Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Friendlyfish 08-29-06, 07:28 PM	So, if I were playing a 20th level conjurer using the unearthed arcana conjurer variants which allows me to spontaneously use summon monster spells, as well as stack some bonuses atop my augment summons feat... Am I worth anything in a high-level fight? (If my schtick is to drop a bunch of summons and maybe wave in a few outsiders I used Planar Binding to grab beforehand...) My reservations are that SM IX spells basically summon CR 10 monsters. At levels 17+, these beasts are toilet paper. I doubt they'll even make the foes laugh. What do the wise think about this assertion? I'd be happy if you were to call me wrong.
KyussWren 08-29-06, 07:53 PM	See if your DM will let you have Summon Elemental Monolith Spell. You should have it anyway. You call into being a gigantic, roughly humanoid creature composed entirely of elemental matter. The creature immediately attacks a nearby enemy. You conjure a tremendously powerful creature known as an elemental mono*lith (Complete Arcane 156). It appears at the spot you designate and acts immediately on your turn, attacking your opponents to the best of its abil*ity. You must concentrate to maintain the spell's effect, but commanding the creature is a free action. If you speak the elemental monolith's language and are close enough to communicate with it, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. A monolith can't be summoned into an environment hostile to it in any way (for example, you couldn't summon a fire monolith underwater or an earth monolith high in midair). When you use a summoning spell to summon an air, earth, fire, or water crea*ture, it becomes a spell of that type. Material Component: A gem worth 100 gp-aquamarine for air, tourma*line for earth, garnet for fire, or pearl for water. Trap the Soul is a conjuration spell. As is Vile Death, and Abyssal Army, and Draw's Instant Summons, and Fierce Pride of the Beastlands, Fire Spiders, heavenly host (bleh), Hellish Horde, Manyjaws (great for annoying other casters), OBEDIENT AVALANCHE. And thats just the ones I found with the word summon in it. Antimagic field comes to mind. The acid line of spells (breath, fog, splash, storm, sheath), arc of lightning, baleful transposition, bands of steel, ... here is a nice one BLACK BLADE OF DISASTER Conjuration (Creation) Level: Sor/Wiz 9 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Effect: Sword-shaped planar rift Duration: Concentration, up to 1 round/level Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: Yes As you cast the spell, a large black tear in the universe appears in the form of a crackling ebony sword made of the material of the planes. The blade flies off at your mental command to destroy your foes. You create a black blade-shaped planar rift about 3 feet long. The blade strikes at any creature within its range, as you desire, starting the round you cast the spell. The blade makes a melee touch attack against its designated target once each round. Its attack bonus is equal to your base attack bonus + your Intelli*gence bonus or your Charisma bonus (for wizards and sorcerers, respectively). Anything hit by the blade is dis*integrated if it fails a Fortitude save, taking 2d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 40d6), or 5d6 points of damage if the saving throw is successful. The blade can pass through any magical barrier equal to or less than its spell level, but cannot penetrate dead magic areas or an antimagic field. It can harm ethereal and incorporeal creatures as if it were a force effect. The blade always strikes from your direction. It does not get a flanking bonus or help a combatant get one. If the blade exceeds its range or goes out of your line of sight, the spell ends. You can direct the blade to attack another target as a standard action. A gate spell can be used to coun*terspell a black blade of disaster. A dimensional anchor spell cast at the blade dispels it automatically. The blade cannot be harmed by physical attacks, but dispel magic, a sphere of annihilation, or a rod of cancellation can affect it. Its touch attack AC is 13. Source: Spell Compendium I'd say it is very viable in combat.
Seeker95 08-29-06, 09:22 PM	So, if I were playing a 20th level conjurer Am I worth anything in a high-level fight?Only if you actually played this conjurer through all 20 levels, learning the tricks and tips and tactics along the way. If you created this 20th level conjurer as a 20th level conjurer, then you probably do not have the insights necessary to make this a viable options. Better instead to play a more hammer-like class (evoker) and treat everything as a nail.
gotbrain 08-29-06, 09:33 PM	I tend to agree. I've always been unimpressed with the summoning spells and wondered if anyone ever used them. I think there is great potential for the summoner to be a strong class if you could only summon good monsters. Let's see, cast a fireball or summon a Celestial bison (or Fiendish dire bat if I'm evil)...hmmmm....tough choice. Where's my frickin sharks with laser beams on their heads?
