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| nnnnn02-16-06, 06:54 PM | I can't figure out if these spells are any good. Anyone with experience using them in a game please give your impressions. Reading the descriptions, the monsters you get don't seem to be all that powerful or helpful in a combat considering the foes you'll be facing at that level. And Monster Summoning I is just a joke. It's useless at first level because it only lasts for 1 round. I just can't see how that will help. By the time you are powerful enough to get a few rounds of use out of the monster, MS-I is utterly useless to you anyway because the summoned monster so weak compared to your foes. Can someone explain any effective uses of Monster Summoning I, especially at very low caster levels? nnnnn |
| Shaudes2902-16-06, 07:32 PM | there are a number of feats that can make your sumoned cretures more dangerous. even with out the feats the summon spells are best used to summon multipel monsters from up to 2 levels lower than the summons spell. thay can be placed to get automatic flanking, and often full atack options teh round thay are summoned. A great way to threaten spellcasters and archers you cant reach. If a pristege class oriented around summoning is used it can be even better. The badger and all of its vaiants from celestial to dire can be verry efective. Having acsses to flying creatures can be helpfull too. Beware of PF spells as that can completly negate the efectivnes of summoned monsters. |
| Darius Silverbolt02-16-06, 09:37 PM | I am with you when it comes to SM 1 and being first level. There are better options most of the time. Summon Spell in general are good. I Start slotting the Summon monster spell around 5th level but I admit my favorite one in mid level games in SM V with the hound archon. Good damage reduction so he is hard to kill. Magic Circle vs Evil is always nice to have on the battle field. Aura of menace is nice. The Hound archon has a sword so he can get threw the Prot from good spells. (but not magic circle). I take Augmented summoning from the players handbook cause I use a lot of combat conjeration spells which means I am taking Spell Focus Conj. anyways. The fact that summon spell creatures provide extra attackers/giving flanking/soak HP damage for th party makes them useful. |
| Polaris02-16-06, 09:46 PM | Are Summoning Spells any good? Generally NO. That said, there are cases where you can find use out of them. For example, a Druid using Nature's summoning IV+ can summon unicorns which greatly increase the amount of healing available to the party. Other summons should be used IMHO in much the same way or as cheap cannon fodder (often to set up flanks). Yes, Summons can be improved with feats, but it takes at least two feats and more often three (Spell Focus: Conj, Augment Summon, Rapid Spell) to make them even marginally worthwhile....the ONE ROUND casting time is a real killer (and makes it more difficult to set up your creatures tactically...and much easier to disrupt). In short in most cases, you can get more milage with other appraochs especially CALLING spells (like Gate). Summons simply don't provide enough bang for the buck by the time you get them for any given CR. -Polaris |
| Archtyrant Terevoth02-16-06, 10:39 PM | Summon monster isn't a combat spell, it's a buff spell that you cast before combat. Basically you get recon, from your rogue scouting ahead, a wizard eye spell or whatever, and you stop before the door to a room and start summoning stuff like crazy. |
| Polaris02-16-06, 11:08 PM | Summon monster isn't a combat spell, it's a buff spell that you cast before combat. Basically you get recon, from your rogue scouting ahead, a wizard eye spell or whatever, and you stop before the door to a room and start summoning stuff like crazy. Not with a duration of 1 round per level you don't! There are many other and better buffing spells you can cast if you want to ruin your suprise with a verbal spell. Better yet, most of these are one minute per level spells so you don't have to be right next to the door to get any use out of them. A 1round/level spell pretty much has to be used in combat (and as you just admitted it's a sucky combat spell). 1 round/level spells are also pretty much useless for scouting as well. -Polaris |
| The WarOverlord02-16-06, 11:19 PM | I can't figure out if these spells are any good. Anyone with experience using them in a game please give your impressions. Reading the descriptions, the monsters you get don't seem to be all that powerful or helpful in a combat considering the foes you'll be facing at that level. And Monster Summoning I is just a joke. It's useless at first level because it only lasts for 1 round. I just can't see how that will help. By the time you are powerful enough to get a few rounds of use out of the monster, MS-I is utterly useless to you anyway because the summoned monster so weak compared to your foes. Can someone explain any effective uses of Monster Summoning I, especially at very low caster levels? nnnnn I personally Like Monster Summoning IV, especially when Giant Spiders are called, and When VII Brings Elementals. Like "Elemental Storm" as a "on death, repeat" summoning Spell and Casting Protection from Evil then using "Gate" to bring in a Demon is almost Always Devistating. Now, as you can see I did not mention Monster Summoning 1-3 cause for me you are better off having Animal companions and Familiars (or Charming Animals) at low level that won't fickly be unsummoned or die so Easily |
| Lomiat02-16-06, 11:26 PM | Summon Monster spells are good: Strengths: Unparalleled versatility, Ability to add: Attackers, Flankers, Defenders, Trapfinders (incidental), Retrieval Agents, etc., (in general) Bodies to Direct with Your Party's Best Tactics Weaknesses: Long casting time, Low damage output/Initial power potential versus other spells of their level I used to be in the school of thought with those arguing that Summon spells were too weak since they were summoning creatures increasingly outpaced by character level, but I've played through a couple situations lately that had me changing my mind: 1) My wizard's party was fighting a Beholder. I'd gone Invisible and Dim Doored away from our entrance to the other side of the Beholder, but I had (stupidly) neglected to position myself close enough to a corner to cast a spell and move 30 ft to get around the corner, forcing the Orb to choose to come after me or attack my companions. Thus, I chose not to attack and, instead, summoned a creature. The creature did some damage to the Beholder that I would not have, and then it flew into another room and alerted the next monster ("triggered" the next combat). Any of our party who had walked into the room would have been in trouble. Instead, the beast took the damage, dealt some out, and generally gave us a chance to prepare to face the monster instead of getting ambushed. 2) A better situation. We spotted an enemy scouting party, Orcs and Winter Wolves, before they spotted us. Combat was imminent, so I cast Summon Monster V and got 3 Fiendish Dire Wolves. They helped us chase down the remnants of the orcs after scattering a few on the first round. 3) An even better situation. A large feral beast, of the type that has a huge damage output and high hit points, was stalking our party. Thanks to some obscenely high Spot checks, we noticed it in time for me to summon a couple of Dire Wolves, 2 this time, to put between it and us. I managed to Haste the Dire Wolves along with the party before I had them attack. One actually managed to trip the big, bad monster, and our Enlarged fighter ran up and smacked it from a distance for 40-some HP. Between the two wolves and the fighter, we dropped it less than halfway through the first full round of combat (after our surprise round). The fact that the big, bad monster got tripped prevented it from doing a single point of damage to our party. |
| shadowfoot66602-16-06, 11:30 PM | i played a wizard who casted 95% conjuration (summoning) spells for 17 levels in Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. By 10th lvl the DM was having to up his encounter levels by 2 just for my character. Now in our games nobody even casts summon monster spells anymore because everyone else thinks they are to powerful. the secret to summon spells is having the proper list. switch out the creatures give on the PH list for other extraplanar creatures of the same CR. |
| Polaris02-16-06, 11:31 PM | That's just it though. Against a beholder, summon is about the worst thing you can do. Not only are you a target for all the eye-stalks, but the central eye will make your summons go away. What's worse, pretty much ANY summon can be defeated with a simply first level spell: Protection from X. CALLING is great (and Gate is a varient of a calling spell), but even as speedbumps, Summon sucks. The summons are so low in their CR by the time you can cast them, that any reasonable encounter can kill them all in a single action (or at worst one action per critter). Like anything else, you CAN find a use for Summon spells, but they are not worth memorizing as a cleric and Druids seldom use them even when they can spontaneously cast them. -Polaris |
| Polaris02-16-06, 11:33 PM | Shadowfoot, Then your DM was an Idiot. Protection against Good or better yet, Circle against Good. Presto, your summons are useless. That's only one way. -Polaris |
| Feyd Rautha02-16-06, 11:42 PM | You'll find that the druid's "Summon Nature's Ally" list underwent a major upgrade from 3.0 to 3.5. As a result they are the best summoners out there because of the power they can bring to bear. Even at low levels the power of their summons is respectable. Just look at some of the "Druid Optimization" threads to get an idea. Yes, a wolf may not sound like much when your party is level 5, but a single summoned wolf can really turn the tide of a battle at level 3. Also, it gives the PC a mode of attack that often rises above his or her party's abilities at that level. Take for example the SNAII Hippogriff. At 3rd and 4th level there's probably zero chance your party will have some way to commit to an aerial combat. Drop a SNAII Hippogriff on the battlemat however and you have a flier that can chase down virtually any flying creature and hit with some pretty respectable attacks (again for that level). The same thing can be said for the SNAIII Thoqqua. There's a saying that I hold to... Any problem in DnD can be solved by a varying number of Thoqquas. Need through that door? The Thoqqua can get through it! Need to get through that creature's DR, but don't have the appropriate materials? The Thoqqua can do more damage with it's body heat than it's strike! Starving and have no fuel to make a fire? Thoqqua's make great hotplates! As you rise in level the spells just get more effective, but require you to realize it (it's harder to realize that 1d4+1 dire apes could be more effective than an empowered flamestrike than you think). I play Living Greyhawk and there are times where I am thumbing through my spells and then realize that if I just burned say a Baleful Polymorph I can get 1d3 Dire Lions. Add to that the fact that 4th level and up summons are always useful because of the summoning boost to end all summoning boosts...Animal Growth...and it's a win-win situation. Anyway... just some thoughts as I sit here with a slight case of sleeplessness ;) Feyd |
| Polaris02-17-06, 12:17 AM | Feyd, I will certainly agree wholeheartedly that the Druid is hands down the best summoner in the game. However, when a person asks me, "Are Monster Summoning Spells Any Good?" I take that to mean, "Is it worth it to memorize a Monster Summoning spell?" That answer is an unequivacable NO except under very specific circumstances. For the same reason, it isn't worth it for a Sorcerer to have this as a "known spell" (nor a Favored Soul). That said, you can optimize anything (and the Char Op people take it as a challenge to do just that). The thing about the Druid is that the Druid doesn't have to make this choice! The Druid doesn't have to (and shouldn't!) memorize a single Summon Nature Ally spell. However, it is something the Druid can pull out whenver these rare situations occure. Take the Hippogriff situation: It's true that 3rd level parties have extreme difficulty handling flying encounters. The problem is that SNAII will summon one hippogriff (IF the druid gets it off) for all of three rounds. Given the difficulties of Aerial Maneuvering, the party might be just as well off hitting the creature with ranged attacks. The long casting time and pitiful duration and completel EASE with which a common first level spell (Protection from X) completely voids them, are the achilles heel to all summoning spells (another reason calls are so much better). By the time a summon lasts long enough to be useful, it is too weak to make any difference....unless it has a property you need (i.e. a special case). -Polaris |
| Vanity_Kills02-17-06, 12:29 AM | Personally, I love summoning spells, and Summon Monster is one of my faves. You can use it great with Rogues for flankablity, and as a 'ignore me and go for the moster' tactic |
| Polaris02-17-06, 12:39 AM | Personally, I love summoning spells, and Summon Monster is one of my faves. You can use it great with Rogues for flankablity, and as a 'ignore me and go for the moster' tactic That only works if the target doesn't have Prot from X or Circle against X. Also most intelligent encounters will either: 1. Ignore the summon (esp with Prot from X) 2. Kill all the summons quickly (one AoE at the encounter level will likely do it....and so will one Dispell Magic with high likelyhood since enemy caster levels are generally higher than party caster levels). As for Prot from X, it should be so common as to be virtually routine since it is on the spell list of virtually all casting classes (and in fact I think IS on the list for all casting classes) so at worst they'd use it as a wand...and Circle from X is also extremely common. -Polaris |
| Vanity_Kills02-17-06, 12:48 AM | That only works if the target doesn't have Prot from X or Circle against X. Also most intelligent encounters will either: 1. Ignore the summon (esp with Prot from X) 2. Kill all the summons quickly (one AoE at the encounter level will likely do it....and so will one Dispell Magic with high likelyhood since enemy caster levels are generally higher than party caster levels). As for Prot from X, it should be so common as to be virtually routine since it is on the spell list of virtually all casting classes (and in fact I think IS on the list for all casting classes) so at worst they'd use it as a wand...and Circle from X is also extremely common. -Polaris ^ ^;; Well, it helps that I'm dating the DM...but oinr AoE? Not if you use the overwhelm tactic, just make some scrolls of summon Monster *roman numeral*. It usually works for me. |
| ScipioX02-17-06, 12:55 AM | I think summons can be very powerful. Our 8th level party's druid summons dire wolves. Those suckers are ridiculously powerful. Can trip most foes, do decent damage, and usually soak a lot of HP's. Sure, they don't work too well against spell casters cause they have PfE and dispel. But they work great against most monsters, especially unintelligent ones who will attack them instead of the PC's. |
| Polaris02-17-06, 02:20 AM | ^ ^;; Well, it helps that I'm dating the DM...but oinr AoE? Not if you use the overwhelm tactic, just make some scrolls of summon Monster *roman numeral*. It usually works for me. It still takes one round to cast this spell from a scroll, and it takes a move-action to ready a scroll to be read. Thus Summon Monster scrolls are even WORSE than casting the spell directly because you are standing there as an obvious spellcasting target for one COMPLETE PASS (pluse the move action to ready the scroll) and you lose TWO standard actions in this case. BLLLEEEEECH! -Polaris |
| Polaris02-17-06, 02:30 AM | I think summons can be very powerful. I don't. I think summons are situational at best. Our 8th level party's druid summons dire wolves. Those suckers are ridiculously powerful. Can trip most foes, do decent damage, and usually soak a lot of HP's. In the first place, how many SNA does your Druid have memorized? I am willing to bet on zero. This is why the Druid is the best summoner in the game...he doesn't have to pay for the ability to summon (and his buff spells working on his summons is a nice bennie too). In the second place, your CR 8 party should be facing CR 8-12 encounters and in such encounters, Dire Wolves SUCK. They only have an AC of 14 and 45 hit points and very bad saves for this level. What's worse, your Druid will only summon an average of two for a fourth level spell....gives up a FULL ROUND of other actions (and the opportunity cost for a Druid is very high) and they only last 8 rounds. With only +11 attack, they will have a hard time hitting the AC of any CR 8-12 encounter and will almost never trip the same. Tripping is only good against humanoid type encounters and by this time most CR8-12 encounters won't be humanoid. In addition by this time, Prot Evil and Circle Evil (or good) will be routine as will spells and/or spell-like abilities.....and AC 14 and 45 hitpoints is down in one attack (maybe two) with a power-attacking 8th level barbarian or Troll with a couple of character levels. Even worse, the Wolves are large but only have a 5' reach which means they have all the drawbacks of being big with almost none of the bonuses and will often get in the party's way. I've played Druids. It CAN be useful to summon Dire-Wolves at this level, but SNA IV to summon a Unicorn AFTER the battle is a much better use of the spell. Sure, they don't work too well against spell casters cause they have PfE and dispel. But they work great against most monsters, especially unintelligent ones who will attack them instead of the PC's. Unintelligent Monsters are generally untrippable and have abilities that eat Direwolves for breakfast. Intelligent monsters at this CR should also be magic-using monsters (either by spell, item or both) and that means Prot X and/or circle X especially if a spellcraft roll is made. -Polaris |
| Lyinginbedmon02-17-06, 02:42 AM | I have 2 7th level spellcasting NPCs (Wizard & Dread Necromancer). Both know Summon Undead IV. They will be going against a CR 14 Ragewalker. And I recently figured out that they can summon Allips and take it out pretty quickly, using Summon Undead IV, who deal 1d4 Wisdom drain, which the Ragewalker has 14 of. So, 2 Allips dealing 2d4 Wisdom drain on a roll of 13+ (35%), will take this thing down in, what? 3 turns? The only problem is of course the Ragewalker's Blade Barrier SP, but the casters get enough uses of SU4, that they can keep going until he's actually out of SPs. So, surprisingly, if 2 7s can take out a CR 14 with CR 4 monsters, then yes they are pretty powerful. |
| Polaris02-17-06, 03:06 AM | I have 2 7th level spellcasting NPCs (Wizard & Dread Necromancer). Both know Summon Undead IV. They will be going against a CR 14 Ragewalker. No way. Your summoned undead are toast. And I recently figured out that they can summon Allips and take it out pretty quickly, using Summon Undead IV, who deal 1d4 Wisdom drain, which the Ragewalker has 14 of. So, 2 Allips dealing 2d4 Wisdom drain on a roll of 13+ (35%), will take this thing down in, what? 3 turns? CIRCLE OF PROTECTION IS YOUR FRIEND. So is deathward. Given that Circle of Prot lasts 10min/level, there is no reason the Ragewalker won't have one up. In short, your undead are useless. The only problem is of course the Ragewalker's Blade Barrier SP, but the casters get enough uses of SU4, that they can keep going until he's actually out of SPs. So, surprisingly, if 2 7s can take out a CR 14 with CR 4 monsters, then yes they are pretty powerful. Nope. Your undead won't even last a round, especially not with any turning ability...and with Circle of Protection and/or Deathward (both very logical and possible here), your undead summons are worse than useless. In short, Summoning is not nearly as good as you think unless the NPC is stupid (and even if the NPC is stupid, it will have enough countermanding abilities to make up the difference). -Polaris |
| tresh02-17-06, 08:58 AM | I agree that summoning looks a bit underpowered, compared to spells of same level. But lets look at some beneficial asspects of summon monster spells. 1. Since caster chooses which monster to call at the time of casting, that way by matching monster aligment to the opponents Protection spell (summoning fiendish creature agains prot good), caster can bypass that protection. (I know this doesn't work for clerics, but works for wizards) 2. Most monsters have Smite attack. (OK so summon a celestial riding dog on 3 level, he can immidately attack evil enemy with +7 to +9 (charge, flank, augument summoning) for 1d6+5 or 7. Dealing on average 10.5hp of magical attack (bypasses some dmg reducion). 3. All summoned monsters have to some extend, damage reduction, energy and spell resistances (5+HD). So it's possible for summoned monster not to be affected by Prot spells. 4. Also they can be used as cannon fodder. Occuping minions so party can focus on a main villan. And of course, all those things can get even better with additional buffs. After everything said, summon monster spells are must have for every wizard, but not so good for sorcerers. |
