Area spells and targetting [Archive] - Wizards Community

Area spells and targetting [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
mussor
01-02-07, 07:04 PM Hi all,

Question came up during a gaming session about the targetting of fireball.

Can you launch a Fireball into a dark room, to say a point 100 ft into it, or do you need line of sight?

Of course any object in the line of effect would stop (and detonate?) the fireball on its way there, but the point is about being able to select the point of origin in the first place.

The way I read the PhB, targetted spells (e.g. Magic Missile, ray attacks, etc.) need line of sight, but Fireballs and other "point of effect" spells could be fired into the darkness, like, let's say, a precise hand grenade toss. :D My DM leans toward a "LOS is always needed" rule in spellcasting.

Now, I am looking for your interpretation on this. I am not looking for houserules or opinions on what would be most realistic, just the yes-no answer from interpretation in the books.

Thanks!
Vegepygmy
01-02-07, 07:47 PM Can you launch a Fireball into a dark room, to say a point 100 ft into it...?Yes.

Some spells, such as summon monster spells, create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present. You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it (for example, “The insect plague will appear 20 feet into the area of darkness that the nagas are hiding in”).I really don't see how your DM could think "LOS is always needed," given the underlined text.
mussor
01-02-07, 08:20 PM Yes.

I really don't see how your DM could think "LOS is always needed," given the underlined text.

Thanks Vegepygmy! Anyone else that can help out more specifically with the area spells and the line-of-sight issue above (as one could perhaps see summoning spells as an exception, I dunno...:)
Seeker95
01-02-07, 08:23 PM Silly VP. The text isn't underlined in the PHB! :P

Mussor, how much more spelled out do you (or your DM) need it?
Nom
01-02-07, 08:46 PM Only point to add: if you don't have line of effect (as opposed to line of sight) to your designated origin, the spell will fail. Or detonate prematurely in the case of fireball, but that's an exception.

It's important to understand the distinction between LoS and LoE. "Target" spells require both. "Area" spells require LoE only. A few unusual spells (mainly teleportation or some divinations) require neither.
mussor
01-03-07, 04:50 AM Silly VP. The text isn't underlined in the PHB! :P

Mussor, how much more spelled out do you (or your DM) need it?

Thanks! Well, it is one of those where you would like to find it spelled out - "requires line of effect but not LOS" or the like. Our group is very orthodox when it comes to following the rules! :)
Caligula
01-03-07, 01:19 PM Im the Dm in Mussor's group.

First, I never said "you always need Line of Sight". For instance, you can fire a magical ray into darkness. However, it will still be subject to ranged touch attack and misschance. And I agree that summoning spells for instance may be designated as "20 ft into the darkness". (PHB p.175).

I just feel that you need to see the point of origin for the Fireball, since you must designate the point of origin for the blast. The "target" here is the grid intersection where you want the point of origin to be. The DMG p.21 says "If line of sight is completely blocked, a character can't cast spells against the target." Darkness blocks line of sight unless you have darkvision.

Our group has always played like this, and it may be wrong. But I think it's quite rude of some here at the boards to say that "what will it take for him to understand" and likewise. I think the rules here are dubious and unclear, and sometimes people will just have different points of view.

I have re-read the entire Magic-chapter AND the DMG this evening, and my poinit of view is still that you need to have a line of sight to the designated point of origin for Fireball and all other spells that need a designated point of origin.

Again, I may be wrong, but that's my honest view on the matter.
Neutronium_Dragon
01-03-07, 01:45 PM It may be your honest view and you how feel, but it's also contrary to the rules as written - which is why people are taking issue with it.

The DMG is correct in stating that you need line of sight to target someone with a spell - but only "target" spells actually target anyone or anything.

Fireball and its ilk have a point of origin, but this is not (rules wise) a target. The glossary definition reinforces that - a target is a subject that you cast a spell on, not a point of origin.
Caligula
01-03-07, 02:40 PM It may be your honest view and you how feel, but it's also contrary to the rules as written - which is why people are taking issue with it.

The DMG is correct in stating that you need line of sight to target someone with a spell - but only "target" spells actually target anyone or anything.

Fireball and its ilk have a point of origin, but this is not (rules wise) a target. The glossary definition reinforces that - a target is a subject that you cast a spell on, not a point of origin.

