Arrrrgg no more spells........ [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arrrrgg no more spells........ [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tabularasa
12-28-06, 05:47 PM Hi,

I run a campain as a DM. One of the recuring problem I encounter is my party runing out of spells in the middle of a Dungeon.

This usually mean they need to rest somewhere which is not always practical from a story telling perspective because I try to run my NPCs smartly. I make them retreat, regroup and attack en mass PC. So, if someone has killed the first guards, I am pretty sure someone will notice and raise the alert, triggering a dungeon-wide search which means that my players won't probably have the 8 hours necessary to recuperate. This problems becomes especially accute when you mix a dungeon-crawl with an event driven story. And by the way, you know, not every single criter should be carrying scrolls.

What I do instead is to allow my players, if they find a quiet spot, to speed-read their spells book. I make them roll a spellcraft check against a DC15+spell level for each spell/slot they want to regain. The end result is that they regain some spells but not as much as after an 8h rest. They are nevertheless usually in a sufficient shape to continue.

I was wondering, what do you do in those circumstances?
CantripN
12-28-06, 06:00 PM We conserve our spells, that's what. Retreat and come back later or barricade somewhere safe and/or hidden if you can't.
The Spellcraft DC you've set is FAR too low, if I were to even allow it. I might allow for reading a spellbook for an hour to get back the spells, but make them take Ability Damage in their casting stat for it. Say 1 per Spell Level, only removable by resting. And only for Arcane. Divine be damned - they can just ask for Divine Interdiction.
King Bulba
12-28-06, 06:35 PM Yeah your PC's should have the spell rope trick... They should be able to find ways to sleep for 8 hours. Use an illusion to hide your presence or something. Divine doesn't need rest to recover spells at all so they shouldnt have as much problems. There should be ways to sleep, but that doesnt mean they should be obvious.

Personally as a house rules, my games have races who rest less like elves need less rest to recover spells. If you recover your stanima in 4 hours as an Elf why would it take 8 hours to get spells? My group thinks it makes no sense. Makes the ring of sustenance worth wearing, remember you need to have it on 24 hours if you plan on using it on the dungeon crawl.

I like how you use smart NPCs but they need to follow the same rules then. Their spellcasters and really everyone needs to sleep too so if you are doing a dungeon crawl there are 8 hours of each day they are sleeping and can't give assistance. Also NPC casters probally have some utility spells they cast on people during the day so shouldnt have 100% of their spells left. clerics would heal peoples wounds they get and such.

I am with CantripN, I dont like DC15+spell level spellcraft check since it takes arcane 1 HOUR to prepare spells after getting sleep. How is this for an idea... If you rest 4 hours you get 50% of your spells back after memorizing, 2 hours would get 25%. Then have the same % for memorizing, 50% of spells takes 30 minutes to memorize. You can do something to speed up memorizing but spellcraft doesnt really make sense to me imo. Spellcraft is about identifying spells, concentration fits better imo. Have the ability to cut that down by half with a concentration check, DC 15+1 per spell level could work here. So if you are quick memorizing half your spells it takes 15 minutes to memorize my spells with a successful concentration check.
Morgen
12-28-06, 06:41 PM It depends on what kind of place they might be raiding. You might just be making the dungeon too big for the level of your PCs, you might be running too many encounters in the dungeon, or perhaps the PCs aren’t doing they're part to use their spells efficiently/wisely and haven't been purchasing wands/scrolls/etc.

I believe that it’s usually about 3-4 encounters in a day should drain a lower level party of most of their resources. Real encounters of course, not like a lone 5hp goblin. (Which if your wizard kills with a magic missile and the other players don’t mention something about wasting spells you know what your problem really is.)

There are ways in a dungeon to have places that the PCs could get some rest in, or that certain types of monsters just might not care if a patrol has gone missing. Probably got drunk and fell asleep somewhere, who really knows? Secret doors that the monsters in the dungeon haven’t found might lead towards a place that once some monstrous spiders are cleared out would be a great spot for the PCs to rest! Why? Cause everyone in the dungeon knows there are spiders in that room and want nothing to do with it.

