Artifact level effect, When do I introduce it? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Artifact level effect, When do I introduce it? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Realms of Chaos
01-31-06, 11:58 PM As the thread's name should suggest, I'm asking about when I should introduce a particular effect of an artifact to my group (not the artifact itself, just this one effect) and what gp value I would set it at to help me determine this.

To sum it up, Every day, the subject gains +1 strength, +1 constitution, grows 5 inches taller, and gains 50 pounds. On the downside, they lose 1 point of Intelligence, Dexterity, and Charisma every five days until all 3 scores are at 1 (when the transformation stops). The character in mind for this bold transformation has 10 dex, 2 int (long story), and 9 cha.

I realize the possable overbearing threat that this could create (gaining +45 to strength and constitution, growing over 18 feet (what size category do they increase to if they start at medium, by the way), and gaining over 2000 pounds tends to be that way every time).

1. Is this impossable to price for a non-epic character (Yes, I'd expect but I have to make sure)?
2. If I lowered the rate of the transformation so that only 1 "stage" occured every week, would that help to balance it out as it would be gradual?
3. Would giving up a gained level in order to initiate this effect in addition to #2 make it balanced?

P.S. I understand the possable implications involved when including anything near an artifact in a game so please don't go ranting about it.
Realms of Chaos
02-01-06, 09:12 AM Okay, rant, whatever. I just reallly need some input on this. PLEEASE. :help:
tarkin
02-01-06, 11:49 AM Artifacts do not have GP values. Effects are not priced. If it has a price, then it is not an artifact.

Typically, players start running into minor artifacts around 12th-14th level.

Also, I would re-word it as follows:

Every day, the VICTIM gains +1 strength, +1 constitution, grows 5 inches taller, and gains 50 pounds. On the downside, i they lose 1 point of Intelligence, Dexterity, and Charisma every five days. Stats can not be lowered below 1. When all 3 scores are at 1, ALL effects stops.

Note, 5 inches taller +50 lbs is nice, they slowely get taller, but are gaining too much weight. (5'6", 150 lbs is normal. Adding 10 inches makes me 6'4", 250 lbs = overweight) I like the fact that they are going to be FAT, at least for a little while.

It is possible for them to go 45 days. That means they are going to end up 45*5/12 = 18.75 ft taller than normal. That easily qualifies them as Huge. Two size categories. But they will also end up as 45*50 = 2250 lbs heavier

1) No price, this is clearly an artifact, with some nasty side effects. Forget about price. If they are at least 12th level, it should be fine.

2) 1 stage/week seems OK to me, but it also looks fine as is. Only a fool would willingly accept this curst item. Basically You have feebleminded him.

3) Keep in mind that:

A) They will be stupider than most animals, and incapable of casting Int based spells
B) They will be VERY easy to hit (AC penalties for size, plus Dex penalties), move slowly, and have a bad reflex saves
C) They will obnoxious and socially incompetent, and incapable of casting Charisma based spells or using Charisma based abilities

For balance purposes, this is a CURSE. It does not need a level penalty, but I think a negative level while the item is operating on you is appropriate.
DarknessEternal
02-01-06, 11:58 AM The character in mind for this bold transformation has 10 dex, 2 int (long story), and 9 cha.

Long story or not, something with 2 Int is not allowed to be a Player Character. If you've ever wondered why races with an Int penalty have the clause that it can't reduce their Int below 3, now you know why.

Less than 3 Int is animal intelligence. There's no rational thought.
Realms of Chaos
02-02-06, 12:39 AM Actually, The only reason that their intelligence got so low is that I gave them the feral template from savage species instead of a level (hooray for +1 level adjustment) which has a minimum intelligence of 2 after the -6 decrease. We are having alot of fun treating him as, well, a pet. The large amount of smashing in things keeps the player happy too so all is well in the world. :D

I actually know that artifacts aren't given a cost but in the dungeon master's guide II, approximate cost equivelants for artifacts were given. I was just asking for an approximate gp equivelancy (to replace it for other items) and a level of player to introduce it to.

I personally think that if I dock all experience points from the player while the transformation is in proccess and double experience points for all levels afterwards, I could introduce it to the player now (level 1 feral half-orc fighter), especially as the once per week thing will make sure that he only gains the benefits once or at most twice per mission while my missions are intended to make each of my party members grow a level with each one. I think that this would keep everything in line.