That´s your interpretation. This is exactly what the DMG says: (DMG p.21)

"If line of sight is completely blocked, a character can't cast spells or use ranged weapons against the target."

I would say that this at least gives room for different interpretations.

Where in the rules does it say that you only need line of sight when you target a person or an object? I haven't seen that. Nowhere is it written that you do NOT need a line of sight to the designated point of origin of the fireball. You may interpret it that way, but it doesn't clearly say so.

And remember that you don't always need line of sight when firing a spell at a target such as a person or object, which you suggest. You can for instance fire a magic ray into the dark blindly. (PHB p.175 "Aiming a spell")

I may be wrong, but I think the rules are unclear here, and I think it can be assumed that you would need a line of sight to the designated point of origin of a Fireball.
Neutronium_Dragon
01-03-07, 03:53 PM Your mention of rays actually illustrates my point above.

"Target" is defined in the glossary on P314 of the PHB.

"Aiming a Spell" on P175 of the PHB differentiates between the different types. Some spells affect targets (and these require line of sight - the PHB states this even before the DMG does).

Others have an Effect - and that includes the rays which you keep mentioning, and which are specifically talked about under Effect. Note too that Effect also specifically states (in its second paragraph) that you do not need to see the creature (no line of sight), unlike a targeted spell (Effect spells do not have targets).

Area spells also do not have targets (the word target does not appear anywhere in the description of Area spells); they have a point of origin, which does not make any mention of requiring line of sight.

All three *do* require line of effect (which is stated on P176), and specifically state how and what happens if you don't. But here again we see three different terms: spells with a target, spells with an effect, and spells with a point of origin - only the first set has a target, and any statement concerning targets only relates to the first category.

The glossary entry for target backs this up: When you cast a spell on a target, that thing is the subject of the spell - and area spells don't have a subject; the spell is centered on a point in space, but it's not cast on anything in particular.
TrustTymora
01-03-07, 04:23 PM Where in the rules does it say that you only need line of sight when you target a person or an object?

From the SRD:

Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.

Would this not mean that those spells that don't have a target or targets, such as those with an effect, do not require you to be able to see or touch the target?

You have already seen the other rule for spells that are not listed as having target/targets - designate the location either by seeing or defining it.

In reading the fireball description I would assume that a wizard on New Years Eve would be able to close his eyes and specify that he wanted to shoot a fireball staight up 400 feet into the air. With his eyes closed there is obviously no line of sight but to determine what happens in the game a grid intersection 400 feet straight up from the wizard would be used as the point of origin (I let the player select the exact corner but in this case it would be fine to determine randomly since no LoS) for the spread effect and any flying creatures in the area of effect would take damage. Of course this assumes that there were no intervening obstacles that blocked line of effect.

This is how I would play it.

At this point in time I do not like your interpretation that the grid intersection is the target. In my mind the grid intersection is a game mechanic to help determine what is affected by the spell.

TT
Vegepygmy
01-03-07, 06:46 PM Hopefully, this will settle it for Caligula:

Do you need to see the target of spells such as chain lightning, fireball, and blade barrier? Could you target people inside a fog cloud, obscuring mist, or deeper darkness area without being able to see them?

If the spell has a Target entry, you must be able to see or touch the subject to use the spell. The chain lighting spell has a Target entry, so you must be able to see or touch your target to use the spell. If a spell has an Area or Effect entry (fireball has an Area entry; blade barrier has an Effect entry) instead of a Target, you don’t actually have to see your subjects. You can simply state where the effect or area will originate and any subject you happen to catch within the effect or area will be affected by the spell. If you can’t see the point where the area or effect will originate, you must specify exactly where that point lies. For example, you can say your fireball spell will detonate exactly 30 feet away from you at the height of your shoulder. You need an unobstructed line of effect between you and the point of origin you specify (see page 150 in the Player’s Handbook).

