Armor for Wizards? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Armor for Wizards? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
danonano123
01-10-04, 10:01 PM Wizards don't want arcane spell faliure. All armor (non-magical) to my knowledge gives arcane spell faliure. How do wizards boost their AC? I was looking at crafting (p. 285 DMG Table 7-33 (3.5)) a cloak with continuous Magic Armor imbued onto it. This would provide +4 AC without spell faliure and wouldn't work in anti-magic areas and would not stack with other AC boosting armor or spells (the highest bonus only would apply). First of all, am I right in my calculation that a cloak of continuous Magic Armor would cost 2k gold base price? Is there a more effective wizard armor that is cheap (2k seems like its practically free :))?

Thx
Aramail
01-10-04, 10:16 PM bracers of armor were created with mages in mind, but i think they are a bit too expenxive for my tastes.

thanks to the BOeD(book of exalted deeds), there is a way to get armor without spell failure. i want to post it but it is a violation of the boards to do so. i can however email you it!
NorthSaber
01-10-04, 10:18 PM The magic item pricing rules at the back of the DMG are only guidelines, and it is mentioned somewhere in there that if an item gives constant bonuses it should be priced as a bonus item, not as a spell item (even when it's the spell that gives the bonuses). Thus, the cloak you mention should be considered a +4 AC item, not a Mage Armor item.

The cloak takes one item slot and gives an AC bonus; the Bracers of Armor take one item slot and give an AC bonus. Thus the price should be exactly the same unless one item has a significant down-side or benefit.

Items that increase your Dex will also increase your AC; an item that allows you to cast Shield X times a day can also help in X fights per day. At higher levels, Haste will add its own little help. Amulets of Natural Armor will also stack with everything mentioned before.
Edymnion
01-10-04, 11:07 PM Don't worry so much about ASF.
Long as you stay at about 10% or less, it will almost never actually crap out on you. Some enchanted Padded Armor is a good cheap way to boost your AC. Padded Armor +5 and a Mithril Buckler +5 comes up with +12 to AC for only 5% ASF. For 10% you can get that up to +15 via a mithril shirt +5 and a mithril buckler +5. Throw in some mithril dastana and it gets even better.

I'd stear clear of the Bracers of Armor though, they're more expensive than enchanting normal armor, and by the time you get higher up, they start costing insane amounts of gold. You're FAR better off with a shield and some padded armor.
danonano123
01-11-04, 01:04 AM Can mithril armor/shield reduce ASP to zero?
tarkin
01-11-04, 01:37 AM No mithril can not.

Want you want is a Prestige Class that lets you wear armor. They tend to be fighter types.

But the main point is that wizards do not have high Armor AC's. Often they forget about Armor entirely

Here is a well protected Wizard. Who cares what his Armor is?

Blinking, With 5 Mirror Images up. The Mirror Images travel with him, so they gain the same protection the wizard does from Blinking.

You have a 1/12 chance of being affected by the first physical attack.

In addition, you only take 1/2 damage from area attacks.

Spells that you cast that do not target yourself probably have a 20% failure chance, the only real problem.

There is also a Blurred Mirror Image or a Displaced Mirror Image.

If you really want high AC, try casting Mage Armor then Shield.
Hypersmurf
01-11-04, 02:10 AM A chain shirt made of blended quartz (Arms and Equipment Guide) has an arcane failure chance of 0, costs an extra 2000gp, and weighs twice as much as a normal chain shirt.

Otherwise, it's identical (except the Craft DC is 5 higher).

-Hyp.
Sir Pandemonium
01-11-04, 02:18 AM Unless it has been errated, Mithral in 3.5 can reduce ASF to 0%.

At least, it no longer has the statement that it can not.
Hypersmurf
01-11-04, 02:22 AM Originally posted by Sir Pandemonium
Unless it has been errated, Mithral in 3.5 can reduce ASF to 0%.

At least, it no longer has the statement that it can not.

It never had a statement that it couldn't. It's simple arithmetic.

Mithral decreases ASF by 10%. The lowest ASF for any metal armor is 20%.

You can't make ten from twenty equal zero.

-Hyp.
Vanigo
01-11-04, 02:26 AM Originally posted by Sir Pandemonium
Unless it has been errated, Mithral in 3.5 can reduce ASF to 0%.