KyussWren 08-30-06, 01:26 AM	Why cast fireball when you can summon an Elemental Monolith of Fire? I mean... c'mon. The monolith is pretty beefy. It has a grapple check of +50, it can just grab something and smother it with fire. Pretty much, as a 20th level conjurer, you shouldn't need to be adventuring, as you'll be able to summon creatures to fetch whatever treasure you want, to an extent. No, they won't be able to conquer a ECL 34 dungeon, with some rare exceptions proving the rule. Earth Monolith trashing a fortress made of ice comes to mind, then having lesser earth elementals gather the treasure. I could have a lot of fun with a 20th level conjurer :P
camble 08-30-06, 01:32 AM	There is another adjustment that a conjurer can invest in. It allows them to summon creatures as a standard action rather then in 1 round. That would probably help you more then anything since 1 round is sometimes a long time to wait for a spell to go off. If PHBII is available try Imbued summoning. It allows your summoned creatures to be enhanced by a touch spell of 3rd level or lower as soon as they appear. With no added casting time. Adding Illusions to your repetoir can keep you and your summons alive. The longer a summoned creature stays alive the more likely they are to deal damage. Throwing out low level images amoung your normal summonings keep the enemy guessing. It also is a good mesh since summonings won't ruin invisibility. Try to speak the language of your summoned creatures to maximize there cooperation together and with your group. Look for flanking oppurtunities. Have your creatures use the aid other action. Use the grappling rules to your advantage including multiple grapplers/ Aid other action. A grappled opponent can't make attacks of oppurtunities, Is limited in its mobility and is easier to hit if pinned. Use the special abilities of summoned creatures to your advantage. IE Triping, spell like abilities, debilitating poisons. Try to summon a creature to exploit an enemies weakness. Poor fort saves a poisonous creature could work (Centipedes, Scorpions, Spider's, Snakes Viper, Giant Wasp's, Giant Bee's) There are plenty to choose from . A physically weak opponent try tripping or grappling creatures (Wolves, Crocodile's, Lion, Snakes Constricter, Tiger's, Bear's, etc). At higher levels you can summon creatures to assist in healing and or damage mitigation. A lantarn archon could be dedicated to individual party members and use its Aid spell like ability to help keep characters alive in a fight. After any round the character is hit reapply the aid. In between when the person is not hit it can fire off its ray. A bralani can cure serious wounds 2/ day not to mention its other powers.
greatamericanfolkhero 08-30-06, 02:44 AM	I tend to agree. I've always been unimpressed with the summoning spells and wondered if anyone ever used them. I think there is great potential for the summoner to be a strong class if you could only summon good monsters. Let's see, cast a fireball or summon a Celestial bison (or Fiendish dire bat if I'm evil)...hmmmm....tough choice. Where's my frickin sharks with laser beams on their heads? Fireballs don't flank, and the Rogue is going to have a harder time evading the bison. Personally, I summon hordes of spiders (everyone fails a fort save every once in a while.)
Bopple 08-30-06, 02:49 AM	Summon Elemental Monolith + Extraordinary Concentration is pretty powerful. Personally, I'd rather have my job done by myself, than watch summoned creatures fighting - a bit boring.
Friendlyfish 08-30-06, 03:12 AM	Mind you, my original question didn't involve things like Planar Binding. Planar binding, in my opinion, is boss. It summons the beef and lets you roll with it. My question isn't about being a conjurer in general; there's plenty of great spells, including summon monolith. My question (I should have phrased it better) is really: are the summon monster spells (I-IX inclusive!) in particular worth a poop at high levels?
Daosus 08-30-06, 03:22 AM	There are two schools of thought to this. The first is that yes, they are, because they allow you to bring another combatant on the field, allow the Rogue to flank, block off your Wizard from the charging Orc-fiend, and what have you. If you're short on people (have a party of 2 or 3), summoners are great. The second school is that instant damage or death spells are better because you remove the threat quickly and therefore reduce teh damage it deals to you in combat. If you have a large party (5-6) summoners are not worth much. Summon spells are very versatile, because they act as a damage dealer, as a battlefield control spell (Which would you rather have, a Wall of Force or a Couatl?), and a damage soak. That being said, they pay for their versatility in power. I like them, you may not.