If the spell has an Effect entry and normally requires an attack roll against a specific target, you still can hit an unseen target, provided you have an unobstructed line of effect. To strike the unseen target, use the rules for attacking an invisible target. That is, to have any chance of success, you must select a particular 5-foot-square area to attack. If the area you select does not contain a subject, you miss with the spell. If the area you’ve selected does contain a subject, you still have a 50% chance to miss the subject. If you beat the miss chance, you can roll a normal attack against the subject and the subject is affected by the spell if you hit. See page 78 in the DUNGEON MASTER’s GUIDE for more details on the procedures for attacking invisible foes.
MarkusTay63
01-04-07, 12:17 AM Nice Vegepygmy. :D

I was going to back-up TrustTymora's post, by pointing out that what she describes is exactly what happens at a mage fair. The contestants have a fireball contest by seeing who can make the biggest by simply 'firing into the air'. There is never any target, they are just shooting randomly in a general direction (up).

However, Vegepygmy got the point across so I can go back to sleep now. :P
Undrhil
01-04-07, 12:42 AM Vegepygmy: You have actually supported Caligula's DM ruling with your quoted text.

You need an unobstructed line of effect between you and the point of origin you specify (see page 150 in the Player’s Handbook).

Now, the key phrase here is unobstructed line of effect. By definition, unobstructed is the opposite of obstructed. Obstructed is defined:

ob·struct
- To block or fill (a passage) with obstacles or an obstacle.
- To impede, retard, or interfere with; hinder: obstructed my progress.
- To get in the way of so as to hide from sight.
(emphasis mine.)

If a caster specifies a point within a cloud of darkness, for all intents and purposes, that cloud of darkness is obstructing the line of sight to that point in space. Now, if the caster was intimately familiar with the area in question, I would say there is no issue here (as with the teleport spell) but if the caster is in an unfamiliar dungeon and is trying to cast a fireball into a room he's never seen before and that room is darkened, I'd say he can't fire the fireball into the room.

Are there rules in place for "blind casting" though? Just taking a spell and casting it at whatever happens to be in the room? If not, this might be a houserule issue. If there are, then I'd say the caster should be blind-casting into the room, not trying to target a point in space obstructed by darkness.

Undrhil
journeyman777
01-04-07, 01:05 AM Now, the key phrase here is unobstructed line of effect. By definition, unobstructed is the opposite of obstructed. Obstructed is defined:

Quote:
ob·struct
- To block or fill (a passage) with obstacles or an obstacle.
- To impede, retard, or interfere with; hinder: obstructed my progress.
- To get in the way of so as to hide from sight.

(emphasis mine.)You should know better than to mix english definitions with D&D definitions. Since line of effect specifically ignores concealment, that definition is at least partially incorrect and entirely irrelevant. D&D only recognizes three conditions when targeting.

1. Target has total cover = no line of effect.
2. Target has total concealment = no line of sight.
3. Neither of thee above.

All spells function in condition 3.
Spells with a "Target" entry fail in condition 2.
All spells fail in condition 1.

(The above rules are general and may be overridden in the case of spells that specify otherwise in their descriptions. Spells may also fail do to an invalid target type or SR)
Undrhil
01-04-07, 01:09 AM Ok. So, how do you define "total cover" or how do you determine whether or not a spell has "line of effect" as opposed to "line of sight". Well, I know how to tell if a spell has line of sight, at least. :)
Ramenth
01-04-07, 02:27 AM As was said above, you're confusing LoE and LoS. Just because you can't see a specific object in a dark room doesnt mean you can't throw things into it. With a non AoE spell you're unlikely to hit anything, but with an AoE effect it doesnt matter if your aim is slightly off; Chances are the explosion will catch something anyway.
Vegepygmy
01-04-07, 04:07 AM Ok. So, how do you define "total cover" or how do you determine whether or not a spell has "line of effect" as opposed to "line of sight".RTFM.

Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight."Total cover" is defined on page 152. You'll have to look it up yourself.
mussor
01-04-07, 05:52 AM I think Vegepygmy's quote from the 3.0 FAQ contains the most unambigous statement, underlined by me below:

Hopefully, this will settle it for Caligula: (snip)

If the spell has a Target entry, you must be able to see or touch the subject to use the spell. The chain lighting spell has a Target entry, so you must be able to see or touch your target to use the spell. If a spell has an Area or Effect entry (fireball has an Area entry; blade barrier has an Effect entry) instead of a Target, you don’t actually have to see your subjects. You can simply state where the effect or area will originate and any subject you happen to catch within the effect or area will be affected by the spell. If you can’t see the point where the area or effect will originate, you must specify exactly where that point lies. For example, you can say your fireball spell will detonate exactly 30 feet away from you at the height of your shoulder. You need an unobstructed line of effect between you and the point of origin you specify (see page 150 in the Player’s Handbook).

