Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jermin 01-24-07, 05:13 PM	My group and I, never really cared about the Summon Spells... the never where a memoriced spell. However, we found a pair of situations lately that would be solved better with some extra hands... and when we checked the spells we where a bit shocked. On a extreme example, a summon monster 9, summons a CR 12 more or less... isn't that too weak? The same aplies for other levels, can anyone show me if this is balanced?
SephDragoon 01-24-07, 05:22 PM	Um... no, no it is not weak at all. Summon spells are awsome to behold, and come in handy so often. Set off traps, flank, tank for you (find a really hearty summon, get augment summoning for +4 con, and send that thing in), a distraction to the enemy, or heck, summon lots of little ones, you have a wall of summoned monsters that will keep your enemies at bay for a little bit at least. Not to mention, there isn't really a limit that I know of to how many you can summon at once. In a few rounds, you can have a veritable army. With the recharge magic variant, summon monster becomes godly... since you can essentially keep a monster summoned indefinitely since the spell that summoned it recharges faster than the spell runs out. I played with recharge magic and loved it.
arjomanes 01-24-07, 05:28 PM	Summons, if used right, can be very good. Generally it's better to summon multiple less-powerful creatures, to get more bang for your buck, than the most powerful creature you can summon. Keep in mind the monster's abilities and use accordingly. Good for shoring up weaknesses in your party or for specific uses. Sometimes smart use of supernatural or spell-like ablities can be very useful. Take summoning feats like augment summoning or use buffs on your summons. This is a common strategy for druids who can cast animal growth on their animal companion and their summons with the same spell.
malignor 01-24-07, 05:37 PM	Summons are either amazing or crap, depending on the situation and what you summon. Good Example: Facing a band of pirates in a cave. Cleric summoned 3 Celestial Bisons, which proceeded to overrun, grapple and gore every enemy. Their DR and hitpoints and size soaked up tons of attacks, heavily reduced the mobility of the enemy and pretty much did half our work for us. As a result, what could have been a dangerous mob of foes became a joke. Bad Example: Facing a 18HD fiendish Basilisk, summoned a Hound Archon, just because it was immune to Paralysis. It wasn't immune to the massive damage output, though, and only served as a 1-round delay in exchange for a 5th level spell (whadda waste). Far better would have been 1d3 Lantern Archons, which could have bolstered the party, and kept out of reach from the Basilisk while they whittle it down. It should be noted, as has been mentioned above, that summons makes area-effect buffs really useful. Say you're 7th level, are in a party of 4, and have Haste. Summon 1d3 of something first! Then you haste the party plus your summons. Same goes for spells like Mass Bull Strength or similar. If you have a rogue in the party, summoning will make that rogue much more effective for flanking and such. Lastly, if you pick something like, say, celestial creatures, you know they have frost & electricity resistance, so send them in to corral the enemy and blast the whole pack with a Cone of Cold or Lightning Bolt, summons and all. The resistance will mean little or no damage to summoned friendlies, and high damage to enemies.
RellenMarn 01-24-07, 05:40 PM	Summoning can be phenomenal in the right situation. You cannot consider it the damage equivilant of a damage dealing spell because it does so much more. Summon Monster III for example can be used to Summon a Celestial Hippogriff which at level 5 will last 5 rounds presuming it is not extended. Now your Summon can attack for 1d4 + 4 damage, or 2 x 1d4 + 4 and 1d8 + 4 on a full attack, so average of around 6 for an attack and 18 for a full attack. It can do this for 5 rounds, it can also provide flanking act as a meat shield fly you across a canyon if you did not prepare fly. However, your Summon is also sadly killable(well maybe not kill, but you know what I mean), lets say that its foe kills it in one round. Well at level 5 killing something with 25 HPs in one round is an achievement, that could have been you! So we have damage potential, distraction potential, meatshield potential, and even spellcasting abilities in the case of higher level summons. Lets take Summon Monster IX and lets summon a Lional Guardinal, this thing can create walls of force AT WILL, fireballs AT WILL, hold monster AT WILL, Cure Critical Wounds 3/day, Heal 1/day. Wall of Force alone is a fifth level spell, this fella will be around for a minimum of seventeen rounds! Not to mention that he is a decent combatant, gives off an aura of protection that you can benefit from, etc. Or you can always summon an earth elemental there is nothing like a +37 grapple check to ruin an opposing casters fun...