| Polaris02-17-06, 11:26 AM | I agree that summoning looks a bit underpowered, compared to spells of same level. But lets look at some beneficial asspects of summon monster spells. 1. Since caster chooses which monster to call at the time of casting, that way by matching monster aligment to the opponents Protection spell (summoning fiendish creature agains prot good), caster can bypass that protection. (I know this doesn't work for clerics, but works for wizards) First of all, it doesn't work for Druids who are the best summoners in the game because of the SNA list. Secondly, it requires that your caster be omniscient. IF the monster cast Prot X on the spot, then this world work....but look at it. First the creature uses a standard action to cast that spell. THEN you spend one entire round casting your summons. Well, guess what? The enemy can spellcraft too and you pick your monster at the time of casting. That allows the enemy one full shot to either disrupt the spell, or cast a prot Y....or do something else....and at best you start all over again. Thirdly, it doesn't work for beans against Circle of X unless of course your caster is omniscient. You don't know what circle he has up until you find out the hard way (due to the 10 min per level duration). Finally, as you said, this doesn't work at all for Clerics or Divine casters in general. 2. Most monsters have Smite attack. (OK so summon a celestial riding dog on 3 level, he can immidately attack evil enemy with +7 to +9 (charge, flank, augument summoning) for 1d6+5 or 7. Dealing on average 10.5hp of magical attack (bypasses some dmg reducion). Most monsters has sucky charisma scores and can't even HIT the AC of a typical encounter of your level. That makes smite nearly useless. [And DR makes most summons even with smite a near total joke.] 3. All summoned monsters have to some extend, damage reduction, energy and spell resistances (5+HD). So it's possible for summoned monster not to be affected by Prot spells. First that's not true (look at the SNA list). Secondly, SR of 5+HD? Give me a freaking break! Your typical enemy caster level is going to be CR+2 or so. The typical hit-dice of a summon is going to be what? CR/2 or so? So at level 10, your typical roll to overcome SR by your summons (they NOT YOU make the roll) will be d20+10? The typical DC will be 23. That's pretty poor odds for the sacrifice of a full round action....and again, that's ASSUMING the summons have SR (which in many cases they will not). 4. Also they can be used as cannon fodder. Occuping minions so party can focus on a main villan. Yes. That is one situational use for a summon. And of course, all those things can get even better with additional buffs. Wasting of course those buffs instead of focusing them on combatants that can actually do something (like your party members). Of course with MASS Spells, this isn't an issue (why I love MASS spells). After everything said, summon monster spells are must have for every wizard, but not so good for sorcerers. :nonono: I would have agreed if you said that a Wizard should have summoning spells in his book, but except for very specific cases, the spell isn't worth memorizing because the opportunity cost is so high. IMHO and IMX Summoning is a utility and situational spell. Even then, especially with Gate, outright calls are generally a much better bet. -Polaris |
| Gnarl02-17-06, 12:27 PM | Secondly, it requires that your caster be omniscient. IF the monster cast Prot X on the spot, then this world work....but look at it. First the creature uses a standard action to cast that spell. THEN you spend one entire round casting your summons. Well, guess what? The enemy can spellcraft too and you pick your monster at the time of casting. That allows the enemy one full shot to either disrupt the spell, or cast a prot Y....or do something else....and at best you start all over again. Bull ****. Open you Monster Manual and count the number of creatures that have spellcraft or that can cast protection from X spells. I don't have a lot of experience DM at higher levels, but at low to mid levels, there are very little. I didn't check at higher levels, even then, Summon Monster sucks because after 17th level, most opponents will..., that's not a point. Most monsters has sucky charisma scores and can't even HIT the AC of a typical encounter of your level. That makes smite nearly useless. [And DR makes most summons even with smite a near total joke.] Not true again. Once again, check your numbers. Open you Monster Manual, and look at monsters with CR 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15 and 17. And compare their AC with the base attack of summon monsters I to IX. You'll realize that you have over 50% chance of success. CIRCLE OF PROTECTION IS YOUR FRIEND. So is deathward. Given that Circle of Prot lasts 10min/level, there is no reason the Ragewalker won't have one up. In short, your undead are useless. Yes there is. The Rage walker does not have magic circle of protection nor does he have deathward. Open you Monster Manual 3 and look at the ragewalker's spell-like abilities. In the second place, your CR 8 party should be facing CR 8-12 encounters Open your Dungeon Master guide page 49. Only 15% of encounters should be above the pcs average level. Prot Evil and Circle Evil (or good) will be routine as will spells and/or spell-like abilities See above. and AC 14 and 45 hitpoints is down in one attack (maybe two) with a power-attacking 8th level barbarian or Troll with a couple of character levels With an elite array, don't expect more than Con 12-16 at the levels you will be using dire wolves. That's wizards with 37 hit points, rogues with 46, clerics with 55 and fighters with 64. Remind me, 45 hit points sucks? Creatures with power attack is not the average. Even if they were, having an opponent waste a whole round for a 3rd or 4th level spell is nice. Unintelligent Monsters are generally untrippable With a +11 to your trip attemps, the dire wolf is on par with the party fighter with improved trip. It's not uncommon for the fighter that tries to trip a giant. Anyway, all in all, I totaly agree with you Polaris. If you're playing outside of an average game (elite arrays, average wealth and average hit points) summon monsters aren't too good. DM need to toss encounters CR +0 to +4 to keep things interresting and if high CR encounters is your daily encounter, than yes, Summon Monsters do suck. |
| malignor02-17-06, 12:36 PM | A few things about summons. 1 - make sure you have some good mass-buff spells. Haste is a great starter. 2 - make sure you have dispel magic on your list... If your DM is one of those ones that Polaris thinks are so common (having memorize protection from X or Magic Circle against X, 3-5 times... which usually means they're rather pitiful in a magic duel except a one-trick-pony summoning machine), a little dispelling can sure come in handy before your minions descend on the foe. 3 - summon stuff with as big a Hitdice as you can in fights. when you're using fodder, you want as many HP as you can, and that also gets the SR and DR values a little higher. 4 - Quantity over quality is usually the way to go. I don't suggest MSI or MSII, but at MSIII things get worthwhile, because with one spell you can have 1d4+1 foes flanked with multiple party members. 4 - a - Even just surrounding yourself with dire rats means nobody (like a melee foe) can get into adjacent squares without using wasting a standard action killing a rat. Then on your turn, you can take a 5' step, have the remaining rats surround the foe & use their useless attacks (which will only do anything if you're lucky, let's be honest). You still have a full round (minus a 5' step) and you just took up 2 rounds of the opponent (more if you can repeat). Great for defense against foes w/o crowd control. 4 - b - creatures with special combat moves, like wolves, are also great. Trip is not level dependent, only strength/dex and size/shape depentent. So even when you're up against a high level humanoid, little guys like wolves are fantastic... keep in mind that my experience is mostly with the pseudonatural template (can't do protection from Neutral against P/N wolves), which have true strike instead of smiting, so this tactic mat be less impressive when ACs get too high for the wolves. If you say SR is useless... Caster Level Summons Max SR 1 SMI 6 (dire rat, centipede, spider) 3 SMII 8 (centipede) 5 SMIII 10 (centipede) 7 SMIV 11 (dire wolf) 9 SMV 16 (hound archon) 17 (bearded devil) 19 (achaerai) 11 SMVI 17 (Bralani) 18 (Chain Devil) 21 (Xill) 13 SMVII 25 (Avoral) 21 (Bone Devil) 15 SMVIII 21 (triceratops, tiger, spider) 23 (tyrannosaur) 25 (collosal centipede) 17 SMIX 23 (Roc, BArbed Devil) 25 (night hag, scorpion, spider) 28 (Leonal)... I'm not sure if you're reading right. At level 17 you can summon up 1d4+1 bone devils, and that can sure turn the tide of any battle, and the SR can make a difference even if it doesn't work every time (which it was never meant to do anyway). At level 5 (where I suggest starting your summons, both for duration and flexibility) call up 1d3 large centipedes. Granted they're not a great threat, but that's 1d3 hits not being made on your party, 1d3 things that have a chance of resisting a spell or hurting your opponents, 1d3 extra additions you can use to control the battlefield. Tactics to come |
| Ignatius Metamorphic02-17-06, 04:15 PM | Having played a Wizard who cast Summon Monster spells, I would have to say that they are solid spells. The challenge for the player is to be familiar with ALL the creatures that you can summon. The spells are like Swiss Army Knives. There is almost always a creature on the Summon Monster list that will prove useful. You need to think tactically to use the spells well. Start looking through the monsters you can summon. First, you get a wide range of special abilities that are useful. Summon Monster IV, for example, give a caster access to Poison, Acid Spray, Breath Weapons, Light rays, Spell-like abilities (magic circle against evil, aid, detect evil, gust of wind, wind wall, soften earth and stone, scorching ray, heat metal, magic missile, chill metal, pyrotechnics, stinking cloud, glitterdust, acid arrow), Bay, Trip, Smite, Quills, whirlwind, push, Burn, drench, & vortex. Individually, none of those abilities seem that impressive, but I get access to any of them with one spell. Some of those abilities are not even on the Wizard spell list. That's versatility. Summon Monster spell give you access to a variety of creatures that you can throw against your enemies. If you carefully select your creature to oppose your enemy, you can be more effective. Fighting a fire creature? Summon something that has fire resistance (or a cold attack). As some previous posters have mentioned, you creatures can do more than just attack. They can flank, trip, grapple, provoke AoO, and block. You can summon strong, flying, burrowing, swimming, earth gliding, or climbing creatures. You can summon creatures with scent, blindsense, tremorsense, etc. One strength of the Summon Monster spells is that they usually accomplish multiple goals. A summoned monter can attack (Damaging your enemy) and become a target (Diverting attacks away from you). Remember, every point of damage a summoned creature takes is a point of damage someone in your party did not take. To address some of the specific issues posted above... Summon Monster vs, Summon Nature's Ally: I would be careful about comparing the two spells. Although the two spells are similar mechanically, the creatures you can summon are different (although there is some overlap). This is important since Summon Monster can give you access to a different set of abilities. Damage Output: The damage output is comparable to other spells. At first level, Magic Missle does 1D4+1 damage (3.5 avg.). A Celestial Giant Fire Beetle does 2D4+1 ( 6 avg. including smite). Obviously, however, the beetle will not always hit it's target. On the other hand, at second level, the beetle stays around for 2 rounds, doubling its damage potential. Magic Missle still does 1D4+1. A couple of simple tricks to increase your to hits: position your summoned cretures so they can either flank or change into combat (+2 to hit). If you summon 2 or more creatures, you can summon them so they can do both (+4 to hit). Protection from X: It's an issue, but I think it has been overstated. Pretty much every spell in D&D has a counter. Magic Missle is opposed by Sheild. Fireball is opposed by Protection from Energy. Consider three things. First, there will be many enemies who do not have these abilities. Second, You can summon many creatures who can attack from range: Giant Bombardier Beetle, Lantern Archon, Hell Hound. Plu, your summoned creatures still have uses even if they cannot directly attack your enemy. They can flank, block, serve as a mount, use special abilities. Third, If an enemy cast Protection from X to foil my summoned creature, that's one less action they have to use against my party. Enemy casters get one spell per round. I would prefer that they cast Pro. X instead of an attack spell. Casting Time: Yes, the casting time is an issue. Again, there are ways around it. Take the Rapid Spell feat. Cast invisibility on yourself before the combat. Your Summon Monster spell won't end your invisibility. Neither will the buff spell you cast on your summoned monster. Move behind cover before you cast. At higher levels, cast the spell the round before you open the door. What difference does it make if the duration is 10+ rounds? Heck, don't even enter the room, cast from outside. Feats: If you plan on casting summon monster spells regularly, you are probably going to want to take Spell Focus: Conjuration, Augment Summoning, and Rapid Spell. So what? If you were playing an evoker, you would want to take spell focus, greater spell focus, spell penetration, and greater spell penetration. You take feats to optimize what you want to do. I found the spells useful and fun to play with. But the experience is very different than playing an evoker. A quick tip: When I played a wizard who used the Summon Monster spells I printed off all the creatures I could summon to use a a reference. It saved a lot of time. |
| polsemager02-17-06, 04:35 PM | Actually, we had to remove my druid from the game since it was simply too strong with only Spell Focus (Conj) and Augment Summoning. At 7th level, the Giant crocodiles grappled anything around, and that was before getting Animal growth. Also, as has been mentioned, these spells are so very, very versatile. For anyone thinking summining is not strong I advice to tkae a look at the Druid Challenge. These druids beat equal CR single handed not thanks to Wildshape, but to SNA. |
| tarkin02-17-06, 05:06 PM | As a general rule, a fighter of X level should always be capable of taking a Monster Summoned by a Druid of X level. However, as others have stated, the spells are general, swiss army knife type things. You call the creature neccesary for that battle. Fighting an aquatic creature? Summon an Aquatic. Fighting a flier? Summon a Flier. ------ Note, a Giant Crocadile is a nasty grappler, being Huge, reasonably strong and having the feat. But it is hardly a killer creature for it's level, even with Augmented Summoning. |
| polsemager02-17-06, 05:18 PM | I agree they should, but how about the 9th level fighter being flanked by 1d3 Giant crocodiles (Huge) that are hit instantly with an Animal Growth spell. I think the poor fellow has a serious problem. |
| jaerad02-17-06, 05:47 PM | Direct your attention hyaw (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=174240). Check out Snow's post, #17. |
| malignor02-17-06, 07:20 PM | === Summon Monster I&II Tactics === = SMI = Track or detect by scent (Celestial Dog; +5 track) Hitch a ride in water (Celestial Porpoise; Also has blindsight) Combat caddy (Celestial Monkey; Great climb/balance too) Locate invisible creature (Fiendish Spider... tremorsense & throw web) = SMII = Locate Hidden (Celestial Eagle; +16 spot) Fights when you throw fire spells (Lemure; impervious to fire) Trip smaller/weaker foes like casters & stealthies (Fiendish Wolf; +2 trip) Improved Grab (Fiendish Scorpion; +2 grapple; best with sheer numbers) |
| Vanity_Kills02-17-06, 09:45 PM | It still takes one round to cast this spell from a scroll, and it takes a move-action to ready a scroll to be read. Thus Summon Monster scrolls are even WORSE than casting the spell directly because you are standing there as an obvious spellcasting target for one COMPLETE PASS (pluse the move action to ready the scroll) and you lose TWO standard actions in this case. BLLLEEEEECH! -Polaris True that at low levels this tactic is mostly useless, by by the time you can summon a Night Hag and Green Slaad, two standard actions are going to be worth it |
| BW022202-17-06, 11:02 PM | Yes, summon monster spells are useful and worth memorizing. It is definitely worth a cleric keeping one in memory and it is useful for a sorceror to have a mid-level summon monster (III or IV) known. A wizard is typically happy with a scroll of it. While summoned monsters are typically well under the CR of the combats (unlike some of the summon nature's ally spells) there are many cases when it can still be useful. Blocking While a creature typically can't defeat what you are fighting, a celestial bison has a fair number of hit points and blocks a 10x10' area. Even at fairly high levels, it can takes couple of rounds for a creature to hack through. Distracting Spellcasters Even at high levels, few spell casters can honestly deal with a celestial lion or 2-5 fiendish wolves. Such creatures can make short work of humaniod NPCs. Even for spellcasters able to deal with them, they still have to spend rounds worrying about some summoned creatures rather than directing spells at you. Flying Creatures Often you get hounded by flying, levitating, or out-of-reach creatures which are hard to block or disrupt. For example, archers on a roof-top, or spell casters levitating. Sending a number of celestial eagles or hippogriffs up can greatly disrupt them. At worst, they need to target the summoned creatures for a couple of rounds. Air or Water Transport A hippogriff can be used for getting over a wall or a crocodile for crossing a moat or keep you from drowning. Flushing Out Traps/Ambushes Nothing wrong with sending a fiendish dire wolf into a room where you suspect the bad guy is located. At least the first attacks aren't directed at you. Special Senses/Abilities Remember that celestial and/or fiendish creatures have various abilities. In addition, so do many animals. Wolves have scent and can smell out invisibile creatures. Fiendish creatures have darkvision, fire resistance, spell resistance, and even damage reduction. Non-Combat Uses A celestial bison forcing open a door, a celestial eagle for very short distance scounting, a trio of small fire elements to light a warehouse on fire, etc. |
| Polaris02-17-06, 11:35 PM | Just remember folks that you can not summon what isn't listed in the PHB rules as written. What's more, you want to summon d4+1 which makes the summons even weaker....and if you use rapid spell, that is one level MORE. Summoning (for example) 2-5 first level critters when you are a level FIVE party is generally not worthwhile. GENERALLY. [And shame on some of you for assuming we'd recogninze a MMIII monster out of the gate.] If you KNOW that you are going to face a given situation or a given opponent, then Summon spells can be worthwhile. However, IMX the most dangerous encounters are low CR monsters with lots of PC character levels. Yes, summon monster spells are useful and worth memorizing. It is definitely worth a cleric keeping one in memory and it is useful for a sorceror to have a mid-level summon monster (III or IV) known. A wizard is typically happy with a scroll of it. Strongly disagree in most cases. A sorcerer or favored soul should NEVER take it (get a scroll or two of it if you must). It is worth it for a wizard to have one in his book. While summoned monsters are typically well under the CR of the combats (unlike some of the summon nature's ally spells) there are many cases when it can still be useful. Blocking While a creature typically can't defeat what you are fighting, a celestial bison has a fair number of hit points and blocks a 10x10' area. Even at fairly high levels, it can takes couple of rounds for a creature to hack through. Blocking doesn't work very well. At worst the enemy will spend an action removing the summons. All too often (esp with tumble), blocking is totally ineffective. Also remember that blocking WORKS TWO WAYS and the enemy can use your own summons (which generally can't harm him because of the large CR difference) to get free AC against YOU. Distracting Spellcasters Even at high levels, few spell casters can honestly deal with a celestial lion or 2-5 fiendish wolves. Such creatures can make short work of humaniod NPCs. Even for spellcasters able to deal with them, they still have to spend rounds worrying about some summoned creatures rather than directing spells at you. Bogus in almost all cases. Summon takes too long to cast and pretty much every decent spellcaster will have spellcraft. Not only that but Circle vs X is a very nice spell to have for MULTIPLE reasons (AC, Saves, effective immunity vs domination) that it's likely to be up (or Prot vs X).....and because of the spellcraft, it can be raised before you get your spell off......OR you can be disrupted......OR BOTH. Flying Creatures Often you get hounded by flying, levitating, or out-of-reach creatures which are hard to block or disrupt. For example, archers on a roof-top, or spell casters levitating. Sending a number of celestial eagles or hippogriffs up can greatly disrupt them. At worst, they need to target the summoned creatures for a couple of rounds. I guess you don't use the maneuverability rules then. With the CR differences and strafing, your summons are generally useless. You are much better off flying up (because of maneuverability) and fighting them yourself or simply shooting them out of the sky (or more usually both). Air or Water Transport A hippogriff can be used for getting over a wall or a crocodile for crossing a moat or keep you from drowning. 1 round per level...... OOOPS.......that's gotta hurt..... Flushing Out Traps/Ambushes Nothing wrong with sending a fiendish dire wolf into a room where you suspect the bad guy is located. At least the first attacks aren't directed at you. Bogus. You can't place a summon outside your line of effect. Also the ambushers might (and IMX often will) have spellcraft and at the very least (even without spellcraft) will know a spell is being cast. If the enemy is intelligent enough to ambush, they are intelligent enough to kill your summoner before the spell is complete. Special Senses/Abilities Remember that celestial and/or fiendish creatures have various abilities. In addition, so do many animals. Wolves have scent and can smell out invisibile creatures. Fiendish creatures have darkvision, fire resistance, spell resistance, and even damage reduction. And what special ability is granted by Summon to COMMUNICATE this to the summoner? [There isn't any] Summon is almost useless for scouting because of the low duration of the spell. As for special abilities, I grant this and always have. It can be the big reason (esp if you know what you will be facing) to use the spell. Non-Combat Uses A celestial bison forcing open a door, a celestial eagle for very short distance scounting, a trio of small fire elements to light a warehouse on fire, etc. There are usually less expensive ways to do it. -Polaris |