If the line of effect is obstructed, unknown to the caster, it will of course be blocked in transit. But that is a different story. :)
Neutronium_Dragon
01-04-07, 08:18 AM Undrhil: Line of Sight determines whether you've got a visual path to something, whereas Line of Effect determines whether you've got a physical path to something.

Most spells require Line of Effect; as noted elsewhere, some divinations and teleportation effects are the main ones that don't. You need a physical path to a target, point of origin, or effect, whether or not you can see it.

Line of Sight is required for target-based spells, but not for others. I can't think offhand of any spells which require Line of Sight but not Line of Effect, but generally if you don't have LoE you won't have LoS either. (Wall of Force providing one possible exception.)
Nom
01-04-07, 05:01 PM That´s your interpretation. This is exactly what the DMG says: (DMG p.21)

"If line of sight is completely blocked, a character can't cast spells or use ranged weapons against the target."Agreed. The DMG is giving summary rules for targeting creatures.

If you instead look at the definitive rules for aiming spells ("Aiming a Spell", PH pg 175), you will see that it designates three different methods of aiming, depending on the spell's target / effect / area entry.

Target spells explicitly require LoS or touch: "you must be able to see or touch the target".

Effect spells explicitly do not require LoS: "either by seeing it or definining it" (emphasis mine).

Area spells don't explicitly say that you don't require LoS (or touch) to the origin, but see the following sub-section: "Line of Effect" (pg 176). Line of effect is explicitly not blocked by "fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight". It is "canceled by a solid barrier". fireball is given as an example of a spell which requires clear "line of effect" to the origin. Given that this demonstrates the LoE rules, its pretty obvious that it doesn't require LoS.