P.S.: I am a veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrry casual DM in case you haven't noticed (and quite an unexperienced one as well :weep: )

(This is the part where you flame me... with the flames of 1,000 suns :cool: )
Ryll
02-02-06, 05:24 AM Note, 5 inches taller +50 lbs is nice, they slowely get taller, but are gaining too much weight. (5'6", 150 lbs is normal. Adding 10 inches makes me 6'4", 250 lbs = overweight) I like the fact that they are going to be FAT, at least for a little while.

Actually, 250 lbs for 6'4" is not all that fat if the person is a muscle bound sort (a la bodybuilder, powerlifter, fantasy-barbarian type).

Body builders at 6'4" are often this weight, or close to it. The 50 pounds will actually be too little, as normally a doubling of height will increase weight by a factor of 8, assuming the growing person keeps essentially the same ratio of height, weight, depth. So normally a 5'6" person that weighs 150 pounds, if they were to grows 18.75 feet taller, to a height of 24.25 feet should weigh about 12,857 pounds if they are the same relative dimensions... at just over 2000 pounds, that character would look like a skeleton, and a pretty thin one at that :)
[GSV] Kirstar
02-02-06, 05:25 AM not everything in this game is Gp value dude.

and tarkin post about 6'4" 250 being overweight has hurt my feelings. (6' 250 lbs)

anyway.

intersting item, basically the player becomes unplayable as soon as intelegence reaches 1, he is an animal, you should take him over and have the player make a new character.

Also dont tell the player why you are taking him over. Just turn round at the start of your next session and tell him new charcter. The party will be confused when their pet sticks around....

However tha characterr will get stronger and stronger and stronger untill you have a raging hulk of muscle that can squish things easily.

after a few weeks / months of their own personnal tank / splat machine that gradulyl gets more and more stupid....

Wouldnt take much for this creature to go off and start attackiong everything. Think how much fun you could have making the party fight this thing.

Also afte they have been forced to kill the character they will probably take teh artifact and the whole thing starts happening again

mmwwhhhuuuaaaaaaaaaaa

whats the other powers you have issued ?
MaverickWolf
02-02-06, 08:25 AM Kirstar']and tarkin post about 6'4" 250 being overweight has hurt my feelings. (6' 250 lbs)
Somehow, I'm fairly certain tarkin didn't mean it to be insulting. BWhat he was referring to is the fact that medical standards do indeed dictate that 250 lbs is above recommended weight for someone who is 6'4" tall. However, in my personal experience (and I'm medically underweight, while my father is overweight by a large margin and is aware of it), these standards simply aren't accurate, as the nuances of the human body vary so much from person to person that across the board standards simply don't work. While 250 lbs. may be more than an average 6'4" male body can safely handle, someone with a large frame or a high bone density may find it a perfectly suitable weight for them. ((Especially considering some people have a higher natural muscle density than others, and muscle by itself adds a significant amount of weight to the body [more than an equivalent volume of fat, as a matter of fact].))
Seeker95
02-02-06, 09:54 AM Artifacts are not balanced. They are placed in your campaign because you need or want it there. If it advances your plot, add it. If it does not, then don't.
[GSV] Kirstar
02-02-06, 09:55 AM I was joking about the weight btw
MaverickWolf
02-02-06, 10:14 AM Kirstar']I was joking about the weight btw
While I realized that possibility, such things are difficult to convey over the 'net without use of smilies. Besides, others might actually be offended, and if I stop even one argument or help one person feel better, it's worth the time it took to type the post.
kraegor
02-02-06, 07:09 PM I am 6'4 and 250 and I am not fat... hrmm you must be a short skinny mongrel.

I am just trying to decide what this artifact, in a sense.. even DOES?

Most artifacts have a specific reason for being, not just "magically increasing size, weight and stats"

Artifacts are powerful magical items that slowly warp and twist a person over time. There is usually a back story or something beyond this.

I mean, if you want to do this, why not just make a Headband of Perfection +6 (ads +6 to all stats) but every week they wear it, thier abilities are really reduced by 1 point until it reaches 6 weeks, then at that time, if the character ever takes the headband off, it immediately drops him -6 to all his stats.

Something like that would be fine, since the headband was made by a wizard long ago looking for a "perfect" magical item to boost his abilities, but over the years has become twisted and corrupted by all the people that have used it, and now it just does what it does.

Something like that maybe I dunno.