| Polaris02-18-06, 12:25 AM | Malignor, I will post your own chart to show that SR is useless for summons. 1 SMI 6 (dire rat, centipede, spider) 3 SMII 8 (centipede) 5 SMIII 10 (centipede) 7 SMIV 11 (dire wolf) 9 SMV 16 (hound archon) 17 (bearded devil) 19 (achaerai) 11 SMVI 17 (Bralani) 18 (Chain Devil) 21 (Xill) 13 SMVII 25 (Avoral) 21 (Bone Devil) 15 SMVIII 21 (triceratops, tiger, spider) 23 (tyrannosaur) 25 (collosal centipede) 17 SMIX 23 (Roc, BArbed Devil) Remember, that going by your own standards, we will want to summon d4+1 so the mimimum you'd see SM-1 creatures is caster level 5. Caster level 5 automatically beats SR 6. SM 2 will be caster level 7. That automatically beats SR 8. SM 3 will be caster level 9. That automatically beats SR 10. SM 4 will be caster level 11. That automatically beats SR 11. SM 5 will be caster level 13. That beats SR 16 90% of the time, SR 17 85% of the time, and SR 19 75% of the time. SM 6 will be caster level 15. That beats SR 17 95% of the time, SR 18 90% of the time, and SR 21 75% of the time. SM 7 will be caster level 17. That beats SR 21 85% of the time and SR 25 65% of the time. Above this you are into EPIC territory. Notice that I am ASSUMING that the enemy caster level is equal to the caster level of the caster. Usually it will be higher....often 2-4 higher. Notice that I am NOT assuming the enemy has spell penetration even though this is a very likely feat for an enemy caster. That makes the numbers even worse for the summon. So yes, virginia, SR for summons really are worthless. -Polaris |
| BW022202-18-06, 01:36 AM | Polaris, Summoning (for example) 2-5 first level critters when you are a level FIVE party is generally not worthwhile. Sure it is. 2-5 badgers around a 5th-level enemy wizard puts the wizard in serious trouble. He isn't going to get spells off (baring some good defensive casting) and the badgers could easy do some serious damage against a lightly armored opponent. It also keeps the wizard from moving. Even around an ogre, it will takes the ogre 2-5 rounds to deal with them all. That is 2-5 rounds that you get to attack the ogre and that he isn't attacking you. Strongly disagree in most cases. A sorcerer or favored soul should NEVER take it (get a scroll or two of it if you must). Since sorcorers have limited numbers of spells, spells which have multiple uses are much more effective for them. A summon spell can be used offensively, defensively, or for miscellaneous uses. Also, if combined with a simple low levels spell, say darkness or fog cloud, the effects can be great. Blocking doesn't work very well. At worst the enemy will spend an action removing the summons. All too often (esp with tumble), blocking is totally ineffective. A single bison has 37 hit points and DR 5/magic. A hill giant does 14hp per hit. It still takes him a couple of rounds to take out. Or one could summon 2-5 badgers. That is 2-3 rounds to get rid of them. All this time your party can be attacking him. Isn't it better to have some bison taking the damage rather than your fighter? Isn't one 3rd-level spell better than casting a half-dozen curing spells after the combat? Also remember that blocking WORKS TWO WAYS and the enemy can use your own summons (which generally can't harm him because of the large CR difference) to get free AC against YOU. Yes. But presumably your caster has enough intelligence to know when to use it to block. If you have a great AC fighter who can deal with the bad guy, then you can summon it behind him for flanking. However, in a five person party, it mid+ levels you fighter can't block everyone - especially outdoors, cities, or large rooms, or when folks come up behind you. A bison makes a simple wall. Bogus in almost all cases. Summon takes too long to cast and pretty much every decent spellcaster will have spellcraft. ... Few clerics have high spellcraft. Few arcane casters take protection spells. Clerics have few offensive spells to toss back at you and there are many ways to get full-round spells off. Druids summon stuff all the time. I guess you don't use the maneuverability rules then. Personal insults won't make your points any more valid. I follow the RAW, I assume others do also. You summon the fly creatures, they move to the target and attack. They end their initiative within the next to the creature's square. In the case of folks on ledges, buildings, etc. they can land. 1 round per level......OOOPS.......that's gotta hurt..... I said "Get over a wall or cross a moat" How high do you think the castle wall is? How wide do you think a moat is? Three rounds is more than enough. I've seen a summoned shark keep two PCs from drowning. Bogus. You can't place a summon outside your line of effect. Also the ambushers might (and IMX often will) have spellcraft and at the very least (even without spellcraft) will know a spell is being cast. If the enemy is intelligent enough to ambush, they are intelligent enough to kill your summoner before the spell is complete. Now you are talking silly. I said "send the summoned creature into the room". You summon it when you are outside the room and send it in. How can someone disrupt a spell when you are arround the corner or down the hallway? If they want to come out of their ambush points... great! And what special ability is granted by Summon to COMMUNICATE this to the summoner? How about that fact that the fiendish wolf runs over to the corner and starts biting at the square? Gee... maybe the invisible person is over there? There are usually less expensive ways to do it. What is less expensive than a single spell? Knock, warp wood, produce flame, and a half dozen other spells rolled into one. The fact is that spell is highly versitile. Use your other spell slots for spells you need more commonly. You don't fall into the water all the time, you don't need to hope a wall all the time, you don't run across traps you can't disarm at the time, etc. Having one spell in memory works well. Druids summon stuff all the time, so it is definitely a viable tactic. It's also good tactic for a cleric or arcane caster to keep a summoning spell in memory. Many folks do not have good defenses against it - creatures unexpectedly in the rear rows, archers or spell casters forced into melee, folks fighting creatures with darkvision and scent in darkness, big nasties having to waste time with little critters while spellcasters are blasting you, etc. It has a lot of uses - both inside and outside of combat. |
| Polaris02-18-06, 02:05 AM | Polaris, Sure it is. 2-5 badgers around a 5th-level enemy wizard puts the wizard in serious trouble. He isn't going to get spells off (baring some good defensive casting) and the badgers could easy do some serious damage against a lightly armored opponent. It also keeps the wizard from moving. Even around an ogre, it will takes the ogre 2-5 rounds to deal with them all. That is 2-5 rounds that you get to attack the ogre and that he isn't attacking you. Nope. Let's look at it. A fifth level wizard will have maxxed concentration and probably a decent (at least +2) Con score and will probably have either skill focus Concentration (one of the few skill focus feats a wizard should take) and/or Combat Casting. That's a check of +10 BEFORE feats and more likely +13 or even +17. The fifth level wizard can defensively cast with impunity. That is why Complete Arcane came up with the Mage Slayer feat to begin with. Likewise an Ogre will have two feats. CLEAVE anybody? Bye-bye summons (esp when combined with Power-Attack, it's prerequisite). Since sorcorers have limited numbers of spells, spells which have multiple uses are much more effective for them. A summon spell can be used offensively, defensively, or for miscellaneous uses. Also, if combined with a simple low levels spell, say darkness or fog cloud, the effects can be great. If Summons were better, then I'd agree. It is true that the sorcerer gets hosed by the lack of general use spells. Unfortunately, Summon is just not good enough to justify a valuable slot. A single bison has 37 hit points and DR 5/magic. A hill giant does 14hp per hit. It still takes him a couple of rounds to take out. Or one could summon 2-5 badgers. That is 2-3 rounds to get rid of them. All this time your party can be attacking him. Isn't it better to have some bison taking the damage rather than your fighter? Isn't one 3rd-level spell better than casting a half-dozen curing spells after the combat? You are forgetting the Hill Giant has CLEAVE and POWER ATTACK. With a Bison's terrible AC, your Hill-Giant will take it out in one attack and still get another one off (with Cleave). Moreover, the Hill Giant is an equipment user which means that if he has treasure like magical armor, he will be wearing it. Thus the Hill Giant can probably ignore the bison and kill the fighter or simply kill the Bison in one shot and still get a cleave on the fighter. BTW, no. I do not agree that one third level spell (that takes way too long to cast) is better than a half-dozen curing spells after combat. CLW wands are dirt cheap and Minor Vigor wands are just as cheap and even better. Yes. But presumably your caster has enough intelligence to know when to use it to block. If you have a great AC fighter who can deal with the bad guy, then you can summon it behind him for flanking. However, in a five person party, it mid+ levels you fighter can't block everyone - especially outdoors, cities, or large rooms, or when folks come up behind you. A bison makes a simple wall. Maybe. In a dungeon a bison is more trouble than it's worth. In an open field, a Bison is effectively useless. That reduces your scenarios drastically. Few clerics have high spellcraft. Few arcane casters take protection spells. Clerics have few offensive spells to toss back at you and there are many ways to get full-round spells off. Druids summon stuff all the time. Since when? A cleric has 2+Int skill points per level. That's enough (if human) for spellcraft, knowledge religion, and concentration. Anything more is pure gravy for a cleric. A cleric has a strong incentive to get maxxed out spellcraft by EPIC levels. In addition, the cleric MAY have an ally...... Druids summon stuff all the time (actually less than you think...I've played a summoner Druid) because they don't pay for it. Personal insults won't make your points any more valid. I follow the RAW, I assume others do also. You summon the fly creatures, they move to the target and attack. They end their initiative within the next to the creature's square. In the case of folks on ledges, buildings, etc. they can land. I did not insult you personally or otherwise, and claiming that does not enhance your point at all and leaves me singularly unmoved. Most summoned creatures have Manueverability C at BEST which means one attack and they have to go for another pass. Given the very short duration of Summons and the long casting time, it's almost a total loss in most cases. You are far better off with fly, mass fly, air walk, ect. I said "Get over a wall or cross a moat" How high do you think the castle wall is? How wide do you think a moat is? Three rounds is more than enough. I've seen a summoned shark keep two PCs from drowning. Well that depends, doesn't it? Given by the time the spells last long enough, mass movement spells exist anyway (or the Druid can wildshape to the appropraite form) color my singularly unimpressed. Now you are talking silly. I said "send the summoned creature into the room". You summon it when you are outside the room and send it in. How can someone disrupt a spell when you are arround the corner or down the hallway? If they want to come out of their ambush points... great! Read the rules on VERBAL components again. You have to cast with a loud, firm voice. Base Listen Check DC: ZERO. That's modified by distance of course, but it just means that the creatures inside the room can spring the ambush while you are summoning the creature....and then you are SOL. For that matter (if the creatures inside made a spellcraft and know what you are doing), they can ignore the creature. The creature will NOT attack unless it has directions to do so. How about that fact that the fiendish wolf runs over to the corner and starts biting at the square? Gee... maybe the invisible person is over there? 50% miss chance IF THE PERSON IS THERE AT ALL. See Invisible is lower level and lasts much longer and is much better overall. For that matter an AoE would be better. What is less expensive than a single spell? Knock, warp wood, produce flame, and a half dozen other spells rolled into one. The fact is that spell is highly versitile. Use your other spell slots for spells you need more commonly. You don't fall into the water all the time, you don't need to hope a wall all the time, you don't run across traps you can't disarm at the time, etc. Having one spell in memory works well. Who said anything about spells? Your barbarian could hack the door down. Arcane Eye is better for scouting (and so is your party rogue or anyone with maxxed out Hide/Move-Silently with the gear to back it up). Open Locks deserves a very honorable mention. Rogues are USEFULL. Druids summon stuff all the time, so it is definitely a viable tactic. It's also good tactic for a cleric or arcane caster to keep a summoning spell in memory. Many folks do not have good defenses against it - creatures unexpectedly in the rear rows, archers or spell casters forced into melee, folks fighting creatures with darkvision and scent in darkness, big nasties having to waste time with little critters while spellcasters are blasting you, etc. It has a lot of uses - both inside and outside of combat. A spell caster that doesn't have protection from X or circle of protection available and usually UP in a potentially hostile situation is a complete IDIOT. The spell does too much so it is not a very viable tactic against most magic using foes (and that's a large percentage esp at higher CRs). As I explained, it is dead easy for said casters to both recognize (and thus warm) and PREPARE for your summons long before you finish it (and may well disrupt it). As for Druids summon stuff all the time? Yes they do, especially critters with special powers (unicorns were a favorte of mine). That is because they don't pay for it! -Polaris |
| Cantankerous02-18-06, 02:11 AM | In a munchkin game they are useless, in a game that pays close attention to the RAW, they are solid gold. Especially for Clerics, when after 7th level they go Thaumaturgist, the Monster Summoning spells are very powerful indeed. By 12th level, a Cleric*7/Thaumaturgist*5 is a stupendously powerful and versatile opponent. Consider just the following. A Contingent Conjuration of an Augmented Celestial Dire Lion who's going to be there for an "Extended" period, without having to even cast the spell when it's needed. A certain event, like being ambushed perhaps, occurs, and suddenly, there is our Augmented Celestial Dire Lion, out of no where, even DURING the surprise round of an ambush for instance, ready to ambush the ambushers. This bad boy is seriously not bad when you consider that he's got an inherent +2 to his fort saves, attacks, damage rolls and an extra 16 HPs off the top. It's one of those cases where a 6th level spell can be used to grab a CR*8 bit of help for a pretty good stretch of time. Even something like an eleven headed cyro-hydra isn't going to enjoy a beastie with a +15 base attack whipping off three attacks per round (plus maybe rake as well) on him that do 1d6+9/1d6+9/1d8+4 (and maybe an addtional 1d6+4) while it needs only a roll of 6 or better to hit on everything except it's bite (which needs a 12). And with 76 HP, 10 points of Resistance to Acid, Cold and Electricity and 5 points of Damage Reduction that the Hydra (who's weaker in every stat than our Augmented Dire Lion) has to deal with. This boyo kicks out enough damage to, on average, exceed the fast healing of the beast every round, leaving the summoner and his party plenty of oppurtunity to prepare themselves and negate the ambush advantage of their foe. One thing to note though, the further you move away from the Core, in the form of splatbooks allowed especially, the weaker these (and many another) Core spells become compared to many other non-Core spells of their level. That's simple specialization (and the much more fast and loose attention paid to balance, when any was paid at all) on the part of the non-Core materials. Isshia |
| Polaris02-18-06, 02:22 AM | Cantankerous, You can min-max anything, but if you have to go away from CORE material and CORE PrCs in order to convince us that a class of spells (Summons) are worth taking, then it's pretty clear that they generally aren't worth taking in most (not all!) cases. You can min-max a fighter too, but no one is going to claim that the fighter class (esp at high levels) is very strong. Same, same. -Polaris Edit PS: Are you even sure it's a legal contingency? I was under the possibly mistaken impression that you could only do that with spells that had a standard action casting time or less. I DO know that you can not "ready" a summon and I thought that you had to be able to "ready" a spell to make one contingent. |
| Cantankerous02-18-06, 02:33 AM | Polaris, I think you misread. This does not deviate from Core AT ALL. This is entirely Core. The Thaumaturgist PrC is in the DMG and the DMG3.5. Also, Contingent Conjuration A 4th-level thaumaturgist can prepare a summoning or calling spell ahead of time to be triggered by some other event. This functions as described for the contingency spell, including having the thaumaturgist cast the summoning or calling spell beforehand. The spell is cast instantly when the trigger event occurs. The conditions needed to bring the spell into effect must be clear, although they can be general. If complicated or convoluted condition as are prescribed, the contingent conjuration may fail when triggered. The conjuration spell occurs based solely on the stated conditions, regardless of whether the thaumaturgist wants it to, although most conjurations can be dismissed normally. A thaumaturgist can have only one contingent conjuration active at a time. It's pretty clear there how this works. Also, accusing a Cleric who likes summonigs of min maxing by taking levels in Thaumaturgist is like accusing a Fighter who likes longswords of min maxing when he takes specialization in them. Isshia |
| Polaris02-18-06, 02:42 AM | Cantankerous, You're right. It is core. However, you are relying on a PrC to make a class of spell worth casting. That by itself tells me (and should tell everyone else) that this class of spell then is generally NOT worth casting. You also only get to have ONE contingency and you can not use the contingency spell (if it is available to you) and use contingent summoning. Blech. I'll pass. You also only get this ability as a MINIMUM of 11th level and that's assuming you take the PrC immediately when you qualify (and that's generally not a great idea if you read the PrC). I am not impressed. -Polaris |
| Polaris02-18-06, 02:45 AM | Also, accusing a Cleric who likes summonigs of min maxing by taking levels in Thaumaturgist is like accusing a Fighter who likes longswords of min maxing when he takes specialization in them. Isshia Nope. My point is considerably more subtle than that. I am saying that if you have to take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization in a weapon in order to show that the weapon is worth taking (when compared with other weapons) or (similiarly) you have to point out that you can take Dual Strike in order to make Two Weapon fighting worthwhile, then the obvious conclusion is that it is not. In short, if you have to point to a PrC to prove that Summoning is worth doing in most cases, then it's not. -Polaris |