Note that although ray spells and area spells can be sent into areas you can't see, this has its own problems. As mentioned above, you need to be sure that something isn't going to block LoE. Further, you also need to locate your enemies, and the Listen checks to do so aren't easy. However, assuming that you do know where your enemies are and that nothing will block your attack, you can (unambiguously RAW) blindly send in a fireball without difficulty.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mussor 01-02-07, 07:04 PM	Hi all, Question came up during a gaming session about the targetting of fireball. Can you launch a Fireball into a dark room, to say a point 100 ft into it, or do you need line of sight? Of course any object in the line of effect would stop (and detonate?) the fireball on its way there, but the point is about being able to select the point of origin in the first place. The way I read the PhB, targetted spells (e.g. Magic Missile, ray attacks, etc.) need line of sight, but Fireballs and other "point of effect" spells could be fired into the darkness, like, let's say, a precise hand grenade toss. :D My DM leans toward a "LOS is always needed" rule in spellcasting. Now, I am looking for your interpretation on this. I am not looking for houserules or opinions on what would be most realistic, just the yes-no answer from interpretation in the books. Thanks!
Vegepygmy 01-02-07, 07:47 PM	Can you launch a Fireball into a dark room, to say a point 100 ft into it...?Yes. Some spells, such as summon monster spells, create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present. You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it (for example, “The insect plague will appear 20 feet into the area of darkness that the nagas are hiding in”).I really don't see how your DM could think "LOS is always needed," given the underlined text.
mussor 01-02-07, 08:20 PM	Yes. I really don't see how your DM could think "LOS is always needed," given the underlined text. Thanks Vegepygmy! Anyone else that can help out more specifically with the area spells and the line-of-sight issue above (as one could perhaps see summoning spells as an exception, I dunno...:)
Seeker95 01-02-07, 08:23 PM	Silly VP. The text isn't underlined in the PHB! :P Mussor, how much more spelled out do you (or your DM) need it?
Nom 01-02-07, 08:46 PM	Only point to add: if you don't have line of effect (as opposed to line of sight) to your designated origin, the spell will fail. Or detonate prematurely in the case of fireball, but that's an exception. It's important to understand the distinction between LoS and LoE. "Target" spells require both. "Area" spells require LoE only. A few unusual spells (mainly teleportation or some divinations) require neither.
mussor 01-03-07, 04:50 AM	Silly VP. The text isn't underlined in the PHB! :P Mussor, how much more spelled out do you (or your DM) need it? Thanks! Well, it is one of those where you would like to find it spelled out - "requires line of effect but not LOS" or the like. Our group is very orthodox when it comes to following the rules! :)
Caligula 01-03-07, 01:19 PM	Im the Dm in Mussor's group. First, I never said "you always need Line of Sight". For instance, you can fire a magical ray into darkness. However, it will still be subject to ranged touch attack and misschance. And I agree that summoning spells for instance may be designated as "20 ft into the darkness". (PHB p.175). I just feel that you need to see the point of origin for the Fireball, since you must designate the point of origin for the blast. The "target" here is the grid intersection where you want the point of origin to be. The DMG p.21 says "If line of sight is completely blocked, a character can't cast spells against the target." Darkness blocks line of sight unless you have darkvision. Our group has always played like this, and it may be wrong. But I think it's quite rude of some here at the boards to say that "what will it take for him to understand" and likewise. I think the rules here are dubious and unclear, and sometimes people will just have different points of view. I have re-read the entire Magic-chapter AND the DMG this evening, and my poinit of view is still that you need to have a line of sight to the designated point of origin for Fireball and all other spells that need a designated point of origin. Again, I may be wrong, but that's my honest view on the matter.
Neutronium_Dragon 01-03-07, 01:45 PM	It may be your honest view and you how feel, but it's also contrary to the rules as written - which is why people are taking issue with it. The DMG is correct in stating that you need line of sight to target someone with a spell - but only "target" spells actually target anyone or anything. Fireball and its ilk have a point of origin, but this is not (rules wise) a target. The glossary definition reinforces that - a target is a subject that you cast a spell on, not a point of origin.
Caligula 01-03-07, 02:40 PM	It may be your honest view and you how feel, but it's also contrary to the rules as written - which is why people are taking issue with it. The DMG is correct in stating that you need line of sight to target someone with a spell - but only "target" spells actually target anyone or anything. Fireball and its ilk have a point of origin, but this is not (rules wise) a target. The glossary definition reinforces that - a target is a subject that you cast a spell on, not a point of origin. That´s your interpretation. This is exactly what the DMG says: (DMG p.21) "If line of sight is completely blocked, a character can't cast spells or use ranged weapons against the target." I would say that this at least gives room for different interpretations. Where in the rules does it say that you only need line of sight when you target a person or an object? I haven't seen that. Nowhere is it written that you do NOT need a line of sight to the designated point of origin of the fireball. You may interpret it that way, but it doesn't clearly say so. And remember that you don't always need line of sight when firing a spell at a target such as a person or object, which you suggest. You can for instance fire a magic ray into the dark blindly. (PHB p.175 "Aiming a spell") I may be wrong, but I think the rules are unclear here, and I think it can be assumed that you would need a line of sight to the designated point of origin of a Fireball.
