Archer vs. Wind Wall [Archive] - Wizards Community

Archer vs. Wind Wall [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
dygon470
04-08-07, 08:51 AM Is there any way for an archer to bypass the spell wind wall? i can only think of a couple and they really would need to be dm approved as they are not RAW. Two enhancements i can think of are Blood Seeking, and Force. Are there any spells besides Dispel or the like that negate wind wall. This is kindof important because im an Scout/Ranger archer and my Dm's final boss is a Sor/Wiz.
sineous blackspell
04-08-07, 10:04 AM i dont know what levels you are or what edition your playing but id say the passwall spell should make holes in it or perhaps you can fly over it change your size maybe? so your equipmet/arrows are larger
CookieFiend
04-08-07, 10:27 AM Buy some ballista bolts and cast have a wiz cast shrink items for you so there the size of arrows. Then after firing them say the word that unshrinks them.

Or there is some sort of bracers that lets you modify wind to protect you vs arrows and help yours fly better. If your dm lets you you could say the bracers and the wall negate each other.
primemover003
04-08-07, 10:51 AM Beyond dispelling the wall your arrows aren't gonna do much at all. You either need to fly above the wizard and fire down on him or you need to switch to some thrown weapons (30% miss chance) like spears or javelins... or javelins of lightning!

Sometime tactics dictate that you draw your melee weapon and use it too.
Fallenangel359
04-08-07, 03:27 PM shrunken ballista bolts would actually work. Once they leave you, they unshrink, increasing their mass.

throwing boulders always works...
Iver Gearsham
04-08-07, 03:27 PM I recall Ricashay sp? a feat or chain of feats that let one shoot around corners that would let you get around the wall if there were space and suface to reflect off of.
Zuractai
04-08-07, 11:10 PM I was running a quest, where at the end they were ambushed. One of the PC's got highest inititive, and then all of the people ambushing (All with Crossbows, and one with a Bow.) Player cast Wind wall, and they all fired (Doing nothing.) Answer, draw your weapon and walk through the wall. Needless to say the Ambush changed in their favor. But outside of not using a normal ranged weapon, just walk through the wall. If ALL you can do is shoot arrows/bolt/pebbles then I guess hide untill the spell ends.
groveborn
04-09-07, 03:09 AM I would suggest having Enlarge cast on you, then throw large rocks or other loose objects. Alternately, if the Wall isn't too tall, just shoot at an angle upwards so it lands ON the wiz's head. Of course, if you could do that, it would indicate the wiz is pretty far away from the wall, so you can just walk though as was already suggested.

Also, try a portable drawbridge (don't know the actual term for that, but any large, heavy object would work). Or a ring..think stargate.
solbergb
04-09-07, 02:38 PM quickdraw and javelins works pretty well, especially with ranged weapon mastery (piercring).

failing that, a friendly druid to control winds (calm) on the area can shut that tactic down. Or get someone to transpose/dim door you to the other side of the wall (or above it or whatever) so you can fill the annoying caster full of arrows.
NobodyRemembersThis
04-09-07, 04:47 PM Another valid tactic is to Hold your action until the caster tries casting a spell and THEN plugging him full of arrows; Concentration checks are required if damage is dealt before/during casting (DC 10 + damage + spell level IIRC)
Toast_recon
04-09-07, 05:34 PM by throwing boulders, do you mean shrinking them to the size of pebbles, throwing them, then growing them? could you do that with a sling? Imagine it, a thousand people taking shrunken boulders, putting them in slings, and hurling them at, I don't know, the great wall of china! That is how you take over the world!:evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh
EDIT:obviously you need to unshrink them after you throw them. Imagine someone unshrinking it to early!
Derren S.
04-09-07, 06:30 PM Enlargeing a bolt in mid flight would screw the flight path big time. Don't expect to hit anything with such projectiles.