There are a lot of lower level spells that should help out your party out too. Look at the 2nd level Arcane spell Rope Trick too.

Be careful with ways of giving PCs more spells that aren’t like pearls of power or scrolls. Just a generic DC wouldn’t teach them to manage spells efficiently at all. :-(

The only way it could be worse was if you were using spellpoints.
Morgen
12-28-06, 06:47 PM If you recover your stanima in 4 hours as an Elf why would it take 8 hours to get spells? My group thinks it makes no sense.

Because if you don't do that an Elf Wizard can cast about twice as many spells in a day as a regular wizard, encouraging them to go all out more often or come up with really really insane ways into dungeons just because they've got 5 hours to kill. Plus at higher levels 4 hours off of a Greater Magic Weapon or a Great Mage Armor arn't that big of a deal. There still are a lot of hours/level spells that your elf mage could cast and rest and memorize other spells in that time. Plus it'd still take him an hour to memorize his spells after that. Normally that cycle would take him 9 hours but for your games it only takes him 5.

So essentually the reason why its like that is to balance the arcane magic a bit. Divine only get to memorize once per day after all.

Divine Casters = 1 daily
Arcane Casters = 3 daily are possible
Elf Arcane Caster = 6 daily are possible

Plus there is that whole thing about clearing your mind and collecting the energy needed to cast spells and so forth. Much harder to do then to take a nap and wake up refreshed. And no, I'm not saying D&D should have nap rules. (1/2 hp per hour napped)
mike_beavers
12-28-06, 06:59 PM dont your players use scrolls to increase their arsenal of spells? My players tend to buy the general use spells like the buff spells, healing etc to assist them in overcoming the bad guys
RavingDork
12-28-06, 07:02 PM I was wondering, what do you do in those circumstances?

I bought COMPLETE MAGE and introduced it to my players. The problem I was having (which mirrors yours) hasn't re-occured since thanks to the new RESERVE FEATS in that book.

You should look into it.
journeyman777
12-28-06, 07:03 PM Reserve feats, any ToB class, binder, warlock, dragonfire adept. There is a number of ways to have a party that goes all day long no problems. If you are playing the monsters smart enough to retreat and regroup, why shouldn't your players be smart enough to do the same? Time sensitive missions are why you buy wands.
Newpaintbrush
12-28-06, 07:13 PM If they're low-level, they shouldn't be in a really dangerous dungeon in the first place.

Therefore, if they ARE low-level, and they are in a really dangerous dungeon, they decided to charge recklessly into a situation they were unprepared for. TPK. (Total Party Kill)

Even low level characters should be making and using scrolls, though.

--

If they're higher level, they should have wands, scrolls, pearls of power, magical items to aid themselves, potions . . . it should not be a problem. If they do NOT, they are unprepared (once again), and should die.

Allowing spellcasters to gain spells back speedily makes them horribly overpowered. Or, I should say, MORE horribly overpowered.

Really, if you keep nerfing the rules to make it so your reckless players don't die, you WILL see first level characters charging headlong at trolls with only toothpicks for weapons. "The DM won't kill us!"
Seeker95
12-28-06, 07:30 PM As others have said, you have a few options:
1. Conserve spells.
2. Rope trick.
3. Leomund's Shelter-like spells.
4. Use teleport for escape and return.
5. Use scrolls.
King Bulba
12-28-06, 07:40 PM So essentually the reason why its like that is to balance the arcane magic a bit. Divine only get to memorize once per day after all.

Divine Casters = 1 daily
Arcane Casters = 3 daily are possible
Elf Arcane Caster = 6 daily are possible

Yeah thing is you are still part of a party. Just because an elf can rest 4 hours to recover his spells doesn't mean that he will be able to do that many times a day when grouped. The party will not want to rest over and over and over again.

Also when is the last time someone played an elf caster? I think they need the boost since I have never seen an elf wizard played.