| DM Zoc02-18-06, 02:52 AM | Personally, I've had some good experiences with summoned critters. The only real drawback is that it takes a while to memorize or write down the abilities of all of your summon options, or else it takes a while to look through the Monster Manual and find exactly what you should be summoning for each situation. The constant shuffling of books can get annoying for the other players (and especially the DM, who is probably trying to keep the MM open to a specific page around that time). |
| Polaris02-18-06, 03:06 AM | Personally, I've had some good experiences with summoned critters. The only real drawback is that it takes a while to memorize or write down the abilities of all of your summon options, or else it takes a while to look through the Monster Manual and find exactly what you should be summoning for each situation. The constant shuffling of books can get annoying for the other players (and especially the DM, who is probably trying to keep the MM open to a specific page around that time). Contrary to what may assume from reading my posts, I have had some good experiences with Summons myself. In particular, a former GM of mine (who I no longer play for...and good riddance because he is a player-killer GM) just about had a STROKE when I started using SNA as a Druid to heal up the party after combats and at the end of the day. He hated that. The point is that, YES, I can see that in certain cases certain kinds of summons can be useful and personally I found (as a Druid) it was a good idea to have 3x5 cards of the most useful summons for the best situations for them. However, my general PoV remains unchanged. I am supremely unconvinced that Summons are generally useful enough to merit either memorization or (especially!) a valuable slot known for a sorcerer/favored soul. Even with the problems of readying a scroll, it seems to me that Summon III-IX is a better spell to have on a scroll rather than memorized. -Polaris |
| Cantankerous02-18-06, 03:43 AM | It doesn't take the Prc to make the class of spells worth taking, it makes them almost unbalanced power wise. Monster Summoning spells are more than powerful enough in the hands of a smart Player and a DM who doesn't abuse the base system. They aren't supposed to defeat opponents of your own level solo, anymore than any other sixth löevel spell will do so. Even without being augmented or having the duration extended the Celestial Dire Lion is an extremely capable opponent. Without augmentation they are still CR*7 creatures, and this is a sixth level spell. Plus the Celestial Dire Lion is able to do more than just attack foes. Using a bit of ingenuity and inventiveness they can be useful in other (albeit short term) reagrds. I've seen a good Player with a penchant for Summonings use these spells in ways that would curl your hair. If you can effectively communicate with the creature (like, say, a Bralani in this case, instead of the CDL) it can do things other than attack foes. For instance, from one of our games, the PCs (13 th level at the time) had to retreive something from a room filled with literally four dozen cockatrices. The problems were several. One, the scroll they were looking for was somewhere on the floor of the room the cockatrices were in, pretty much negating any offensive magics from being useful. They had narrowed the possibilities down to eight, by using Detect Evil on the room (since they knew the scroll was particularly Evil with a strong aura) and getting eight "pings" from the casting. While Helas, the party Cleric, could have certainly cast Break Enchantment on anyone failing their saves, with that many cockatrices, it's likely several would have been needed. Instead, with a single spell, Summon Monster 6, this CR*14 encounter was gotten around handily by summoning a Bralani who was immune to the petrification of the cockatrices. The Blade Barrier she had up in front of the entrance/exit kept the cockatrices from flooding out and attacking while the Bralani simply transformed into a whirlwind, zipped in and grabbed up all eight of the scrolls scattered about that Helas directed him to and brought them back..upon which point she dispelled the blade barrier, he got through and the party Wizard cast a wall of stone to seal the entrance/exit in it's place. Sure, it's just one example, but it's indictive. If you have a smart Player, who thinks outside of the box, then a spell group like Monster Summoning is INCREDIBLY versatile because the beings it summons are incredibly diverse. It really only depends on the Player. Isshia |
| malignor02-18-06, 03:44 AM | Not really trying to change your point of view, Polaris. Just trying to make a case for readers without every litle thing we say getting shot down by biased arguments which require an adversarial DM who metagames like mad, giving every badguy power attack, cleave, high tumble checks, protection from X/circle against X (casted before combat of course), a bunch of spells, feats & skills designed to resist & counter your every move etc. ... each of these traits that some badguys have, but many (actually most) don't. Very rarely will you see an encounter consisting of a mighty warrior teamed up with a powerful spellcaster and a high-mobility individual (like a rogue or monk). I'm not sure about you, but the sky doesn't rain wizards and clerics who prepared spells just to fight your party in my games. A common situation is raiding an orc camp where the Shaman spent half his slots on divination & conjuring ... y'know, spells they actually use on a day-to-day basis to help their tribe? Protection from X is great in combat, but hey, they don't get obliterated by adventurers every Thursday, so why waste a slot on it today? Last I heard the ability to detect impending doom (like adventurers looking for trouble) was a 9th level spell anyway, and a few combat spells are usually enough for any "eventuallity", when backed up with orcish muscle and steel. Fact is, adventurers are the ones who go out spoiling for enough trouble to be combat-ready 24/7, not the guy whose lair they're stumbling into. Not sure about you, but when I DM that's how I make my guys, and they're still a tough fight. Sure, some of the time the party does something dumb like fight some trogs and one escapes to warn the high priest, who THEN goes all-out in prep and goes after them next day. But that's something that happens every one out of 4 or 5 fights, the remaining majority of battles being 100% perfect for something like a well-chosen summons spell. As for the spellcraft argument, you pick the tools for the job. I'm facing a near equal level caster? I can either summon a bunch of things to hold action & disrupt the spell with attacks, or summon a good grappler to ruin the caster's day, or something(s) with nice high SR, the higher the better. I wouldn't summon rats for SR because I'm not a moron. I respectfully request for you to not imply that I am one. And if you want to see what REAL summons can do, play a Conjurer/Alienist. |
| Polaris02-18-06, 03:57 AM | Malignor, I never said you were an idiot. However, you seemed to think that I am one and worse if you thought that I wouldn't shoot down that SR argument. Protection from X and Circle are good universal spells because they not only protect in combat, but they also help against domination effects and saves. Even in the safty of his tribe, I can't imagine an Orcish Shaman not having at least one of these available. Good Grappler? You've never heard of Freedom of Movement then. After 7th level, Grappling is almost useless against many casters. [And since Freedom of Movement has a duration of 10min per level, you can count on it being up.] As for being prepared, in the classic dungeon crawl (which is what the game is balanced around doncha know), the Party is the INTRUDER and the NPCS/Monsters will determine WHEN and WHERE encounters take place. That means the NPCs will be buffed up and ready to go and the party generally can't afford to be except for long term buffs. That's another reason Summons are generally sub-optimal. Cantankerous, Again you refer to a very specific situation. That's my point. Summons are SITUATIONAL spells and that's why they *generally* aren't worth memorizing. -Polaris |
| Cantankerous02-18-06, 04:05 AM | No, they generally ARE worth memorizing because this was ONLY a single example. There are however a PLENTITUDE of Mosnsters available to the Monster Summoning spells. Each of those has IT'S own abilities and capabilities that a smart player can use. THUS the Monster Summong spells, in the hands of a smart Player, may be the most GENERALLY capable and broad based and versatile spells in the Core system at the least. Isshia |
| Polaris02-18-06, 04:19 AM | No, they generally ARE worth memorizing because this was ONLY a single example. There are however a PLENTITUDE of Mosnsters available to the Monster Summoning spells. Each of those has IT'S own abilities and capabilities that a smart player can use. THUS the Monster Summong spells, in the hands of a smart Player, may be the most GENERALLY capable and broad based and versatile spells in the Core system at the least. Isshia That would all be true except that: 1. The abilities/creatures you get are FAR too weak for the levels in which you finally get them to be generally useful. 2. It takes too damn long to cast the spell for the spell to be generally worth casting. This is a big problem. 3. Summons are too damn easy to counter. This is another huge one. Protection from X and Circle are (or should be becaus they are on every caster's spell list AFAIK) common as dirt and they counter Summons completely....and protection from X is a first level spell! What's worse an Area dispell (which is often a good spell to use against a buffed party ANYWAY) has a good chance of getting rid of all your summons (and SR does not protect). 4. They don't last long enough to be useful. This is especially true at low levels. In short, Summons are a bit like Wish. It's a good idea that hypothetically has some great uses (and in some cases does), but generally is overpriced for what you get. Summons need a little help to be generally worth casting. There is a REASON you don't see most casters use Summons. -Polaris |
| Gnarl02-18-06, 04:33 AM | A spell caster that doesn't have protection from X or circle of protection available and usually UP in a potentially hostile situation is a complete IDIOT. The spell does too much so it is not a very viable tactic against most magic using foes (and that's a large percentage esp at higher CRs). As I explained, it is dead easy for said casters to both recognize (and thus warm) and PREPARE for your summons long before you finish it (and may well disrupt it). Protection from X is must have, that's for sure. But I find it boring to use. I guess that makes me an idiot :D. Some people have fun with sub optimal choices. Everybody know that all choices aren't equally good, whether it be with feats, classes, prestige classes or spell selection. The more I read your posts, the more I'm thinking, these guys know the rules like the back of their hand. They have counters for nearly every situation and the DM messes around with monster feats and add classe levels with optimal choices just to keep things interrested. That's cool, I personaly wish I could find some other players to start one of those campaigns. But there aren't that many out there. Either because the players are stupid, or just have better things to do than read d&d books all the time. Of course summon monsters is not optimal, far from it. But it's fun and it isn't that bad in a non optimal play. Everybody knows that Recitation or Black Tentacles are so much better than a lousy dire wolf, but that doesn't make the spell crap. As a side note, you know that all non instantaneous spell are useless right? Any spellcaster that doesn't memorize at least one dispel magic is an idiot. ;) |
| Cantankerous02-18-06, 04:45 AM | Helas' Player: "Ok, I'm including Monster Summoning VI on my list for today." DM (poor old me): *mumbled under the breath* "Oh boy, what do we get hit with today that short circuits the planned encounters today?" A simple Monster Summonign VI is not a simple sixth level spell. It's possible just to cast Monster Summoning VI with it and get alot of versatility out of it because of what the summoned monsters themselves can do, but now, read the spell and you find out that it's also possible to use it to cast a slightly enhanced (1d3 arrive) Monster Summoning V spell with it, without stating that ahead of time, just deciding it on the fly, or a more than slightly enhanced (1d4+1 arrive) Monster Summoning IV with it. Or, she can broaden her choices further by summoning advanced versions, or even non-advanced versions, of LESSER summoned monsters. Yeah gods! Now, of course, EACH of the various beings she might call up with those two variants of this self same spell, that does not need to be anymore detailed ahead of time, EACH have their own differing abilities. I'm going to throw a couple of dozen ghasts at the PCs. in one encounter, so, what might she do with this ONE bloody spell. Well, she might throw out 1d4+1 Lantern Archons that will stay above the whole thing and snipe with those light rays, round after round, impervious to anything the ghasts can do to them. Ok, that's only a maximum of 10d6 per round, but for 11 (if the caster is just 11th level) rounds that's more than enough. Though the chances of doing that much are light (no pun intended) that's a potential one hundred and ten d6 of damage kicked out by these impervious creatures. It doesn't matter that they have only 4 HPs if they can't be hit because they're 25 feet in the air above the battle field. Maybe she'll just summon a Large Fire Elemental or something like that. They'll happily ignore the paralysis attack of the ghasts on average will do ONE point of damage per succesful attack against them and take a hell of alot more than that themselves for being stupid enough to try to attack it at all, plus they BURN, plus the elemental will likely crumple one opponent per strike, every time he swings on one of the Ghasts. Ok, well, if she thinks of these things at the time, she deserves the advantages they bring. On to the next planned encounter. I've got that young adult green dragon planned. Much tougher! 17HD worth of flying, gas breathing monster. Nice. And there's those blamed elementals again, this time a large air elemental maybe. It might not last long, but gads, the dragon is treated as a size category smaller while it's in the air for things needing size for effectiveness. THIS aint good! That blasted elemental, which will be immune to the dragons chlorine gas attack if it tries that, MIGHT be able to take this big bugger straight into the ground... HARD... if the dragon fails it's save. Not likely but wow would that put a different spin on the combat! Heck for that matter the Bralani with her bow and her own ability to fly and lightning bolts and yadda, yadda, yadda, can be a damend good choice. Come on man. What other sixth level spell will so effectively allow you to respond in so many possible ways to so many possible situations? The problem with Monster Summonings aren't there lack of general utility. It's there ability to do alot of damage all at once...usually. In a truly General sense they may be the best spells in the book. Isshia |
| Cantankerous02-18-06, 04:54 AM | 3. Summons are too damn easy to counter. This is another huge one. Protection from X and Circle are (or should be becaus they are on every caster's spell list AFAIK) common as dirt and they counter Summons completely....and protection from X is a first level spell! What's worse an Area dispell (which is often a good spell to use against a buffed party ANYWAY) has a good chance of getting rid of all your summons (and SR does not protect). Not true at all. This does not, for instance, stop flying creatures from dropping large heavy objects on the defender. Nor does it stop any other distance attacks... or other ways of making their attack reach you. Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by summoned creatures. It does not prevent the creatures from affecting you in any other way. Like the Bralani's lightning bolts for insatnce. or it's bow. Nor, for that matter, does it protect you from the huge conflagration started by the Fire Elemental that got summoned. Or form any of a massive number of other abilities and effects of these creatures. IT DOES require that you think outside the box though, something far fewer power gamers are good at than they like to think they are. Isshia |
| Polaris02-18-06, 04:57 AM | Cantankerous, Nah, that's easy if I wanted to foil the spell. I would simply make sure that all the monsters had spell support, were protected by Prot X (or better yet circles of X) or even more likely both. It's dead easy to justify too. Prot X and Circle X are as common as dirt, even via items. Read the various spell lists if you doubt me and it completely negates summon. Summon is just too damn easy to nix. -Polaris |
| BW022202-18-06, 05:03 AM | Polaris, Nope. Let's look at it. A fifth level wizard will have maxxed concentration and probably a decent (at least +2) Con .... The fifth level wizard can defensively cast with impunity. ... Likewise an Ogre will have two feats. CLEAVE anybody? Bye-bye summons (esp when combined with Power-Attack, it's prerequisite). Says who? Not all casters take concentration. The DMG sorceror has only a +4 and the druid +6? And the fiendish creatures might say... ready attacks? Normal ogres don't have cleave. However, even if it can combat cast, I bet it's next spell will be directed against the summoned creatures and not the PCs? If Summons were better, then I'd agree. It is true that the sorcerer gets hosed by the lack of general use spells. Unfortunately, Summon is just not good enough to justify a valuable slot. In your opinion. You are forgetting the Hill Giant has CLEAVE and POWER ATTACK. With a Bison's terrible AC, your Hill-Giant will take it out in one attack and still get another one off (with Cleave). Ogres don't have cleave, so that is still 2-5 rounds to get passed the creatures. It still takes at least a round for the hill giant to get through them - and it only moves 5'. Moreover, the Hill Giant is an equipment user which means that if he has treasure like magical armor, he will be wearing it. Thus the Hill Giant can probably ignore the bison and kill the fighter or simply kill the Bison in one shot and still get a cleave on the fighter. We are talking blocking here. He can't beat on the fighter because presumably the caster put the bison or badgers between the party and the hill giant. The idea it to make the hill giant waste a round (or more) beating on something other than the fighter (and other party members) take other actions. For example, drinking a potion of displacement or something. BTW, no. I do not agree that one third level spell (that takes way too long to cast) is better than a half-dozen curing spells after combat. CLW wands are dirt cheap and Minor Vigor wands are just as cheap and even better. Consumables are never cheaper than spells. There also exists many campaigns where magic is not freely available for purchase. And your fighter is always going to vote for the option where he doesn't need the healing. What if the hill giants crits? Maybe. In a dungeon a bison is more trouble than it's worth. In an open field, a Bison is effectively useless. That reduces your scenarios drastically. No. In either case it blocks a 10x10' area. You can't be charged, folks take at least an extra round to get to you, you have cover from missile weapons, etc. Since when? A cleric has 2+Int skill points per level. That's enough (if human) for spellcraft, knowledge religion, and concentration. Anything more is pure gravy for a cleric. A cleric has a strong incentive to get maxxed out spellcraft by EPIC levels. In addition, the cleric MAY have an ally...... Clerics have a ton of skills which they might wish to have. Not all clerics exist with the optimal combat build. Many clerics don't take spellcraft since they want thinks like diplomacy or heal. However, put a celestial lion next to someone and it doesn't mater how many ranks in concentration you have, there aren't a lot of spells they can cast while grappled. I did not insult you personally or otherwise... You said, "I guess you don't use the maneuverability rules then." That is sarcasic and insulting. You have also started YELLING in your posts. Perhaps this was not your intent, which I why I let it slide, but I doubt you could possibly not be insulted if I started my sentances with "I guess you..." followed by some sarcastic assumption about not following the rules. You are far better off with fly, mass fly, air walk, ect. You keep coming up with spell after spell which is better, but only in a specific case. How many spells do you have? The point of the spell is that you don't need all these spells. Summon monster is an army knife type spell. Yes, you are better off with an entire tool-shed, but you can't always have everything. Well that depends, doesn't it? Given by the time the spells last long enough, mass movement spells exist anyway (or the Druid can wildshape to the appropraite form) color my singularly unimpressed. I said, get you over the wall or across the moat. I didn't say the entire party. Of course mass fly is better than having a hippogriff carry one person over the wall. However, even 5 rounds of a summon III spell is enough to keep the fighter from drowning if he falls in the moat. Read the rules on VERBAL components again. You have to cast with a loud, firm voice. Base Listen Check DC: ZERO. That's modified by distance of course, but it just means that the creatures inside the room can spring the ambush while you are summoning the creature....and then you are SOL. For that matter (if the creatures inside made a spellcraft and know what you are doing), they can ignore the creature. The creature will NOT attack unless it has directions to do so. I'll try this one more time. Appearantly I haven't explained the situation. A group of buy guys are inside a room. They have set up tables to hide behind, have a nasty pit trap in the center of the room, oil ready to be poured from the ceiling, archers around the outside of the room behind furnature, have caltrops laid out in front of them, etc., etc. Now if the party walks into the room they are ambushed. They don't necessarily have buff spells up, they may get surprised, caught flat-footed, filled with arrows, fall into traps, have burning oil dropped on them, have to fight folks with cover, etc. However, the party is outside of the room. They suspect a trap or ambush. They summon a bison and sent him in the room. Of course the bad guys hear them casting. However, they are inside the room and the party is outside of the room. When they hear the casting, they can certainly rush out of the room -- leave all their defenses -- and exist the room in single file through the entranceway -- or they can wait for the bison to enter the room and slaughter it. Either way, the party avoids the ambush. They either fight the folks outside of the room as they exit one at a time, or they get warning and can put up buff spells, wait out the bad guys, go in invisible, find a back entrance, etc. 50% miss chance IF THE PERSON IS THERE AT ALL. See Invisible is lower level and lasts much longer and is much better overall. For that matter an AoE would be better. The person is there. The fiendish wolf has scent. MM p315 "Whenever the creature comes within 5 feet of the source, the creature pinpoints the source's location." Move a few creatures with scent across a room and the source is pinpointed. The wolf then bites at the square (and whether is hits or not), you can target that square with arrows, spells, etc. Again. Yelling isn't necessary. Yes, detect invisibility would be nice, but... so would all the other spells which you keep bringing up. Sorry, but maybe you don't have all those spells. I've yet to see anyone that does. Summon monster isn't as good as fly, see invisibility, darkvision, arcane eye, and other the other spells you keep mentioning. However, personally, I've never seen anyone have all these spells you keep mentioning. Who said anything about spells? Your barbarian could hack the door down. Arcane Eye is better for scouting (and so is your party rogue or anyone with maxxed out Hide/Move-Silently with the gear to back it up). Open Locks deserves a very honorable mention. Rogues are USEFULL. Again, I guess I'm not explaining things clearly enough. You need to get the door open. You don't have your rogue and barbarian next to you, they are down the hallway covering your back from the army of trolls coming towards you. You need to break the door down to stop the evil troll-priest from sacrificing the princess to the crocodile god. If there was always someone else to do something, they wouldn't need you. A spell caster that doesn't have protection from X or circle of protection available and usually UP in a potentially hostile situation is a complete IDIOT. Then there must be a lot of "idiots" out there because lots of folks don't have that spell. Clerics maybe a good chance, but many take shield of faith or other spells where the AC bonus goes up with levels. Druids can't take either spell. Sorcerors, extremely rare that one would use a limited spell slot for such a spell. Of course most wizards would go for a mage armor first. As I explained, it is dead easy for said casters to both recognize (and thus warm) and PREPARE for your summons long before you finish it (and may well disrupt it). Yes, they may disrupt it - same as any other full-round spell. There are ways to get around that. However, they honestly can't prepare for it, unless they have some really specific spells. They don't even know what you are going to summon or where. Even if they have such specific spells, you are likely no worse off. You both 'waste' an initiative. In years of playing D&D, the I can count the number of times I've seen a full-round spell distrupted on one hand. It's not so easy. Typically, casters are at the back of the party. They aren't easily targetted when they are the last ones through the doorway. Few monster-type encounters have ranged attacks or offensive spells. Many casters also have simple defensive spells which makes them hard to hit -- mirror image, invisibility, etc. Finally, most casters are smart enough not to use such spells out in the open and facing a line of archers. My point is that druids cast full-round summon spells all the time in combat. Mine certainly do. I don't see any reason why it would be any harder for a non-druid to cast full-round summoning spells in combat? As for Druids summon stuff all the time? Yes they do, especially critters with special powers (unicorns were a favorte of mine). That is because they don't pay for it! I don't see why a druid pays for it anymore than a cleric, wizard, or sorceror would. A cleric can turn it into a cure spell, a wizard can put it on a scroll, and a sorceror can cast another spell if it isn't useful. It's more useful for the druid - since the critters are tougher -- but I see no massive hardship for a caster to take a single summon monster III or IV in memory. I have a cleric who routinely takes the spell. Sometimes she uses it, usually it becomes a cure. However, it's great when combined with a darkness or silence spell or when putting a large creature against a rear spellcaster. It is also a great utility knife spell. I don't take darkvision, scent, detect traps, airwalk, fly, break down down, swim over moat, light me a fire, distract archers for a couple of rounds, block that ogre, grapple that spellcaster, etc., etc. There are few spells as flexibile as a single summon monster spell. |
| Polaris02-18-06, 05:05 AM | Cantankerous, A little snideness in the morning I see. Magic Circle DOES prevent summons from entering within 10 feet which FORCES missile attacks and spell attacks (and the +2 saves certainly does apply against those). What's more, most summons DO have to make physical contact to be effective or at least within 10' of you. So YES, Magic Circles DO (de facto) negate the effectiveness of summons. Try again. Notice that I am not even addressing things like Area Effect Dispell Magic which is a great opening move against a buffed party ANYWAY (summons or not) and also hoses summons. There is more. Summons are just too easy to counter -Polaris |
| Cantankerous02-18-06, 05:36 AM | No, no snideness. None necessary. Any Player just got to stop thinking inside the box to use these spells VERY effectively. Answer the main question though if you will, since we know ANY spell effect can be countered, what spell is more broad based at any given level than the Monster Summoning spell? It's more versatile because it IS diverse. And as pointed out, you don't have to, as a Summoned Monster, be a simple attack fiend. They have brains to, many of them, that are the equals of or even superior to the PCs. Sure, at first level the Celestial Dog isn't going to stop any raging Minotaurs, but neither is a magic missile and BOTH do the same base damage...except the Celestial Dog does it mutliple times probably. Spell resistant, acid, cold and electricity resistant, certainly able to "fetch". Let's see a Magic Missile do that one. Or to, if you're really paranoid and a bit cold hearted, check to see if that section of hallway in front of you is trapped. I remember a poor little Celestial Monkey that set off a "collapsing hallway" trap because the party Wizard had misread a warning (failed Decipher Script check) and thought that "minor lightnings" would leap from the walls. With the little Monkey's immunity to it, the party thought that it would be a smart way to see where it was coming from and such to better avoid it. Unfortunately the half effaced (by time) scribblings said that the stones of the ceiling would "fall like lightning upon the heads" of any intruders. The little paw twitching for an instant from under the 3d8 of damage it took from the falling blocks before it disappeared was poignant though. My daughter's (who was 13 at the time and the Player of the Wizard who failed that Decipher Script check) character wept (the Player actually got misty eyed) and Helas' (the caster remember) spent three levels trying "atone" for it, even though, of course, no atonement (or Atonement either) was necessary. And this is another great example of thinking outside the box and how INCREDIBLY capable and flexible this spell is. The whole party might easily have been wiped out by that falling ceiling trap (all 2nd level back then) except for Haclan and he would have been near death and unable to do anything but run from the pair of ghouls attracted by the trap going off. Instead they mopped the ghouls up with a vengence, angry as hell about what had happened to their "mascot". *lol* They are not big damage spells, but again, smart use makes them MASSIVELY broad based and useful, as you put it, "in General". Isshia |
| Centauri02-18-06, 05:44 AM | What about spell resistance? I'm too tired to jump through all the links to figure this out, but it seems like there's at least a chance that a summoned creature could punch through a Protection spell. Lots of them have spell resistance and I found a couple on the 5th level list that would have a chance of getting through a Protection cast by a 9th level caster. If the Protection comes from a potion of minimum caster level, they'll have a quite a good chance of getting through. Better, anyway, than most of the creatures on the Summon Nature's Ally lists. |
| Polaris02-18-06, 05:52 AM | What about spell resistance? I'm too tired to jump through all the links to figure this out, but it seems like there's at least a chance that a summoned creature could punch through a Protection spell. Lots of them have spell resistance and I found a couple on the 5th level list that would have a chance of getting through a Protection cast by a 9th level caster. If the Protection comes from a potion of minimum caster level, they'll have a quite a good chance of getting through. Better, anyway, than most of the creatures on the Summon Nature's Ally lists. If you wanted to settle for ONE summon, then the best you could do is SR 19 which would only be able to penetrate the SR of a 9th level caster 45% of the time. When you consider that most NPC casters will be 1-2 levels higher AND you consider that Spell Penetration (and greater Spell Penetration) are not uncommon feats, it gets worse in a hurry. What's more, ONE summon is generally not what you want to do. To get the most out of your summon, you want to summon at least two, and that means using a beefed up version of Summon III and getting d4+1 summons.....but in turn makes it impossible to pentrate typical protection from X with SR. The point being (especially when the enemy caster can react while you are still casting the summon), SR is almost non-existant for summons. -Polaris |
| Cantankerous02-18-06, 06:42 AM | Another thing about Monster Summonings... they sure as heck don't need to be summoned right next to the party and start from there. We've had more than one situation where because of a crevice or a wall that would have had to be climbed, or the like, the opponents weren't in close, where the party uber tank, (Haclan, Barbarain supreme) could smack them. Without the crevace or the other, like a twenty foot tall wall which a bunch of kobolds were sheltering behind, they would have been little problem, but able to pop up, fire and then drop back next round made them a pain in the butt with those nasty little poisoned arrows. But sticking a Celestial Grizzly Bear behind them them... that changed the whole face of the encounter. Or this handy little number, conjuring it into being ABOVE your foe. Imagine if you will the effect of a couple of thousand pounds of celestial bison backside landing on an Ankheg from 15' above it's head. Can you say OUCH? One third level spell... one very dead CR*3 creature... but even without the added injury of having fallen on it's opponent, it's one that might well have handed the ankheg it's chitonous butt to begin with, between it's own acid resistance and a 5 point damage reduction, more base hit points of it's own and a good attack, especially when charging. Mssr leBison Celestial can both dish it out and take it pretty well. On a charge it's doing a nice little "bull rush" (even if it is a cow bison ;) ) of course as an added extra. He's a damned tough CR*3 creature. This was another example thinking outside the box again. And much more handy than a 5d6 fireball would have been in a forest that was as dry as kindling from a long drought. Isshia |
| Broken vacuum02-18-06, 07:36 AM | If you wanted to settle for ONE summon, then the best you could do is SR 19 which would only be able to penetrate the SR of a 9th level caster 45% of the time. When you consider that most NPC casters will be 1-2 levels higher AND you consider that Spell Penetration (and greater Spell Penetration) are not uncommon feats, it gets worse in a hurry. Where does this "most NPC casters will be 1-2 levels higher" come from? As a general rule people with the same CR as you have levels, have caster levels equal to or lower than you. If you only face encounters with single creatures of higher CR than your level would indicate, you are playing a rather one sided and non-standard game. As with any spell, the Summon Monster line of spells require the caster to know what he is doing. As an adventurer you will often face encounters with no opposing spell caster or opposing spellcasters of decidedly lower level than yourself. If you do not, your game is far outside the rather loose standards of the D&D game. Now, you are free to play the game however you want, but the sub-par performance of a spell under very specific and unusual circumstances does not make it a bad spell; it only means the spell is unsuited to the situation. As has been pointed out a memorised Summon Monster spell can be used in a number of ways depending on what situation you face. In or out of combat. As with any spell of great versatility there is almost always a specific spell that can perform better in a particular situation, but that is the trade-off for not having to memorise a host of different spells. Unless everyone metagames like crazy that is a very decent trade-off. As for the Protection from X spells, they are a good defence against summoned creatures, but only against melee attacks. As levels go up there are a number of summonable creatures that can attack from range. And even creatures that cannot hit, can perform a number of valuable services like blocking, healing, buffing and so on. Then there is the fact that some casters are limited in which protection spells they can actually cast. That evil cleric cannot cast Protection from Evil and there is a pretty good chance that his protection spell is a Protection from Good, which does not help against evil summons. |
| Cantankerous02-18-06, 08:34 AM | True there. We've had an encounter between Helas and her cavalcade of Summoned Creatures and a Lich with Protection from Good going that serves as a good example of why when your Celestian Griffon can't pounce, you simply Summon up an Elelemntal that ignores that spell totally, walks in and introduces your undead buttocks to the concept of "the Burn" or reminds you that an attack from an Earth elemental is definately blunt DAMAGE. Isshia |
| Cantankerous02-18-06, 08:42 AM | disregard---double post |
| Roxlimn02-18-06, 09:50 AM | Just a small pipe in: You can't actually summon creatures into thin air. You have to summon them on a surface. Sometimes, you can summon them on surfaces that are above your target and then get them to hurl themselves off of it, but it's by no means a common event. |
| Polaris02-18-06, 02:00 PM | Assuming you had the levels to summon a celestial Dire Bear, then the Kobolds almost certainly had character class levels and that means your summoner should have resembled a PIN CUSHION What's more, as Rox mentioned, unless you have open solid ground to place a summons, the spell fails. That's another reason why Circle against X is so nasty and why manueverability really cuts into the effectiveness of flying summons. Finally there is something ALL of you have neglected thus far. Summoning spells are all aligned spells In the first place it means that a typical good cleric can not use about half the summon list (including some of the best option)....and in the second any summon of an evil creature is an EVIL ACT (just as any casting of an evil spell is an evil act, good spell is a good act, etc etc). That can quickly screw over your cleric and it does greatly reduce the utility of the Summon spell. As for the lich, it could put up Circle against Law or Chaos easy enough. WIth one action if it sees a summon coming, it can reduce the possibly alignment hole for a summon to ONE and if the lich has knowledge religion (see above), it can INSURE that it will always be shielded from your summons. -Polaris |
| Arlechino02-18-06, 02:01 PM | Hi all, It seems like a lot of the debate is about how typical certain encounters are. Just for fun, I looked up the mini-adventure The Cave of Spiders available from the D&D website. It's an adventure for 9th level characters. It's available here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20041126a I just picked it because it was the first 9th level adventure I noticed. The combat encounters are: 3 bugbear guards (warrior 3) + 1 aranea (there are 2 encounters of this type) 1 ettercap+2 huge monstrous hunting spiders (there are 2 encounters of this type) 1 bugbear guard (warrior 3) 6 sleeping bugbear guards (warrior 3) 4 araneas 1 aranea (sorceror 5) Since these encounters haven't been created as a way of encouraging or discouraging MS spells, they might make a good test of how effective the spells are. In what ways would MS be useful or useless in each of these encounters? Use the stats presented in the encounters, and, if you want to get fancy, the terrain presented as well. |
| Centauri02-18-06, 02:02 PM | Just a small pipe in: You can't actually summon creatures into thin air. Unless they can fly. |
| Polaris02-18-06, 02:15 PM | Arlechina, All those Areanas START at third level sorcerers which means the final encounter is an 8th level sorcerer. It seems pretty fair to say that summons won't do especially well. -Polaris |
| Arlechino02-18-06, 02:24 PM | Arlechina, All those Areanas START at third level sorcerers which means the final encounter is an 8th level sorcerer. It seems pretty fair to say that summons won't do especially well. -Polaris I'd like to see a more in-depth analysis. You're right that the last encounter has spells like an 8th level sorceror. I've just looked at their spells, though, and noticed that none of the araneas have spells from the protection from _ chains. It might be that monster summoning are ineffective in some fights in this scenario, and effective in others. I'd like to see people applying their thoughts about MS's effectiveness to encounters which weren't created to prove or disprove its effectiveness. |
