Are creatures immune to crits immune to burst? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Are creatures immune to crits immune to burst? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
frisbeet
11-12-03, 05:05 PM Rather than do a search, I ask anew. After all, the forum medium is as much about patient repetition as about new ideas. Thanks for any answer.

Are creatures immune to crits immune to burst?
Zherog
11-12-03, 05:27 PM From the SRD:

Magic Weapons and Critical Hits: Some weapon qualities and some specific weapons have an extra effect on a critical hit. This special effect functions against creatures not subject to critical hits, such as undead, elementals, and constructs. When fighting against such creatures, roll for critical hits as you would against humanoids or any other creature subject to critical hits. On a successful critical roll, apply the special effect, but do not multiply the weapon’s regular damage

Emphasis added.
Edymnion
11-12-03, 05:31 PM In 3.0, yes, creatures immune to critical hits are also immune to burst weapons.

In 3.5, no, abilities that function only on a crit still activate, even if the creature is immune to criticals.

3.5 means bursting weapons work on undead.
3.5 also means Vorpal works on characters wearing armor of Heavy Fortifications (as Vorpal is a critical activated ability, it still activates, and still takes heads, even through Heavy Fort).

Fear the Vorpal blade that goes snicker snack!
frisbeet
11-12-03, 05:34 PM thanks!
Hypersmurf
11-12-03, 07:45 PM In 3.0, yes, creatures immune to critical hits are also immune to burst weapons.

1. Explain the 3E Mace of Smiting, which destroys constructs with no save on a critical hit.
2. Explain the text in the 3E Vorpal description, describing how most undead and constructs are not bothered by losing their heads, but vampires are.

3.5 also means Vorpal works on characters wearing armor of Heavy Fortifications (as Vorpal is a critical activated ability, it still activates, and still takes heads, even through Heavy Fort).

Despite the Sage Advice chat answer, the text of the Fortification ability does not state that the wearer is immune to criticals; it says the property negates criticals.

If you confirm a critical against a zombie, the critical happens; the zombie is simply immune to it. Crit effects trigger.

If you confirm a critical against someone wearing armor of Heavy Fortification, there is a 100% chance that the critical will be negated. The critical, therefore, does not happen, and as written, critical effects (such as Burst or Vorpal) do not trigger.

Any time a Sage answer says something like "even though the book actually says something else", I'm very comfortable ignoring it.

-Hyp.
tarkin
11-12-03, 11:05 PM Hypersmurf, you may be comfortable ignoring the Sage, but that is not something you should be proud of. Frankly, unless you are DMing the game, what you are comfortable doing is meaningless. It is just your house rule. If you want to promote it, fine, but on these boards people are rarely not trying to find out what Hypersmurf's House Rules are, or even what Tarkin's House Rule is. (Bummer. Some of mine are so cool that everybody should hear them. )

The question is "In a game that strictly follows what WoTC says the rules are, what happens." And in those games (Gen Con, Living City, etc.), they do what the Sage tells them to.

If they don't like that, then they can change them. The fact that you don't like WoTC's Sage answers makes you a LESS valuable resource for someone that is trying to figure out what the official rules of the game (even if they are going to ignore the official rules.)

Note, this does not apply when the poster is asking about House Rules or what other people do - but in this case he is interested in the official rules.
bitnine
11-12-03, 11:26 PM Sage:
There has been considerable talk about projectile weapons imparting their special properties to weapons, but that's not what happens. Check out ranged weapons and ammunition on Page 183 of the DMG. The bonuses of, say, a magical bow and a magical arrow stack, but only the arrow's magic applies when the arrow actually hits.

SRD:
SRD: Shock weapons deal +1d6 points of bonus electricity damage on a successful hit. Bows, crossbows, and slings so enchanted bestow the electricity energy upon their ammunition.
Hypersmurf
11-13-03, 03:55 AM If they don't like that, then they can change them. The fact that you don't like WoTC's Sage answers makes you a LESS valuable resource for someone that is trying to figure out what the official rules of the game (even if they are going to ignore the official rules.)

Uh-huh. So, using the official FAQs, tell me whether a Medium creature without the EWP feat can use a Medium Bastard Sword in one hand, and at what penalty.

-Hyp.
Edymnion
11-13-03, 04:52 PM Originally posted by Hypersmurf
Uh-huh. So, using the official FAQs, tell me whether a Medium creature without the EWP feat can use a Medium Bastard Sword in one hand, and at what penalty. Well, by the rules as I understand them, it should be:

Using Weapon not sized for you: -2

As long as you have MWP (Bastard Sword), that it.
Greatsword is a 2-Handed weapon when sized for Medium creatures.
A Medium Greatsword is a 2-Handed weapon for Small creatures, and a 1-Handed weapon for Medium sized creatures.

Same goes for the Medium Bastard Sword. Its 1 handed for medium creatures, 2 handed for small creatures, or 1 handed for small creatures if they use an EWP on it.

If the medium sized weilder is not proficient in Bastard Sword, then the penalty is at -6, -2 for size and -4 for non-proficiency.
Hypersmurf
11-13-03, 05:06 PM Same goes for the Medium Bastard Sword. Its 1 handed for medium creatures, 2 handed for small creatures, or 1 handed for small creatures if they use an EWP on it.

Hmm?

A Medium Bastard Sword is a one-handed weapon for a Medium creature, but it requires special training to use in one hand (the EWP feat).

It can be used two-handed as a Martial Weapon, but it's still not a two-handed weapon in that case, it's a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, just as if you were holding a longsword in two hands.

Inappropriate Size doesn't come into it - the Medium wielder is of the appropriate size.

But if he doesn't have the EWP, can he use it in one hand?

-Hyp.
Zherog
11-13-03, 05:36 PM Originally posted by Hypersmurf
Hmm?

A Medium Bastard Sword is a one-handed weapon for a Medium creature, but it requires special training to use in one hand (the EWP feat).

It can be used two-handed as a Martial Weapon, but it's still not a two-handed weapon in that case, it's a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, just as if you were holding a longsword in two hands.

Inappropriate Size doesn't come into it - the Medium wielder is of the appropriate size.

But if he doesn't have the EWP, can he use it in one hand?

-Hyp.

Yes, he can use the weapon. He would be using it with a -4 penalty for non-proficiency though.
Hypersmurf
11-13-03, 05:43 PM Yes, he can use the weapon. He would be using it with a -4 penalty for non-proficiency though.

But the Official Answer in the Official FAQ from the Official People who answer Official Questions states, on p21:

"If you’re Medium-size, you have to be proficient with a bastard sword to use it in one hand; if you’re not proficient, you don’t have the option to use the sword one-handed at all."

(Of course, on p27, the Official Answer in the Official FAQ from the Official People who answer Official Questions states:

"A bastard sword is a Medium-Size weapon. It follows all the rules
for Medium-Size weapons, except that a Medium-Size creature
wielding the sword in one hand takes a –4 attack penalty with it
unless she has Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword).")

So which answer is Official? They both satisfy tarkin's requirement: "What WotC says the rules are". They both appear in the same FAQ.

What to do, what to do?

-Hyp.
bitnine
11-13-03, 05:46 PM Originally posted by Hypersmurf
What to do, what to do?

I demand that everyone follow both. At the same time!
Zherog
11-13-03, 05:46 PM Flip a coin. :D Or better still, roll d%. 01-50, you can use it. 51-00 you can't. :D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
frisbeet 11-12-03, 05:05 PM	Rather than do a search, I ask anew. After all, the forum medium is as much about patient repetition as about new ideas. Thanks for any answer. Are creatures immune to crits immune to burst?
Zherog 11-12-03, 05:27 PM	From the SRD: Magic Weapons and Critical Hits: Some weapon qualities and some specific weapons have an extra effect on a critical hit. This special effect functions against creatures not subject to critical hits, such as undead, elementals, and constructs. When fighting against such creatures, roll for critical hits as you would against humanoids or any other creature subject to critical hits. On a successful critical roll, apply the special effect, but do not multiply the weapon’s regular damage Emphasis added.
Edymnion 11-12-03, 05:31 PM	In 3.0, yes, creatures immune to critical hits are also immune to burst weapons. In 3.5, no, abilities that function only on a crit still activate, even if the creature is immune to criticals. 3.5 means bursting weapons work on undead. 3.5 also means Vorpal works on characters wearing armor of Heavy Fortifications (as Vorpal is a critical activated ability, it still activates, and still takes heads, even through Heavy Fort). Fear the Vorpal blade that goes snicker snack!
frisbeet 11-12-03, 05:34 PM	thanks!
Hypersmurf 11-12-03, 07:45 PM	In 3.0, yes, creatures immune to critical hits are also immune to burst weapons. 1. Explain the 3E Mace of Smiting, which destroys constructs with no save on a critical hit. 2. Explain the text in the 3E Vorpal description, describing how most undead and constructs are not bothered by losing their heads, but vampires are. 3.5 also means Vorpal works on characters wearing armor of Heavy Fortifications (as Vorpal is a critical activated ability, it still activates, and still takes heads, even through Heavy Fort). Despite the Sage Advice chat answer, the text of the Fortification ability does not state that the wearer is immune to criticals; it says the property negates criticals. If you confirm a critical against a zombie, the critical happens; the zombie is simply immune to it. Crit effects trigger. If you confirm a critical against someone wearing armor of Heavy Fortification, there is a 100% chance that the critical will be negated. The critical, therefore, does not happen, and as written, critical effects (such as Burst or Vorpal) do not trigger. Any time a Sage answer says something like "even though the book actually says something else", I'm very comfortable ignoring it. -Hyp.
tarkin 11-12-03, 11:05 PM	Hypersmurf, you may be comfortable ignoring the Sage, but that is not something you should be proud of. Frankly, unless you are DMing the game, what you are comfortable doing is meaningless. It is just your house rule. If you want to promote it, fine, but on these boards people are rarely not trying to find out what Hypersmurf's House Rules are, or even what Tarkin's House Rule is. (Bummer. Some of mine are so cool that everybody should hear them. ) The question is "In a game that strictly follows what WoTC says the rules are, what happens." And in those games (Gen Con, Living City, etc.), they do what the Sage tells them to. If they don't like that, then they can change them. The fact that you don't like WoTC's Sage answers makes you a LESS valuable resource for someone that is trying to figure out what the official rules of the game (even if they are going to ignore the official rules.) Note, this does not apply when the poster is asking about House Rules or what other people do - but in this case he is interested in the official rules.
bitnine 11-12-03, 11:26 PM	Sage: There has been considerable talk about projectile weapons imparting their special properties to weapons, but that's not what happens. Check out ranged weapons and ammunition on Page 183 of the DMG. The bonuses of, say, a magical bow and a magical arrow stack, but only the arrow's magic applies when the arrow actually hits. SRD: SRD: Shock weapons deal +1d6 points of bonus electricity damage on a successful hit. Bows, crossbows, and slings so enchanted bestow the electricity energy upon their ammunition.
Hypersmurf 11-13-03, 03:55 AM	If they don't like that, then they can change them. The fact that you don't like WoTC's Sage answers makes you a LESS valuable resource for someone that is trying to figure out what the official rules of the game (even if they are going to ignore the official rules.) Uh-huh. So, using the official FAQs, tell me whether a Medium creature without the EWP feat can use a Medium Bastard Sword in one hand, and at what penalty. -Hyp.
Edymnion 11-13-03, 04:52 PM	Originally posted by Hypersmurf Uh-huh. So, using the official FAQs, tell me whether a Medium creature without the EWP feat can use a Medium Bastard Sword in one hand, and at what penalty. Well, by the rules as I understand them, it should be: Using Weapon not sized for you: -2 As long as you have MWP (Bastard Sword), that it. Greatsword is a 2-Handed weapon when sized for Medium creatures. A Medium Greatsword is a 2-Handed weapon for Small creatures, and a 1-Handed weapon for Medium sized creatures. Same goes for the Medium Bastard Sword. Its 1 handed for medium creatures, 2 handed for small creatures, or 1 handed for small creatures if they use an EWP on it. If the medium sized weilder is not proficient in Bastard Sword, then the penalty is at -6, -2 for size and -4 for non-proficiency.
Hypersmurf 11-13-03, 05:06 PM	Same goes for the Medium Bastard Sword. Its 1 handed for medium creatures, 2 handed for small creatures, or 1 handed for small creatures if they use an EWP on it. Hmm? A Medium Bastard Sword is a one-handed weapon for a Medium creature, but it requires special training to use in one hand (the EWP feat). It can be used two-handed as a Martial Weapon, but it's still not a two-handed weapon in that case, it's a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, just as if you were holding a longsword in two hands. Inappropriate Size doesn't come into it - the Medium wielder is of the appropriate size. But if he doesn't have the EWP, can he use it in one hand? -Hyp.
Zherog 11-13-03, 05:36 PM	Originally posted by Hypersmurf Hmm? A Medium Bastard Sword is a one-handed weapon for a Medium creature, but it requires special training to use in one hand (the EWP feat). It can be used two-handed as a Martial Weapon, but it's still not a two-handed weapon in that case, it's a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, just as if you were holding a longsword in two hands. Inappropriate Size doesn't come into it - the Medium wielder is of the appropriate size. But if he doesn't have the EWP, can he use it in one hand? -Hyp. Yes, he can use the weapon. He would be using it with a -4 penalty for non-proficiency though.
Hypersmurf 11-13-03, 05:43 PM	Yes, he can use the weapon. He would be using it with a -4 penalty for non-proficiency though. But the Official Answer in the Official FAQ from the Official People who answer Official Questions states, on p21: "If you’re Medium-size, you have to be proficient with a bastard sword to use it in one hand; if you’re not proficient, you don’t have the option to use the sword one-handed at all." (Of course, on p27, the Official Answer in the Official FAQ from the Official People who answer Official Questions states: "A bastard sword is a Medium-Size weapon. It follows all the rules for Medium-Size weapons, except that a Medium-Size creature wielding the sword in one hand takes a –4 attack penalty with it unless she has Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword).") So which answer is Official? They both satisfy tarkin's requirement: "What WotC says the rules are". They both appear in the same FAQ. What to do, what to do? -Hyp.
bitnine 11-13-03, 05:46 PM	Originally posted by Hypersmurf What to do, what to do? I demand that everyone follow both. At the same time!
Zherog 11-13-03, 05:46 PM	Flip a coin. :D Or better still, roll d%. 01-50, you can use it. 51-00 you can't. :D