I dont see this as a problem. It gives flexability when you need new spells the party will guard you to recover your spells without waiting 9 hours. You still live to the normal 8 hours a day you adventure so like I said where is the problem other than the hypothetical I want to rest for 5 hours after I nova. In character, players wouldnt allow it since its so disruptive.

Divine is already stronger than arcane, they deserve once a day spells, plus flavor makes sense why its once a day. Arcane on the other hand makes no sense that you can only do once a day when you are just memorizing spells when you are mentrally fresh. Balance wise I really dont see a problem.
journeyman777
12-28-06, 07:46 PM Also when is the last time someone played an elf caster? I think they need the boost since I have never seen an elf wizard played.:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
King Bulba
12-28-06, 08:04 PM Plus at higher levels 4 hours off of a Greater Magic Weapon or a Great Mage Armor arn't that big of a deal. There still are a lot of hours/level spells that your elf mage could cast and rest and memorize other spells in that time.
Yeah that's when the DM says you are too refreshed to meditate again. It will take a couple of hours untill your mind is ready to meditate again, to prevent abuses. Wow problem solved.
DarkRhystar
12-28-06, 08:39 PM As others have said, you have a few options:
1. Conserve spells.
2. Rope trick.
3. Leomund's Shelter-like spells.
4. Use teleport for escape and return.
5. Use scrolls.

A good list though number 1 is the one I recommend the most.

Learning moderation as a spellcaster is one of the hardest parts, but I've found it's definitely the key to survival especially early on. :)
Fake Healer
12-28-06, 10:06 PM #1- casters should always have a wand with an offensive spell (or 3).

#2- with #1 they should have more spell slots freed up to memorize a good variety of spells.

#3- Arcane casters should leave a few spell slots open so that when they find a problem that needs a certain solution they can study their spellbook to memorize the spell needed for that solution. Or they can use the empty slots when they run out of spells to "recharge" their list with a few more useful shots.

ALWAYS LEAVE A FEW SPELL SLOTS OPEN!

FH
Thane26425
12-28-06, 10:34 PM Have the caster take a level of fighter or two. Yes, that cuts down on spell casting power, but it makes them tougher and gives them an increased BAB. Have them focus on ranged weapons and they can act as a secondary shooter. If you don't do that, then give the caster enchanted ranged weapons and stat boosters so that they can add to the fight more effectively than just with spells. Also, you could take those levels of fighter at lower level and use the retraining rules from the PHB2 and retrain those levels as mage later on.

Reserve feats at also good to give a caster sustained firepower.
King Bulba
12-29-06, 01:10 AM Have the caster take a level of fighter or two. Yes, that cuts down on spell casting power, but it makes them tougher and gives them an increased BAB. Have them focus on ranged weapons and they can act as a secondary shooter. If you don't do that, then give the caster enchanted ranged weapons and stat boosters so that they can add to the fight more effectively than just with spells. Also, you could take those levels of fighter at lower level and use the retraining rules from the PHB2 and retrain those levels as mage later on.

Reserve feats at also good to give a caster sustained firepower.
Sorry you fail. Only if you plan on being a gish should you do this, you would be better off saving the CL hits for taking better PrCs in the future.

I give it a F
Thane26425
12-29-06, 09:00 AM Sorry you fail. Only if you plan on being a gish should you do this, you would be better off saving the CL hits for taking better PrCs in the future.

I give it a F

Sorry, but I have used this kind of build successfully many times over the years.
Dheran
12-29-06, 12:00 PM As CantripN and many others have said, your players should learn to conserve their spells. Every Wizard is proficient with crossbows, and if they can carry the weight a heavy crossbow is a good choice -- both for range and damage -- for that first shot in every encounter. With a Wizard's low BAB it's not as good a choice as most spells, but it's consistently superior to any exhausted spell slot. :)

In addition to scrolls and wands, consider magic items like Pearls of Power to boost casting allotments.

If they've been using a lot of non-combat spells they should cut back. Using Knock and Detect Secret Doors is a poor substitute for having a skilled Rogue in the party.

