Ask Wizards saves reserve feats! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ask Wizards saves reserve feats! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
nytemare3701
04-09-08, 04:28 AM Ask wizards 11/23/06 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061123a) & 11/21/06 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061121a)

Not game breaking, but still a nice boost for the Sorc.

as long as you have heighten spell and any level spell of the correct element (I'm looking at YOU minor orb spells) your reserve feats cast at your highest spell level, thereby freeing up those precious spells known!

Discuss?
T_Stalker
04-09-08, 06:33 AM What's so big about that? I've been using the feats like that for months now. It's clearly stated in the feat descriptions.
Kouk
04-09-08, 09:34 AM As long as you have a spell slot of the appropriate level left unused....

EDIT: I'm still not convinced that it works that way just because you have a bunch of level one spells and Heighten Spell.
Selgard
04-09-08, 09:42 AM By that reasoning, energy substitution could be a fairly handy feat for the sorc who wants to make use of lots'o reserve feats.
Jay_Ibero_911
04-09-08, 10:28 AM By that reasoning, energy substitution could be a fairly handy feat for the sorc who wants to make use of lots'o reserve feats.

Yeah, but Sorcs are about as feat starved as they are spell starved...
green_yawgmoth
04-09-08, 10:45 AM Yeah, but Sorcs are about as feat starved as they are spell starved... Yay for flawed humans!
Merestil Haye
04-09-08, 11:15 AM We can be certain that an 8th level Sorcerer with Orb of Acid, Storm Bolt and Energy Substitution (Electricity) is not considered to have a 4th level spell with the Electricity descriptor available to cast by virtue of possessing this combination. On page 37 we read Only actual spells or spell slots allow the character to use the primary benefit of a reserve feat. Spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, and extraordinary abilities—even if they mimic or duplicate an appropriate spell—do not qualify. Spells that do not have a descriptor until cast (such as the summon monster spells) can't be used to gain the primary benefit of a reserve feat.Orb of Acid does not get the Electricity descriptor until it is cast, so it is not, for the purposes of Storm Bolt, an Electricity spell of 3rd level or higher.

I believe that, by analogy, a spell is known by a sorcerer at its base level, not at a spell level that it could be cast if Heighten Spell were applied to it. Lightning Bolt is a 3rd level spell, not a 6th level spell, even if the character has Heighten Spell and available 6th level slots.

The only time Lightning Bolt becomes a 6th level spell for a spontaneous caster is as it is being cast with Heighten Spell applied. When you are doing that you cannot simultaneously be using the Storm Bolt feat.

Consequently I would rule against that working for spontaneous casters. For preparing casters, so long as the heightened spell remains uncast it works fine.
Hsien
04-09-08, 11:59 AM This has been hashed over before.
iirc, the argument that Mersetil has presented provides game mechanics that support that position and seem to be the generally accepted end result.

The opposing side, which wanted Sorc to be able to use Heighten to spontaneously effect Reserve feats did not provide a game mechanic supporting that conclusion; since Sorc can't cast a spell, apply meta-magic heighten to that then use reserve feat based off that at the same time.

Note: My group used a house rule basically allowing that as a full round action ( so no move action or even a 5' step ) Sorc could apply Heighten..essentially building up energy for spell and then converting it to a reserve feat instead. It seemed to work fine and was not game breaking in any situation we ran into.
LSMFT
04-09-08, 12:02 PM I agree. Heighten, or any other feat applied spontaneously, is not in effect until it is cast. The feats are based on the spell’s actual level, not the level it could be when you cast it.
nytemare3701
04-09-08, 02:09 PM "Even though a metamagic feat changes the level of the slot occupied by the spell, it doesn’t actually change the spell’s level (except for the Heighten Spell feat, or any other effect that specifically changes the spell’s actual level)."

That's a pretty clear exception to me. What's more, this is written in an Ask Wizards ABOUT Reserve feats.

Maybe only prepared casters can use it though.
Eldritch_Lord
04-09-08, 02:25 PM Maybe only prepared casters can use it though.

That's it, I think; the point of that was that you can't use a metamagic'd spell to use a reserve feat of the higher level unless it actually changes the level, like Heighten does. That says nothing, however, about letting spontaneous casters use Heighten that way, because they don't apply metamagic until casting the spell and thus don't have a Heightened spell already to power the feat.
LSMFT
04-09-08, 02:26 PM Both the answer and the question specifically reference "prepared" spells. Heightened Fireball prepared in a sixth-level slot would work fine.

