Post/Author/DateTime	Post
woolybooger 10-09-04, 02:53 PM	using the animate dead or even the create un dead spells how can a caster get the armies of undead that necromancers are always attributed as having. max HD of undead=2xCL. a 20th level necromancer can have a huge army of 20 zombies, ooooh scary. a cleric wearing of undead control gets anothe whopping 13 zombies. how does one get legions of undead?
tarkin 10-09-04, 03:24 PM	This has been discussed before. Basically an army, even of just low level zombies, is incredibally powerfull. As such, any way to get one by yourself is either an artifact or an epic level ability. There are however two non-artifact/epic ways I know: 1) Be undead yourself with the ability to create spawn/slaves. 2) If you are a 20th level necromancer with a 19th level cohort with an 18th level... that gives you about 200 zombies, which can count as a small army.
kSquared 10-09-04, 03:32 PM	You can get a little more than 40 HD of zombies if you max everything out. See Seeker's post on the subject here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=4569720&postcount=2).
Bonzai 10-09-04, 04:06 PM	Remember that you don't have to necassarily "Control" them all, just point them in the right direction so to speak. A horde of undead that you don't control, but won't attack you, is almost as good as being under control. They pretty much just attack the nearest breathing individual anyways. Another trick comes from only controlling a couple of undead, like Vampires, wights, Specters, etc. You control the first one, and then they create spawn under their control. In this way you can have a large undead force that is ultimatly under your command. I find the best Necromancers use both divine and arcane magics. The cleric ability to rebuke/comand undead is a must unless you want to wait till you can cast 7th lvl spells as a wizard. However wizards can cast Comand Undead will keep uncontrolled undead from attacking you. Wizards also get all the negative energy spells that funtion as an offensive weapon and a heal for your minions. What I liked best was going Multiclass cleric(Nerull) /wizard(Necromancy Sp) until you can take Theurge, and then when you are able too, take the True Necromaster class. That way you can Rebuke/command equal to your cleric + TN lvl, and caster lvl equal to you Theurge + TN lvl, and continue to gain spells as a theurge. Now I am going by the Tome & Blood TN. It may have changed with Libris Mortis, which I haven't seen yet. That was the best class combination I could come up with for a Necromancer.
steventirey1985 10-09-04, 04:40 PM	Also, you dont have to control intelligent undead for them to help you. Think of them as just another NPC ally that follows your orders. Also, the epic feat undead mastery lets you control up to 10 times your level in HD. So instead of 42 HD at 21st level, you can control 210 HD of undead.
ssvegeta555 10-09-04, 08:13 PM	Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't you control 4HD of undead per caster level? I think I remember reading this in the 3.5 spell description. So 80 HD of undead at level 20 is awsome. Oh yeah dont forget the command undead spell, create a wand of it and gain control of more undead that way. granted you will have to re-cast the spell when the duration is about to expire. I also made an amulet you might be intrested in. Amulet of Undead Control This amulet favored by all necromancers. The amulet looks like a skull with small red ruby eyes. The amulet grants the wearer to control more undead. When worn you can control an extra 4 HD of undead. There are lesser and greater versions of this amulet. The lesser undead control amulet allows you to control 2 more HD of undead and the greater allows an extra 8 HD of undead. When ever the amulet is separated from the wearer the most recent undead are released from your control. Faint Necromancy; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item, animate dead ; Price 8000 gp, Lesser 4000 gp, Greater 16000 gp.
Seeker95 10-09-04, 09:03 PM	Oh yeah dont forget the command undead spell, create a wand of it and gain control of more undead that way. granted you will have to re-cast the spell when the duration is about to expire. The command undead spell is more of a "undead friends" spell. It makes their "attitude" toward you favorable, but is unlikely to give you much control. You can't control them any more than you can control your own friends. It's nice for preventing undead from attacking you. It doesn't go far in making them do anything else. In a party of four, try making even one of the other three players do what you say. :D
diaboli 10-09-04, 10:39 PM	As Bonzai alluded to, recruit a few powerful undead to "recruit" additional troops in your name. Also hire/amass/recurit other less powerful, yet like minded casters arcane and divine to your organization. Although less powerful, they can still control/raise addtional undead. It's all about the Pyramid scheme, your necro at the top and as the pyramid flares out it will grow exponentially. With other casters doing most of the controlling, they take the risk, and saves you HD to wrest control of the minions they eventually try to backstab you with. Also, as mentioned, magic items. Either buy or make to boost total HD. Another important point... if your a player, a little tougher to pull off, but as the DM, much simpler.