Your "speed-reading spellbooks" workaround is a bad idea. By breaking the rules this way you're encouraging the players to keep bad habits. If these same people play with a different DM they're gonna be monster chow, and that will be your fault, Tabularasa. If you don't take off the training wheels they'll never learn how to ride.
bave
12-29-06, 01:47 PM Sorry, but I have used this kind of build successfully many times over the years.

I second the, "you fail".

The sacrafice in caster level is incredibly painful compared to two levels of fighter. Why? I will tell you. Wow, you have a few more hitpoints, a better bab by *1* and 1 or 2 more feats (if a fighter). You still can't wear armor unless you are changing mid dungeon or suffering through the ASF. You are an incredible liability to the melee with poor hitpoints, poor damage output.

This will absorb more resources (aka: healing) to keep you alive than if you sat back and watched or lobbed magic missle scrolls at 1xp each.

You fail.
RavingDork
12-29-06, 01:52 PM I second the, "you fail".

The sacrafice in caster level is incredibly painful compared to two levels of fighter. Why? I will tell you. Wow, you have a few more hitpoints, a better bab by *1* and 1 or 2 more feats (if a fighter). You still can't wear armor unless you are changing mid dungeon or suffering through the ASF. You are an incredible liability to the melee with poor hitpoints, poor damage output.

This will absorb more resources (aka: healing) to keep you alive than if you sat back and watched or lobbed magic missle scrolls at 1xp each.

You fail.

Actually, I think he wins quite big. He has just paved his way for the Abjurant Champion prestige class (Complete Mage). In the end he will be marginally more kick-ass then a normal wizard, especially if he takes the Practiced Spellcaster feat (Complete Arcane).
Szatany
12-29-06, 01:58 PM I was wondering, what do you do in those circumstances?
If it's the first time, I give them some slack. If it's for the second time, I laugh at people who don't invest in wands and scrolls as they die. (if they don't have enough money, I make them find what they need to keep going, barely)

I didn't take my players much time to come up with a good system. About 20% of loot goes to common pool. Most diplomatic character than uses this gold to buy wands of cure [insert] wounds and some attack wands. Then whoever can use those wands and has little else to do, uses them to great benefit of others. This allowed them to survive events like City of the Spider Queen.
Kimokeo
12-29-06, 03:29 PM Spells per day means spells per day. It doesn't matter whether they can rest in less than to not. If your DM houserules differently, then the spellcasters should be happy they even get that option.

So, spellcasters must conserve their spells if they expect to need them later. Scrolls, wands, etc. are great if you can get them. If not, the caster must be even more careful. Nice DM allowing multiple rests and regaining spells makes it possible for casters to use most of their spells without learning to conserve. That'll hurt them when they enter other games that go by the rules (especially conventions).

I suggest crossbows/bows and lots of ammo- -learn to use them. Keep the spell for later.
Xenephon
12-29-06, 08:15 PM This could go two ways:

It could be that the players are not planning ahead and thinking about the need to conserve resources. I have played as the sole spellcaster in a party from 2nd through to 10th level (as a sorcerer even) and in the earlier levels I probably shot my crossbow far more times than I cast a spell. Make it clear in this situation that basically one load of spells is all you get in a session and that the players need to think about how sensibly they are using their resources.

The other alternative is that you are being unreasonable as a DM and throwing far more opposition at them at a time than their abilities and resources can sustain :D

Xenephon
True Cavalier
12-29-06, 08:26 PM If all else fails, try the Recharge Magic variant from Unearthed Arcana.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/rechargeMagic.htm
Morwen
12-30-06, 12:51 AM When I started playing in my current group, the spellcasters among the PCs tended to spend all their highest-level spells in the first encounter of the day, without thinking about saving spells for later encounters. Since this happened pretty much every time, the DM eventually altered his campaign to feature one above-average difficulty encounter per day instead of the ordinary 1-4 average-difficulty encounters per day.