But hey its your campaign, hehe, if you want colossal 70 strength feral people running around, more power to ya! :)
Realms of Chaos
02-02-06, 09:15 PM Surprisingly, it hit me last night after I took a shower how it shouldn't be priced and a 1 int character isn't playable. I'm going to retroactively raise his intelligence to three and never speak of this again. I repeat, never speak of this again.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Realms of Chaos 01-31-06, 11:58 PM	As the thread's name should suggest, I'm asking about when I should introduce a particular effect of an artifact to my group (not the artifact itself, just this one effect) and what gp value I would set it at to help me determine this. To sum it up, Every day, the subject gains +1 strength, +1 constitution, grows 5 inches taller, and gains 50 pounds. On the downside, they lose 1 point of Intelligence, Dexterity, and Charisma every five days until all 3 scores are at 1 (when the transformation stops). The character in mind for this bold transformation has 10 dex, 2 int (long story), and 9 cha. I realize the possable overbearing threat that this could create (gaining +45 to strength and constitution, growing over 18 feet (what size category do they increase to if they start at medium, by the way), and gaining over 2000 pounds tends to be that way every time). 1. Is this impossable to price for a non-epic character (Yes, I'd expect but I have to make sure)? 2. If I lowered the rate of the transformation so that only 1 "stage" occured every week, would that help to balance it out as it would be gradual? 3. Would giving up a gained level in order to initiate this effect in addition to #2 make it balanced? P.S. I understand the possable implications involved when including anything near an artifact in a game so please don't go ranting about it.
Realms of Chaos 02-01-06, 09:12 AM	Okay, rant, whatever. I just reallly need some input on this. PLEEASE. :help:
tarkin 02-01-06, 11:49 AM	Artifacts do not have GP values. Effects are not priced. If it has a price, then it is not an artifact. Typically, players start running into minor artifacts around 12th-14th level. Also, I would re-word it as follows: Every day, the VICTIM gains +1 strength, +1 constitution, grows 5 inches taller, and gains 50 pounds. On the downside, i they lose 1 point of Intelligence, Dexterity, and Charisma every five days. Stats can not be lowered below 1. When all 3 scores are at 1, ALL effects stops. Note, 5 inches taller +50 lbs is nice, they slowely get taller, but are gaining too much weight. (5'6", 150 lbs is normal. Adding 10 inches makes me 6'4", 250 lbs = overweight) I like the fact that they are going to be FAT, at least for a little while. It is possible for them to go 45 days. That means they are going to end up 455/12 = 18.75 ft taller than normal. That easily qualifies them as Huge. Two size categories. But they will also end up as 4550 = 2250 lbs heavier 1) No price, this is clearly an artifact, with some nasty side effects. Forget about price. If they are at least 12th level, it should be fine. 2) 1 stage/week seems OK to me, but it also looks fine as is. Only a fool would willingly accept this curst item. Basically You have feebleminded him. 3) Keep in mind that: A) They will be stupider than most animals, and incapable of casting Int based spells B) They will be VERY easy to hit (AC penalties for size, plus Dex penalties), move slowly, and have a bad reflex saves C) They will obnoxious and socially incompetent, and incapable of casting Charisma based spells or using Charisma based abilities For balance purposes, this is a CURSE. It does not need a level penalty, but I think a negative level while the item is operating on you is appropriate.
DarknessEternal 02-01-06, 11:58 AM	The character in mind for this bold transformation has 10 dex, 2 int (long story), and 9 cha. Long story or not, something with 2 Int is not allowed to be a Player Character. If you've ever wondered why races with an Int penalty have the clause that it can't reduce their Int below 3, now you know why. Less than 3 Int is animal intelligence. There's no rational thought.
Realms of Chaos 02-02-06, 12:39 AM	Actually, The only reason that their intelligence got so low is that I gave them the feral template from savage species instead of a level (hooray for +1 level adjustment) which has a minimum intelligence of 2 after the -6 decrease. We are having alot of fun treating him as, well, a pet. The large amount of smashing in things keeps the player happy too so all is well in the world. :D I actually know that artifacts aren't given a cost but in the dungeon master's guide II, approximate cost equivelants for artifacts were given. I was just asking for an approximate gp equivelancy (to replace it for other items) and a level of player to introduce it to. I personally think that if I dock all experience points from the player while the transformation is in proccess and double experience points for all levels afterwards, I could introduce it to the player now (level 1 feral half-orc fighter), especially as the once per week thing will make sure that he only gains the benefits once or at most twice per mission while my missions are intended to make each of my party members grow a level with each one. I think that this would keep everything in line. P.S.: I am a veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrry casual DM in case you haven't noticed (and quite an unexperienced one as well :weep: ) (This is the part where you flame me... with the flames of 1,000 suns :cool: )