There is no reliable way to shoot through a winf wall. There are some abilities wich would allow that a few times per day like teh arcane archers phase arrow but nothing which would last longer than a full attack.
Ask your DM if he allows a enchantment for the bow which lets the arrows ignore wind.
Toast_recon
04-09-07, 06:37 PM hmmmm, I see what you mean about flight path. Perhaps there could be a compensation for it,so that you could hit on target in such a way, but with minus 1 on attack rolls for every 2 times heavier it is, so for thowing 20 lb rocks that turn into 120lb small boulders you would take a - 6 penalty since you have to aim higher and throw faster, etc, and also halve the range increment. Although, if you are attacking a wall, this would not be much of a penalty.
EDIT:how about a minus 2 penalty for every 2 times heavier, so you would take a minus 12 penalty.The great wall is most likely collosal though, so they would be more of a siege thing.
But the arrows could be the same way.
theotherdraxen
04-09-07, 06:53 PM Well, IMO, a good archer build is the Scout/Ranger+Greater Many Shot build. Anyway, assuming the spellcaster's AC isn't too high, a Splitting Bow and Greater Many Shot+Improved Many Shot (?) should get you a whole bunch of arrows, each of which have extra precision-based damage coming off of them. In fact, IIRC, you can get 4 arrows off at only a -2 penalty with that combo, plus 5d6 extra damage per arrow. You'll probably get 3 arrows through, for 15d6 precision damage plus your regular arrow damage and favored-enemy damage if applicable.

Edit: just read your post more clearly...you're already a scout ranger. So, just get Complete Scoundrel, Expanded Psionics Handbook, Races of Wild (I think, or Champions of Ruin) and Complete Warrior. Then, take the feat that lets your Scout levels stack with Ranger levels for Skirmish and Favored Enemy, fill out the Greater Many Shot feat tree, grab a Splitting Bow and you're good to go. This build is pretty powerful by itself, and will handle Wind-Wall by volume.
ClementWillowbreaker
04-09-07, 08:55 PM Easiest solution- get out of line of effect and wait 1 round/level. Alternately, make the inside of his Wind Wall inhospitable. Hell, just bull-rush him out of it. He isn't going to put up much resistance. Or just move to the other side or above if it is not an enclosure- you are archers, after all. You are supposed to be mobile. He has cast a spell that requires him to stay in a specific area. He has not eliminated your tactical advantage. He has traded his mobility to cancel your initiative. Take it back.
NobodyRemembersThis
04-09-07, 10:37 PM You could also really mess with him if you have shot on the run. Move through the wall, shoot, move back into the wall. Mess with him just as bad.
D.A.Dervish
04-09-07, 10:59 PM There is also the possibility of just being content with making the (probably) main threat in a supposedly tough fight waste a precious combat round just to decrease the threat you pose to him. You could also hope (quite probably not in vain) that he does not have Wind Wall memorized or chooses not to use it. It is after all a very unwieldy spell, and a standard action is most likely better used elsewhere.

Someone said something about readying an action to interrupt the spell, which is something I would also recommend.

May your arrows strike home.
Derren S.
04-10-07, 04:48 AM This build is pretty powerful by itself, and will handle Wind-Wall by volume.

Wind Wall does not work like protection from arrows which only blocks a limited amount of damage.
As long as wind wall lasts all arrows which go through it will be deflected no matter how many.
solbergb
04-10-07, 10:12 AM but not all thrown weapons. Hence the javelin suggestion, combined with weapon mastery piercing and quickdraw (which also increases javelin range)

Might as well make use of those stupid javelin slots in the quiver of ehlonna anyway.

Even splash weapons could discommode the caster some. nothing like tossing a tanglefoot bag and a few flasks of oil, setting him on fire, to annoy him...
PhaedrusXY
04-10-07, 10:22 AM but not all thrown weapons. Hence the javelin suggestion, combined with weapon mastery piercing and quickdraw (which also increases javelin range)

Might as well make use of those stupid javelin slots in the quiver of ehlonna anyway.

Even splash weapons could discommode the caster some. nothing like tossing a tanglefoot bag and a few flasks of oil, setting him on fire, to annoy him...Hmm... I thought only boulders and things could pass through, but after reviewing the spell, I see that I am wrong. This spell isn't that bad at all. The "archer" just needs to carry a few backup ranged weapons.
Arrows and bolts are deflected upward and miss, while any other normal ranged weapon passing through the wall has a 30% miss chance.
solbergb
04-10-07, 12:56 PM wind wall is effective, but it isn't a panacea. It's better against NPC mooks who don't have anything but projectile weapons as 90% of what they can do than vs a real PC archer, who likely in his career has also had to put up with being underwater, grappled, blinded, disarmed, etc and has learned how to cope.