Things have become better since though; the players eventually realized that conserving spells was a good idea, plus checking to see whether the opposition was actually too tough to handle without the highest spell levels before blasting off.. I distinctly remember a Haste + Fireball into the bushes next to the camp, where the selected guard had heard some noise. 5 dead 1st-level thieves later, and we had a good laugh.. until the _real_ opposition showed their faces :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tabularasa 12-28-06, 05:47 PM	Hi, I run a campain as a DM. One of the recuring problem I encounter is my party runing out of spells in the middle of a Dungeon. This usually mean they need to rest somewhere which is not always practical from a story telling perspective because I try to run my NPCs smartly. I make them retreat, regroup and attack en mass PC. So, if someone has killed the first guards, I am pretty sure someone will notice and raise the alert, triggering a dungeon-wide search which means that my players won't probably have the 8 hours necessary to recuperate. This problems becomes especially accute when you mix a dungeon-crawl with an event driven story. And by the way, you know, not every single criter should be carrying scrolls. What I do instead is to allow my players, if they find a quiet spot, to speed-read their spells book. I make them roll a spellcraft check against a DC15+spell level for each spell/slot they want to regain. The end result is that they regain some spells but not as much as after an 8h rest. They are nevertheless usually in a sufficient shape to continue. I was wondering, what do you do in those circumstances?
CantripN 12-28-06, 06:00 PM	We conserve our spells, that's what. Retreat and come back later or barricade somewhere safe and/or hidden if you can't. The Spellcraft DC you've set is FAR too low, if I were to even allow it. I might allow for reading a spellbook for an hour to get back the spells, but make them take Ability Damage in their casting stat for it. Say 1 per Spell Level, only removable by resting. And only for Arcane. Divine be damned - they can just ask for Divine Interdiction.
King Bulba 12-28-06, 06:35 PM	Yeah your PC's should have the spell rope trick... They should be able to find ways to sleep for 8 hours. Use an illusion to hide your presence or something. Divine doesn't need rest to recover spells at all so they shouldnt have as much problems. There should be ways to sleep, but that doesnt mean they should be obvious. Personally as a house rules, my games have races who rest less like elves need less rest to recover spells. If you recover your stanima in 4 hours as an Elf why would it take 8 hours to get spells? My group thinks it makes no sense. Makes the ring of sustenance worth wearing, remember you need to have it on 24 hours if you plan on using it on the dungeon crawl. I like how you use smart NPCs but they need to follow the same rules then. Their spellcasters and really everyone needs to sleep too so if you are doing a dungeon crawl there are 8 hours of each day they are sleeping and can't give assistance. Also NPC casters probally have some utility spells they cast on people during the day so shouldnt have 100% of their spells left. clerics would heal peoples wounds they get and such. I am with CantripN, I dont like DC15+spell level spellcraft check since it takes arcane 1 HOUR to prepare spells after getting sleep. How is this for an idea... If you rest 4 hours you get 50% of your spells back after memorizing, 2 hours would get 25%. Then have the same % for memorizing, 50% of spells takes 30 minutes to memorize. You can do something to speed up memorizing but spellcraft doesnt really make sense to me imo. Spellcraft is about identifying spells, concentration fits better imo. Have the ability to cut that down by half with a concentration check, DC 15+1 per spell level could work here. So if you are quick memorizing half your spells it takes 15 minutes to memorize my spells with a successful concentration check.
Morgen 12-28-06, 06:41 PM	It depends on what kind of place they might be raiding. You might just be making the dungeon too big for the level of your PCs, you might be running too many encounters in the dungeon, or perhaps the PCs aren’t doing they're part to use their spells efficiently/wisely and haven't been purchasing wands/scrolls/etc. I believe that it’s usually about 3-4 encounters in a day should drain a lower level party of most of their resources. Real encounters of course, not like a lone 5hp goblin. (Which if your wizard kills with a magic missile and the other players don’t mention something about wasting spells you know what your problem really is.) There are ways in a dungeon to have places that the PCs could get some rest