| Ra-Tiel02-18-06, 04:49 PM | Hi. === Usually I keep away from discussions where a single participant is such a strong, stubborn, iron willed defender of his own opinion, telling the others being wrong and insisting on his and only his point of view. But because I played an exalted drow favored soul (think of that as you may, I liked the character) up to level 12 who had each and every summon monster spell known, I think I'll put my experiences into the thread as well. --- First, I'd like to see Polaris bring forth a single spell with an equivalent utility as the summon monster spells. A spell that can distract your enemies heal your party provide means of tracking/scent carry you over obstacles retrieve something from lethal terrain attack your opponents provide access to a vast array of spells via (sp) or (su) abilities give access to various skills and finally replace selected party members in a limited fashion. Thank you. --- Then I'd like to say, that with Augment Summoning you can summon a celestial elephant with a strength score of 34 and a grapple modifier of +28 at level 13. Any not specifically for grappling optimized melee combatant - and even those to some degree - will have troubles with this one, even more any class with less than full BAB progression. A comparable level 13 monk with a strength score of 18(base)+3(levels)+4(item)=25(total) and Improved Grapple has "only" a +20 modifier to his grapple checks. A level 13 half-orc barbarian with a strength score of 20(base)+3(levels)+4(item)+6(greater rage)=33(total) and Improved Grapple has a +28 modifier to his grapple check, but the rage will expire before the elephant vanishes. Add a bull's strength, [greater] heroism or stoneskin to the elephant, and even the barbarian is in trouble. --- Not to neglect are the roleplaying opportunities the various summon monster spells provide. You could use them to intimidate a captive enemy (summon something nasty, let it flail its' chains, claws, weapons, spells, whatever around, and threaten to leave your captive alone in the room with the beast for a minute or so...), distract somebody (summon a creature with Extend Spell, order it to wait a few moments, then let it "fake" somebody breaking into the shop/prison/...) or even to comfort someone (summon a lantern archon with Extend Spell to lighten up the mood of a child whose mother was abducted) As far as my memory serves me, no other single spell has the same range of applications. --- Another use of summon monster is to make money. For example, summon monster IV allows you to summon a lantern archon. A lantern archon has Continual Flame Evocation [Light] Level: Clr 3, Sor/Wiz 2 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Object touched Effect: Magical, heatless flame Duration: Permanent Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No A flame, equivalent in brightness to a torch, springs forth from an object that you touch. The effect looks like a regular flame, but it creates no heat and doesn’t use oxygen. A continual flame can be covered and hidden but not smothered or quenched. Light spells counter and dispel darkness spells of an equal or lower level. Material Component You sprinkle ruby dust (worth 50 gp) on the item that is to carry the flame. as a Spell-Like Abilities (Sp) Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component. A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell: Using a spell-like ability while threatened provokes attacks of opportunity. It is possible to make a Concentration check to use a spell-like ability defensively and avoid provoking an attack of opportunity. A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and to being dispelled by dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. A spell-like ability usually has a limit on how often it can be used. A spell-like ability that can be used at will has no use limit. For creatures with spell-like abilities, a designated caster level defines how difficult it is to dispel their spell-like effects and to define any level-dependent variables (such as range and duration) the abilities might have. The creature’s caster level never affects which spell-like abilities the creature has; sometimes the given caster level is lower than the level a spellcasting character would need to cast the spell of the same name. If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a spell-like ability is: 10 + the level of the spell the ability resembles or duplicates + the creature’s Cha modifier. Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster’s spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order. Some creatures are actually sorcerers of a sort. They cast arcane spells as sorcerers do, using components when required. In fact, an individual creature could have some spell-like abilities and also cast other spells as a sorcerer. Therefore you could take (your casterlevel - 1) * (# of your level 4 spell slots) torches and have them enchanted as Everburning torch 110 gp 1 lb. and make 109gp 9sp 9cp profit per torch you sell. You could even sell them at significantly less than the market price of 110gp, eg for 25gp, and still make a huge profit with a few castings of a mid-level spell. And that does not account for the ability to use higher-level summon monster spells to summon more than a single lantern archon, or to use Extend Spell, Repeat Spell or other metamagic feats on it. --- Of course summon monster is not the "ultimate-i-win-and-pwn-you-all!!111!1337megaUBERkewl-spell-of-DOOOOOOOOM-from-outer-space(tm)", but to blantantly say it's crap and not worth preparing is by itself a completely wrong assessment of the spell's function and abilities. But that's just my opinion. --- To the original poster: if you think you can handle the versality this series of spells gives you, and your DM doesn't optimize and metagame each and every enemy to specifically counter your tactics, then go for it! If you just want to blow stuff up or have an antagonistic DM, I'd advise you looking for some other spells. === Have a nice day, _Ra-Tiel. |
| Arlechino02-18-06, 05:02 PM | Just a quick notes about making money with lantern archons- From the SRD Magic Overview When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire So it doesn't work. Clever idea, though. |
| malignor02-18-06, 05:21 PM | I'll give it a go.1) 3 bugbear guards (warrior 3) + 1 aranea (there are 2 encounters of this type) - Let's say I have a really badly built wizard, level 9. I went crazy for a day and took every spell in levels 1-5 as Monster Summons. - 4x0, 4x1, 4x2, 3x3, 2x4, 1x5 per day, plus my bare bones Int of 15 gives me a 1st and 2nd. - I have 5 ranks in knowledge arcana (minimum to get the spellcraft synergy), so I have +7 to know arcana. Taking 10 on knowledge lets me know the basics about 7 HD magical beasts... like an Aranea. Thus I know they're arcane spellcasting shapechanging spider people. 1) This encounter is worth a 4th level spell. I'll try out 1d3 dretches (say the average of 2), who will immediately walk in and cast their Stinking Clouds into the room (DC 13). The Aranea will have to make 2 Fort saves with its +5, and the bugbear warriors with their +6. Each round, the Aranea has a 57% chance to fail one or both saves, and the bugbears 51%. Thus I've already weakened half the encounter down to partial actions each round, likely taking down 3/4 of the enemy to movement actions for the next few rounds. They'll wait near the edge of the cloud with full concealment from the gas and hold their action to scratch up anyone who stumbles out. Then when it disperses the Dretches will both try to scare the Aranea (will DC 12; +4 will for 57% chance of being frightened for -2 to everything). 3rd and thereafter (the cloud disperses and nobody has concealment anymore), they engage anyone who's not scared or sickened. They have a 55% chance to hit a typical Aranea with either of its claws, or 40% to hit a bugbear. They have DR and some good resistances but they'll last at most 2 rounds against a bugbear's attacks, or 3 against the Aranea. Still, they'll dish out some damage and weaken the enemy. Not a bad trade for a single Enervation or Shout spell (though Tentacles would be a terrific replacement, even if only usable for combat) Also, once the stinking cloud disperses (2 rounds later), I'd also use SMII to have 2 small spiders appear, flanking the Aranea within its own web. Both follow the Aranea and attack whenever it uses its standard action (be it spell or attack). If things get bad, I'd pull out my SMV and call up a pair of fiendish dire wolves to tank for me as I make a break for it. Now as for the rest of my party, that's entirely up to them. If there's a barbarian in the group, he'd charge into the stinking cloud and likely make the save while enraged (average/below average Fort +9... 28% chance of failing either save each round, assuming base con 12 level 9 and enraged and not buffed) or the warriors will play smart and wait for the cloud to disperse and engage the weakened foes. I'd also like to add that everything I summoned there is resistant to fire. Having a few fire spells like burning hands would be nice, or even throw in a bunch of flasks of oil and light the place up. Ruins the Aranea's web and burns the bugbears too, while leaving your summons comfortably warm. |
| Ra-Tiel02-18-06, 05:35 PM | Hi. === @Arlechino: Just a quick notes about making money with lantern archons- From the SRD Magic Overview So it doesn't work. Clever idea, though. As always, this is open to interpretation. The quote from the SRD specifically refers to spells, and not "magical effects" or something like that. So it is a valid interpretation that (sp) and (su) abilities continue to work after the creature vanishes. What exactly does "expire" mean in that context? Is that expression explained in the DnD glossary? If you use the literal meaning (which would mean that the "effects" reach the end of their natural duration), when exactly does a permanent effect end? Can a permanent effect "expire" at all? Only to mention a few points. Of course you are correct that a DM acts well within the rules of the game to disallow this "trick", but the DM would also act well within the rules if he did allow it, as the rules are unclear in that. It would be a different issue if the SRD would say something like [...] When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all its' magical effects (no matter if spell, spell-like or supernatural ability) end as if mage's disjunction had been successfully cast on them (including abilities and effects normally not subject to this spell). [...] A wording similar to this would be obvious and not open for as much interpretation. === Greetings, _Ra-Tiel. |
| mrpopstar02-18-06, 06:56 PM | Correct me if I am wrong (I admittedly did not thoroughly read through this incredibly long and circular argument), but I find it rather curious that no one has mentioned the bard's ability to cast Summon Monster spells. As a reminder, bardic music effects also augment summoned allies. Is it worth considering that summoned creatures in the hands of a bard are +X in terms of battleprowess/skill-use when compared to the summons of other classes? Also, someone has argued that Protection from X spells are found on the list of all casters. It is not. The bard does not have Protection from X on his list. |
| Broken vacuum02-18-06, 07:27 PM | Finally there is something ALL of you have neglected thus far. Summoning spells are all aligned spells In the first place it means that a typical good cleric can not use about half the summon list (including some of the best option)....and in the second any summon of an evil creature is an EVIL ACT (just as any casting of an evil spell is an evil act, good spell is a good act, etc etc). That can quickly screw over your cleric and it does greatly reduce the utility of the Summon spell. Not neglected at all. And your friendly (or unfriendly) arcane caster does not care. He summons whatever he wants. The cleric's inability to use the spell to its fullest really is not a problem with the spell, but with the cleric. As for the lich, it could put up Circle against Law or Chaos easy enough. WIth one action if it sees a summon coming, it can reduce the possibly alignment hole for a summon to ONE and if the lich has knowledge religion (see above), it can INSURE that it will always be shielded from your summons. Of course a spellcaster can put up a protection spell and unless the summoner is a complete idiot, he will have considered that possibility. It is worth to note that each spell the opponent casts to protect himself from the summons is one action he does not use to attack the party. Again, as levels go up you get access to summons that can attack from range or, if the enemy caster is of sufficiently low level, that have SR enough that there is a decent shot of success. The point is, however, that if you just use the summon spells to get someone to damage your opponent you are not using them right. The protection spells only come into play when your summons attack your opponent in melee. If you for example use them for blocking of a narrow passage, that does not matter in the least. Or if you use them for offensive or defensive spellcasting or some nifty special abilities or just about anything else. Furthermore a protection spell only works as long as the recipient does not attack the creature in question. In any given situation there will be a number of summons that are ineffectual and probably also a number of summons that can be useful. A summoner should know what to summon when. This includes knowing how and when to cast a summon spell without getting clobbered by the opponents. |
| Kyuketsukiouji02-18-06, 08:18 PM | Having Circle against X up is actually the dumbest thing someone can do when faced with a summoner, since it pins you and any of your allies in place. Remember, you can't force abjurations against your target, so while you're allegedly "safe" in your little bubble of force, you can't take a single step towards the summoner. In particular, if you're a melee-dependant class, you've just hosed yourself utterly, since while you're pinned in place, the enemy can position himself, call up more stuff, and take you out at range. The only time the spell is worth it against a summoner is when your whole party can attack the spellcaster at range without major loss of efficiency (and, let's be honest, one wind wall usually hoses a lot of that). |
| Polaris02-19-06, 12:22 AM | Having Circle against X up is actually the dumbest thing someone can do when faced with a summoner, since it pins you and any of your allies in place. Remember, you can't force abjurations against your target, so while you're allegedly "safe" in your little bubble of force, you can't take a single step towards the summoner. In particular, if you're a melee-dependant class, you've just hosed yourself utterly, since while you're pinned in place, the enemy can position himself, call up more stuff, and take you out at range. The only time the spell is worth it against a summoner is when your whole party can attack the spellcaster at range without major loss of efficiency (and, let's be honest, one wind wall usually hoses a lot of that). That's not quite right, Kyu. 1. What you are NOT allowed to do is forced a summoned creature into a warded area. However, you generally don't have to. It's not an issue with Prot X (simply ignore the creature) and with Circle it is an easily preventable problem. You ARE allowed to attack the summoner and approach the summoner. It's the summoned creature that is off-limits. 2. You are fogetting that Magic Circle can ALSO be used to trap summoned creatures and the caster can choose at casting which option (outer protection or prison) to use. Magic Circle is THE premier anti-Summon spell. Unfortunately for Summon, it is also very good for so many other things that it is (or should be) common as dirt. So Melee classes aren't hosed at all. With Prot X, they can attack the Summoner just fine.....as long as they don't attack or FORCE contact (and RAW that's harder than it looks) with the summons. -Polaris Edit PS: Edit, Oh...almost forget. There is an additional benefit to Magic Circle. Any area WITHIN a magic circle is FORBIDDEN from legal target squares when you place your summons. That alone can really screw up a summoner especially since the square the summon comes in on must be able to support the summoned creature. |
| Gnarl02-19-06, 03:26 AM | and in the second any summon of an evil creature is an EVIL ACT (just as any casting of an evil spell is an evil act, good spell is a good act, etc etc). I didn't know that. Do you have a quote for this? |
| Soel Griffin02-19-06, 04:06 AM | Polaris is not the only one who thinks these spells are sub-optimal at best... I dislike them for other reasons as well. -They instill metagaming to the nth degree as the monsters become stats, and nothing more. -They have unimaginative design. (slapping the celestial and fiendish templates on some animals is just lousy. The planes indeed lose more wonder every time a celestial CRITTER answers a calling. Its just goofy!) -Summoning spells, unless a bond is struck, actually seem sort of evil to me. Cast a spell, a creature appears that is your SLAVE, and you just use it to spring traps, eat up enemy attacks, grapple something or if its lucky, cast its spells on you. And don't give me that stuff about summons not being "real" creatures. These aren't Illusions... The higher level versions are mechanically better as far as in comparison to the caster's level, but they still don't do much to address my other problems with the spells. |
| Broken vacuum02-19-06, 04:13 AM | 1. What you are NOT allowed to do is forced a summoned creature into a warded area. However, you generally don't have to. It's not an issue with Prot X (simply ignore the creature) and with Circle it is an easily preventable problem. You ARE allowed to attack the summoner and approach the summoner. It's the summoned creature that is off-limits. Again, the protection spells only protect you from melee attacks. Or to be more precise Protection from X protects you from the natural melee attacks of a summoned creature. Magic Circle against X protects you from melee attacks. None of these protect very well against ranged attacks or spells. Again, a summoner should know what his summons can and cannot do. 2. You are fogetting that Magic Circle can ALSO be used to trap summoned creatures and the caster can choose at casting which option (outer protection or prison) to use. No, it cannot. It only works on called creatures. I didn't know that. Do you have a quote for this? From the text describing the Cleric: Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells: A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions. And in the Summon Monster text: When you use a summoning spell to summon an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it is a spell of that type. The inability to cast spells of opposed alignment is an important restriction on clerics. |
| camble02-19-06, 04:18 AM | Hi all I would like to say I have made good use of summonings in the past even at lower levels. My group consisted of 2 rogues one fighter and me the party wizard I used celestial dogs a great deal to create backstabing oppurtunities when ever possible for the rogues and give me and the fighter of the group a bonus to hit. The dogs did little damage but allowed my party as a whole to deal more damage regularly. It became a running joke in my group because they where summoned pretty regularly. We had a lot of fun and it certainly became a regular pick on my spell list with that character. |
| Cantankerous02-19-06, 04:33 AM | Just a small pipe in: You can't actually summon creatures into thin air. You have to summon them on a surface. Sometimes, you can summon them on surfaces that are above your target and then get them to hurl themselves off of it, but it's by no means a common event. We use fairly detailed maps. The akheg in this was coming up out of the ground right under a hunters blind platform. He had been through that hole before and the PCs had it staked out. When he came up, Helas' Player pulled the Summoning during their "surprise round"... on to the platform, which could no more hold a ton plus of celestial bison than a piece of wet toilet paper will hold an egg suddenly placed on it. But, technicly, it IS solid ground. As I've said, I've got inventive Players. The last thing you want to do with such a group is stiffle that by hemming and hawing about what does and doesn't constitute solid ground. DM: Sorry, it has to be summoned on solid ground. Player 1: Hey, I was standing on it five minutes ago. You said it was sagging a bit from being old, but it was definately solid enough to hold me. DM: You've got a point. It isn't about to hold that ton of bison though. And the rest is history. She didn't have to convince it to jump. Gravity convinced it to fall. Isshia |
| Nom02-19-06, 05:13 AM | with Augment Summoning ... Add a bull's strengthbull's strength will do diddly squat, since the bonuses from Augment Summoning are enhancement bonuses. Basically, all your summons come with non-dispellable bull's strength and bear's endurance already on them. Of course, the summon itself is still dispellable. |