But that has no bearing on a spontaneously cast Fireball that could be Heightened, but is not, until it is cast.
Damned slayer
04-09-08, 02:35 PM works the same way as multi type spell (summon monsters)

it's untyped until it's cast so no it doesn't count for reserve feats
Vegepygmy
04-09-08, 03:35 PM This has been hashed over before.
iirc, the argument that Mersetil has presented provides game mechanics that support that position and seem to be the generally accepted end result.Yep. But it's nice to see Ask Wizards agreeing with me (the minority view).

IMO, you don't know how to cast "Fireball (Level 3)," you just know how to cast "Fireball." When a sorcerer with Heighten Spell casts "Fireball," he casts it as a 3rd-level spell, or a 4th-level spell, or whatever. But it's still the same spell: "Fireball."

I could flesh out the rest of the argument, but as you say, it's been hashed over before. The majority disagrees with me (and Ask Wizards, apparently). 'Nuff said.
LSMFT
04-09-08, 04:23 PM How do you conclude that Ask Wizards agrees with you? They only talked about prepared casting. Nothing suggests that the effect of Heighten would have any relevance outside the context of a spell that was prepared with Heighten.
Vegepygmy
04-09-08, 08:12 PM How do you conclude that Ask Wizards agrees with you? They only talked about prepared casting. Nothing suggests that the effect of Heighten would have any relevance outside the context of a spell that was prepared with Heighten.I guess I misunderstood the OP. Or did the OP misunderstand Ask Wizards?

Not game breaking, but still a nice boost for the Sorc.

as long as you have heighten spell and any level spell of the correct element (I'm looking at YOU minor orb spells) your reserve feats cast at your highest spell level,
risner
04-09-08, 11:01 PM I agree. Heighten, or any other feat applied spontaneously, is not in effect until it is cast. The feats are based on the spell’s actual level, not the level it could be when you cast it.

I agree with this line of thinking.
nytemare3701
04-10-08, 03:13 AM In conclusion:

Prepared casters can heighten a spell when they prepare it, giving them a spell of whatever level, making the reserve feats scale as you play. Not a great choice, but it still beats the sorcerer!
Nezkrul
04-10-08, 09:43 AM yes sorcs are feat starved compared to wizards, but they can take arcane preparation to make heighten work for them.
LSMFT
04-10-08, 11:11 AM I guess I misunderstood the OP. Or did the OP misunderstand Ask Wizards?I think he misunderstood, read into, the Ask Wizards.

Prepared casters can heighten a spell when they prepare it, giving them a spell of whatever level, making the reserve feats scale as you play. Not a great choice, but it still beats the sorcerer!The reserve feats already scale. The wizard, who can know any spell he wants on his list, could, theoretically, Heighten a low level spell to a higher level slot, and power his reserve feat off that.

But he could spend a little time and gold to actually know a spell that will work in that slot instead of Heightening one. That a sorcerer cannot do this only means he cannot waste his resources as well as the wizard can, and has fewer to waste. Though, he can win the “who can be the least efficient with his feats and slots” contest by taking Arcane Preparation.
Damned slayer
04-10-08, 11:26 AM sorcerer only need to know the spell and have 1 slot free
so he can cast some and let 1 slot unused
if he know 4 spells lvl 4 for which he have reserve feats he only need 1 slot free
while wizards needs to prepare 1 of each