olshanski_home 01-24-07, 05:40 PM	Bisons should be errata'd so that their primary attack is at -5 as are other herbivores. The bison, as written, is far superior to every other creature in its class as far as summon nature's ally.
arjomanes 01-24-07, 05:44 PM	It can do this for 5 rounds, it can also provide flanking act as a meat shield fly you across a canyon if you did not prepare fly. It can also pick up the enemy wizard and drop him in the canyon. Of course the enemy wizard can also dispel it while you're flying over the canyon.
Vegepygmy 01-24-07, 06:35 PM	I'd like to echo everything Malignor said. That answer was perfect.
CrazyMarv 01-24-07, 06:42 PM	In the game I'm playing in now our Wizard is a Conjurer/Alienist and his summons have been extremely useful. He also has Beckon the Frozen from frostburn. It lets you summon creatures and give them the Cold subtype, plus they deal +1d6 cold damage on each attack. Anyway, mostly what everyone said we have found to be true. They serve well to keep guys away from the magic users and can be summoned near the Rogue for flanking and stuff. Plus, they have been exceptionally useful as distractions. Anyway, summons can do all kinds of cool stuff. Just try 'em out and you'll see
spectralphoenix 01-24-07, 07:06 PM	Check the Leadership table in the DMG. A score of 18 will give you a 12th level cohort (CR 12) - who needs to be kept alive from encounter to encounter, doesn't obey suicidal orders, and only has one set of abilities (instead of letting you choose a new creature every encounter.)
Zombayz1 01-24-07, 07:25 PM	Summons RAPE. And I mean Rape. Not only can you do everything mentioned above, but you can summon very heavy monsters ABOVE an enemy. A good example is as follows "Haha, you can't beat me! I am too strong!!' *CRUNCH* "Oh god my spine....Ugh....Bison...." That good enough a use for you?
arjomanes 01-24-07, 07:29 PM	Summons ****. And I mean ****. Not only can you do everything mentioned above, but you can summon very heavy monsters ABOVE an enemy. A good example is as follows "Haha, you can't beat me! I am too strong!!' *CRUNCH* "Oh god my spine....Ugh....Bison...." That good enough a use for you? You can't do that. From Summon Monster I: "Creatures cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support them." It's very helpful to read through the entire description before using a spell. Otherwise the game gets put on hold while everyone looks up the rule. Nevertheless, yes, summons can be very powerful, even without being summoned into air above the enemy.
Moon-Lancer 01-24-07, 07:32 PM	summon a large wind elemental and pick up a med creature with a bad reflex, have the wind elemental move up 110 feet and drop the creature, thats 20d6 of non magical damage at very early levels. I say summons are one of the best spells in the game. pritty soon when you get huge elementals, you can drop large creatures over and over and over. most large brutes have a bad ref save.
journeyman777 01-24-07, 07:35 PM	For fun with summoning make sure to check out the alternate summoning spells in some of the splatbooks. The Conjure Ice Beast spells from Frostburn proved so useful to my sorc that I rarely cast anything else, Sandstorm has a similar line of spells, and Complete mage added some more nice feats for summoners in general. A decently built summoner can nearly replace the party tank all by himself.
Fumblena 01-24-07, 07:39 PM	Recently, my group came across a situation in which Summon saved our collective bums. Two of our party members where outside a tent. The other 3 including myself, where inside. We were completely surrounded, aprox. 120 fully armed soldiers. Our claric cast Summon creature, her god being the god of healing sent the only things she had, germs, viruses. Needless to say it was pretty grusome.