Any PC who encounters more than an occasional foe that uses it will quickly come up with countermeasures. The best countermeasure is teamwork. Delay your full attack until a party member either removes the wall or moves you. Then kill the caster with your unobstructed full attack.
tarkin
04-10-07, 01:16 PM hmmmm, I see what you mean about flight path.

No. Not only can you not compensate for it, but it lands before you hit what you want.

Enlarging the object now means it weighs a lot.

It keeps the same momentum (unless your DM is an Anything Goes fool, that does not understand the concept of "instant weapon so powerfull it can kill a god")

So it's speed drops to almost nothing.

That is:

you take a 1 lb rock and through it at 100 mph (pretty good arm). Total momemntum is 100*1= 100 mph-lbs

It expands to 10 lbs. Now it travels at 10 mph. Total Mommentum is 10*10 = 100 mph-lbs. No change.

But traveling at 10 mph instead of 10 means it falls to the ground before it goes very far.
Toast_recon
04-10-07, 05:09 PM Ahhh yes, but it would have been a great plan if it worked.:(
hmmm, maybe you could have a psion propel it after it gains its weight.....thus defeating the thrower's purpose.:banghead: But what is stopping you from changing it while the stone is hitting him, thus crushing him. You could turn it into a dexterity check on whether you do it too soon or too late.
Still, lets not hijack the thread.;)
Vaelan
04-10-07, 06:38 PM But traveling at 10 mph instead of 10 means it falls to the ground before it goes very far.
Then it becomes a matter of figuring out when to dismiss the spell.

Shoot a bolt in a high arc, dismissing the Shrink spell just before it goes over the Wind Wall that the Wizard is standing right behind. It loses so much forward momentum that it hits the Wizard.

Normally you can't hit the Wizard when he is closer to the Wind Wall than you, but the sudden loss of forward momentum gets around that nicely.