Wildonion 10-09-04, 10:48 PM	Here take this *Hands woolybooger a glowing orb* This should do it: Orb of the Dead- This artifact generates undead from the corpses of fallen victims, no limits. :D
Bloodtide_the_Red 10-10-04, 01:19 AM	Don't forget to take the Leadership feat and get some undead cohorts. Should work nicely for a general or other army commanders. Or get yourself another necromancer or cleric to create and control more undead. And there is Planar Binding. There are plenty of (Extraplanar) undead you can summon. Though something like a bone devil fits in too. And you can create and unlimited number of Simulacrums. You can create a simulacrum of any creature..even undead. Another trick...get undead that create undead spawn. Take a Wight for example. You can control one and have it create plenty of wight-spawn. Now, you don't control all thoes spawn...but you control the one who controls all of them. Another trick...uncontroled undead. You can simply grab undead and toss them in the direction you want them to cause trouble. They make good shock troops this way. Halt undead, Otiluke's sphere and lots of other spells can grab 'unwilling uncontroled ' undead. Drop a mohrg in a group of fighters and he will likely kill some before it escapes. BT
Seeker95 10-10-04, 08:05 AM	Orb of the Dead- This artifact generates undead from the corpses of fallen victims, no limits. :DWith no user control over them either. Be prepared when they see nothing to attack but their creator! :devil:
ninja1 10-11-04, 12:01 AM	I also like Simulacrum for use along the same lines as the "control spawning undead to influence their minions". Make a simulacrum of yourself. :D Also, if you have access to MoF, there's a nifty spell in there called General of Undeath. Where the epic feat Undead Mastery lets you control up to 10 times your level, the spell General of Undeath actually ADDS 10 times your level!! Combine that with Craft Wondrous Item and watch out!! Undead Army here I come!
smrtgmp 10-11-04, 05:13 AM	There is some stuff in Libris Mortis that allows you to increase the number of undead you can control as well. Really, no necromancer should be without it.
Judicator Shekar 10-11-04, 03:48 PM	The Deathbound domain in LM lets u control 3 times as many undead as your hit die. Also, the fact that an epic necromancer would have epic leadership, with a bunch of lower-level necromancers working for him. That means a lot of undead.
CrimsonRyoko 10-11-04, 07:08 PM	What amount of undead you control is effected by the Deathbound Domain? As far as i can tell Animate Dead is seperate from Commanded, Controlled and Command(Rebuked) undead. . . . I still a lil confused, Seeker help me on this too? Also. . . With animate dead, its based off Caster Level right, but what if you have a huge caster level in two classes? Then does it revert to Character level? Example: Cleric3/Wizard3/True Necromancer14((((The new one HAS 14 levels)))) Your caster level for Each class is 20(with all levels of TN you get a +4 boost, and natural +12 ) So does that mean that character could animate 160HD
Bonzai 10-11-04, 07:17 PM	Lol, the question isn't so much how to make an army of undead, but what to do with it once you have one? Take over a large town of small city? Wipe out a rival? I like creating a one man mercanary army. An army of undead for hire, for an armies pay, but it only gets split one way. Best of all, you can always find plenty of new "recruits" during and after the battle. :P
Seeker95 10-11-04, 07:32 PM	1. What amount of undead you control is effected by the Deathbound Domain? 2. animate dead [...] based off Caster Level, what if you have a huge caster level in two classes? Then does it revert to Character level?1. It allows three times your caster level instead of just two times your caster level. Since a wizard has no limit on how many undead he can command, it doesn't affect that aspect. 2. Use the larger of whatever class lets you cast the spell. In your example, since all three classes have an effective caster level of 20, you have a caster level of 20.
The Abominable Darkling 12-12-04, 05:01 PM	I think you're looking at this the wrong way. No one directly controls every member of his army (undead or otherwise). If you want to control an army of thousands of zombies, you need to construct a command heirarchy, just like a real army.