Ryll 02-02-06, 05:24 AM	Note, 5 inches taller +50 lbs is nice, they slowely get taller, but are gaining too much weight. (5'6", 150 lbs is normal. Adding 10 inches makes me 6'4", 250 lbs = overweight) I like the fact that they are going to be FAT, at least for a little while. Actually, 250 lbs for 6'4" is not all that fat if the person is a muscle bound sort (a la bodybuilder, powerlifter, fantasy-barbarian type). Body builders at 6'4" are often this weight, or close to it. The 50 pounds will actually be too little, as normally a doubling of height will increase weight by a factor of 8, assuming the growing person keeps essentially the same ratio of height, weight, depth. So normally a 5'6" person that weighs 150 pounds, if they were to grows 18.75 feet taller, to a height of 24.25 feet should weigh about 12,857 pounds if they are the same relative dimensions... at just over 2000 pounds, that character would look like a skeleton, and a pretty thin one at that :)
[GSV] Kirstar 02-02-06, 05:25 AM	not everything in this game is Gp value dude. and tarkin post about 6'4" 250 being overweight has hurt my feelings. (6' 250 lbs) anyway. intersting item, basically the player becomes unplayable as soon as intelegence reaches 1, he is an animal, you should take him over and have the player make a new character. Also dont tell the player why you are taking him over. Just turn round at the start of your next session and tell him new charcter. The party will be confused when their pet sticks around.... However tha characterr will get stronger and stronger and stronger untill you have a raging hulk of muscle that can squish things easily. after a few weeks / months of their own personnal tank / splat machine that gradulyl gets more and more stupid.... Wouldnt take much for this creature to go off and start attackiong everything. Think how much fun you could have making the party fight this thing. Also afte they have been forced to kill the character they will probably take teh artifact and the whole thing starts happening again mmwwhhhuuuaaaaaaaaaaa whats the other powers you have issued ?
MaverickWolf 02-02-06, 08:25 AM	Kirstar']and tarkin post about 6'4" 250 being overweight has hurt my feelings. (6' 250 lbs) Somehow, I'm fairly certain tarkin didn't mean it to be insulting. BWhat he was referring to is the fact that medical standards do indeed dictate that 250 lbs is above recommended weight for someone who is 6'4" tall. However, in my personal experience (and I'm medically underweight, while my father is overweight by a large margin and is aware of it), these standards simply aren't accurate, as the nuances of the human body vary so much from person to person that across the board standards simply don't work. While 250 lbs. may be more than an average 6'4" male body can safely handle, someone with a large frame or a high bone density may find it a perfectly suitable weight for them. ((Especially considering some people have a higher natural muscle density than others, and muscle by itself adds a significant amount of weight to the body [more than an equivalent volume of fat, as a matter of fact].))
Seeker95 02-02-06, 09:54 AM	Artifacts are not balanced. They are placed in your campaign because you need or want it there. If it advances your plot, add it. If it does not, then don't.
[GSV] Kirstar 02-02-06, 09:55 AM	I was joking about the weight btw
MaverickWolf 02-02-06, 10:14 AM	Kirstar']I was joking about the weight btw While I realized that possibility, such things are difficult to convey over the 'net without use of smilies. Besides, others might actually be offended, and if I stop even one argument or help one person feel better, it's worth the time it took to type the post.
kraegor 02-02-06, 07:09 PM	I am 6'4 and 250 and I am not fat... hrmm you must be a short skinny mongrel. I am just trying to decide what this artifact, in a sense.. even DOES? Most artifacts have a specific reason for being, not just "magically increasing size, weight and stats" Artifacts are powerful magical items that slowly warp and twist a person over time. There is usually a back story or something beyond this. I mean, if you want to do this, why not just make a Headband of Perfection +6 (ads +6 to all stats) but every week they wear it, thier abilities are really reduced by 1 point until it reaches 6 weeks, then at that time, if the character ever takes the headband off, it immediately drops him -6 to all his stats. Something like that would be fine, since the headband was made by a wizard long ago looking for a "perfect" magical item to boost his abilities, but over the years has become twisted and corrupted by all the people that have used it, and now it just does what it does. Something like that maybe I dunno. But hey its your campaign, hehe, if you want colossal 70 strength feral people running around, more power to ya! :)
Realms of Chaos 02-02-06, 09:15 PM	Surprisingly, it hit me last night after I took a shower how it shouldn't be priced and a 1 int character isn't playable. I'm going to retroactively raise his intelligence to three and never speak of this again. I repeat, never speak of this again.