At least, it no longer has the statement that it can not. Well, that's half right. Some shields can have ASF reduced to zero. For example, a mithril buckler has 5% - 10% = 0% ASF (since there's no such thing as negative ASF). However, there are no armors with normal ASF low enough for mithril to reduce it to zero. The lightest metal armor is a chain shirt. A mithril chain shirt still has 10% ASF. If you could somehow make mithril leather armor, you'd have zero ASF, but leather armor, being made out of leather, can't be made out of mithril instead.
Hypersmurf
01-11-04, 02:34 AM Originally posted by Vanigo
For example, a mithril buckler...
... for mithril to reduce it...
... A mithril chain shirt...
... mithril leather armor...
... made out of mithril instead.

Mithral. Unless you're playing in Middle Earth.

-Hyp.
Eldren
01-11-04, 02:46 AM Feh. It's "mithril" and you know it. :) Accept that changing a single letter in an attempt to avoid copyright infringements doesn't change the essential nature of something. *GRIN*

With that out of the way...

Yes, it requires some creative thinking, and use of several non-Core supplements, in order for a Wizard to have a reasonably high Armor Class.

However, also realize that Armor Class, more often than not, is a necessity for those who are in melee combat often, or stay in range of ranged weaponry such as bows. Most intelligent arcane spellcasters stay well out of this range, relying on the long-range direct-damage evocations like Fireball or Lightning Bolt to do their damage, all the while having up enchantments like Mage Armor and Shield in case someone is fortunate enough to close with them before being a) Blasted into pieces by the warrior types between the oncomer and the Wizard, and b), if they survive that, being blasted into pieces by the Wizard's defenses and whatever spells they can fire off in the intervening time.

This is one reason why Monks make great mage-killers though (notice the lack of caps on that; that means I'm not talking about the prestige class of the same name), because of their "Abundant Step" ability. Combine that with their increased movement rate, and life can get pretty tough for the Wizard. This is why the Wizard needs to look more at protections which remove them from combat or severely damage those who are going to attack them, rather than just jacking up their Armor Class. One of the greatest defensive spells ever is Flame Shield, and a great variant of that from "Magic of Faerun" is Mestil's Acid Sheath, which does the same thing, only with acid damage. However, put either spell in the hands of an Archmage with "Mastery of Elements" as a High Arcana ability, and you don't have to worry about having both prepared.

In other words, don't worry so much about jacking up your Armor Class as about insuring that you're far enough away from a fight to make someone closing with you unrealistic, but still close enough to do serious damage in the fight with your magic, through long-range spells or the use of summoned creatures. Wizards and Sorcerors aren't meant to be up in the thick of the battle; if you want a primary caster who's also martially oriented, play a Cleric. Otherwise, alter your thinking; Wizards and Sorcerors aren't meant to be close-ranged warriors. They aren't meant to be warriors at all. Keep 'em out of any range which would let someone close with them to the point that you have to start worrying about their Armor Class.
Malben
01-11-04, 03:25 AM The most effective wizard armor is the liberal use of defensive magic with the extend spell feat (or persistent spell, if you're using FR sourcebooks and are at higher levels).

Mage armor has a duration of 1 hour/level, after all, and it gives your wizard 4 points of AC. Bracers of armor +4 would cost 16,000 gp. By the time a wizard can afford that kind of gear, it's relatively easy just to cast the spell and enjoy something like 8 or 9 hours of duration free of charge (or 16-18 hours, if you splurge and extend the spell). That's a great deal -- much better than the bracers, since you can afford multiple wands of whatever spell you'd otherwise prepare in the same slot.

Slap on a shield spell, and you're looking at +8 to your AC right off the bat. Any level 1 wizard who can cast conjuration and abjuration spells can do this, and rely on a crossbow for offense with a decent degree of reliability.

As the character gains levels, these two spells remain very attractive because they take up an increasingly small portion of his or her available resources. A level 1 wizard with Int 15 can cast 3 cantrips and 2 level 1 spells per day. Admittedly this means that casting both shield and mage armor will soak up all available level 1 spells. But if we also assume Dex 12 for this character (an elven wizard, for example), that's still going to provide a +1 to attack rolls with a longbow. The rogue would hit more often, certainly . . . but only because he or she probably has Dex 15. And sure, the fighter has a +3 to hit (+1 BAB, and +2 from Str), but the fighter's probably only wearing scale mail and carrying a wooden shield. The wizard has better armor and more skills, but less offensive capability.