| Cantankerous02-19-06, 05:45 AM | Assuming you had the levels to summon a celestial Dire Bear, then the Kobolds almost certainly had character class levels and that means your summoner should have resembled a PIN CUSHION No on a couple of counts. Count one. Helas was 9th level at the time, with 7 Clerical and 2 Thaumaturgist levels. What she Summoned was (an Augmented) Celestial Brown Bear; a Celestial Grizzly since that is what a brown bear is. Count two. The nineteen Kobolds in question, atop the battlemented and crenalated (for their size, since the built it) wall were comprised of 14 Kobold/Warrior*1s (straight from the MM1) with shortbows and poisoned (DC*17 Str-2) arrows. Since this this upped their combat effectiveness signifigantly it made each one equal to CR*3/4. Added to this were a quartet of CR*2 Kobold/Rogue*2s and a Kobold/Sorcerer*5. All together I had this rated as a CR*12 encounter. A tough nut for a ECL*9 party. Count three. Helas was invisible. You know, when you know the spells well, you can find all kinds of interesting ways to use them. You can, for instance, use Summon Monster spells while invisible. And with Haclan bellowing like a wounded bull and kicking up a fuss, none of the Kobolds made the Listen roll to hear Helas cast that would have given them at least an approximate area to shoot towards. All in all this means, you might want to find out what you are talking about before stating that anyone should have resembled anything. What's more, as Rox mentioned, unless you have open solid ground to place a summons, the spell fails. That's another reason why Circle against X is so nasty and why manueverability really cuts into the effectiveness of flying summons. *sigh* See the answer to Rox. Finally there is something ALL of you have neglected thus far. Summoning spells are all aligned spells I've not neglected it at all. In the first place it means that a typical good cleric can not use about half the summon list (including some of the best option)....and in the second any summon of an evil creature is an EVIL ACT (just as any casting of an evil spell is an evil act, good spell is a good act, etc etc). That can quickly screw over your cleric and it does greatly reduce the utility of the Summon spell. Helas, as Good aligned, rarely ever summoned Evil creatures. Yes, doing so is an Evil action. Not that she was a Paladin, so a single or even a few Evil actions wouldn't have done a damned thing to her Alignment, especially since she was so conspicuosly Good almost all the time, but even so, any time she did, she over laoded on the altruistic actions as soon as possible afterwards. Even so though, so what? There are a plentitude of Good aligned creatures on the list. And Neutral aligned ones too. Elementals for instance. And for those few times that something more is needed, the others are still there. You just don't make a habit of it. No reduction in the utility of the spell is suffered at all really. As for the lich, it could put up Circle against Law or Chaos easy enough. WIth one action if it sees a summon coming, it can reduce the possibly alignment hole for a summon to ONE and if the lich has knowledge religion (see above), it can INSURE that it will always be shielded from your summons. Sure it can. If it wants to take the time putting up a Circle of Protection against Chaos, or Law is a viable option. Of course, they will only keep out either Chaotic or Lawful summoned creatures, as only Protection from Evil will keep out ALL summoned creatures, and a pretty simple spellcraft roll (DC*18 which better be pretty easy by the time you are playing tag with a Lich) will tell you if he's casting one. On the other hand, while he can sure tell the same way that you are casting, say, a Monster Summoning*5, it does NOT tell him which of the many possible monsters thus summonable is going to show up. Likewise, Know-Religion might tell him that you are a Worshipper of Trithereon, for instance, it will not tell him if you are Neutral Good, Chaotic Good or Chaotic Neutral in alignment yourself. And it can also not tell him that you aren't going to be a bad girl and Summon a Fiendish Girallon... that is if you aren't a Chaotic Neutral worshipper of Trithereon after all. Hmm, what has he excluded, just from the base lists, which are FAR from exhaustive? Well, his Spellcraft check told him you were getting ready to use Summon Monster *7. So, since you are also a worshipper of Trithereon he can exclude just one alignment set, Lawful Evil... probably... if you aren't going to be a bad girl. Well, that outs the Fiendish MegaRaptor and the Bone Devil, and everything else from a lower level that is Lawful Evil...probably. Well, so we cast our handy dandy Magic Circle vs Chaos. That actually DOES yoink some pretty nice critters. But let see what it leaves. *Lich thinking* First, it does still leave the Fiendish MegaRaptor and the Bone Devil and all the lower level Lawful Evil beings as well, but even leaving those aside; it leaves: One of Celestial elephant LG Avoral (guardinal) NG Celestial baleen whale NG Elemental, Huge (any) N Invisible stalker N Fiendish monstrous scorpion, Huge NE or 1d3 of one of the following Celestial polar bear LG Celestial orca whale NG Elemental, Large (any) N Janni (genie) N Fiendish monstrous centipede, Gargantuan NE Fiendish rhinoceros NE or 1d4+1 of one of the following Archon, hound LG Celestial brown bear LG Celestial giant stag beetle NG Celestial sea cat1 NG Celestial griffon CG Elemental, Medium (any) N Fiendish dire boar NE Fiendish shark, Huge NE Fiendish monstrous scorpion, Large NE Shadow mastiff NE Yeah, we might even trim out those NE creatures..maybe not, but It's possibility. And we aren't fighting underwater, or on a ship, so we'll get rid of the aqautic creatures too. So, now our list looks like this: One of Celestial elephant LG Avoral (guardinal) NG Elemental, Huge (any) N Invisible stalker N or 1d3 of one of the following Celestial polar bear LG Elemental, Large (any) N Janni (genie) N or 1d4+1 of one of the following Archon, hound LG Celestial brown bear LG Celestial giant stag beetle NG Celestial griffon CG Elemental, Medium (any) N Well there we go. We just cut that one spell down to a dozen possible outcomes; roughly half of which are protected from a lot of different spells and either Celestial or prototypicly Good in nature and will be bigger threats than they might otherwise have been to me. Of course this spell did nothing to stop the Huge earth Elemental she just DID summon and is Bull Rushing me. Damn. Isshia |
| Cantankerous02-19-06, 05:48 AM | I didn't know that. Do you have a quote for this? He is right about that. When you use a summoning spell to summon an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it is a spell of that type. Isshia |
| Broken vacuum02-19-06, 06:00 AM | Cantankerous: By RAW a good aligned cleric cannot summon an evil creature. No exceptions. See the quotes from the SRD in my earlier post in case you do not believe it. |
| Kyuketsukiouji02-19-06, 07:37 AM | That's not quite right, Kyu. 1. What you are NOT allowed to do is forced a summoned creature into a warded area. However, you generally don't have to. It's not an issue with Prot X (simply ignore the creature) and with Circle it is an easily preventable problem. You ARE allowed to attack the summoner and approach the summoner. It's the summoned creature that is off-limits. No, with Circle it's not an easily preventable problem, because you have a 20' bubble you can't push against a summoned creature. Good luck getting past that 10' wide bison in a corridor, to recycle an example, when you can't get closer than 10' to the bison without your Circle dropping. That's why the Circle is a bad choise. Protection from X is better, but then again, you need to cast the spell 4 times. 2. You are fogetting that Magic Circle can ALSO be used to trap summoned creatures and the caster can choose at casting which option (outer protection or prison) to use. Magic Circle is THE premier anti-Summon spell. Unfortunately for Summon, it is also very good for so many other things that it is (or should be) common as dirt. As others said, that's only for called outsiders. So Melee classes aren't hosed at all. With Prot X, they can attack the Summoner just fine.....as long as they don't attack or FORCE contact (and RAW that's harder than it looks) with the summons. I did say that Circle was more of a problem. But then again, forcing contact means you can't grapple. Not much of a problem, but still a problem for some classes. |
| Thorden_Lyon02-19-06, 09:31 AM | What does the fiendidh / celestial template add to the creature? I cant find any info in the MM nor the PHB... |
| keith18702-19-06, 09:49 AM | If I knew someone had a CoP on I would simply try to summon as many creatures as possible ans place then in such a way that they couldn't get to me without pushing their circle against a summoned creature. Wven when someone has Protection fom X just simply surround them in summoned creatures pretty easy, you don't even have to worry about the person taking AoO against then since it'll drop his protection if he does. While you're hedging him in he's going to try and move away which wasted him time and depending on where he is could cause other problems as well. If his allies decide that it would be a good idea to get rid of the summoned creatures then at the very least you;re stoping them from attacking you party which is always a good thing. |
| Cantankerous02-19-06, 11:40 AM | Cantankerous: By RAW a good aligned cleric cannot summon an evil creature. No exceptions. See the quotes from the SRD in my earlier post in case you do not believe it. I'd actually forgotten that as those who have been following the campaign will tell you, we have a little bit different deal with Helas. She's a Cleric (now High Priestess) of a Concept: the Divinity of Man; not a Diety. Presently in absentia she's still holding the position of Supreme Prelate for the Church of Man for all of the Norican Lands (the "New World" continent finally got an official name hung on it) and Island Holdings. Grandiose sounding, but she is an epic level Cleric (Cleric*12/Thaumaturgist*5/Hierophant*5) after all. |
| NZCardinal02-19-06, 12:30 PM | We're discussing a rather unique use for summoned monsters in this thread http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=586655&page=2 Artillary. Using them as death-from-above attacks. |
| Wind of Darkness02-19-06, 12:40 PM | ^Actually... Just a small pipe in: You can't actually summon creatures into thin air. You have to summon them on a surface. Sometimes, you can summon them on surfaces that are above your target and then get them to hurl themselves off of it, but it's by no means a common event. See! I'm not the only one under the impression that you can't summon things above your target. I know there's a rule about that somewhere... *goes off to find* HA! I found it! A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it. From the Magic Overview, in the description of the Conjuration school of magic. WIN! |
| Broken vacuum02-20-06, 03:12 AM | I'd actually forgotten that as those who have been following the campaign will tell you, we have a little bit different deal with Helas. She's a Cleric (now High Priestess) of a Concept: the Divinity of Man; not a Diety. Presently in absentia she's still holding the position of Supreme Prelate for the Church of Man for all of the Norican Lands (the "New World" continent finally got an official name hung on it) and Island Holdings. Grandiose sounding, but she is an epic level Cleric (Cleric*12/Thaumaturgist*5/Hierophant*5) after all. I am not entirely certain of what your point is, so please excuse any unnecessary restatements. A cleric cannot cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or opposed to the alignment of his god. Not having a god does not mean that the restriction on opposed alignment spells relative to the personal alignment is lifted. By RAW a good aligned cleric can never cast evil spells - god or no god. In the discussion of the general usefulness of a spell I seldom find elaborate examples from real campaigns fruitful. They tend to bog down the discussion far to much. When the use of the spell in the campaign further entails house rules it is never a good idea to use it to try to prove a point. When you get right down to the core of an argument about a spell it is often quite simple and this case is no different. The argument against the usefulness of the Summon Monster spells in this thread has essentially been based on ignoring the extent of possibilities the spells actually provide and exaggerating the prevalence and effectiveness of protection spells. This is not that hard to argue against. It is nothing strange to like to talk about a campaign you are in - most of us do - but just because of that it tends to make people lose sight of the actual discussion. Examples are fine, but try to keep them as simple, campaign-unspecific and general as possible. That way they hopefully serves their purpose and keeps the argument on track instead of losing it in endless discussions on exactly how and when Grafnib the Great can and cannot do what in the possibly lost city of Lark. Of course, this rule should be broken now and then. |
| Cantankerous02-20-06, 04:00 AM | I am not entirely certain of what your point is, so please excuse any unnecessary restatements. A cleric cannot cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or opposed to the alignment of his god. Not having a god does not mean that the restriction on opposed alignment spells relative to the personal alignment is lifted. By RAW a good aligned cleric can never cast evil spells - god or no god. *snip* I disagree. Why is rather simple to. While an individual diety will certainly have a problem with using the powers of his opposite number, a Priest of a concept that also INCLUDES that opposite number, will not. The idea behind conceptual ideologies like the Divinity of Mankind includes all of the spectrum of possibilities. A servant of a specific diety usually receives benefits from being tied to that individual diety, such as free weapons feats. The Cleric of an ideal needs something to compensate and while they've never come right out and said it, it seems fairly clear that when they talk about restrictions of clerics of specific dieties, that restricts ONLY clerics of specific dieties. Such is the case above. Just as it is an Evil act, Alignment wise, for a Neutral Good Wizard to use a Summon Monster*7 spell to get a Bone Devil, it is also for the Cleric of Good alignment who is not tied to, say, a Lawful Good deity. BUT... even for such a Cleric, there is STILL a very large numvber of choices available. Let's now have the Cleric as a servant of Trithereon and CG his/herself as well and look at the list. One of Avoral (guardinal) NG Celestial baleen whale NG Elemental, Huge (any) N Invisible stalker N or 1d3 of one of the following Celestial orca whale NG Elemental, Large (any) N Janni (genie) N or 1d4+1 of one of the following Celestial giant stag beetle NG Celestial sea cat1 NG Elemental, Medium (any) N Our Summoner STILL has a plentitude of choices, even with having had the Lich cast Protection from Chaos and the Priest of Trithereon not having the ability to summon Lawful or Evil beings on top of it all. Each entry of Elemental, Size (any) includes FOUR different possibilities at each of the differing sizes... then we add in SEVEN more possibilities, in this instance, on top of that. There are few spells that even BEGIN to be so broad and generally useful in basis as Monster Summonings, especially when you get past the first few levels. Isshia |
| Broken vacuum02-20-06, 05:20 AM | I disagree. Why is rather simple to. While an individual diety will certainly have a problem with using the powers of his opposite number, a Priest of a concept that also INCLUDES that opposite number, will not. The idea behind conceptual ideologies like the Divinity of Mankind includes all of the spectrum of possibilities. A servant of a specific diety usually receives benefits from being tied to that individual diety, such as free weapons feats. The Cleric of an ideal needs something to compensate and while they've never come right out and said it, it seems fairly clear that when they talk about restrictions of clerics of specific dieties, that restricts ONLY clerics of specific dieties. Such is the case above. You can disagree however much you want, by RAW you are wrong. I posted this earlier, but here goes again: Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells: A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions. Note that the case of a deity-less cleric is actually mentioned, so it is definitely not an oversight. And no, a cleric does not gain any free weapon feats or anything else for having a deity. The War domain does, but just having a deity does not. BUT... even for such a Cleric, there is STILL a very large numvber of choices available. Never disputed there was. |
| CaoSlayer02-20-06, 05:30 AM | Can someone explain any effective uses of Monster Summoning I, especially at very low caster levels? nnnnn can be used to craft bane weapons. ;) |
| Kyuketsukiouji02-20-06, 07:18 AM | At low level, a summon monster spell is pretty much an attack spell. Cast spell, roll attack roll, summon does damage (often a smite), and vanishes. |
| Cantankerous02-20-06, 08:47 AM | A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one). You know Broken, YOU might want to reread this. The way this is phrased "(if he has one)" does NOT in any way INCLUDE the deityless caster. By the actual phrasing, it EXCLUDES the deityless caster. You could, by twisting phraseology a bit, read it in such a way that it does include the caster who does not serve a specific deity, but if so it's phrased in a lousy and very loose manner. Isshia |
| Cantankerous02-20-06, 09:07 AM | At very low levels Monster Summoning spells are still more than just an attack spell, although with a 1 round duration (beyond the round it's summoned in of course, as it's a full round to cast and "It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn." One thing I've seen it used for, was as a life saver (the personal flotation device kind) when a Celestial Porpoise was summoned right next to a drowning dwarf. ;) But even just as an attack spell it has range. Let's say you're a Neutral Sorcerer; you've got a qaurtet of poison using choices if that floats your boat, or a Celestial Dog to use against foes you normally can't easily effect...like maybe a Quasit or Lemure at low levels...because of it's damage reduction and resistances. That puppy will sure try to make a chew toy out of it though. To a Lemure with just 9 hit points, the "measley" 1d4+1 (or +2 if it's smiting) is nothing to sneeze at and a crit by the doggie will very possibiliy send it screaming back to it's home plane very annoyed in just the one round that it's summoned for by our first level Sorcerer. Or it could suffer the fate of a certain Celestial Monkey who comes to mind and dsicover a trap the party didn't know was there. :eek: Poor Monkey. :( Isshia |
| Ut-Napishtim02-20-06, 09:15 AM | I'm rather surprised I missed this thread for so long. Personally Conjurers are one of my favorite Wizards to play. As another poster mentioned summoning spells are like a Swiss Army Knife that give you some versatility - unfortunately it takes a long time to stab someone to death with a Swiss Army Knife unless you roll like a natural 20 or something. I've found that making effective use of Summon Monster for an Arcane caster requires heavily focusing on and specializing in them. For a general caster, no - they aren't that hot, and I wouldn't reccomend wasting a slot on them. For one who has heavily focused several feats, possibly a PrC, and taken the appropriate languages (you have to be able to communicate for them to do anything but mindlessly attack) they can be great. I also think you really have to seperate Summon Nature's Ally and Summon Monster to pose the question - because the answer is different for each. The assorted Summon Nature's Ally spells are very potent indeed, and the Druid doesn't even have to prepare them. It's a win-win. As a DM I would be nervous if one of my players was ever clever enough to take a Druid with Augment Summoning - very nervous. For a Cleric or Wizard it really only brings up Summon Monster to the same power level as Summon Nature's Ally. For my Cleric of Elhonna I'm planning on picking up that feat that lets you cast Summon Nature's Ally like a Druid. That's much easier than the Spell Focus: Conjuration/Augment Summoning duo you need to make SM as good as SNA. :twocents: |
| Broken vacuum02-20-06, 09:49 AM | You know Broken, YOU might want to reread this. The way this is phrased "(if he has one)" does NOT in any way INCLUDE the deityless caster. By the actual phrasing, it EXCLUDES the deityless caster. You could, by twisting phraseology a bit, read it in such a way that it does include the caster who does not serve a specific deity, but if so it's phrased in a lousy and very loose manner. Actually it is the other way around. Note that the "if he has one"-part is within parentheses. The contents within parentheses are always clarifications, explanations or examples and as such never change the meaning of the sentence outside the parentheses. You have to suppose that the writer is unfamiliar with how a parenthetical statement works to even begin to interpret the sentence as you do. Given that you do this, it is still far from clear that your interpretation is the correct one. Look at the sentence again: A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one). A completely correct structural interpretation of the sentence could be: A cleric cannot cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or spells of an alignment opposed to that of any god he follows. Now the problem with your interpretation, even if we ignore normal rules for parentheses, is that the following-god qualifier really should come right after - or before - the word "cleric" if it is to be relevant to the whole sentence. If the writer actually meant what you want the sentence to mean, he should have written something akin to: A cleric following a god cannot cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity's. Much more elegant and simple. And devoid of any misuse of parentheses. Edit: Additionally it makes absolutely no sense what so ever to read it like you do mechanically speaking. The only mechanical difference between ordinary clerics and deity-less ones is the inability to cast spells of an alignment opposed to the cleric's god. As a deity-less cleric does not have a deity by definition that is a necessary difference, but it makes no sense to give him an additional power-boost by expanding the number of possible spell effects he can use. He does not take a cut in his power anywhere relative the ordinary cleric. |
| Cantankerous02-20-06, 11:03 AM | Actually it is the other way around. Note that the "if he has one"-part is within parentheses. The contents within parentheses are always clarifications, explanations or examples and as such never change the meaning of the sentence outside the parentheses. You have to suppose that the writer is unfamiliar with how a parenthetical statement works to even begin to interpret the sentence as you do. Given that you do this, it is still far from clear that your interpretation is the correct one. Look at the sentence again: A completely correct structural interpretation of the sentence could be: A cleric cannot cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or spells of an alignment opposed to that of any god he follows. Now the problem with your interpretation, even if we ignore normal rules for parentheses, is that the following-god qualifier really should come right after - or before - the word "cleric" if it is to be relevant to the whole sentence. If the writer actually meant what you want the sentence to mean, he should have written something akin to: A cleric following a god cannot cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity's. Much more elegant and simple. And devoid of any misuse of parentheses. Edit: Additionally it makes absolutely no sense what so ever to read it like you do mechanically speaking. The only mechanical difference between ordinary clerics and deity-less ones is the inability to cast spells of an alignment opposed to the cleric's god. As a deity-less cleric does not have a deity by definition that is a necessary difference, but it makes no sense to give him an additional power-boost by expanding the number of possible spell effects he can use. He does not take a cut in his power anywhere relative the ordinary cleric. Quit talking out your nether orifice man. "Parentheses are used to separate off asides or nonessential information. Material set off by commas and dashes should be pertinent to the rest of the sentence; material enclosed by parentheses can be a little more discursive." This is the primary usage of the parenthesis in writing. additionally "Parentheses set off information more firmly than commas or dashes do." Most likely this is the actual usage in this case. and "Parentheses are used to cite sources." Doesn't apply here. and also "Parentheses can be used to provide translations or short explanations next to rare terms." example: Carl called me a jabroni (loser). While "deity" isn't exactly a rare term, even if you STRETCH the normal panethetical usage to try to make it one for this instance, it does not provide either a translation or a short expanation of the term. Before you go off on a long disertation concerning this, I've lived as a professional writer for a good while and have been a professional writer for more than two decades as a second job and in this entire period, through my association with several different editors (who have VERY often critiqued the bejessum out of my spelling and typing skills) not one of them has ever forwarded this weird explanation of the parenthesis you are trying to foist off here. Isshia |
| Polaris02-20-06, 11:52 AM | Here's the statement from the SRD: Originally Posted by SRD A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one). Let's break it down logically: Cleric no-cast spells if alignment opposite his UNION Cleric no-cast spells if alignment opposite diety The parenthetical statement qualifies the second statement. Thus the rule still applies to dietyless clerics. -Polaris |
| Broken vacuum02-20-06, 11:57 AM | Quit talking out your nether orifice sonny. Never started. "Parentheses are used to separate off asides or nonessential information. Material set off by commas and dashes should be pertinent to the rest of the sentence; material enclosed by parentheses can be a little more discursive." This is the primary usage of the parenthesis in writing. Which does not really contradict my very short explanation. I was not aware that you wanted a full one. You will notice that the allowance of discursive material within parentheses is not the same as allowing it to change the meaning of the rest of the sentence. In fact the four words in question can neither be said to be rambling nor reasoning. The first sentence of your quote fairly accurately describes my view of the structural function of the parenthesis in the SRD. additionally "Parentheses set off information more firmly than commas or dashes do." Most likely this is the actual usage in this case. And this contradicts my explanation exactly how? I am not the one claiming the parenthesis to be an integral part of the rest of the sentence. and "Parentheses are used to cite sources." Doesn't apply here. It certainly does not. and also "Parentheses can be used to provide translations or short explanations next to rare terms." example: Carl called me a jabroni (loser). While "deity" isn't exactly a rare term, even if you STRETCH the normal panethetical usage to try to make it one for this instance, it does not provide either a translation or a short expanation of the term. And this is relevant to my interpretation exactly how? Before you go off on a long disertation concerning this, I've lived as a professional writer for a good while and have been a professional writer for more than two decades as a second job and in this entire period, through my association with several different editors (who have VERY often critiqued the bejessum out of my spelling and typing skills) not one of them has ever forwarded this weird explanation of the parenthesis you are trying to foist off here. And what is the relevance of this? Neither do I have any way of ascertaining the truth of your statement, nor does it interest me. An argument should be able to carry its own weight and not be dependent on who is presenting it. Now, I am not a writer and I do not have delusions of my own infallibility, so I am going to assume that my post was somehow unclear, though it escapes me how. The interpretation you are trying for assumes the content of the parenthesis to be an integral part of the sentence. Without the parenthesis the meaning is not the same. In general this is not how parentheses are used and the definition of the parenthesis you provided agrees. If the contents of the parenthesis is integral to the sentence like you claim it cannot be classified as an aside or as nonessential information. And I cannot really say that I find it discursive. That a parenthesis is farther removed from the structure - or more firmly set off as your definition states - hardly makes it more believable that the parenthesis in question is supposed to be an integral part of the rest of the sentence. The rest you commented on yourself. Now, leaving the usage of parenthesis aside, the rest of my argument also applies. Even if I suppose that the writer of this part of the SRD agrees with you on how parentheses are used in general, it requires a rather awkward reading of the text to arrive at the interpretation you do. As I stated in my former post, a qualifier to the word "cleric" that is to have the entire sentence as its scope should accompany the first mention of the cleric in the sentence. Even ignoring that, there is still the fact that such a interpretation of the rules make little mechanical sense. Finally, I am sorry if I offended you. That was certainly not my intention. |
| Gnarl02-20-06, 02:44 PM | For my Cleric of Elhonna I'm planning on picking up that feat that lets you cast Summon Nature's Ally like a Druid. I realy would like the name of that feat if you manage to get your hands on it. Thanks |
| Objulen02-20-06, 03:30 PM | Actually, clerics are the best summoners. All the summon augmenting feats are available to them, and they can use Divine Metamagic with something like Repeat Spell to use their Monster Summoning Spells multiple times per day @ 4 turn attempts a pop. |
| Polaris02-20-06, 03:43 PM | Actually, clerics are the best summoners. All the summon augmenting feats are available to them, and they can use Divine Metamagic with something like Repeat Spell to use their Monster Summoning Spells multiple times per day @ 4 turn attempts a pop. Which simply proves that Divine Metamagic is broken not that Clerics are the best summoners. The big problem with Clerics is that at least have the summon list is eliminated for a cleric which greatly reduces the one good thing about Summon (it's versitility). -Polaris |
| Ut-Napishtim02-20-06, 06:11 PM | I realy would like the name of that feat if you manage to get your hands on it. Thanks IIRC it's in Complete Divine, I'll have to go look later. |
| Gnarl02-20-06, 06:39 PM | IIRC it's in Complete Divine, I'll have to go look later. Spontaneous Summoning doesn't let you cast the spells if you don't already have them on your spell list :( |
| Kyuketsukiouji02-20-06, 06:45 PM | You know Broken, YOU might want to reread this. A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one). The way this is phrased "(if he has one)" does NOT in any way INCLUDE the deityless caster. By the actual phrasing, it EXCLUDES the deityless caster. You could, by twisting phraseology a bit, read it in such a way that it does include the caster who does not serve a specific deity, but if so it's phrased in a lousy and very loose manner. I can't comment on your english skills, but your logic skills are rather sad. Or clauses in a negative context are invalidated if either the clauses are true. E.i.: If (Spell Alignment opposes Cleric Alignment) or (Spell Alignment opposes God's Alignment) then Can't Cast. So, yes, the (if he has one) addition to the diety section does mean a dietyless cleric doesn't have to worry about the second half of the conditional, but the first half is still valid. (though, technically, it could be argue the parenthesis applies to both premises, but that's utterly academic, because "A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own if he has one" really doesn't qualify anything). |
| nnnnn02-21-06, 03:16 AM | Thanks for all the interesting persepctives, but I would say the "no"s have it. nnnnn |
| Ut-Napishtim02-21-06, 08:41 AM | Spontaneous Summoning doesn't let you cast the spells if you don't already have them on your spell list :( Dang, you're right. Well that makes that feat pretty useless. Even a Cleric with the Animal domain only gets access to like two of the Summon Nature's Ally spells. Mine has Plant and Sun so I guess I'll have to start shopping around for something different. I suppose a Ranger could take it, but with their modest spellcasting ability it probably won't help much by the time they can. About the only other use I could see would be if a powergamer took the Druidic Avenger variant from Unearthed Arcana they could then turn around and take this feat to cancel out the variant's inherent drawback to in effect have their cake and eat it too. Bummer. |
| Gnarl02-21-06, 08:50 AM | I guess it was too good to be true. If your DM lets you play the stuff in frostburn (I know I don't), you have the conjure ice beasts spells. As summon nature's ally, but much much much much better: extra cold damage, lots more hit points, construct traits, engulf ect..; |
| SiouLubb02-21-06, 03:56 PM | Personally, I love the Summon spells, even as a Sorcerer. Things i've used Summons for. Trap-Monkey (literally). Suspicious corridor? Tell your summoned Dire badger to take a run down the corridor. Bam! It triggers the reverse gravity trap and slams into the ceiling. No way my 2+int skill points Sorc would have detected that trap. Sent a celestial monkey to go pull some chains on the corridor wall and set off an acid bath trap. Used another group of monkeys to scout and they found the gelatinous cube- the hard way. Screening: Celestial Bison summoned to break the charge of a group of hobgoblins. Let my sorcerer stay back, unmolested. Control: Summoned a Celestial Bison in a 5" corridor (squeeze). Gave the party time to escape. Summoned Lantern Archons for their aura of Protection from Evil. I can see the point about the Protection from Evil spell being a good counter to the summons, but every spell has its counter. Saying that Prot from Evil makes summoning useless is like saying that Fireball is useless because Protection from energy exists. If there was a spell to which there was no counter whatsoever, we'd all be taking it. It's a matter of game balance. Besides, if your enemy caster has to take the time/resources to cast protection from evil, that's a slot or a round that he could have been casting something truly nasty to hit you with. Yes, I am aware that Summon takes a full round to cast. No, I don't think that you'll always have another option that would put the enemy caster down for the count in that round you'd spend instead of summoning monster. Besides, summoning is FUN. |
| Polaris02-21-06, 04:21 PM | Siou, If countering summons was all that Protection from X or Magic Circle were good for, then I'd say you'd have a good point. In fact there is a counter for everything and countering summons is pretty darned specific. The problem is that Protection from X and Magic Circle are good for so damned much! They are so good before you consider summons, that most casters (and AFIAK most if not all casters have at least Prot from X) would be foolish not to use them.....which means that the counter for summons is a spell that is likely to be used anyway (summon or not) or at least quickly available. -Polaris |
| malignor02-21-06, 05:16 PM | The same could be said for Protection From Energy (Fire). Useful against... {Burning Hands, Scorching Ray, Flaming Sphere, Fireball, Flame Arrow, Flame Strike, Flame Blade, Produce Flame, Azers, Fire Elementals, Salamanders, Remorhaz, Burning Oil, Incediary Cloud, forest fires, burning wreckage, Alchemist's Fire...} A caster would have to be just as stupid to not have that active all the time as protection from X. Suddenly a truckload of spells (burning hands, flame strike, produce flame, scorching ray) become all but useless for the same reason that Magic Circle/Protection from X renders Summons useless. Or, to phrase it in your words... The problem is that Protection from energy (fire) is good for so damned much! It is so good before you consider fire attacks, that most casters (and AFIAK most if not all casters have at least Prot from Energy (fire)) would be foolish not to use such a spell.....which means that the counter for fire attacks is a spell that is likely to be used anyway (spell or not) or at least quickly available. The same could be said for Shield. Useful against... {Magic Missiles, arrows, swords, unarmed strikes, natural weapons, clubs, summoned beasties, slings, spears, chainsaws, midget knife throwers, midget knife thrower throwers, midget knife thrower thrower throwers, ...} A caster would have to be just as stupid to not have that active all the time as protection from X. Suddenly magic missile becomes useless for the same reason that Magic Circle/Protection from X renders Summons useless. Again, I paraphrase for the benefit of Polaris... The problem is that Shield is good for so damned much! It is so good before you consider all attacks, that most casters (and AFIAK most if not all casters have at least Shield) would be foolish not to use it.....which means that the counter for physical attacks is a spell that is likely to be used anyway (spell or not) or at least quickly available. ... I could keep going with this. |
| Ignatius Metamorphic02-21-06, 05:23 PM | Siou, If countering summons was all that Protection from X or Magic Circle were good for, then I'd say you'd have a good point. In fact there is a counter for everything and countering summons is pretty darned specific. The problem is that Protection from X and Magic Circle are good for so damned much! They are so good before you consider summons, that most casters (and AFIAK most if not all casters have at least Prot from X) would be foolish not to use them.....which means that the counter for summons is a spell that is likely to be used anyway (summon or not) or at least quickly available. -Polaris Protection from X and Magic Circle are solid spells. BUT, not every encounter has an enemy spellcaster (or creature with those spells as spell-like abilities). Lots of encounters involve monsters, magical beasts, abberations, dragons, orcs, etc. And, if there is an enemy spellcaster, not every one will have prepared those spells. A wizard may not have chosen different spells for that day. I know you think Pro. X and Magic circle are great spells, but some wizards may take fireball and mage armor instead. Clerics and adepts may also choose different spells. A specialist wizard may have taken abjuration as a prohibited school and a sorcerer may not choose either spells with their limited spell selection. And, if there is an enemy spellcaster, a summoner probably has other spells (or a wand) prepared (I know I always did). And, even if there is a spellcaster, who has prepared Pro. X and/or Magic Circle, and I have no other spells available, I still have options. 1. Summon a creature to attack the spellcaster's companions, or 2. Summon creatures with ranged/or area effect attacks. You are right, Polaris, when you say there are going to be times when Summon Monster is not the best spell you can cast. I think, however, you overestimate how often those situations occur and how limited a summoner is in those situations. |
| Objulen02-22-06, 12:23 AM | Magic Circle spells are nasty, but arcane casters have a way out (clerics are sort of screwed due to alignment descriptors). Evil characters don't generally pack a Magic Circle Against Evil, so why not toss out a couple of evil summons? |
| Hariman02-22-06, 01:16 PM | Extend Spell can help. I'm not sure if Persistent Spell can be applied to a summon spell. (Does fixed range mean close/medium/far or just personal/touch? The feat isn't clear on that. I'm doubting that Persistent can be used on a summon spell.) Spell Focus (Conjuration) ups the dispel DC to unsummon a summoned creature. Yes, summons are situational. EVERY SPELL IN THE GAME IS SITUATIONAL. You merely need to find ways to make the spells useful. Summon Unicorns to heal, Triceratops can to the "Triceratops Shuffle", Wolves Trip, Hound Archons have varied abilities, certain air elementals are treat as lighting storms, (Call Lightning on attacked enemies,) a Monkey can provide a distraction ! Any spell will be at less than it's optimum if you don't find as many ways to use it as possible. Also, has there been an official ruling on using a Dimensional Anchor spell on a Summoned Monster? Would that keep a summoned monster summoned or would it have no effect? |
| Polaris02-22-06, 01:35 PM | Extend Spell can help. I'm not sure if Persistent Spell can be applied to a summon spell. (Does fixed range mean close/medium/far or just personal/touch? The feat isn't clear on that. I'm doubting that Persistent can be used on a summon spell.) Actually Extend Spell doesn't really help unless you are a cleric with Divine Metamagic (which is broken anyway). That's because you are ADDING a level to the spell making already weak summons for the level of the caster that much weaker. It's the same reason why Rapid Spell is not a great feat for a summoner either (barring Divine Metamagic). Spell Focus (Conjuration) ups the dispel DC to unsummon a summoned creature. No it doesn't. In fact Spell Focus (Conj) is totally useless for the summon spell itself (other than to qualify for Augment Summoning). Spell Focus just increases the save DC (not caster level) and there is no save DC for Summon. Yes, summons are situational. EVERY SPELL IN THE GAME IS SITUATIONAL. You merely need to find ways to make the spells useful. Summon Unicorns to heal, Triceratops can to the "Triceratops Shuffle", Wolves Trip, Hound Archons have varied abilities, certain air elementals are treat as lighting storms, (Call Lightning on attacked enemies,) a Monkey can provide a distraction ! Any spell will be at less than it's optimum if you don't find as many ways to use it as possible. Some situations are more problematic then others, however. Prot from X and Magic Circle are VERY common spells. (Virtually every caster class has at least Prot X on it's list). Also, has there been an official ruling on using a Dimensional Anchor spell on a Summoned Monster? Would that keep a summoned monster summoned or would it have no effect? AFAIK, Dim Anchor has no effect on Summons one way or the other and the spell specifically says that a Dim Anchor can't keep a Summon present once the spell ends. -Polaris |
| Yue Ryong02-22-06, 02:34 PM | Could someone please tell me where it says that casting an aligned spell is an act of that alignment? I can understand that divine casters can't ast opposing aligned spells, but I've yet to see any indication (anywhere) that casting such spells are likely to have any long term effect on your alignment in their own right. Certainly, if you summon a bone devil and have it gut the parents of a young child before her very eyes, it's an evil act. But that doesn't mean summoning a Bone Devil is automatically an evil act. Irritatingly, the only indicator I can find on this is in the BoED (not the most reliable source, I know, but we make do with what we have), which says specifically that aligned spells have no impact on the alignment of the user, with the sole exception of Sanctified spells. |
| Hariman02-22-06, 03:17 PM | AFAIK, Dim Anchor has no effect on Summons one way or the other and the spell specifically says that a Dim Anchor can't keep a Summon present once the spell ends. -Polaris And you can call be blind for missing that. Basic gist of my prior post? Summoning spells aren't completely useless. They have their place in D&D. It's just not as impressive a place as direct damage spells and other spells. |