Are dispel checks caster level checks? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Are dispel checks caster level checks? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TheCobra
03-25-08, 04:43 PM I've seen a number of folks using Arcane Mastery with dispel magic and the like. However, the rules seem to distinguish between dispel checks and caster level checks.

Thoughts?
Kouk
03-25-08, 10:49 PM Dispel checks are very similar to Caster Level checks, but not quite the same thing.

Just using Arcane Mastery should not affect your Dispel Check (see descriptions for Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic), though it may help you get through any Spell Resistance that your opponent has on a normal basis (Dispel Magic is not subject to SR normally).
TheCobra
04-25-08, 08:05 PM I'd welcome other opinions here. I know folks in CharOp boards, for example, think Arcane Mastery works on dispel checks.
BugHunter
04-25-08, 08:44 PM I'd welcome other opinions here. I know folks in CharOp boards, for example, think Arcane Mastery works on dispel checks.

After reading the definition of Caster Level Check in the Rules Compendium on page 31 , Arcane Mastery can be used on dispel checks. That being said you still must follow the rules for taking 10 on a skill check.
CantripN
04-25-08, 08:44 PM Dispel Checks ARE Caster Level Checks. As you say, we at CO agree on this, as does CustServ.
NoldorForce
04-25-08, 09:51 PM Most but not all dispel checks are also caster level checks. Nearly every effect that uses the former calls them out as the latter, but the epic Dispel seed actually doesn't use your caster level at all and thus isn't a CL check to be enhanced by Orange Ioun Stones, Arcane Mastery, and the like.

For the record, the Rules Compendium notes that the specific dispel check used by Dispel Magic is a caster level check, not that all of them are. That means that any spells which inherit from Dispel Magic, in addition to any spells or effects that use similar CL-based mechanics, are dispel checks. It does not mean, however, that the entirely different dispel check used by the Dispel seed is.

(Interestingly, that same section along with a passage on page 86 allows for staffs to be operated with a CL based on your UMD check. So stafficers are workable after all.)
Dheran
04-25-08, 10:18 PM Dispel Checks ARE Caster Level Checks.
I've got to disagree. Certain bonuses apply to dispel checks, after the caster level computation is done. Example: the Clerical Inquisition domain grants a +4 bonus to all dispel checks. You can max out your caster level for the particular spell you're using, and then add 4.
NoldorForce
04-25-08, 10:51 PM I've got to disagree. Certain bonuses apply to dispel checks, after the caster level computation is done. Example: the Clerical Inquisition domain grants a +4 bonus to all dispel checks. You can max out your caster level for the particular spell you're using, and then add 4.How does that alter any of the arguments here? That doesn't change any given dispel check's nature as a CL check (or not, as above). For instance, there are a number of things that boost initiative checks. But in the very definition of initiative checks, the text (both the SRD and the Rules Compendium) states that initiative checks are Dexterity checks.
groveborn
04-26-08, 12:28 AM This is a square vs. rectangle argument. A square is a rectangle, but a rectangle isn't necessarily a square.

Dispel checks are always caster level checks. Apply all bonuses to caster level, as well as all bonuses to dispel checks. For caster level checks, only use caster level bonuses. Oh, for both also use your caster levels!
NoldorForce
04-26-08, 01:38 PM Prove the "always" part; is this a consequence of the way the dispel checks themselves work or something else? Again, I'll note that the Dispel seed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/dispel.htm) does not employ one's caster level at all.

Come to think of it, I recall some argument earlier about this with you - groveborn - where I'd asserted that dispel checks were CL checks, arguing from the text of Dispel Magic (AFAIK). But after looking at the Dispel seed, it seems that most but not all dispel checks are also CL checks.
GalaGalaxia
04-26-08, 01:49 PM Let's not bring Epic into the mix. We all know that once you hit epic, everything changes from the norm.

For sake of simplicity:
Dispel checks are ALWAYS caster level checks
Good saves are ALWAYS (class level / 2) + 2
Poor saves are ALWAYS class level / 3
"Warrior" classes ALWAYS have a BAB equal to class level

We all know that these four are true ... until you hit epic. But that was hardly what the question was about now, was it.

So, to reiterate -- a dispel check is always a caster level check.

(For what it's worth -- you could argue that the dispel seed is indeed a caster level check anyway, since you roll against the caster level of whoever cast the spell or created the item ... but let's not open that can now.)
groveborn
04-26-08, 10:29 PM Prove the "always" part; is this a consequence of the way the dispel checks themselves work or something else? Again, I'll note that the Dispel seed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/dispel.htm) does not employ one's caster level at all.

Come to think of it, I recall some argument earlier about this with you - groveborn - where I'd asserted that dispel checks were CL checks, arguing from the text of Dispel Magic (AFAIK). But after looking at the Dispel seed, it seems that most but not all dispel checks are also CL checks.