Dire Celestial Bonobo 08-30-06, 03:46 AM	Let's see, cast a fireball or summon a Celestial bison (or Fiendish dire bat if I'm evil)...hmmmm....tough choice. Well, considering the Celestial Bison has DR 5/magic, and an attack that hits at +8 for +9 damage (+14 vs. evil once per summon), it's actually a pretty good choice for a medium-level caster. Against a great many of the EL 5-8 encounters in the DMG, it's might well be more useful than 10-30 points of Fireball damage. Other combat-useful Summon Monster III choices are Fiendish Huge Monstrous Centipede (DR and cold/fire resistance, 2d6+4+poison attack, Reach) or Celestial Ape (DR, 3 attacks). Summon Monster spells can be very useful outside of combat as well -- consider the Hell Hound for tracking something down, the Celestial Hippogriff for short-term flying transportation -- or for increasing one's tactical options, such as summoning a Dretch to cast Stinking Cloud (as well as its good energy resistances); Summon Monster IV, with access to all the Mephits, is especially useful that way. Now, it's true that a single Summon Monster IX isn't going to take care of EL 20 encounters itself, but that shouldn't be a surprise -- it's only a single spell, after all, and such an encounter is expected to take 20% of the resources of an entire 20th-level party, not 3% of the resources of a single member. Still, it can give you 28d6 electricity damage per round (1d4+1 Avoral Guardinals), or Freedom of Movement and 60 points of healing for everyone in the party (Couatl), or a 230hp DR 10/- 15ft-Reach tank (Elder Elemental), or +37 Grapple (Fiendish Gargantuan Monstrous Scorpion), or 10d6 Fireballs/Hold Monster/Wall of Force every round plus someone else to cast Heal when it's needed (Leonal Guardinal), or ... Not encounter-winning in and of itself, certainly, but potentially very useful.
CaoSlayer 08-30-06, 04:41 AM	Instead of looking at the CR of the creature, take a look into the ECL of the creature summoned, a summon it is like another member of the party and it is one who would not herisate on spending everything he have and have no feat to die.
AntiDjinn 08-30-06, 04:46 AM	Monster Summoning and its cousins (Summon Nature's Ally, Astral Construct) put more combatants on the battlefield. Even if they are not strong enough to take down your opponent directly (the results of a single spell should neither equal nor exceed the combat output of your character) then can still assist. Always summon monsters with special abilities that would be useful given the situation. And remember that every point of damage and every critical hit that your summoned monsters soak up could have been dealt to a party member instead. So if you call up some CR 10 monsters against a level 17 wizard and they charge and get taken down by Power Word: Kill or Wail of the Banshee then what good was that? Well, it would have been you on the receiving end of that spell if you hadn't thrown cannon fodder in the way. The CR 8 monster that can't kill a CR 20 opponent can still grant your party rogue flanking so he can get in a kill shot. Outside of combat summoning makes for good utility if you know the capabilities of the beasties you can summon. Astral Constructs, for example, have pretty decent Str scores for their level and are great for lifting and moving heavy objects.
Maxxx 08-30-06, 05:33 AM	Of course as a conjurer you have to use different tactics, but as a cleric that uses a lot of summon monster spells plus planar ally, I can tell you that summons can save your day. In our last session I used lesser planar ally to call a canoloth (MMIII) to fight along our side and I can tell you he saved our collected a****, there were two encounters where we fought against creatures that would have riped my fighter friends apart or with high spell resistance, flight, and displacement were pretty much invulnerable to our wizard's prepared spells, but my little canoloth hit both with his tongue and both did not make the DC 17 Fortitude save and were paralyzed fro 3 respectively 5 minutes. This was of course only possible because I flooded the room with enough summoned creatures for my canoloth to get there savely.
King-bargh 08-30-06, 06:19 AM	Summon monster is FUN!!! :D Thats all the argument you need....
SamiPeikko 08-30-06, 08:35 AM	From my experience I'd say Summons I-IX are rarely usefull enough against CR 20+ We have a character partly specialized in Summons of that kind, and he hardly ever uses summons anymore. Only in special situations when either we or our enemy is somehow hindered by environment (for example Mythal prevents Fly spells and Dimension Door) they are the best choise of action. I expect things to be different in a lower power game, say 25p point buy against our rolled stats, and without AC boosted through the roof.
solbergb 08-30-06, 11:55 AM	Even at epic levels, some of the summon monster spells bring in outsiders with useful spell-like abilities. For combat? That's more in the 1-20 game and even that requires a character focus (augment summoning and rapid spell can really improve the flexibility of summoning). Often the point in not so much to bring in a combat monster as a "cork" - something to block/distract the enemy and durable enough to survive a few rounds of attention.