At level 5, that same Elven wizard now has Int 16, and can cast 4 cantrips, 4 level 1 spells, 3 level 2 spells, and 2 level 3 spells. By now the fighter has probably gotten hold of some magical armor or maybe a suit of full plate, but then again . . . the wizard can cast blur and doesn't have to worry about being sneak attacked, and still has 14 spell levels to play with. That's plenty of space to use in preparing spells that go "blam" or otherwise provide the means to make problems go away.

If you really want to make a wizard hard to hurt, though, I urge you -not- to rely primarily on magic items to do it. Have the wizard prepare a good selection of defensive spells of all levels, make sure the wizard has enough offensive spells to be able to contribute in a fight, and use magic items to keep utility spells handy -- scribe scroll for free at level 1 means that a wizard should never be caught without the utility spell needed for a given job. Comprehend Languages, Knock, Rope Trick, and even Teleport are all fine things to stick onto a scroll, since even though you might not need them every day, they are the sorts of spells that you kick yourself for not preparing when they become necessary.

If you pick up Craft Staff, magic items are also a good way to be sure that you always have that little extra bit of offensive power tucked away in case you need it. The changes to staves in 3.5 make them really worthwhile -- unlike wands, they provide save DC and caster level equal to those you'd get if you cast the spell yourself. The money you save by casting your own extended/persistent defensive spells will allow you to afford the assorted utility and emergency offense items that save the party when the chips are down.
Sir Pandemonium
01-11-04, 04:10 PM Originally posted by Hypersmurf
It never had a statement that it couldn't. It's simple arithmetic.

Mithral decreases ASF by 10%. The lowest ASF for any metal armor is 20%.

You can't make ten from twenty equal zero.

-Hyp.

Well, I will have to scrounge up my 3.0 DMG to make sure...

But I recall there being a statement in there saying that Mithral could not reduce the ASF below 5%.

I will stop back in later tonight to verify.
Hypersmurf
01-11-04, 04:14 PM But I recall there being a statement in there saying that Mithral could not reduce the ASF below 5%.

I will stop back in later tonight to verify.

... or perhaps retract :)

-Hyp.
Sir Pandemonium
01-11-04, 07:31 PM Well. I have one of the newest printings of the 3.0 DMG.

That statement does not exist in there either.

I have checked with my friends who have one of the original printings (bought them at it's premier at GenCon.) and it is in.

So, yeah...

Either retracted, or removed for some specific reason. (Perhaps to make the switch to 3.5 less painfull. I dunno.)
NorthSaber
01-11-04, 08:41 PM When I was playing IceWind Dale II recently (not identical to DnD 3.5 or 3.0 even, I know), I noticed that our wizard and sorcerer didn't use any spells to boost their AC. Instead, our primary defense spell was Mirror Image (although in IWD2 the enemy always hit a Mirror Image if one was still left), and at later levels my wizard always had Iron Skin active.

The classic way for a mage to stay unharmed is to fly (or levitate or spiderclimb), use Protection from Arrows, and just cast ranged attack spells such as Fireball and Magic Missile. This will grant virtual invulnerability against mundane enemies. Add in Improved Invisibility and even other mages will have trouble striking back.

At later levels it is indeed not the AC that protects the mage, but precautionary spells and spells that keep the mage inaccessible to the enemy.
zodiki
01-12-04, 12:00 AM The only AC a pure wizard or sorcerer should be worrying about is Touch AC and armor doesn't help you there.
Bifford
01-12-04, 01:21 AM Use the twilight armor special ability from the Book of Exalted Deeds, which reduces arcane failure chance by -10%. A twilight celestial armor has a failure rate of only 5% and an armor bonus of +8.
Hypersmurf
01-12-04, 01:52 AM Originally posted by Bifford
Use the twilight armor special ability from the Book of Exalted Deeds, which reduces arcane failure chance by -10%. A twilight celestial armor has a failure rate of only 5% and an armor bonus of +8.

It's good if you've got a high Dex...

If you haven't, though, putting Twilight on Blended Quartz Full Plate gives you a +8 armor bonus before you start considering enhancement bonuses. (Celestial Armor has a +3 enhancement bonus - add +3 to the full plate, and you're up to +11...) For the same 5% ASF. But, of course, your Max Dex Bonus in Full Plate sucks.