in, or that certain types of monsters just might not care if a patrol has gone missing. Probably got drunk and fell asleep somewhere, who really knows? Secret doors that the monsters in the dungeon haven’t found might lead towards a place that once some monstrous spiders are cleared out would be a great spot for the PCs to rest! Why? Cause everyone in the dungeon knows there are spiders in that room and want nothing to do with it. There are a lot of lower level spells that should help out your party out too. Look at the 2nd level Arcane spell Rope Trick too. Be careful with ways of giving PCs more spells that aren’t like pearls of power or scrolls. Just a generic DC wouldn’t teach them to manage spells efficiently at all. :-( The only way it could be worse was if you were using spellpoints.
Morgen 12-28-06, 06:47 PM	If you recover your stanima in 4 hours as an Elf why would it take 8 hours to get spells? My group thinks it makes no sense. Because if you don't do that an Elf Wizard can cast about twice as many spells in a day as a regular wizard, encouraging them to go all out more often or come up with really really insane ways into dungeons just because they've got 5 hours to kill. Plus at higher levels 4 hours off of a Greater Magic Weapon or a Great Mage Armor arn't that big of a deal. There still are a lot of hours/level spells that your elf mage could cast and rest and memorize other spells in that time. Plus it'd still take him an hour to memorize his spells after that. Normally that cycle would take him 9 hours but for your games it only takes him 5. So essentually the reason why its like that is to balance the arcane magic a bit. Divine only get to memorize once per day after all. Divine Casters = 1 daily Arcane Casters = 3 daily are possible Elf Arcane Caster = 6 daily are possible Plus there is that whole thing about clearing your mind and collecting the energy needed to cast spells and so forth. Much harder to do then to take a nap and wake up refreshed. And no, I'm not saying D&D should have nap rules. (1/2 hp per hour napped)
mike_beavers 12-28-06, 06:59 PM	dont your players use scrolls to increase their arsenal of spells? My players tend to buy the general use spells like the buff spells, healing etc to assist them in overcoming the bad guys
RavingDork 12-28-06, 07:02 PM	I was wondering, what do you do in those circumstances? I bought COMPLETE MAGE and introduced it to my players. The problem I was having (which mirrors yours) hasn't re-occured since thanks to the new RESERVE FEATS in that book. You should look into it.
journeyman777 12-28-06, 07:03 PM	Reserve feats, any ToB class, binder, warlock, dragonfire adept. There is a number of ways to have a party that goes all day long no problems. If you are playing the monsters smart enough to retreat and regroup, why shouldn't your players be smart enough to do the same? Time sensitive missions are why you buy wands.
Newpaintbrush 12-28-06, 07:13 PM	If they're low-level, they shouldn't be in a really dangerous dungeon in the first place. Therefore, if they ARE low-level, and they are in a really dangerous dungeon, they decided to charge recklessly into a situation they were unprepared for. TPK. (Total Party Kill) Even low level characters should be making and using scrolls, though. -- If they're higher level, they should have wands, scrolls, pearls of power, magical items to aid themselves, potions . . . it should not be a problem. If they do NOT, they are unprepared (once again), and should die. Allowing spellcasters to gain spells back speedily makes them horribly overpowered. Or, I should say, MORE horribly overpowered. Really, if you keep nerfing the rules to make it so your reckless players don't die, you WILL see first level characters charging headlong at trolls with only toothpicks for weapons. "The DM won't kill us!"
Seeker95 12-28-06, 07:30 PM	As others have said, you have a few options: 1. Conserve spells. 2. Rope trick. 3. Leomund's Shelter-like spells. 4. Use teleport for escape and return. 5. Use scrolls.
King Bulba 12-28-06, 07:40 PM	So essentually the reason why its like that is to balance the arcane magic a bit. Divine only get to memorize once per day after all. Divine Casters = 1 daily Arcane Casters = 3 daily are possible Elf Arcane Caster = 6 daily are possible Yeah thing is you are still part of a party. Just because an elf can rest 4 hours to recover his spells doesn't mean that he will be able to do that many times a day when grouped. The party will not want to rest over and over and over again. Also when is the last time someone played an elf caster? I think they need the boost since I have never seen an elf wizard played. I dont see this as a problem. It gives flexability when you need new spells the party will guard you to recover your spells without waiting 9 hours. You still live to the normal 8 hours a day you adventure so like I said where is the problem other than the hypothetical I want to rest for 5 hours after I nova. In character, players wouldnt allow it since its so disruptive. Divine is already stronger than arcane, they deserve once a day spells, plus flavor makes sense why its once a day. Arcane on the other hand makes no sense that you can only do once a day when you are just memorizing spells when you are mentrally fresh. Balance wise I really dont see a problem.