Meteor4118 12-12-04, 05:31 PM	sry i doubled
Meteor4118 12-12-04, 05:35 PM	The stiched fles familiar from LM gives you 4 more HD and Undead Leadership help and I guess Lich Loved and Undead Empathy wouldn't hurtbut thats about it. Since the Deathbound Domain was already stated.
PhaedrusXY 12-12-04, 08:58 PM	1. It allows three times your caster level instead of just two times your caster level. Since a wizard has no limit on how many undead he can command, it doesn't affect that aspect.Here is what it says (p. 60 Libris Mortis): Your limit for controlling undead animated with spells increases to three times your caster level instead of the normal two times your caster level.The Deathbound domain doesn't say "Command", it says "Control". It also specifically says "with spells". The only spell that has a limit on the amount of undead you can control with it, for either a Wizard or Cleric, is Animate Dead. So it applies to the undead you control via Animate Dead. The part about it increasing the amount you can control from 2HD/lvl to 3HD/lvl is a bit misleading. You can actually control 4HD/lvl with Animate Dead. The 2HD/lvl is how many you can animate with one casting. When Customer Service was asked about this, they said that the Deathbound Domain does indeed add 1 HD/lvl to how many undead you can control via Animate Dead, increasing it from 4HD/lvl to 5HD/lvl. There is a Rod in Libris Mortis that doubles the HD of undead you can control via spells. Using it and the Deathbound Domain, I have a True Necromancer NPC that I made for my game that can control 10HD of undead per caster level, and both her caster level for Cleric and Necromancer is 18 when casting Necromancy spells (at character level 16). Since the arcane Animate Undead and divine Animate Undead use totally separate caster levels, it could be argued quite convincingly that the Animated Undead controlled by a multiclassed cleric/wizard is kept up with separately. I'm not sure if this is reasonable, but others have put up pretty good arguments for it. So... it is feasible that my NPC could control from 180 to 360 hit dice of Animated Undead at character level 16, depending on how you rule the interaction of the Deathbound Domain and her Arcane and Divine caster levels (temporarily more if she activates her Karma bead). The trick to having an effective "horde" of undead is using a smaller number of very powerful undead, not a bunch of little ones. I am using a bunch of animated Fomorian skeletons, a 12 headed hydra skeleton, and a zombie dragon with her. She also has 20 advanced 6 HD ghouls created via another spell in Libris Mortis (they use the same HD pool as Animate Dead, though). All of the skeletons and zombies are Awakened, so they are intelligent and have feats and skill points. All of the undead have about twice as many hit points than normal, from being made in a Desecrated area with a shrine and because of some of the NPCs feats from Libris Mortis. They also have a few other special abilties and bonuses. So yeah... depending on what books you have available, you can make a powerful undead army with a necromancer, especially a wizard/cleric multiclass with True Necromancer or Mystic Theurge levels.
PhaedrusXY 12-12-04, 09:35 PM	The command undead spell is more of a "undead friends" spell. It makes their "attitude" toward you favorable, but is unlikely to give you much control. You can't control them any more than you can control your own friends. It's nice for preventing undead from attacking you. It doesn't go far in making them do anything else. In a party of four, try making even one of the other three players do what you say. :DSeeker... I realize that you are in general a restrictive type of DM who tries to limit everything as much as possible to "keep your players in line". While I fall on the other end of the spectrum, interpreting things liberally, but also using the same tricks against them. But have you read this spell lately? It is worded almost identically to Charm Person, and it specifically describes how to command the undead. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An intelligent commanded undead never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing.If you're trying to convince it to do something that it would normally do, you automatically succeed. Alot of the commands an evil necromancer would give an undead probably fall under this category... Even if it is something it wouldn't normally do, you can get it to do it anyway with an opposed Charisma check, which you can bias in your favor using magical means. So while you don't have absolute control of them like you do with Animate Undead, you do have quite alot of influence with them (basically the same as Charm Person). Unless the DM is purposefully roleplaying the undead as being extremely willful and unwilling to cooperate (which it shouldn't be, because it's "charmed"), you should be able to get the undead to go along with most plans, if they are sick and evil things an undead would want to do anyway. And if they're not, then why are you working with undead? :D
GoodTeletubby 12-12-04, 11:06 PM	Also, you dont have to control intelligent undead for them to help you. Think of them as just another NPC ally that follows your orders. Also, the epic feat undead mastery lets you control up to 10 times your level in HD. So instead of 42 HD at 21st level, you can control 210 HD of undead. I'm not sure, but I believe that undead mastery applys to the cleric's ability to command undead using rebuke/command undead since it is, y'know, a [Divine] feat
Melpomene 12-13-04, 12:01 AM	One of the most effective ways to raise an army of undead is to take yours from other wizards. For example "Sure, I'll sell you this magical item, but I don't want money. I want some of your undead. You can borrow my spellbook if you don't know the spell." Other ways include browbeating, threats, blackmail, underlings (through leadership), or, in a real pinch, just buying them for coin.