-Hyp.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
danonano123 01-10-04, 10:01 PM	Wizards don't want arcane spell faliure. All armor (non-magical) to my knowledge gives arcane spell faliure. How do wizards boost their AC? I was looking at crafting (p. 285 DMG Table 7-33 (3.5)) a cloak with continuous Magic Armor imbued onto it. This would provide +4 AC without spell faliure and wouldn't work in anti-magic areas and would not stack with other AC boosting armor or spells (the highest bonus only would apply). First of all, am I right in my calculation that a cloak of continuous Magic Armor would cost 2k gold base price? Is there a more effective wizard armor that is cheap (2k seems like its practically free :))? Thx
Aramail 01-10-04, 10:16 PM	bracers of armor were created with mages in mind, but i think they are a bit too expenxive for my tastes. thanks to the BOeD(book of exalted deeds), there is a way to get armor without spell failure. i want to post it but it is a violation of the boards to do so. i can however email you it!
NorthSaber 01-10-04, 10:18 PM	The magic item pricing rules at the back of the DMG are only guidelines, and it is mentioned somewhere in there that if an item gives constant bonuses it should be priced as a bonus item, not as a spell item (even when it's the spell that gives the bonuses). Thus, the cloak you mention should be considered a +4 AC item, not a Mage Armor item. The cloak takes one item slot and gives an AC bonus; the Bracers of Armor take one item slot and give an AC bonus. Thus the price should be exactly the same unless one item has a significant down-side or benefit. Items that increase your Dex will also increase your AC; an item that allows you to cast Shield X times a day can also help in X fights per day. At higher levels, Haste will add its own little help. Amulets of Natural Armor will also stack with everything mentioned before.
Edymnion 01-10-04, 11:07 PM	Don't worry so much about ASF. Long as you stay at about 10% or less, it will almost never actually crap out on you. Some enchanted Padded Armor is a good cheap way to boost your AC. Padded Armor +5 and a Mithril Buckler +5 comes up with +12 to AC for only 5% ASF. For 10% you can get that up to +15 via a mithril shirt +5 and a mithril buckler +5. Throw in some mithril dastana and it gets even better. I'd stear clear of the Bracers of Armor though, they're more expensive than enchanting normal armor, and by the time you get higher up, they start costing insane amounts of gold. You're FAR better off with a shield and some padded armor.
danonano123 01-11-04, 01:04 AM	Can mithril armor/shield reduce ASP to zero?
tarkin 01-11-04, 01:37 AM	No mithril can not. Want you want is a Prestige Class that lets you wear armor. They tend to be fighter types. But the main point is that wizards do not have high Armor AC's. Often they forget about Armor entirely Here is a well protected Wizard. Who cares what his Armor is? Blinking, With 5 Mirror Images up. The Mirror Images travel with him, so they gain the same protection the wizard does from Blinking. You have a 1/12 chance of being affected by the first physical attack. In addition, you only take 1/2 damage from area attacks. Spells that you cast that do not target yourself probably have a 20% failure chance, the only real problem. There is also a Blurred Mirror Image or a Displaced Mirror Image. If you really want high AC, try casting Mage Armor then Shield.
Hypersmurf 01-11-04, 02:10 AM	A chain shirt made of blended quartz (Arms and Equipment Guide) has an arcane failure chance of 0, costs an extra 2000gp, and weighs twice as much as a normal chain shirt. Otherwise, it's identical (except the Craft DC is 5 higher). -Hyp.
Sir Pandemonium 01-11-04, 02:18 AM	Unless it has been errated, Mithral in 3.5 can reduce ASF to 0%. At least, it no longer has the statement that it can not.
Hypersmurf 01-11-04, 02:22 AM	Originally posted by Sir Pandemonium Unless it has been errated, Mithral in 3.5 can reduce ASF to 0%. At least, it no longer has the statement that it can not. It never had a statement that it couldn't. It's simple arithmetic. Mithral decreases ASF by 10%. The lowest ASF for any metal armor is 20%. You can't make ten from twenty equal zero. -Hyp.
Vanigo 01-11-04, 02:26 AM	Originally posted by Sir Pandemonium Unless it has been errated, Mithral in 3.5 can reduce ASF to 0%. At least, it no longer has the statement that it can not. Well, that's half right. Some shields can have ASF reduced to zero. For example, a mithril buckler has 5% - 10% = 0% ASF (since there's no such thing as negative ASF). However, there are no armors with normal ASF low enough for mithril to reduce it to zero. The lightest metal armor is a chain shirt. A mithril chain shirt still has 10% ASF. If you could somehow make mithril leather armor, you'd have zero ASF, but leather armor, being made out of leather, can't be made out of mithril instead.
Hypersmurf 01-11-04, 02:34 AM	Originally posted by Vanigo For example, a mithril buckler... ... for mithril to reduce it... ... A mithril chain shirt... ... mithril leather armor... ... made out of mithril instead. Mithral. Unless you're playing in Middle Earth. -Hyp.
Eldren 01-11-04, 02:46 AM	Feh. It's "mithril" and you know it. :) Accept that changing a single letter in an attempt to avoid copyright infringements doesn't change the essential nature of something. GRIN With that out of the way... Yes, it requires some creative thinking, and use of several non-Core supplements, in order for a Wizard to have a reasonably high Armor Class. However, also realize that Armor Class, more often than not, is a necessity for those who are in melee combat often, or stay in range of ranged weaponry such as bows. Most intelligent arcane spellcasters stay well out of this range, relying on the long-range direct-damage evocations like Fireball or Lightning Bolt to do their damage, all the while having up enchantments like Mage Armor and Shield in case someone is fortunate enough to close with them before being a) Blasted into pieces by the warrior types between the oncomer and the Wizard, and b), if they survive that, being blasted into pieces by the Wizard's defenses and whatever spells they can fire off in the intervening time. This is one reason why Monks make great mage-killers though (notice the lack of caps on that; that means I'm not talking about the prestige class of the same name), because of their "Abundant Step" ability. Combine that with their increased movement rate, and life can get pretty tough for the Wizard. This is why the Wizard needs to look more at protections which remove them from combat or severely damage those who are going to attack them, rather than just jacking up their Armor Class. One of the greatest defensive spells ever is Flame Shield, and a great variant of that from "Magic of Faerun" is Mestil's Acid Sheath, which does the same thing, only with acid damage. However, put either spell in the hands of an Archmage with "Mastery of Elements" as a High Arcana ability, and you don't have to worry about having both prepared. In other words, don't worry so much about jacking up your Armor Class as about insuring that you're far enough away from a fight to make someone closing with you unrealistic, but still close enough to do serious damage in the fight with your magic, through long-range spells or the use of summoned creatures. Wizards and Sorcerors aren't meant to be up in the thick of the battle; if you want a primary caster who's also martially oriented, play a Cleric. Otherwise, alter your thinking; Wizards and Sorcerors aren't meant to be close-ranged warriors. They aren't meant to be warriors at all. Keep 'em out of any range which would let someone close with them to the point that you have to start worrying about their Armor Class.
Malben 01-11-04, 03:25 AM	The most effective wizard armor is the liberal use of defensive magic with the extend spell feat (or persistent spell, if you're using FR sourcebooks and are at higher levels). Mage armor has a duration of 1 hour/level, after all, and it gives your wizard 4 points of AC. Bracers of armor +4 would cost 16,000 gp. By the time a wizard can afford that kind of gear, it's relatively easy just to cast the spell and enjoy something like 8 or 9 hours of duration free of charge (or 16-18 hours, if you splurge and extend the spell). That's a great deal -- much better than the bracers, since you can afford multiple wands of whatever spell you'd otherwise prepare in the same slot. Slap on a shield spell, and you're looking at +8 to your AC right off the bat. Any level 1 wizard who can cast conjuration and abjuration spells can do this, and rely on a crossbow for offense with a decent degree of reliability. As the character gains levels, these two spells remain very attractive because they take up an increasingly small portion of his or her available resources. A level 1 wizard with Int 15 can cast 3 cantrips and 2 level 1 spells per day. Admittedly this means that casting both shield and mage armor will soak up all available level 1 spells. But if we also assume Dex 12 for this character (an elven wizard, for example), that's still going to provide a +1 to attack rolls with a longbow. The rogue would hit more often, certainly . . . but only because he or she probably has Dex 15. And sure, the fighter has a +3 to hit (+1 BAB, and +2 from Str), but the fighter's probably only wearing scale mail and carrying