KyussWren 08-30-06, 11:56 AM	I have yet to see an epic summoning spell.
Radagast 08-30-06, 12:20 PM	Over the course of a campaign from 1-22 level, summoning spells proved to be quite useful. We had no dedicated Conjurers, nor did we use them all the time, but there are plenty of occassions where a summoning spell made a big difference: soaking up damage, blocking paths to fragile members, tying up big hitters for a few rounds, popping in next to enemy casters, etc. Their special abilities (elementals in particular) also proved to be useful. They aren't going to win high-level encounters, but they can soak up a decent amount of damage and spells that would normally be directed towards a party member. Every round wasted against a summoned creature is really a lost round in some ways, so I'd use them.
SageBahamut 08-30-06, 02:27 PM	Everyone is forgetting something. At level 20 he could also be casting Summon Golem. Nothing trumps 20 rounds of Iron Golem. And yeah, summon elemental monolith. Augment Summoning, Spell Focus (conjuration)... And if you're in the Realms, maybe Greenbound Summoning (although to be honest I haven't read what the "greenbound template" actually does).
gotbrain 08-30-06, 02:33 PM	Everyone is forgetting something. At level 20 he could also be casting Summon Golem. Nothing trumps 20 rounds of Iron Golem. And yeah, summon elemental monolith. Augment Summoning, Spell Focus (conjuration)... And if you're in the Realms, maybe Greenbound Summoning (although to be honest I haven't read what the "greenbound template" actually does). How about summon rust monster? (i guess you could always shape change into a rust monster too) I think that would make an interesting fight to see two summoners try to outdo each other. Remember the old Dieties and Demigods cover?
epifreak 08-30-06, 05:47 PM	I have yet to see an epic summoning spell. It probably wouldn't be that hard to throw one together, though.
Victor_Phoenix 08-30-06, 06:27 PM	I have yet to see an epic summoning spell. Um there is Epic Summoning Spells Summon Behemoth Conjuration (Summoning) Spellcraft DC: 72 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: 75 ft. Effect: Summoned creature Duration: 20 rounds (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No To Develop: 648,000 gp; 13 days; 25,920 XP. Seed: summon (DC 14). Factors: summon CR 21 creature (DC +38), 1-action casting time (+20 DC). The character can summon a behemoth to attack his or her enemies. It appears where the character designates and acts immediately, on the character’s turn. It attacks the character’s opponents to the best of its ability. If the character can communicate with the creature, he or she can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. Summoned creatures act normally on the last round of the spell and disappear at the end of their turn. Behemoth Behemoth Eagle Size/Type: Colossal Outsider (Extraplanar) Hit Dice: 21d8+126 (220 hp) Initiative: +20 (+12 Dex, +8 Superior Initiative) Speed: 20 ft., fly 160 ft. (poor) Armor Class: 24 (+12 Dex, -8 size, +10 natural) Base Attack/Grapple: +21/+44 Attack: Claw +25 melee (5d10+7) Full Attack: 2 claws +25 melee (5d10+7), bite +20 melee (4d12+3) Space/Reach: 30 ft./20 ft. Special Attacks: — Special Qualities: Evasion, SR 30 Saves: Fort +18, Ref +24, Will +18 Abilities: Str 25, Dex 34, Con 23 Int 17, Wis 19, Cha 16 Skills: Diplomacy +27, Jump +3, Knowledge (geography, history, nature, religion, the planes) +27, Listen +30, Search +27, Sense Motive +28, Spot +41, Survival +28 Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Flyby Attack, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Skill Focus (spot), Weapon Finesse Epic Feats: Superior Initiative Environment: Any forest, hill, mountains, and plains Organization: Solitary or pair Challenge Rating: 18 Treasure: None Alignment: Always neutral Advancement: 22-42 HD (Colossal) Behemoth Eagle Skills *A behemoth eagle receives a +8 racial bonus on Spot checks. Carrying Capacity A light load for a behemoth eagle is up to 2,400 pounds; a medium load, 2,401-4,800 pounds; and a heavy load, 4,801-7,200 pounds. Behemoth Gorilla Huge Outsider (Extraplanar) 21d8+282 (376 hp) +12 (+8 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative) 60 ft., climb 30 ft. 38 (+8 Dex, -2 size, +22 natural) +21/+39 Claw +29 melee (4d8+10) 2 claws +29 melee (4d8+10), bite +24 melee (3d10+5) 20 ft./20 ft. Rend 8d8+20 Scent, SR 30 Fort +24, Ref +20, Will +18 Str 31, Dex 26, Con 35 Int 6, Wis 15, Cha 12 Balance +32, Climb +42, Intimidate +25, Jump +34, Move Silently +32, Spot +26 Dodge, Endurance, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Mobility, Power Attack, Spring