I would assign hefty range penalties for trying this though, as, the way I understand it, the penalty mainly comes from having to shoot a rather challenging arc to get the necessary distance.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dygon470 04-08-07, 08:51 AM	Is there any way for an archer to bypass the spell wind wall? i can only think of a couple and they really would need to be dm approved as they are not RAW. Two enhancements i can think of are Blood Seeking, and Force. Are there any spells besides Dispel or the like that negate wind wall. This is kindof important because im an Scout/Ranger archer and my Dm's final boss is a Sor/Wiz.
sineous blackspell 04-08-07, 10:04 AM	i dont know what levels you are or what edition your playing but id say the passwall spell should make holes in it or perhaps you can fly over it change your size maybe? so your equipmet/arrows are larger
CookieFiend 04-08-07, 10:27 AM	Buy some ballista bolts and cast have a wiz cast shrink items for you so there the size of arrows. Then after firing them say the word that unshrinks them. Or there is some sort of bracers that lets you modify wind to protect you vs arrows and help yours fly better. If your dm lets you you could say the bracers and the wall negate each other.
primemover003 04-08-07, 10:51 AM	Beyond dispelling the wall your arrows aren't gonna do much at all. You either need to fly above the wizard and fire down on him or you need to switch to some thrown weapons (30% miss chance) like spears or javelins... or javelins of lightning! Sometime tactics dictate that you draw your melee weapon and use it too.
Fallenangel359 04-08-07, 03:27 PM	shrunken ballista bolts would actually work. Once they leave you, they unshrink, increasing their mass. throwing boulders always works...
Iver Gearsham 04-08-07, 03:27 PM	I recall Ricashay sp? a feat or chain of feats that let one shoot around corners that would let you get around the wall if there were space and suface to reflect off of.
Zuractai 04-08-07, 11:10 PM	I was running a quest, where at the end they were ambushed. One of the PC's got highest inititive, and then all of the people ambushing (All with Crossbows, and one with a Bow.) Player cast Wind wall, and they all fired (Doing nothing.) Answer, draw your weapon and walk through the wall. Needless to say the Ambush changed in their favor. But outside of not using a normal ranged weapon, just walk through the wall. If ALL you can do is shoot arrows/bolt/pebbles then I guess hide untill the spell ends.
groveborn 04-09-07, 03:09 AM	I would suggest having Enlarge cast on you, then throw large rocks or other loose objects. Alternately, if the Wall isn't too tall, just shoot at an angle upwards so it lands ON the wiz's head. Of course, if you could do that, it would indicate the wiz is pretty far away from the wall, so you can just walk though as was already suggested. Also, try a portable drawbridge (don't know the actual term for that, but any large, heavy object would work). Or a ring..think stargate.
solbergb 04-09-07, 02:38 PM	quickdraw and javelins works pretty well, especially with ranged weapon mastery (piercring). failing that, a friendly druid to control winds (calm) on the area can shut that tactic down. Or get someone to transpose/dim door you to the other side of the wall (or above it or whatever) so you can fill the annoying caster full of arrows.
NobodyRemembersThis 04-09-07, 04:47 PM	Another valid tactic is to Hold your action until the caster tries casting a spell and THEN plugging him full of arrows; Concentration checks are required if damage is dealt before/during casting (DC 10 + damage + spell level IIRC)
Toast_recon 04-09-07, 05:34 PM	by throwing boulders, do you mean shrinking them to the size of pebbles, throwing them, then growing them? could you do that with a sling? Imagine it, a thousand people taking shrunken boulders, putting them in slings, and hurling them at, I don't know, the great wall of china! That is how you take over the world!:evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh EDIT:obviously you need to unshrink them after you throw them. Imagine someone unshrinking it to early!
Derren S. 04-09-07, 06:30 PM	Enlargeing a bolt in mid flight would screw the flight path big time. Don't expect to hit anything with such projectiles. There is no reliable way to shoot through a winf wall. There are some abilities wich would allow that a few times per day like teh arcane archers phase arrow but nothing which would last longer than a full attack. Ask your DM if he allows a enchantment for the bow which lets the arrows ignore wind.
Toast_recon 04-09-07, 06:37 PM	hmmmm, I see what you mean about flight path. Perhaps there could be a compensation for it,so that you could hit on target in such a way, but with minus 1 on attack rolls for every 2 times heavier it is, so for thowing 20 lb rocks that turn into 120lb small boulders you would take a - 6 penalty since you have to aim higher and throw faster, etc, and also halve the range increment. Although, if you are attacking a wall, this would not be much of a penalty. EDIT:how about a minus 2 penalty for every 2 times heavier, so you would take a minus 12 penalty.The great wall is most likely collosal though, so they would be more of a siege thing. But the arrows could be the same way.