Neutronium_Dragon 01-03-07, 03:53 PM	Your mention of rays actually illustrates my point above. "Target" is defined in the glossary on P314 of the PHB. "Aiming a Spell" on P175 of the PHB differentiates between the different types. Some spells affect targets (and these require line of sight - the PHB states this even before the DMG does). Others have an Effect - and that includes the rays which you keep mentioning, and which are specifically talked about under Effect. Note too that Effect also specifically states (in its second paragraph) that you do not need to see the creature (no line of sight), unlike a targeted spell (Effect spells do not have targets). Area spells also do not have targets (the word target does not appear anywhere in the description of Area spells); they have a point of origin, which does not make any mention of requiring line of sight. All three do require line of effect (which is stated on P176), and specifically state how and what happens if you don't. But here again we see three different terms: spells with a target, spells with an effect, and spells with a point of origin - only the first set has a target, and any statement concerning targets only relates to the first category. The glossary entry for target backs this up: When you cast a spell on a target, that thing is the subject of the spell - and area spells don't have a subject; the spell is centered on a point in space, but it's not cast on anything in particular.
TrustTymora 01-03-07, 04:23 PM	Where in the rules does it say that you only need line of sight when you target a person or an object? From the SRD: Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell. Would this not mean that those spells that don't have a target or targets, such as those with an effect, do not require you to be able to see or touch the target? You have already seen the other rule for spells that are not listed as having target/targets - designate the location either by seeing or defining it. In reading the fireball description I would assume that a wizard on New Years Eve would be able to close his eyes and specify that he wanted to shoot a fireball staight up 400 feet into the air. With his eyes closed there is obviously no line of sight but to determine what happens in the game a grid intersection 400 feet straight up from the wizard would be used as the point of origin (I let the player select the exact corner but in this case it would be fine to determine randomly since no LoS) for the spread effect and any flying creatures in the area of effect would take damage. Of course this assumes that there were no intervening obstacles that blocked line of effect. This is how I would play it. At this point in time I do not like your interpretation that the grid intersection is the target. In my mind the grid intersection is a game mechanic to help determine what is affected by the spell. TT
Vegepygmy 01-03-07, 06:46 PM	Hopefully, this will settle it for Caligula: Do you need to see the target of spells such as chain lightning, fireball, and blade barrier? Could you target people inside a fog cloud, obscuring mist, or deeper darkness area without being able to see them? If the spell has a Target entry, you must be able to see or touch the subject to use the spell. The chain lighting spell has a Target entry, so you must be able to see or touch your target to use the spell. If a spell has an Area or Effect entry (fireball has an Area entry; blade barrier has an Effect entry) instead of a Target, you don’t actually have to see your subjects. You can simply state where the effect or area will originate and any subject you happen to catch within the effect or area will be affected by the spell. If you can’t see the point where the area or effect will originate, you must specify exactly where that point lies. For example, you can say your fireball spell will detonate exactly 30 feet away from you at the height of your shoulder. You need an unobstructed line of effect between you and the point of origin you specify (see page 150 in the Player’s Handbook). If the spell has an Effect entry and normally requires an attack roll against a specific target, you still can hit an unseen target, provided you have an unobstructed line of effect. To strike the unseen target, use the rules for attacking an invisible target. That is, to have any chance of success, you must select a particular 5-foot-square area to attack. If the area you select does not contain a subject, you miss with the spell. If the area you’ve selected does contain a subject, you still have a 50% chance to miss the subject. If you beat the miss chance, you can roll a normal attack against the subject and the subject is affected by the spell if you hit. See page 78 in the DUNGEON MASTER’s GUIDE for more details on the procedures for attacking invisible foes.
MarkusTay63 01-04-07, 12:17 AM	Nice Vegepygmy. :D I was going to back-up TrustTymora's post, by pointing out that what she describes is exactly what happens at a mage fair. The contestants have a fireball contest by seeing who can make the biggest by simply 'firing into the air'. There is never any target, they are just shooting randomly in a general direction (up). However, Vegepygmy got the point across so I can go back to sleep now. :P