Bonzai 12-13-04, 12:58 AM	Lol, I was reading the Complete divine book the other day, re-read the epic feat that lets you command 10 times your lvl in hd. Then I remembered that rod that doubles it. So a lvl 40 True Necromancer/cleric/wizard or Sorc could comand 800 hd in undead, not including animate (from arcane and divine lvls), control undead spells, stiched familiar, and armor of undead control, and spawn. Those numbers are nothing to sneeze at, and show how an Epic Necromancer can raise formidable armies.
Ancient History 12-13-04, 01:03 AM	The summon undead spells are good for making undead on a budget, summon something and have it spawn; when it leaves at the end of the spell duration the spawn remains. Death Knights are some of the best undead to control as your lieutenants, simply because they in turn can control undead.
Solitare 01-13-05, 02:49 AM	The summon undead spells are good for making undead on a budget, summon something and have it spawn; when it leaves at the end of the spell duration the spawn remains. Death Knights are some of the best undead to control as your lieutenants, simply because they in turn can control undead. What do you mean by, have it spawn?
Vharuck 01-13-05, 03:22 AM	IIRC, the True Necromancer in the LM has a level where you only gain arcane, and another where you only gain divine casting level. So a Necro 3/Cleric 3/True Necromancer 14 would get you spellcasting levels of 19 and 19.
PhaedrusXY 01-13-05, 03:50 AM	IIRC, the True Necromancer in the LM has a level where you only gain arcane, and another where you only gain divine casting level. So a Necro 3/Cleric 3/True Necromancer 14 would get you spellcasting levels of 19 and 19.There are four levels of True Necromancer where you only get either arcane or divine, but not both. The other 10 levels give you both. So at level 20, a clr3/necro3/TN14 would cast spells at 15th level in both classes. If you took Practiced Spellcaster for both, your caster level would be 19 in each, but you'd still only have the spells per day of a 15th level caster.What do you mean by, have it spawn?He means summon something with the Create Spawn ability.
runestar 01-13-05, 04:14 AM	There is an epic feat which increases the no of hitdice of undead you can control by 10. There is also a spell that simulates this effect, and lasts for quite a no.of days. Both would give you quite an army.
Kratch 01-13-05, 09:01 AM	Well, level 20 true necro with the evil domain casts animate dead at CL 20, for 80 HD of undead. Add the spell stitched familiar for 4 more HD. There's a 13000GP rod that doubles the amount of HD your able to control to 168 HD of undead ... per class. thats each for wizard and cleric for a total of 336HD of undead. Add in the True necro's rebuke for 21 HD plus spell stitched familiars 4, X2 for the rod (i think) equals 50 more HD. Add in undead leadership where all your followers are undead as well for likely over 150 more undead plus whatever your cohort can make equals a fair sized army, all things considered. Not bad for 2 feats (including TN prereq) and a 13000GP item (easily bought or made at 20th level), plus the fortune in black onyx. once you go epic it gets even better. I don't have libris mortus handy, so there may be feats to add even more to this number and/or my math could be off (only gave +4 for the necromantic prowess, may be +5, not sure)
ninja1 01-13-05, 09:24 AM	There is also a spell that simulates this effect, and lasts for quite a no.of days. Both would give you quite an army. I wouldn't waste an epic feat, not when that spell you mention (General of Undeath, MoF) can be cast several times and/or Crafted as a Wondrous Item.