Chimaera2000 01-24-07, 07:54 PM	I've not had experience with high-level summon monster spells, but I can say from my experiences playing The Temple of Elemental Evil PC game that summons have been very strong from levels 3-6. I have a pair of druids in my party (one with Augment Summoning) and summoned creatures serve as a reasonable to good source of damage and great meat shields. Every hit that a summoned monster takes is one that your party didn't! When you combine them with mass buffs like inspire courage or haste (as above posters have noted), they deal out some pretty hefty damage. Plus, summoning spells can be reasonably versatile, as RellenMarn noted. Unicorns can be summoned for healing, aquatic creatures can help you cross water, strong flying creatures can get you across a cliff, you get the idea. Of course, none of this has touched on the king of summoning spells, gate. Just because I haven't played extensively in high-level games doesn't mean that I can deny that a spell that can summon epic monsters is effective.
FeceMan 01-24-07, 08:00 PM	Recently, my group came across a situation in which Summon saved our collective bums. Two of our party members where outside a tent. The other 3 including myself, where inside. We were completely surrounded, aprox. 120 fully armed soldiers. Our claric cast Summon creature, her god being the god of healing sent the only things she had, germs, viruses. Needless to say it was pretty grusome. That's the DM, not a spell.
Archangel62 01-24-07, 08:10 PM	Depends on the tactics used. You combine them with the feats in in compelte mage and a couple from Magic of Eberron you can end up with something that is quite a site to behold. Especially with some stuff in Unearthed Arcana and Planar Handbook.
primemover003 01-24-07, 08:23 PM	However there is a simple 1st level spell that can make most Summons moot... Protection from (Alignment). Any creature with natural attacks is thwarted. Great for spellcasters to use to keep Celestial Bisons or even Elementals from pounding the squishies...
arjomanes 01-24-07, 08:40 PM	Nothing is preventing an evil wizard from summoning a good creature vs a good party. From Protection from Evil: "Good summoned creatures are immune to this effect." also: "The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature. Spell resistance can allow a creature to overcome this protection and touch the warded creature." edit: edited out the Summon Natures Ally reference bc it looks like they would be warded against if they don't have a good alignment.
obrysii 01-24-07, 08:56 PM	Conjure Ice Beast 1 through 4 are very, very powerful.
primemover003 01-25-07, 08:55 AM	Nothing is preventing an evil wizard from summoning a good creature vs a good party. From Protection from Evil: "Good summoned creatures are immune to this effect." also: "The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature. Spell resistance can allow a creature to overcome this protection and touch the warded creature." edit: edited out the Summon Natures Ally reference bc it looks like they would be warded against if they don't have a good alignment. This is true, but unless they see the Spell cast or have Arcane Sight up it's unlikely they'll know exactly which Alignment is up (it pays to have some diversity and cast Prot from Law/Chaos once in a while). As for forcing the barrier... there's no need to. A spellcaster can ignore the summoned creature entirely (barring creatures with some kind of ranged attack) and concentrate his firepower on the summoner.
malignor 01-25-07, 11:16 AM	This is true, but unless they see the Spell cast or have Arcane Sight up it's unlikely they'll know exactly which Alignment is up (it pays to have some diversity and cast Prot from Law/Chaos once in a while). As for forcing the barrier... there's no need to. A spellcaster can ignore the summoned creature entirely (barring creatures with some kind of ranged attack) and concentrate his firepower on the summoner.Hard to ignore the Bison when it's acting as cover for the summoner, who's concentrating on your buddies :P Though your theory is sound, a smarty-pants can get around it easily with a little tactics. And the summoner can still act too, and if the creatures have ranged attacks, the Protection only gives +2 deflection to AC and enchantment immunity.