Attack Epic Toughness Warm forest and warm mountains Solitary or company (5-8) 19 None Always neutral 22-42 HD (Huge) Behemoth Gorilla Combat Rend (Ex) A behemoth gorilla that hits with both claw attacks latches onto the opponent’s body and tears the flesh. This automatically deals an additional 8d8+20 points of damage. Conjuration (Summoning) [Fire] Spellcraft DC: 38 Components: V, S, Ritual Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: 75 ft. Effect: One summoned adult red dragon Duration: 20 rounds (D) Saving Throw: None (see text) Spell Resistance: No To Develop: 342,000 gp; 7 days; 13,680 XP. Seed: summon (DC 14). Factors: summon creature other than outsider (+10 DC), summon CR 14 creature (+24 DC), 1-action casting time (+20 DC). Mitigating factor: two additional casters contributing 8th-level spell slots (-30 DC). This spell summons an adult red dragon. It appears where the character designates and acts immediately. It attacks the character’s opponents to the best of its abilities (on the first round, it prefers to breathe fire on an enemy, if possible). The character can direct the dragon not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. This is a ritual spell requiring two other spellcasters, each of which must contribute an unused 8th-level spell slot to the casting. Dragon Strike (Ritual) Conjuration (Summoning) [Fire] Spellcraft DC: 50 Components: V, S, Ritual, XP Casting Time: 10 minutes Range: 75 ft. Effect: Ten summoned adult red dragons Duration: 20 rounds (D) Saving Throw: None (see text) Spell Resistance: No To Develop: 450,000 gp; 9 days; 18,000 XP. Seed: summon (DC 14). Factors: summon creature other than outsider (+10 DC), summon CR 14 creature (+24 DC), summon ten creatures (x10 DC). Mitigating factors: eleven additional casters contributing 9th-level spell slots (-187 DC), burn 2,000 XP per caster (-240 DC), 3d6 backlash (-3 DC). This spell summons ten adult red dragons. They appear where the character designates and act immediately. They attack the character’s opponents to the best of their abilities (on the first round, they all prefer to simultaneously breathe fire on an enemy, if possible). The character can direct the dragons not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. XP Cost 2,000 XP (per caster). And building a epic summoning spell is fricking easy And you could summon something specific like I dont know. The tarasque? Conjuration (Summoning) Spellcraft DC: 14 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 minute Range: 75 ft. Effect: One summoned creature Duration: 20 rounds (D) Saving Throw: Will negates (see text) Spell Resistance: Yes (see text) This seed can summon an outsider. It appears where the caster designates and acts immediately, on his or her turn, if its spell resistance is overcome and it fails a Will saving throw. It attacks the caster’s opponents to the best of its ability. If the caster can communicate with the outsider, he or she can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. The spell conjures an outsider the caster selects of CR 2 or less. For each +1 CR of the summoned outsider, increase the Spellcraft DC by +2. For each additional outsider of the same Challenge Rating summoned, multiply the Spellcraft DC by ×2. When a caster develops a spell with the summon seed that summons an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, the completed spell is also of that type. If the caster increases the Spellcraft DC by +10, he or she can summon a creature of CR 2 or less from another monster type or subtype. The summoned creature is assumed to have been plucked from some other plane (or somewhere on the same plane). The summoned creature attacks the caster’s opponents to the best of its ability; or, if the caster can communicate with it, it will perform other actions. However, the summoning ends if the creature is asked to perform a task inimical to its nature. For each +1 CR of the summoned creature, increase the Spellcraft DC by +2. Finally, by increasing the Spellcraft DC by +60, the caster can summon a unique individual he or she specifies from anywhere in the multiverse. The caster must know the target’s name and some facts about its life, defeat any magical protection against discovery or other protection possessed by the target, and overcome the target’s spell resistance, and it must fail a Will saving throw. The target is under no special compulsion to serve the caster
Seeker95 08-30-06, 08:59 PM	Victor_Phoenix successfully casts summon epic information! :tiphat:
Victor_Phoenix 08-31-06, 12:32 PM	What can I say? I have trained many years, and I am an Archmagnus, I specialize in googlamancy! :mage: