Are there ways to add damage to a spell that normally doesn't? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Are there ways to add damage to a spell that normally doesn't? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lotus Crane
10-06-06, 01:35 AM Hey guys, are there any feats, classes, or items that allow a spellcaster to add even 1-2 points of damage (preferably electricity) to a spell that normally doesn't?

If you're wondering why, I was hoping to be able to add just a tiny bit of electricity damage to a great thunderclap spell, qualifying it for both the Born of the Three Thunders feat and the Thunderbolt ability of the Stormcaster PrC. The result would be an area spell that forces 2 Fort saves and 1 Will save against being stunned, 1 Fort save against being deafened, 2 Reflex saves against being knocked prone, and a minor splash of damage, all without allowing any SR.

If you think of anything that will let me pull this monstrosity off, let me know. ^_~
Polaris
10-06-06, 02:58 AM Lotus,

If you have the sneak-attack class ability (an Arcane Trickster for example), then you get to add your sneak-attack damage as negative energy damage to any ranged-attack spell that doesn't do actual damage but inflicts a penalizing condition (see Rules of the Game:Sneak Attack on the WOTC main site).

For example, ray of enfeeblement, ray of exhaustion, ect would do negative energy damage in addition to the spell effect if you hit with a ranged attack roll, AND had the sneak-attack class ability, AND you were otherwise entitled to sneak attack.

-Polaris
Lotus Crane
10-06-06, 06:51 AM Yes, I'm certainly aware of that (frankly, I'm suprised you would hold such a low opinion of me as to think I wouldn't know such a thing; I'm as well-aquainted with the rules in general as anybody), but I meant all spells, including non-attack roll-based spells, such as sleet storm, gust of wind, and the aforementioned great thunderclap.
tarkin
10-06-06, 10:48 AM Great Thunderclap is a [Sonic] Spell.

Born of the Three Thunders requires a spell to be either Electrical OR sonic

Also, you can use the metamagic feat Energy Substitution (electricity) to make it an electrical spell to qualify for Thunderbolt.
Nezkrul
10-06-06, 11:20 AM Black Lore of Moil adds negative energy damage to your spells, even if they don't do damage in the first place.

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Black_Lore_of_Moil,all
CantripN
10-06-06, 12:43 PM There's also the Bard PrC from Complete Mage that adds Sonic Damage to spells. Which would have them apply to Born of the Three Thunders, I hope. I'm yet to actually read the book.
Puca
10-06-06, 12:51 PM Lotus,

If you have the sneak-attack class ability (an Arcane Trickster for example), then you get to add your sneak-attack damage as negative energy damage to any ranged-attack spell that doesn't do actual damage but inflicts a penalizing condition (see Rules of the Game:Sneak Attack on the WOTC main site).

For example, ray of enfeeblement, ray of exhaustion, ect would do negative energy damage in addition to the spell effect if you hit with a ranged attack roll, AND had the sneak-attack class ability, AND you were otherwise entitled to sneak attack.

-Polaris
No, thats not true. You have to do some damage of some kind, any kind, to get SA damage. Spells as Sneak Attacks

Any spell that requires an attack roll and deals damage can be used in a sneak attack. In this case "damage" is normal damage, nonlethal damage, ability damage, or energy drain. You can sneak attack with a Melf's acid arrow spell, but not with a magic missile spell.
Lotus Crane
10-06-06, 01:02 PM Great Thunderclap is a [Sonic] Spell.

Born of the Three Thunders requires a spell to be either Electrical OR sonic
Born of the Three Thunders also requires that the spell does damage in the first place, which great thunderclap doesn't. Hence, why I was looking for a way to add damage to spells that normally don't.

Black Lore of Moil adds negative energy damage to your spells, even if they don't do damage in the first place.
Hmm, that's getting somewhere, except it only applies to necromancy spells. I was looking for some way to add damage to great thunderclap, which is a non-damaging evocation school spell.
Polaris
10-06-06, 01:47 PM No, thats not true. You have to do some damage of some kind, any kind, to get SA damage.

Not true. Readread "Rules of the Game".

Edit: That definition of "damage" is different (as I read it) from what Lotus was talking about. You do get SA damage from ray of enfeeblement and from ennervation.

-Polaris
Puca
10-06-06, 02:03 PM Um, I posted the relevant part, I think.

If there is something else in another location in that article, or one of the other three, could you point me in the right direction because, otherwise, I will continue to think that "Any spell that requires an attack roll and deals damage can be used in a sneak attack" means that the spell has to deal damage.

A penalty is not damage. Neither is it energy drain as is the case with Enervation, which is explicitly allowed according to that article. (My original post was based on your assertion regarding Ray of Enfeeblement and Ray of Exhaustion.)
User5127
10-06-06, 02:27 PM what about talking with your DM to make a higher level "great Thunder Clap" spell that also does some sonic damage?

since it would make sense that a load noise like a thunder clap could hurt. :p

just a thought.

and besides that i don't think there are ANY "feats, classes, or items that allow a spellcaster to add even 1-2 points of damage (preferably electricity) to a spell that normally doesn't?"

but mind you i haven't read every dnd publication. and i could have missed something somewhere.
but the easiest thing would seem to be to just make your own spell so that you can qualify for born of three thunders. ^_^

note: that would also add RP value, since you are "born" of three thunders and you created one of the spells, it would add more depth to your character, and possibly a quest to get that spell researched. hmmm free plot hook. discuss with dm?
Lotus Crane
10-06-06, 04:40 PM Not true. Readread "Rules of the Game".

Edit: That definition of "damage" is different (as I read it) from what Lotus was talking about. You do get SA damage from ray of enfeeblement and from ennervation.
Well, SA only applies to spells that involve an attack roll, and I'm trying to add damage to non-attack roll spells, such as great thunderclap.

what about talking with your DM to make a higher level "great Thunder Clap" spell that also does some sonic damage?
I was hoping for a solution that didn't require a higher level spell slot, much like Born of the Three Thunders itself. After all, the campaign is just starting at, out a rather humble 2nd level, so it would help if I could pull this off as soon as possible.
Ikeren
10-06-06, 04:48 PM Is it going to be game breaking or thematic? I don't know the Storm caster very well.

That being said, if Incanatrix and other strong caster-PRC's are easier to get into and provide better mechanical benefits, just ask permission to make it do 1 damage and qualify for the PRC. Explain how it fits in with the character concept and how it isn't mechanically broken, but more just a cool little way to make your character have more depth.

If it is strong/powerful, good luck :D
User5127
10-06-06, 05:07 PM I was hoping for a solution that didn't require a higher level spell slot, much like Born of the Three Thunders itself. After all, the campaign is just starting at, out a rather humble 2nd level, so it would help if I could pull this off as soon as possible.

well then you could always create lower level spells that do that for you then, mabye not the spells you want to you, but you can get them later. so i'd just make some level 1 & 2 spells that do what you need, then grab the rest later for your theme when you are ready.
if you only need three spells... isn;t there a 0lvl spell for electrical and sonic respectively, and lesser orb spells? shocking grasp? etc.?
Lotus Crane
10-06-06, 05:31 PM well then you could always create lower level spells that do that for you then, mabye not the spells you want to you, but you can get them later. so i'd just make some level 1 & 2 spells that do what you need, then grab the rest later for your theme when you are ready.
if you only need three spells... isn;t there a 0lvl spell for electrical and sonic respectively, and lesser orb spells? shocking grasp? etc.?
Yes, but they aren't area effects, and most of them allow SR.

The entire point of the great thunderclap/1 added point of electricity damage/Thunderbolt/Born of the Three Thunders combo isn't really to do significant damage (it won't), but to create a 20 foot radius effect that forces all creatures to make 3 saves against being stunned, 1 save against being deafened, and 2 saves against being knocked prone, all without allowing SR.
smrtgmp
10-06-06, 11:34 PM Edit: That definition of "damage" is different (as I read it) from what Lotus was talking about. You do get SA damage from ray of enfeeblement and from ennervation.Ray of Enfeeblement inflicts a penalty; it doesnt do damage. As such, I dont see how it would qualify for sneak attack.

Enervation, on the other hand, is definately a valid candidate for SA.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lotus Crane 10-06-06, 01:35 AM	Hey guys, are there any feats, classes, or items that allow a spellcaster to add even 1-2 points of damage (preferably electricity) to a spell that normally doesn't? If you're wondering why, I was hoping to be able to add just a tiny bit of electricity damage to a great thunderclap spell, qualifying it for both the Born of the Three Thunders feat and the Thunderbolt ability of the Stormcaster PrC. The result would be an area spell that forces 2 Fort saves and 1 Will save against being stunned, 1 Fort save against being deafened, 2 Reflex saves against being knocked prone, and a minor splash of damage, all without allowing any SR. If you think of anything that will let me pull this monstrosity off, let me know. ^_~
Polaris 10-06-06, 02:58 AM	Lotus, If you have the sneak-attack class ability (an Arcane Trickster for example), then you get to add your sneak-attack damage as negative energy damage to any ranged-attack spell that doesn't do actual damage but inflicts a penalizing condition (see Rules of the Game:Sneak Attack on the WOTC main site). For example, ray of enfeeblement, ray of exhaustion, ect would do negative energy damage in addition to the spell effect if you hit with a ranged attack roll, AND had the sneak-attack class ability, AND you were otherwise entitled to sneak attack. -Polaris
Lotus Crane 10-06-06, 06:51 AM	Yes, I'm certainly aware of that (frankly, I'm suprised you would hold such a low opinion of me as to think I wouldn't know such a thing; I'm as well-aquainted with the rules in general as anybody), but I meant all spells, including non-attack roll-based spells, such as sleet storm, gust of wind, and the aforementioned great thunderclap.
tarkin 10-06-06, 10:48 AM	Great Thunderclap is a [Sonic] Spell. Born of the Three Thunders requires a spell to be either Electrical OR sonic Also, you can use the metamagic feat Energy Substitution (electricity) to make it an electrical spell to qualify for Thunderbolt.
Nezkrul 10-06-06, 11:20 AM	Black Lore of Moil adds negative energy damage to your spells, even if they don't do damage in the first place. http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Black_Lore_of_Moil,all
CantripN 10-06-06, 12:43 PM	There's also the Bard PrC from Complete Mage that adds Sonic Damage to spells. Which would have them apply to Born of the Three Thunders, I hope. I'm yet to actually read the book.
Puca 10-06-06, 12:51 PM	Lotus, If you have the sneak-attack class ability (an Arcane Trickster for example), then you get to add your sneak-attack damage as negative energy damage to any ranged-attack spell that doesn't do actual damage but inflicts a penalizing condition (see Rules of the Game:Sneak Attack on the WOTC main site). For example, ray of enfeeblement, ray of exhaustion, ect would do negative energy damage in addition to the spell effect if you hit with a ranged attack roll, AND had the sneak-attack class ability, AND you were otherwise entitled to sneak attack. -Polaris No, thats not true. You have to do some damage of some kind, any kind, to get SA damage. Spells as Sneak Attacks Any spell that requires an attack roll and deals damage can be used in a sneak attack. In this case "damage" is normal damage, nonlethal damage, ability damage, or energy drain. You can sneak attack with a Melf's acid arrow spell, but not with a magic missile spell.
Lotus Crane 10-06-06, 01:02 PM	Great Thunderclap is a [Sonic] Spell. Born of the Three Thunders requires a spell to be either Electrical OR sonic Born of the Three Thunders also requires that the spell does damage in the first place, which great thunderclap doesn't. Hence, why I was looking for a way to add damage to spells that normally don't. Black Lore of Moil adds negative energy damage to your spells, even if they don't do damage in the first place. Hmm, that's getting somewhere, except it only applies to necromancy spells. I was looking for some way to add damage to great thunderclap, which is a non-damaging evocation school spell.
Polaris 10-06-06, 01:47 PM	No, thats not true. You have to do some damage of some kind, any kind, to get SA damage. Not true. Readread "Rules of the Game". Edit: That definition of "damage" is different (as I read it) from what Lotus was talking about. You do get SA damage from ray of enfeeblement and from ennervation. -Polaris
