, coming up with a whole set of spells to replace the current system of clerical healing strikes me as impractical. Anyway, I would make a more demanding but more powerful version of arcane disciple without any connection to divine magic. My take: Medical Arcana [General] Prerequisites: Spell focus (conjuration), greater spell focus (conjuration), heal 4 ranks, spellcraft 4 ranks. Benefit: You add Conjuration (healing) spells to your wizard/sorcerer spell list. They are considered to be spells of the equivalent cleric level. Although these spells are now on your spell list, this does not mean you know them or that they are in your spell book: if you use a spellbook, you must either add them to your spellbook when you level up or find scrolls or borrow a spellbook and copy them to your spellbook, as with any other spell. If you cast spells spontaneously, you must make them spells known normally, and they take up a "spell known" slot as normal.
hughman 08-12-06, 01:42 AM	Well, if you have a Wizard standing back spending every action renewing one of the 3 spells on him, not only is he expending more spell slots, he's having less effect. Yes, the character is gaining 27HP per round, but the Wizard is spending -every- action he has making sure that stays at 27 HP per round. And not an inconsiderable number of spellslots. So to keep the Fighters alive a few rounds longer, you've taken your Wizard out of the game. While your players might not do it, I'm going to assume you have every BBEG in your game with a high level Wizard following him around just to heal, or that's not going to keep up, at all. And realistically, those high level Wizards could be spending their actions doing other things instead, and probably beating whoever else on their own.Uh, Seerow, can you read that post again? The idea is to have the melee healing themselves! thus leaving the wizard free to kill, or whatever he wishes. I also, need to keep the fighters at least a little worried about their health, if only to maintain some tension in battle. So, you can't just hand an insta heal to the Fighter, or he won't worry about battles cause he knows that he has HP in a bottle anytime he wants. It takes the stress out of it. Having to figure decide how much healing he will need not just now, but in the next few rounds, on the other hand, gives him a little more to worry about, creating tension. Having it be a potion adds more tension in form of the question, "If I use this now, will I need it later?" Hughman
Horseshoe_Hermit 08-12-06, 01:48 AM	I tried to write this earlier, but Forums and Chat weren't responding, so here's a copy of it I placed in a Text Document. I wrote it after Seerow's last comment, but was referring to the comment he made before that. "Your points about the status of Divine spellcasters in your game is duly noted, but there's only so far that you can blur the line. What is the point to creating this heal spell? Various practical objections to the existence of the spell have been raised. I will give you a flavourful one. Giving an arcane healing spell muddies the identity of the healer and the wizard. The wizard studies to learn, to change, to cause, and to see what is possible. The wizard wants to apply and practice and experiment. Healing is by its very nature set in the past, and does not link the caster with the future. When you heal, you are reversing an effect at the location of the effect. Healing does not go after the source, which is where all problems must be stopped. Healing does not change the overall situation, it only bides time, undoing something. It's actually much less effective than undoing something, because undoing your opponent would be more effective than undoing his works. He can simply hurt you again. The wizard, interested in exploring (his class description says he is a scholar who specializes greatly in magic as something to study), does not wish to work backwards in time, but to move forward. The Wizard would try to prevent future harm in some creative way. The wizard would make something new. Anyone can heal, and let those who care directly for the well-being of people in the present do that. A wizard's most important matter is his spells (also from class description), so it is important to use a spell with a truly magical effect to move forward. Healing, even if caused by magic, is still a very much mundane thing. Magic just makes medicine better. If you think I'm linking class to closely with alignment, then consider: a person of an alignment defines his role in that alignment by his class. A fighter fights against foes, good or evil, a thief subverts obstacles, set by good or evil, and a cleric, channels lordly might and tends for the need of the group, against good or evil. A wizard, what role is there left for him? That is this: To search for new means, new methods, to catch the enemy by surprise. To always have an extra trick up your sleeve, to always be one step ahead. Even if that is the use of an orderly magic like abjuration or divination, a wizard plays his role by being the wild card element, keeping the opponent unsure as to what he can accomplish, what he may know, or what the opponent does not know. In addition to how his scholarly knowledge gives him problem-solving skills, arcane magic is very adaptable and rewards this creativity. Even a brutish method of memorizing fireballs is itself a tactic - there are so many variations in types of attacks that they could still catch the opponent off guard, and the ability to memorize offensive magic, even if you never do, is still an option in your arsenal which your opponent has to fear. Your opponent knows the fighter will probably try to beat him to death, he knows the cleric is simply out to destroy his soul, and he even knows the gist of that the one in leather armor has some kind of trap. But the robed one with the book could do anything, and you won't know until he does it. To tie this back into the original question, here you see that no matter the alignment of the wizard, the way in which he knows he is equipped to bring about his goals is through using his adaptability and ability to look to the future, to try to cause and shift. Healing does not change. It does not work towards a different future. It returns to the way things were - before the pain. If you healed all the time, what motivation would there be to seek out a means of preventing the pain in the first place, to stop the problem where it starts? The wizard fills that role, the same way scientists think about our future in the real world. They know that now is important, but others will take care of that. The wizard, and the scientist, are bound by their profession to seek out the future. This is very conceptual, and if you don't buy it from the get-go, I don't think I can ever make it mean something to you."
Wind of Darkness 08-12-06, 11:37 AM	Err... for the record, it is possible for Wizards to gain access to healing spells already. There's a feat caled Arcane Disciple, which I believe is in CD, that grants arcanists access to a chosen Cleric Domain. So, choose the Healing Domain, and you're set. You can only prepare each spell in the domain once per day, unfortunately, and the spells are cast based on WIS, not INT, but it's something. So... yeah. Just my 2cp.
Artix_the_Incarnate 08-12-06, 12:26 PM	Cure magic just doesn't suit arcane magic. Then how do you explain bards? Not trying to sound rude or anything, but obviously WoTC has some very different opinions on this then you do. Bards are Arcane casters that have Cure Spells.
camble 08-12-06, 12:28 PM	This is very conceptual, and if you don't buy it from the get-go, I don't think I can ever make it mean something to you." Pretty much If a wizard is always the one with a trick up his sleeve then why wouldn't the wiz/Sor want to have a Heal Over Time spell. It is one more trick he can master. You are also completely over looking the bard who is able to heal. Personally I would take elven spell lore for say scorching ray or fireball and make a positive energy ball or positve energy ray. Simply because a fireball like version of heal makes me smile :D
hughman 08-12-06, 05:38 PM	Horseshoe_Hermit, it is clear that we are going ot have to "agree to disagree" on this. You and I, at least, look at the situation VERY Diferently, starting from the very premise of what a wizard is. If you want to continue your discusion (I wouldn't mind it) please start a differnt thread, and send me the link in a PM, I will gladly argue that topic with you here. I ask that you not continue this argument in this thread, as it is well and far away from the question I asked. i.e. an evaluation of the spells, reguardless of the casting class. To that end, I ask you, if these spells were cleric/druid only, what would you do to make them viable and balanced? Everyone, please let's return to the intent of the thread, that is an evaluation of the spells I listed and what, if anything needs to be done to make them viable and balanced. I do not want this thread to be hijacked into side issues that hit people's hot buttons and prevents them from giving the spells themselves an honest evaluation. Thank you again for the advice given, and I look forward to other suggestions Hughman.
Horseshoe_Hermit 08-12-06, 07:41 PM	The healing spells that bards have were errata'd out of the PhB. I don't know in which version, but eventually - I think 3.5. Okay, maybe I won't argue about arcane vs. divine and healing, but I can still tell you that making this heal spell in your campaign is still a bad idea. You said you got rid of healing magic because you got rid of most divine casters because good is gone. If this is so, why would there be a healing spell? If the divine casters gave up on it, why would anyone else take that up? To answer your question, sure, healing over time is a neat concept. I think it would be interesting if it caused some side effect though, since you said it's a patchwork type of transmutation spell. Fusing flesh together can't work on everything. Perhaps some kind of penalty, to saving throws, or constitution, proportional to the original lack of hitpoints, should accompany the spell. Think of it like this: If I have a cut, a simple mend will close it over. If there's a tear through my neck, closing it imprecisely will interfere in vital organ processes, or possibly speech.
Nephlite 08-12-06, 08:00 PM	The healing spells that bards have were errata'd out of the PhB. I don't know in which version, but eventually - I think 3.5. False, only in 2.0 did Bards lack healing (they had fireball instead). Bot 3.0 and 3.5 gave Bards healing spells. Never errated out: Unless you house ruled it out. Okay, maybe I won't argue about arcane vs. divine and healing, but I can still tell you that making this heal spell in your campaign is still a bad idea. You said you got rid of healing magic because you got rid of most divine casters because good is gone. If this is so, why would there be a healing spell? If the divine casters gave up on it, why would anyone else take that up? Even bad guys heal so why would getting rid of good take away healing? OP has strange ideas I think, right?
JulesCARV 08-13-06, 03:53 PM	I think that the Morphic Chirurgery spells are fine. Right now, they occupy a sort of middle ground between the Vigor series of spells and the Cure series of spells. However, I feel like if you intend to phase out the clerical/druidic role in healing, these won't be sufficient, because in D&D, healers are expected not merely to be able to heal hit-point damage, but to restore sight and hearing, neutralize poisons, cure diseases, dispel negative levels, curses, and ability damage, regrow lost limbs, break enchantments (though wizards can already do that), and even bring back the dead. Morphic Chirurgery spells don't do any of that. Furthermore, there's nothing inherently "divine" about the "cure" spells that means that arcane spellcasters in a world without much divine magic shouldn't cast them: it's just wizards and sorcerers happen to have their own peculiar spell list which doesn't include them. It could, though. In short, my view is that, independently, the spells are fine. The fact that they interact a bit oddly with metamagic, specifying how metamagic feats affect them, is a bit of a problem, but nothing too serious. However, in the context of the D&D spell system as a whole, they're redundant (quickened but not instantaneous hit-point healing is already represented in the Vigor series of spells, and instantaneous hit-point healing is already represented in the Cure series), and, if intended to be the soul additions to the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list that make them possible healers, insufficient to boot, since none of them can do any of the things D&D healers are called upon to do except restore hit point damage. So, that's my critique, as requested.
Thiez 08-13-06, 08:27 PM	"Furthermore, there's nothing inherently "divine" about the "cure" spells that means that arcane spellcasters in a world without much divine magic shouldn't cast them" Furthermore, there's nothing inherently "arcane" about the "fireball" spell that means that divine spellcasters in a world without much arcane magic shouldn't cast them. :P
Alamanther's comeback 08-14-06, 03:40 AM	I think your spells are rather interesting, and I sense a real effort to balance them by requiring a feat from the caster to make them available. I'd probably rename them lesser morphic chirurgery, morphic chirurgery, greater morphic chirurgery, and superior morphic chirurgy, simply to match them better to already existing spell chains. Those who are deadly opposed to wizards and sorcerers healing should note that apart from polymorph, there is also light of Venya, which heals 2d6 points of damage - though only to non-evil creatures. Now, many will say that it is from the Spell Compendium and try to exclude from the argument that way, but I still think it represents an interesting attempt at offering healing to arcanists, albeit in a very restricted form. The same book offers synostoweomer, which converts spells into healing at a measly 1d8/level of converted spell. This indicates that healing is indeed something that sorcerers and wizards would not only want to do, but are also capable of doing - their particular magic just isn't suited for it, so they have to go in the back door, so to speak. How would you guys feel about an arcane Transmutation spell that converted lethal damage into subdual damage? In the span of a single battle, this would strictly only be helpful to keep an ally from dying, offering no ability to keep him in fighting shape longer. However, between battles, it would offer some moderate actual healing as subdual damage heals at a faster rate than lethal damage. Thus, a spell of this nature would not be able to rival the Conjuration [Healing] spells in any way, but it would allow some modest healing in the long run.
Thiez 08-14-06, 07:44 AM	Yeh know, I could live with an arcane Damage-to-Subdual spell. It'd have to be written pretty carefully though. Isn't there a spell that grants immunity to subdual damage?