journeyman777 12-28-06, 07:46 PM	Also when is the last time someone played an elf caster? I think they need the boost since I have never seen an elf wizard played.:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
King Bulba 12-28-06, 08:04 PM	Plus at higher levels 4 hours off of a Greater Magic Weapon or a Great Mage Armor arn't that big of a deal. There still are a lot of hours/level spells that your elf mage could cast and rest and memorize other spells in that time. Yeah that's when the DM says you are too refreshed to meditate again. It will take a couple of hours untill your mind is ready to meditate again, to prevent abuses. Wow problem solved.
DarkRhystar 12-28-06, 08:39 PM	As others have said, you have a few options: 1. Conserve spells. 2. Rope trick. 3. Leomund's Shelter-like spells. 4. Use teleport for escape and return. 5. Use scrolls. A good list though number 1 is the one I recommend the most. Learning moderation as a spellcaster is one of the hardest parts, but I've found it's definitely the key to survival especially early on. :)
Fake Healer 12-28-06, 10:06 PM	#1- casters should always have a wand with an offensive spell (or 3). #2- with #1 they should have more spell slots freed up to memorize a good variety of spells. #3- Arcane casters should leave a few spell slots open so that when they find a problem that needs a certain solution they can study their spellbook to memorize the spell needed for that solution. Or they can use the empty slots when they run out of spells to "recharge" their list with a few more useful shots. ALWAYS LEAVE A FEW SPELL SLOTS OPEN! FH
Thane26425 12-28-06, 10:34 PM	Have the caster take a level of fighter or two. Yes, that cuts down on spell casting power, but it makes them tougher and gives them an increased BAB. Have them focus on ranged weapons and they can act as a secondary shooter. If you don't do that, then give the caster enchanted ranged weapons and stat boosters so that they can add to the fight more effectively than just with spells. Also, you could take those levels of fighter at lower level and use the retraining rules from the PHB2 and retrain those levels as mage later on. Reserve feats at also good to give a caster sustained firepower.
King Bulba 12-29-06, 01:10 AM	Have the caster take a level of fighter or two. Yes, that cuts down on spell casting power, but it makes them tougher and gives them an increased BAB. Have them focus on ranged weapons and they can act as a secondary shooter. If you don't do that, then give the caster enchanted ranged weapons and stat boosters so that they can add to the fight more effectively than just with spells. Also, you could take those levels of fighter at lower level and use the retraining rules from the PHB2 and retrain those levels as mage later on. Reserve feats at also good to give a caster sustained firepower. Sorry you fail. Only if you plan on being a gish should you do this, you would be better off saving the CL hits for taking better PrCs in the future. I give it a F
Thane26425 12-29-06, 09:00 AM	Sorry you fail. Only if you plan on being a gish should you do this, you would be better off saving the CL hits for taking better PrCs in the future. I give it a F Sorry, but I have used this kind of build successfully many times over the years.
Dheran 12-29-06, 12:00 PM	As CantripN and many others have said, your players should learn to conserve their spells. Every Wizard is proficient with crossbows, and if they can carry the weight a heavy crossbow is a good choice -- both for range and damage -- for that first shot in every encounter. With a Wizard's low BAB it's not as good a choice as most spells, but it's consistently superior to any exhausted spell slot. :) In addition to scrolls and wands, consider magic items like Pearls of Power to boost casting allotments. If they've been using a lot of non-combat spells they should cut back. Using Knock and Detect Secret Doors is a poor substitute for having a skilled Rogue in the party. Your "speed-reading spellbooks" workaround is a bad idea. By breaking the rules this way you're encouraging the players to keep bad habits. If these same people play with a different DM they're gonna be monster chow, and that will be your fault, Tabularasa. If you don't take off the training wheels they'll never learn how to ride.