Jermin 01-25-07, 03:23 PM	I see your points, but there's something that still feels amiss. With a Summon Monster IX I can summon a CR 11-13, wich is usefull, however, a Summon Elemental Monolith (I think it's from Complete Arcane, please correrct me if I'm wrong, I wrighting this from memory) summons a CR 17 Elemental. I this overpowered? And if not, then shouldn't Summon Monster IX be underpowered?
journeyman777 01-25-07, 03:53 PM	Summon Monster IX has greater variety in choices, including several that have spell-likes or supernatural abilities of their own. Summon Elemental Monolith just gives you a tougher tank. The SM IX choices are notably better if you are concerned about your foe having protection from alignment or don't know what you'll be facing. It's a balance between versatility and brute force. I really don't see one as making the other irrelevant or less useful. EDIT: Don't forget that the Summon Monster spells let you call multiple creatures from lower spells in the series, Summon Elemental Monolith does not.
sarlinspellweaver 01-25-07, 03:57 PM	Don't forget the numerous feats that can boost the summoned creatures - from Augment summoning through to the newer feats in Complete Mage. I'm currently playing a conjurer in a FR campaign and I have to say, his very average stats that would normally make him a pretty uninspiring spellcaster have been entirely vindicated by his choice of specialisation. I thought he would be underpowered when I rolled him up, but I've increasingly been impressed by the sheer versatility of the conjuring class, and of course all the extra non-battle uses for summoned creatures. Unseen servant is pretty damn amazing, and at low levels, Summon Swarm is very nasty indeed.
NightBreeze 01-25-07, 05:06 PM	Druid can make some nasty summonings. At lower level they make great grapplers, and don't forget that hippo can grapple and then fly up, while rhinos have AWESOME charge. At higher level elemental go crazy. earth are awesome grapplers, while storm elementals are great nukers. The elemental monolith is greatm, but it requirest concentration. A good summoner druid can just make his summons fight for him over many rounds, while he doesn't even get scratched.
CrazyMarv 01-25-07, 05:20 PM	I see your points, but there's something that still feels amiss. With a Summon Monster IX I can summon a CR 11-13, wich is usefull, however, a Summon Elemental Monolith (I think it's from Complete Arcane, please correrct me if I'm wrong, I wrighting this from memory) summons a CR 17 Elemental. I this overpowered? And if not, then shouldn't Summon Monster IX be underpowered? Summon Elemental Monolith requires you to Concentrate on it as a Standard action every round, which can make a big difference. Then again, if all you needed was a big guy to stomp the tar outta things, then the much tougher elemental might be just the answer. So basically, it gives up versatility for some power.
TheCobra 01-25-07, 05:24 PM	It depends on the situation, of course. Summons are extremely good early on, but at higher levels they aren't always as impressive. Most creatures from summon monster IX don't have a prayer of hitting AC 40. They can be pretty useless in some battles.
Red_Rabbit 01-25-07, 07:32 PM	No they aren't weak Dire Bears are awsome Dire Bear - *roar* *roar* Other guy - damn it not again The Rabbit
Sergikins 01-25-07, 07:44 PM	I'd have to say summons are a way to get some versilitly to clerics. if you prepare a summon monster, you effectivly might have a short fly spell to get across gaps, a way to swim places, a way to check for traps, healing (and if it doesn't seem like it will serve a purpose, you can sacrfice it for a cure spell), and a huge assortment of spellike abilities, and finally a target to take hits. once i played a wizard, level 4 armed with a wand of summon monster I. i had a fighter friend (TWF) there to help, we were against a horde of 6 or 7 zombies. i wanted to conserve spells, so i kept on activating the wand to summon a celestial dog, it only lasted for two rounds, but i made sure they flanked with the fighter (who was having a problem hitting) and smited evil immedaitly. eventually, it ended, and i ran to town to help the rest of the party, and i was fully prepared for the big encounter.