If you would read page 305 in the PHB you'd read:

caster level check: A roll of 1d20 + the caster level (in the relevent class). If the result equals or exceeds he DC (or the spell resistance, in the case of caster level checks made for spell resistance), the check succeeds.

There is also an entry for dispel checks, which mirror this, noting that the DC is 11 + the opposing caster. Dispel checks merely provide the DC already.

There is no difference aside from the limitations between dispel checks and caster level checks. They're just a sub-category, or a very specific type of caster level check. If you can find evidence in 3.5 material to counterdict me, I'd be more than happy to read it. I just haven't found any myself.

I also believe that the argument you refer to was a question I myself posted regarding them, as I had, at the time, had no experience in using them. Also remember that Epic stuff hasn't been well updated to 3.5 rules, and it is easy to find discrepancies. Just look at the Demi-lich entry, under its immunity to magic. Yeesh.
Vintar
04-27-08, 12:26 PM I'm going to have to weigh in on the side of no. The book specifically calls for caster level check to bypass SR, but specifically calls dispelling a dispel check.

It is true that dispel and caster level checks are figured out the same way except for miscellaneous bonuses. However, by that same logic things that up one's attack roll should also up one's grapple check as they are the same except for the miscellaneous bonuses of weapon/feat/size. Therefore quickened true strikes and the like would make gishes the ultimate grapplers - which I don't think that anyone would argue.
GalaGalaxia
04-27-08, 03:15 PM A grapple is an attack ...
A turn undead is a CHA check ...
A dispel check is a caster level check ...
Attack, CHA checks, and caster level checks are all actions ...

But not all actions are attacks; neither are all actions CHA checks, nor caster level checks ...
Not all caster level checks are dispel checks ...
Not all CHA checks are turn undead ...
Not all attacks are grapples ...

Or, are you saying you would not allow a cleric to get a boost to his turn undead from a skill/feat/item that grants a bonus to "CHA checks"?
Or, are you likewise saying that you would not let a caster get a bonus to his dispel checks from a skill/feat/item that grants a bonus to his caster level checks?
... or a fighter get a bonus to his grapple checks from something that gives a generic bonus to attacks?
GalaGalaxia
05-03-08, 01:10 AM For anyone who might stumble upon this thread in the future ... The Rules Compendium explicitly states that a dispel check falls under caster level checks. (RC p31)
Omen_of_Peace
05-03-08, 08:19 AM If you say a grapple is an attack in the sense that it will break invisibility I agree. But grapple checks are not attack rolls. (They're like attack rolls - similar but not a subset)

As far as I can tell most answers are right : NoldorForce is simply adding epic rules to the mix, which other posters don't consider.
GalaGalaxia
05-03-08, 02:34 PM Incorrect. A grapple is an attack as it is initiated through a touch attack.
Then comes the grapple check to see if you are able to hold on to them.
The only difference between a grapple and a normal attack is that the grapple can continue for several rounds.

Again, Rules Compendium: "Starting a grapple is an attack."
Omen_of_Peace
05-04-08, 02:18 PM Funny: we find ourselves in the same situation as other posters in the thread - not really disagreeing but arguing anyway.
- Starting a grapple is definitely an attack/an attack roll
- "A grapple is an attack" is extremely vague. Possible meanings : 1) You can use the 'start to grapple' action in place of the attack action (I now understand this is what you probably meant) 2) A grapple breaks invisibility ;)
- It's not the only difference... but you know it. :) Lots more paragraphs about it in the Rules Compendium.
GalaGalaxia
05-04-08, 04:58 PM Mainly I included it because it is listed under "special attacks" in PH
NoldorForce
05-05-08, 10:54 PM For anyone who might stumble upon this thread in the future ... The Rules Compendium explicitly states that a dispel check falls under caster level checks. (RC p31)Not quite. It instead states that the dispel check used by Dispel Magic is a CL check. So anything that either functions with similar mechanics or that emulates Dispel Magic directly (like every single dispelling spell out there) would also use a CL check. This does not necessarily imply that all dispel checks are CL checks, but rather that all dispel checks that employ CL in their calculations are CL checks. (I've mentioned the Dispel seed as a case in which CL is NOT used at all; in theory, there might be some non-epic examples as well, especially in prestige classes.)
GalaGalaxia
05-06-08, 11:45 AM The Dispel Seed is epic. Let's not mix apples and oranges, even though they are all fruit. Core, aside from epic, all "normal" dispel checks are caster level checks. That's all that was asked, and that's all the answer should be.

You have made your point about the Dispel Seed. The epic seed is an exception to the rule. The same would go for any other abilities (such as the Argent Savant's ability to dispel force effects). All those are exceptions.