Undrhil 01-04-07, 12:42 AM	Vegepygmy: You have actually supported Caligula's DM ruling with your quoted text. You need an unobstructed line of effect between you and the point of origin you specify (see page 150 in the Player’s Handbook). Now, the key phrase here is unobstructed line of effect. By definition, unobstructed is the opposite of obstructed. Obstructed is defined: ob·struct - To block or fill (a passage) with obstacles or an obstacle. - To impede, retard, or interfere with; hinder: obstructed my progress. - To get in the way of so as to hide from sight. (emphasis mine.) If a caster specifies a point within a cloud of darkness, for all intents and purposes, that cloud of darkness is obstructing the line of sight to that point in space. Now, if the caster was intimately familiar with the area in question, I would say there is no issue here (as with the teleport spell) but if the caster is in an unfamiliar dungeon and is trying to cast a fireball into a room he's never seen before and that room is darkened, I'd say he can't fire the fireball into the room. Are there rules in place for "blind casting" though? Just taking a spell and casting it at whatever happens to be in the room? If not, this might be a houserule issue. If there are, then I'd say the caster should be blind-casting into the room, not trying to target a point in space obstructed by darkness. Undrhil
journeyman777 01-04-07, 01:05 AM	Now, the key phrase here is unobstructed line of effect. By definition, unobstructed is the opposite of obstructed. Obstructed is defined: Quote: ob·struct - To block or fill (a passage) with obstacles or an obstacle. - To impede, retard, or interfere with; hinder: obstructed my progress. - To get in the way of so as to hide from sight. (emphasis mine.)You should know better than to mix english definitions with D&D definitions. Since line of effect specifically ignores concealment, that definition is at least partially incorrect and entirely irrelevant. D&D only recognizes three conditions when targeting. 1. Target has total cover = no line of effect. 2. Target has total concealment = no line of sight. 3. Neither of thee above. All spells function in condition 3. Spells with a "Target" entry fail in condition 2. All spells fail in condition 1. (The above rules are general and may be overridden in the case of spells that specify otherwise in their descriptions. Spells may also fail do to an invalid target type or SR)
Undrhil 01-04-07, 01:09 AM	Ok. So, how do you define "total cover" or how do you determine whether or not a spell has "line of effect" as opposed to "line of sight". Well, I know how to tell if a spell has line of sight, at least. :)
Ramenth 01-04-07, 02:27 AM	As was said above, you're confusing LoE and LoS. Just because you can't see a specific object in a dark room doesnt mean you can't throw things into it. With a non AoE spell you're unlikely to hit anything, but with an AoE effect it doesnt matter if your aim is slightly off; Chances are the explosion will catch something anyway.
Vegepygmy 01-04-07, 04:07 AM	Ok. So, how do you define "total cover" or how do you determine whether or not a spell has "line of effect" as opposed to "line of sight".RTFM. Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight."Total cover" is defined on page 152. You'll have to look it up yourself.
mussor 01-04-07, 05:52 AM	I think Vegepygmy's quote from the 3.0 FAQ contains the most unambigous statement, underlined by me below: Hopefully, this will settle it for Caligula: (snip) If the spell has a Target entry, you must be able to see or touch the subject to use the spell. The chain lighting spell has a Target entry, so you must be able to see or touch your target to use the spell. If a spell has an Area or Effect entry (fireball has an Area entry; blade barrier has an Effect entry) instead of a Target, you don’t actually have to see your subjects. You can simply state where the effect or area will originate and any subject you happen to catch within the effect or area will be affected by the spell. If you can’t see the point where the area or effect will originate, you must specify exactly where that point lies. For example, you can say your fireball spell will detonate exactly 30 feet away from you at the height of your shoulder. You need an unobstructed line of effect between you and the point of origin you specify (see page 150 in the Player’s Handbook). If the line of effect is obstructed, unknown to the caster, it will of course be blocked in transit. But that is a different story. :)
Neutronium_Dragon 01-04-07, 08:18 AM	Undrhil: Line of Sight determines whether you've got a visual path to something, whereas Line of Effect determines whether you've got a physical path to something. Most spells require Line of Effect; as noted elsewhere, some divinations and teleportation effects are the main ones that don't. You need a physical path to a target, point of origin, or effect, whether or not you can see it. Line of Sight is required for target-based spells, but not for others. I can't think offhand of any spells which require Line of Sight but not Line of Effect, but generally if you don't have LoE you won't have LoS either. (Wall of Force providing one possible exception.)
Nom 01-04-07, 05:01 PM	That´s your interpretation. This is exactly what the DMG says: (DMG p.21) "If line of sight is completely blocked, a character can't cast spells or use ranged weapons against the target."Agreed. The DMG is giving summary rules for targeting creatures. If you instead look at the definitive rules for aiming spells ("Aiming a Spell", PH pg 175), you will see that it designates three different methods of aiming, depending on the spell's target / effect / area entry. Target spells explicitly require LoS or touch: "you must be able to see or touch the target". Effect spells explicitly do not require LoS: "either by seeing it or definining it" (emphasis mine). Area spells don't explicitly say that you don't require LoS (or touch) to the origin, but see the following sub-section: "Line of Effect" (pg 176). Line of effect is explicitly not blocked by "fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight". It is "canceled by a solid barrier". fireball is given as an example of a spell which requires clear "line of effect" to the origin. Given that this demonstrates the LoE rules, its pretty obvious that it doesn't require LoS. Note that although ray spells and area spells can be sent into areas you can't see, this has its own problems. As mentioned above, you need to be sure that something isn't going to block LoE. Further, you also need to locate your enemies, and the Listen checks to do so aren't easy. However, assuming that you do know where your enemies are and that nothing will block your attack, you can (unambiguously RAW) blindly send in a fireball without difficulty.