Mirage_1 01-13-05, 09:31 AM	I would highly suggest: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x This is how to make an army of undead...funny enough it falls in line with what I have suggested to others in the past with allowing a .....liberal...usage of the Leadership feat :-)
ninja1 01-13-05, 12:27 PM	Kratch, That Rod from LM, doesn't it require you to be holding it? I don't think I'd want to dedicate a Locked Gauntlet to guarantee I don't let go of it... ever.. :) That fortune in black onyx could be avoided if you are a Pale Master or have one as your Cohort. Getting animate dead once per day for free is nice. If you are a cleric and you use the Pale Master Cohort route, you could always use the General of Undeath spell to rebuke his Animated Dead to free up his/her controll limit to animate more. Another way to get animate dead sans the onyx would be to spellstich something with a high enough ability score to get 4th level spells via spellstich (yourself post-Lich?) and stich in Animate Dead.
green_yawgmoth 01-13-05, 01:19 PM	I have a character who is a 10th level pale master with epic leadership. This gave him a true necromancer cohort and a very powerful undead vassal. The TN has epic undead leadership, her cohort is a vampire lord with levels in master vampire and cleric. His vampire slaves are all spellcasters with either AD or that 9th level AD-esque spell in Libris Mortis. He, and all of his casters he controls, have an item from LM that doubles the number of undead you control. All in all, He controls, either directly or indirectly, 1800HD of undead that I've figured, not including any necromancers in his own leadership follower ranks. Is that a large enough army for you? :bored: Edit: 2. Use the larger of whatever class lets you cast the spell. In your example, since all three classes have an effective caster level of 20, you have a caster level of 20.This is wrong. You have a caster level for EACH class of 20. Meaning you can control 80HD from wizard and 80HD from cleric, for a total 160HD. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
ninja1 01-13-05, 01:36 PM	Yes green_yawgmoth, that is enough for me. :D But some flaw in my character keeps begging for more! Wasn't there something against cohorts having leadership? Might I recommend making simulacrums of yourself and having them fill thier control quota's?
green_yawgmoth 01-13-05, 01:49 PM	Wasn't there something against cohorts having leadership? Some people say there is, but I find nothing in the books that says so. I think it's just one of those house rules that everyone who uses it just assumes everyone else uses. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
IceFractal 01-13-05, 02:15 PM	An army of shades (or other spawn-creating undead that have control over their spawn) is the way to go. Just create/command a couple and set them loose on a town of peasants. Instant army! All the peasants will be "shaded" and under the control of the primary shades - and thus you. You can set up a pyramid scheme of undead with no maximum limit. The only danger is that if someone re-kills your original shades all the rest won't be under your control anymore.
Maerdash 01-13-05, 02:59 PM	fractal has the right idea, you create a few shadows (however many you can control) and set them loose on the peasant population, once you gain access to 7th level wizard spells (via scrolls or just pure casting ability) you use the animate dead spell get about 80 medium human skeletons then cast the awaken undead spell from savage species (i think its in libris mortis to) the undead start with an attitude of friendly toward you and they are treated as warriors for the purpose of weapon and armor prof. and it costs you a HUGE 200 xp lol. reapeat as needed until you rule the world (or at least have a large enough army that no one is invading your new kingdom :D
Bonzai 01-13-05, 04:34 PM	Heh, I just asked a question in the feats section. The Undead graft feat lets you augment people with undead parts and give them special abilities. The question I asked was whether you could graft parts onto other undead as well? I don't see it as being a problem. If it works, thats a route my Pale Master will go. See... He is not the type who leaves things to chance. Instead of having a huge army of controlled undead, he would rather not worry about having to control them all. He may have one or two big nasties that he will keep under his thumb, but he would much rather focus on his loyal animated servants. So he will be augmenting them with awaken undead, spell stitching, and undead grafts if they are allowed. Yes it will be expensive, but he would rather have an elite task force of completly loyal servants than worry about compulsions wearing off. Besides LM gives us a spell that rez's undead too.
bomaz 01-13-05, 07:04 PM	horned harbringer from some forgotten realms book. dont know which will give you a nice boost to the current stats said earlier