Puca 10-06-06, 02:03 PM	Um, I posted the relevant part, I think. If there is something else in another location in that article, or one of the other three, could you point me in the right direction because, otherwise, I will continue to think that "Any spell that requires an attack roll and deals damage can be used in a sneak attack" means that the spell has to deal damage. A penalty is not damage. Neither is it energy drain as is the case with Enervation, which is explicitly allowed according to that article. (My original post was based on your assertion regarding Ray of Enfeeblement and Ray of Exhaustion.)
User5127 10-06-06, 02:27 PM	what about talking with your DM to make a higher level "great Thunder Clap" spell that also does some sonic damage? since it would make sense that a load noise like a thunder clap could hurt. :p just a thought. and besides that i don't think there are ANY "feats, classes, or items that allow a spellcaster to add even 1-2 points of damage (preferably electricity) to a spell that normally doesn't?" but mind you i haven't read every dnd publication. and i could have missed something somewhere. but the easiest thing would seem to be to just make your own spell so that you can qualify for born of three thunders. ^_^ note: that would also add RP value, since you are "born" of three thunders and you created one of the spells, it would add more depth to your character, and possibly a quest to get that spell researched. hmmm free plot hook. discuss with dm?
Lotus Crane 10-06-06, 04:40 PM	Not true. Readread "Rules of the Game". Edit: That definition of "damage" is different (as I read it) from what Lotus was talking about. You do get SA damage from ray of enfeeblement and from ennervation. Well, SA only applies to spells that involve an attack roll, and I'm trying to add damage to non-attack roll spells, such as great thunderclap. what about talking with your DM to make a higher level "great Thunder Clap" spell that also does some sonic damage? I was hoping for a solution that didn't require a higher level spell slot, much like Born of the Three Thunders itself. After all, the campaign is just starting at, out a rather humble 2nd level, so it would help if I could pull this off as soon as possible.
Ikeren 10-06-06, 04:48 PM	Is it going to be game breaking or thematic? I don't know the Storm caster very well. That being said, if Incanatrix and other strong caster-PRC's are easier to get into and provide better mechanical benefits, just ask permission to make it do 1 damage and qualify for the PRC. Explain how it fits in with the character concept and how it isn't mechanically broken, but more just a cool little way to make your character have more depth. If it is strong/powerful, good luck :D
User5127 10-06-06, 05:07 PM	I was hoping for a solution that didn't require a higher level spell slot, much like Born of the Three Thunders itself. After all, the campaign is just starting at, out a rather humble 2nd level, so it would help if I could pull this off as soon as possible. well then you could always create lower level spells that do that for you then, mabye not the spells you want to you, but you can get them later. so i'd just make some level 1 & 2 spells that do what you need, then grab the rest later for your theme when you are ready. if you only need three spells... isn;t there a 0lvl spell for electrical and sonic respectively, and lesser orb spells? shocking grasp? etc.?
Lotus Crane 10-06-06, 05:31 PM	well then you could always create lower level spells that do that for you then, mabye not the spells you want to you, but you can get them later. so i'd just make some level 1 & 2 spells that do what you need, then grab the rest later for your theme when you are ready. if you only need three spells... isn;t there a 0lvl spell for electrical and sonic respectively, and lesser orb spells? shocking grasp? etc.? Yes, but they aren't area effects, and most of them allow SR. The entire point of the great thunderclap/1 added point of electricity damage/Thunderbolt/Born of the Three Thunders combo isn't really to do significant damage (it won't), but to create a 20 foot radius effect that forces all creatures to make 3 saves against being stunned, 1 save against being deafened, and 2 saves against being knocked prone, all without allowing SR.
smrtgmp 10-06-06, 11:34 PM	Edit: That definition of "damage" is different (as I read it) from what Lotus was talking about. You do get SA damage from ray of enfeeblement and from ennervation.Ray of Enfeeblement inflicts a penalty; it doesnt do damage. As such, I dont see how it would qualify for sneak attack. Enervation, on the other hand, is definately a valid candidate for SA.