Dispel Check == Caster Level Check

If, for some reason, caster level is not used in the calculation, that particular instance is an exception.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheCobra 03-25-08, 04:43 PM	I've seen a number of folks using Arcane Mastery with dispel magic and the like. However, the rules seem to distinguish between dispel checks and caster level checks. Thoughts?
Kouk 03-25-08, 10:49 PM	Dispel checks are very similar to Caster Level checks, but not quite the same thing. Just using Arcane Mastery should not affect your Dispel Check (see descriptions for Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic), though it may help you get through any Spell Resistance that your opponent has on a normal basis (Dispel Magic is not subject to SR normally).
TheCobra 04-25-08, 08:05 PM	I'd welcome other opinions here. I know folks in CharOp boards, for example, think Arcane Mastery works on dispel checks.
BugHunter 04-25-08, 08:44 PM	I'd welcome other opinions here. I know folks in CharOp boards, for example, think Arcane Mastery works on dispel checks. After reading the definition of Caster Level Check in the Rules Compendium on page 31 , Arcane Mastery can be used on dispel checks. That being said you still must follow the rules for taking 10 on a skill check.
CantripN 04-25-08, 08:44 PM	Dispel Checks ARE Caster Level Checks. As you say, we at CO agree on this, as does CustServ.
NoldorForce 04-25-08, 09:51 PM	Most but not all dispel checks are also caster level checks. Nearly every effect that uses the former calls them out as the latter, but the epic Dispel seed actually doesn't use your caster level at all and thus isn't a CL check to be enhanced by Orange Ioun Stones, Arcane Mastery, and the like. For the record, the Rules Compendium notes that the specific dispel check used by Dispel Magic is a caster level check, not that all of them are. That means that any spells which inherit from Dispel Magic, in addition to any spells or effects that use similar CL-based mechanics, are dispel checks. It does not mean, however, that the entirely different dispel check used by the Dispel seed is. (Interestingly, that same section along with a passage on page 86 allows for staffs to be operated with a CL based on your UMD check. So stafficers are workable after all.)
Dheran 04-25-08, 10:18 PM	Dispel Checks ARE Caster Level Checks. I've got to disagree. Certain bonuses apply to dispel checks, after the caster level computation is done. Example: the Clerical Inquisition domain grants a +4 bonus to all dispel checks. You can max out your caster level for the particular spell you're using, and then add 4.
NoldorForce 04-25-08, 10:51 PM	I've got to disagree. Certain bonuses apply to dispel checks, after the caster level computation is done. Example: the Clerical Inquisition domain grants a +4 bonus to all dispel checks. You can max out your caster level for the particular spell you're using, and then add 4.How does that alter any of the arguments here? That doesn't change any given dispel check's nature as a CL check (or not, as above). For instance, there are a number of things that boost initiative checks. But in the very definition of initiative checks, the text (both the SRD and the Rules Compendium) states that initiative checks are Dexterity checks.
groveborn 04-26-08, 12:28 AM	This is a square vs. rectangle argument. A square is a rectangle, but a rectangle isn't necessarily a square. Dispel checks are always caster level checks. Apply all bonuses to caster level, as well as all bonuses to dispel checks. For caster level checks, only use caster level bonuses. Oh, for both also use your caster levels!
NoldorForce 04-26-08, 01:38 PM	Prove the "always" part; is this a consequence of the way the dispel checks themselves work or something else? Again, I'll note that the Dispel seed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/dispel.htm) does not employ one's caster level at all. Come to think of it, I recall some argument earlier about this with you - groveborn - where I'd asserted that dispel checks were CL checks, arguing from the text of Dispel Magic (AFAIK). But after looking at the Dispel seed, it seems that most but not all dispel checks are also CL checks.
GalaGalaxia 04-26-08, 01:49 PM	Let's not bring Epic into the mix. We all know that once you hit epic, everything changes from the norm. For sake of simplicity: Dispel checks are ALWAYS caster level checks Good saves are ALWAYS (class level / 2) + 2 Poor saves are ALWAYS class level / 3 "Warrior" classes ALWAYS have a BAB equal to class level We all know that these four are true ... until you hit epic. But that was hardly what the question was about now, was it. So, to reiterate -- a dispel check is always a caster level check. (For what it's worth -- you could argue that the dispel seed is indeed a caster level check anyway, since you roll against the caster level of whoever cast the spell or created the item ... but let's not open that can now.)
groveborn 04-26-08, 10:29 PM	Prove the "always" part; is this a consequence of the way the dispel checks themselves work or something else? Again, I'll note that the Dispel seed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/dispel.htm) does not employ one's caster level at all. Come to think of it, I recall some argument earlier about this with you - groveborn - where I'd asserted that dispel checks were CL checks, arguing from the text of Dispel Magic (AFAIK). But after looking at the Dispel seed, it seems that most but not all dispel checks are also CL checks. If you would read page 305 in the PHB you'd read: caster level check: A roll of 1d20 + the caster level (in the relevent class). If the result equals or exceeds he DC (or the spell resistance, in the case of caster level checks made for spell resistance), the check succeeds. There is also an entry for dispel checks, which mirror this, noting that the DC is 11 + the opposing caster. Dispel checks merely provide the DC already. There is no difference aside from the limitations between dispel checks and caster level checks. They're just a sub-category, or a very specific type of caster level check. If you can find evidence in 3.5 material to counterdict me, I'd be more than happy to read it. I just haven't found any myself. I also believe that the argument you refer to was a question I myself posted regarding them, as I had, at the time, had no experience in using them. Also remember that Epic stuff hasn't been well updated to 3.5 rules, and it is easy to find discrepancies. Just look at the Demi-lich entry, under its immunity to magic. Yeesh.
Vintar 04-27-08, 12:26 PM	I'm going to have to weigh in on the side of no. The book specifically calls for caster level check to bypass SR, but specifically calls dispelling a dispel check. It is true that dispel and caster level checks are figured out the same way except for miscellaneous bonuses. However, by that same logic things that up one's attack roll should also up one's grapple check as they are the same except for the miscellaneous bonuses of weapon/feat/size. Therefore quickened true strikes and the like would make gishes the ultimate grapplers - which I don't think that anyone would argue.
GalaGalaxia 04-27-08, 03:15 PM	A grapple is an attack ... A turn undead is a CHA check ... A dispel check is a caster level check ... Attack, CHA checks, and caster level checks are all actions ... But not all actions are attacks; neither are all actions CHA checks, nor caster level checks ... Not all caster level checks are dispel checks ... Not all CHA checks are turn undead ... Not all attacks are grapples ... Or, are you saying you would not allow a cleric to get a boost to his turn undead from a skill/feat/item that grants a bonus to "CHA checks"? Or, are you likewise saying that you would not let a caster get a bonus to his dispel checks from a skill/feat/item that grants a bonus to his caster level checks? ... or a fighter get a bonus to his grapple checks from something that gives a generic bonus to attacks?
GalaGalaxia 05-03-08, 01:10 AM	For anyone who might stumble upon this thread in the future ... The Rules Compendium explicitly states that a dispel check falls under caster level checks. (RC p31)
Omen_of_Peace 05-03-08, 08:19 AM	If you say a grapple is an attack in the sense that it will break invisibility I agree. But grapple checks are not attack rolls. (They're like attack rolls - similar but not a subset) As far as I can tell most answers are right : NoldorForce is simply adding epic rules to the mix, which other posters don't consider.
GalaGalaxia 05-03-08, 02:34 PM	Incorrect. A grapple is an attack as it is initiated through a touch attack. Then comes the grapple check to see if you are able to hold on to them. The only difference between a grapple and a normal attack is that the grapple can continue for several rounds. Again, Rules Compendium: "Starting a grapple is an attack."
Omen_of_Peace 05-04-08, 02:18 PM	Funny: we find ourselves in the same situation as other posters in the thread - not really disagreeing but arguing anyway. - Starting a grapple is definitely an attack/an attack roll - "A grapple is an attack" is extremely vague. Possible meanings : 1) You can use the 'start to grapple' action in place of the attack action (I now understand this is what you probably meant) 2) A grapple breaks invisibility ;) - It's not the only difference... but you know it. :) Lots more paragraphs about it in the Rules Compendium.
GalaGalaxia 05-04-08, 04:58 PM	Mainly I included it because it is listed under "special attacks" in PH
NoldorForce 05-05-08, 10:54 PM	For anyone who might stumble upon this thread in the future ... The Rules Compendium explicitly states that a dispel check falls under caster level checks. (RC p31)Not quite. It instead states that the dispel check used by Dispel Magic is a CL check. So anything that either functions with similar mechanics or that emulates Dispel Magic directly (like every single dispelling spell out there) would also use a CL check. This does not necessarily imply that all dispel checks are CL checks, but rather that all dispel checks that employ CL in their calculations are CL checks. (I've mentioned the Dispel seed as a case in which CL is NOT used at all; in theory, there might be some non-epic examples as well, especially in prestige classes.)
GalaGalaxia 05-06-08, 11:45 AM	The Dispel Seed is epic. Let's not mix apples and oranges, even though they are all fruit. Core, aside from epic, all "normal" dispel checks are caster level checks. That's all that was asked, and that's all the answer should be. You have made your point about the Dispel Seed. The epic seed is an exception to the rule. The same would go for any other abilities (such as the Argent Savant's ability to dispel force effects). All those are exceptions. Dispel Check == Caster Level Check If, for some reason, caster level is not used in the calculation, that particular instance is an exception.