theotherdraxen 04-09-07, 06:53 PM	Well, IMO, a good archer build is the Scout/Ranger+Greater Many Shot build. Anyway, assuming the spellcaster's AC isn't too high, a Splitting Bow and Greater Many Shot+Improved Many Shot (?) should get you a whole bunch of arrows, each of which have extra precision-based damage coming off of them. In fact, IIRC, you can get 4 arrows off at only a -2 penalty with that combo, plus 5d6 extra damage per arrow. You'll probably get 3 arrows through, for 15d6 precision damage plus your regular arrow damage and favored-enemy damage if applicable. Edit: just read your post more clearly...you're already a scout ranger. So, just get Complete Scoundrel, Expanded Psionics Handbook, Races of Wild (I think, or Champions of Ruin) and Complete Warrior. Then, take the feat that lets your Scout levels stack with Ranger levels for Skirmish and Favored Enemy, fill out the Greater Many Shot feat tree, grab a Splitting Bow and you're good to go. This build is pretty powerful by itself, and will handle Wind-Wall by volume.
ClementWillowbreaker 04-09-07, 08:55 PM	Easiest solution- get out of line of effect and wait 1 round/level. Alternately, make the inside of his Wind Wall inhospitable. Hell, just bull-rush him out of it. He isn't going to put up much resistance. Or just move to the other side or above if it is not an enclosure- you are archers, after all. You are supposed to be mobile. He has cast a spell that requires him to stay in a specific area. He has not eliminated your tactical advantage. He has traded his mobility to cancel your initiative. Take it back.
NobodyRemembersThis 04-09-07, 10:37 PM	You could also really mess with him if you have shot on the run. Move through the wall, shoot, move back into the wall. Mess with him just as bad.
D.A.Dervish 04-09-07, 10:59 PM	There is also the possibility of just being content with making the (probably) main threat in a supposedly tough fight waste a precious combat round just to decrease the threat you pose to him. You could also hope (quite probably not in vain) that he does not have Wind Wall memorized or chooses not to use it. It is after all a very unwieldy spell, and a standard action is most likely better used elsewhere. Someone said something about readying an action to interrupt the spell, which is something I would also recommend. May your arrows strike home.
Derren S. 04-10-07, 04:48 AM	This build is pretty powerful by itself, and will handle Wind-Wall by volume. Wind Wall does not work like protection from arrows which only blocks a limited amount of damage. As long as wind wall lasts all arrows which go through it will be deflected no matter how many.
solbergb 04-10-07, 10:12 AM	but not all thrown weapons. Hence the javelin suggestion, combined with weapon mastery piercing and quickdraw (which also increases javelin range) Might as well make use of those stupid javelin slots in the quiver of ehlonna anyway. Even splash weapons could discommode the caster some. nothing like tossing a tanglefoot bag and a few flasks of oil, setting him on fire, to annoy him...
PhaedrusXY 04-10-07, 10:22 AM	but not all thrown weapons. Hence the javelin suggestion, combined with weapon mastery piercing and quickdraw (which also increases javelin range) Might as well make use of those stupid javelin slots in the quiver of ehlonna anyway. Even splash weapons could discommode the caster some. nothing like tossing a tanglefoot bag and a few flasks of oil, setting him on fire, to annoy him...Hmm... I thought only boulders and things could pass through, but after reviewing the spell, I see that I am wrong. This spell isn't that bad at all. The "archer" just needs to carry a few backup ranged weapons. Arrows and bolts are deflected upward and miss, while any other normal ranged weapon passing through the wall has a 30% miss chance.
solbergb 04-10-07, 12:56 PM	wind wall is effective, but it isn't a panacea. It's better against NPC mooks who don't have anything but projectile weapons as 90% of what they can do than vs a real PC archer, who likely in his career has also had to put up with being underwater, grappled, blinded, disarmed, etc and has learned how to cope. Any PC who encounters more than an occasional foe that uses it will quickly come up with countermeasures. The best countermeasure is teamwork. Delay your full attack until a party member either removes the wall or moves you. Then kill the caster with your unobstructed full attack.
tarkin 04-10-07, 01:16 PM	hmmmm, I see what you mean about flight path. No. Not only can you not compensate for it, but it lands before you hit what you want. Enlarging the object now means it weighs a lot. It keeps the same momentum (unless your DM is an Anything Goes fool, that does not understand the concept of "instant weapon so powerfull it can kill a god") So it's speed drops to almost nothing. That is: you take a 1 lb rock and through it at 100 mph (pretty good arm). Total momemntum is 1001= 100 mph-lbs It expands to 10 lbs. Now it travels at 10 mph. Total Mommentum is 1010 = 100 mph-lbs. No change. But traveling at 10 mph instead of 10 means it falls to the ground before it goes very far.
Toast_recon 04-10-07, 05:09 PM	Ahhh yes, but it would have been a great plan if it worked.:( hmmm, maybe you could have a psion propel it after it gains its weight.....thus defeating the thrower's purpose.:banghead: But what is stopping you from changing it while the stone is hitting him, thus crushing him. You could turn it into a dexterity check on whether you do it too soon or too late. Still, lets not hijack the thread.;)
Vaelan 04-10-07, 06:38 PM	But traveling at 10 mph instead of 10 means it falls to the ground before it goes very far. Then it becomes a matter of figuring out when to dismiss the spell. Shoot a bolt in a high arc, dismissing the Shrink spell just before it goes over the Wind Wall that the Wizard is standing right behind. It loses so much forward momentum that it hits the Wizard. Normally you can't hit the Wizard when he is closer to the Wind Wall than you, but the sudden loss of forward momentum gets around that nicely. I would assign hefty range penalties for trying this though, as, the way I understand it, the penalty mainly comes from having to shoot a rather challenging arc to get the necessary distance.