a wooden shield. The wizard has better armor and more skills, but less offensive capability. At level 5, that same Elven wizard now has Int 16, and can cast 4 cantrips, 4 level 1 spells, 3 level 2 spells, and 2 level 3 spells. By now the fighter has probably gotten hold of some magical armor or maybe a suit of full plate, but then again . . . the wizard can cast blur and doesn't have to worry about being sneak attacked, and still has 14 spell levels to play with. That's plenty of space to use in preparing spells that go "blam" or otherwise provide the means to make problems go away. If you really want to make a wizard hard to hurt, though, I urge you -not- to rely primarily on magic items to do it. Have the wizard prepare a good selection of defensive spells of all levels, make sure the wizard has enough offensive spells to be able to contribute in a fight, and use magic items to keep utility spells handy -- scribe scroll for free at level 1 means that a wizard should never be caught without the utility spell needed for a given job. Comprehend Languages, Knock, Rope Trick, and even Teleport are all fine things to stick onto a scroll, since even though you might not need them every day, they are the sorts of spells that you kick yourself for not preparing when they become necessary. If you pick up Craft Staff, magic items are also a good way to be sure that you always have that little extra bit of offensive power tucked away in case you need it. The changes to staves in 3.5 make them really worthwhile -- unlike wands, they provide save DC and caster level equal to those you'd get if you cast the spell yourself. The money you save by casting your own extended/persistent defensive spells will allow you to afford the assorted utility and emergency offense items that save the party when the chips are down.
Sir Pandemonium 01-11-04, 04:10 PM	Originally posted by Hypersmurf It never had a statement that it couldn't. It's simple arithmetic. Mithral decreases ASF by 10%. The lowest ASF for any metal armor is 20%. You can't make ten from twenty equal zero. -Hyp. Well, I will have to scrounge up my 3.0 DMG to make sure... But I recall there being a statement in there saying that Mithral could not reduce the ASF below 5%. I will stop back in later tonight to verify.
Hypersmurf 01-11-04, 04:14 PM	But I recall there being a statement in there saying that Mithral could not reduce the ASF below 5%. I will stop back in later tonight to verify. ... or perhaps retract :) -Hyp.
Sir Pandemonium 01-11-04, 07:31 PM	Well. I have one of the newest printings of the 3.0 DMG. That statement does not exist in there either. I have checked with my friends who have one of the original printings (bought them at it's premier at GenCon.) and it is in. So, yeah... Either retracted, or removed for some specific reason. (Perhaps to make the switch to 3.5 less painfull. I dunno.)
NorthSaber 01-11-04, 08:41 PM	When I was playing IceWind Dale II recently (not identical to DnD 3.5 or 3.0 even, I know), I noticed that our wizard and sorcerer didn't use any spells to boost their AC. Instead, our primary defense spell was Mirror Image (although in IWD2 the enemy always hit a Mirror Image if one was still left), and at later levels my wizard always had Iron Skin active. The classic way for a mage to stay unharmed is to fly (or levitate or spiderclimb), use Protection from Arrows, and just cast ranged attack spells such as Fireball and Magic Missile. This will grant virtual invulnerability against mundane enemies. Add in Improved Invisibility and even other mages will have trouble striking back. At later levels it is indeed not the AC that protects the mage, but precautionary spells and spells that keep the mage inaccessible to the enemy.
zodiki 01-12-04, 12:00 AM	The only AC a pure wizard or sorcerer should be worrying about is Touch AC and armor doesn't help you there.
Bifford 01-12-04, 01:21 AM	Use the twilight armor special ability from the Book of Exalted Deeds, which reduces arcane failure chance by -10%. A twilight celestial armor has a failure rate of only 5% and an armor bonus of +8.
Hypersmurf 01-12-04, 01:52 AM	Originally posted by Bifford Use the twilight armor special ability from the Book of Exalted Deeds, which reduces arcane failure chance by -10%. A twilight celestial armor has a failure rate of only 5% and an armor bonus of +8. It's good if you've got a high Dex... If you haven't, though, putting Twilight on Blended Quartz Full Plate gives you a +8 armor bonus before you start considering enhancement bonuses. (Celestial Armor has a +3 enhancement bonus - add +3 to the full plate, and you're up to +11...) For the same 5% ASF. But, of course, your Max Dex Bonus in Full Plate sucks. -Hyp.