bave 12-29-06, 01:47 PM	Sorry, but I have used this kind of build successfully many times over the years. I second the, "you fail". The sacrafice in caster level is incredibly painful compared to two levels of fighter. Why? I will tell you. Wow, you have a few more hitpoints, a better bab by 1 and 1 or 2 more feats (if a fighter). You still can't wear armor unless you are changing mid dungeon or suffering through the ASF. You are an incredible liability to the melee with poor hitpoints, poor damage output. This will absorb more resources (aka: healing) to keep you alive than if you sat back and watched or lobbed magic missle scrolls at 1xp each. You fail.
RavingDork 12-29-06, 01:52 PM	I second the, "you fail". The sacrafice in caster level is incredibly painful compared to two levels of fighter. Why? I will tell you. Wow, you have a few more hitpoints, a better bab by 1 and 1 or 2 more feats (if a fighter). You still can't wear armor unless you are changing mid dungeon or suffering through the ASF. You are an incredible liability to the melee with poor hitpoints, poor damage output. This will absorb more resources (aka: healing) to keep you alive than if you sat back and watched or lobbed magic missle scrolls at 1xp each. You fail. Actually, I think he wins quite big. He has just paved his way for the Abjurant Champion prestige class (Complete Mage). In the end he will be marginally more kick-ass then a normal wizard, especially if he takes the Practiced Spellcaster feat (Complete Arcane).
Szatany 12-29-06, 01:58 PM	I was wondering, what do you do in those circumstances? If it's the first time, I give them some slack. If it's for the second time, I laugh at people who don't invest in wands and scrolls as they die. (if they don't have enough money, I make them find what they need to keep going, barely) I didn't take my players much time to come up with a good system. About 20% of loot goes to common pool. Most diplomatic character than uses this gold to buy wands of cure [insert] wounds and some attack wands. Then whoever can use those wands and has little else to do, uses them to great benefit of others. This allowed them to survive events like City of the Spider Queen.
Kimokeo 12-29-06, 03:29 PM	Spells per day means spells per day. It doesn't matter whether they can rest in less than to not. If your DM houserules differently, then the spellcasters should be happy they even get that option. So, spellcasters must conserve their spells if they expect to need them later. Scrolls, wands, etc. are great if you can get them. If not, the caster must be even more careful. Nice DM allowing multiple rests and regaining spells makes it possible for casters to use most of their spells without learning to conserve. That'll hurt them when they enter other games that go by the rules (especially conventions). I suggest crossbows/bows and lots of ammo- -learn to use them. Keep the spell for later.
Xenephon 12-29-06, 08:15 PM	This could go two ways: It could be that the players are not planning ahead and thinking about the need to conserve resources. I have played as the sole spellcaster in a party from 2nd through to 10th level (as a sorcerer even) and in the earlier levels I probably shot my crossbow far more times than I cast a spell. Make it clear in this situation that basically one load of spells is all you get in a session and that the players need to think about how sensibly they are using their resources. The other alternative is that you are being unreasonable as a DM and throwing far more opposition at them at a time than their abilities and resources can sustain :D Xenephon
True Cavalier 12-29-06, 08:26 PM	If all else fails, try the Recharge Magic variant from Unearthed Arcana. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/rechargeMagic.htm
Morwen 12-30-06, 12:51 AM	When I started playing in my current group, the spellcasters among the PCs tended to spend all their highest-level spells in the first encounter of the day, without thinking about saving spells for later encounters. Since this happened pretty much every time, the DM eventually altered his campaign to feature one above-average difficulty encounter per day instead of the ordinary 1-4 average-difficulty encounters per day. Things have become better since though; the players eventually realized that conserving spells was a good idea, plus checking to see whether the opposition was actually too tough to handle without the highest spell levels before blasting off.. I distinctly remember a Haste + Fireball into the bushes next to the camp, where the selected guard had heard some noise. 5 dead 1st-level thieves later, and we had a good laugh.. until the _real_ opposition showed their faces :)