it's the only advantage of being sorcerer
groveborn
04-10-08, 02:05 PM Or the sorcerer could just take that feat that allows him to prepare spells. :)
LSMFT
04-10-08, 02:33 PM Or the sorcerer could just take that feat that allows him to prepare spells. :) Though, he can win the “who can be the least efficient with his feats and slots” contest by taking Arcane Preparation...
groveborn
04-10-08, 05:51 PM :) So I don't read every single post.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
nytemare3701 04-09-08, 04:28 AM	Ask wizards 11/23/06 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061123a) & 11/21/06 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061121a) Not game breaking, but still a nice boost for the Sorc. as long as you have heighten spell and any level spell of the correct element (I'm looking at YOU minor orb spells) your reserve feats cast at your highest spell level, thereby freeing up those precious spells known! Discuss?
T_Stalker 04-09-08, 06:33 AM	What's so big about that? I've been using the feats like that for months now. It's clearly stated in the feat descriptions.
Kouk 04-09-08, 09:34 AM	As long as you have a spell slot of the appropriate level left unused.... EDIT: I'm still not convinced that it works that way just because you have a bunch of level one spells and Heighten Spell.
Selgard 04-09-08, 09:42 AM	By that reasoning, energy substitution could be a fairly handy feat for the sorc who wants to make use of lots'o reserve feats.
Jay_Ibero_911 04-09-08, 10:28 AM	By that reasoning, energy substitution could be a fairly handy feat for the sorc who wants to make use of lots'o reserve feats. Yeah, but Sorcs are about as feat starved as they are spell starved...
green_yawgmoth 04-09-08, 10:45 AM	Yeah, but Sorcs are about as feat starved as they are spell starved... Yay for flawed humans!
Merestil Haye 04-09-08, 11:15 AM	We can be certain that an 8th level Sorcerer with Orb of Acid, Storm Bolt and Energy Substitution (Electricity) is not considered to have a 4th level spell with the Electricity descriptor available to cast by virtue of possessing this combination. On page 37 we read Only actual spells or spell slots allow the character to use the primary benefit of a reserve feat. Spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, and extraordinary abilities—even if they mimic or duplicate an appropriate spell—do not qualify. Spells that do not have a descriptor until cast (such as the summon monster spells) can't be used to gain the primary benefit of a reserve feat.Orb of Acid does not get the Electricity descriptor until it is cast, so it is not, for the purposes of Storm Bolt, an Electricity spell of 3rd level or higher. I believe that, by analogy, a spell is known by a sorcerer at its base level, not at a spell level that it could be cast if Heighten Spell were applied to it. Lightning Bolt is a 3rd level spell, not a 6th level spell, even if the character has Heighten Spell and available 6th level slots. The only time Lightning Bolt becomes a 6th level spell for a spontaneous caster is as it is being cast with Heighten Spell applied. When you are doing that you cannot simultaneously be using the Storm Bolt feat. Consequently I would rule against that working for spontaneous casters. For preparing casters, so long as the heightened spell remains uncast it works fine.
Hsien 04-09-08, 11:59 AM	This has been hashed over before. iirc, the argument that Mersetil has presented provides game mechanics that support that position and seem to be the generally accepted end result. The opposing side, which wanted Sorc to be able to use Heighten to spontaneously effect Reserve feats did not provide a game mechanic supporting that conclusion; since Sorc can't cast a spell, apply meta-magic heighten to that then use reserve feat based off that at the same time. Note: My group used a house rule basically allowing that as a full round action ( so no move action or even a 5' step ) Sorc could apply Heighten..essentially building up energy for spell and then converting it to a reserve feat instead. It seemed to work fine and was not game breaking in any situation we ran into.
LSMFT 04-09-08, 12:02 PM	I agree. Heighten, or any other feat applied spontaneously, is not in effect until it is cast. The feats are based on the spell’s actual level, not the level it could be when you cast it.
nytemare3701 04-09-08, 02:09 PM	"Even though a metamagic feat changes the level of the slot occupied by the spell, it doesn’t actually change the spell’s level (except for the Heighten Spell feat, or any other effect that specifically changes the spell’s actual level)." That's a pretty clear exception to me. What's more, this is written in an Ask Wizards ABOUT Reserve feats. Maybe only prepared casters can use it though.
Eldritch_Lord 04-09-08, 02:25 PM	Maybe only prepared casters can use it though. That's it, I think; the point of that was that you can't use a metamagic'd spell to use a reserve feat of the higher level unless it actually changes the level, like Heighten does. That says nothing, however, about letting spontaneous casters use Heighten that way, because they don't apply metamagic until casting the spell and thus don't have a Heightened spell already to power the feat.
LSMFT 04-09-08, 02:26 PM	Both the answer and the question specifically reference "prepared" spells. Heightened Fireball prepared in a sixth-level slot would work fine. But that has no bearing on a spontaneously cast Fireball that could be Heightened, but is not, until it is cast.
Damned slayer 04-09-08, 02:35 PM	works the same way as multi type spell (summon monsters) it's untyped until it's cast so no it doesn't count for reserve feats
Vegepygmy 04-09-08, 03:35 PM	This has been hashed over before. iirc, the argument that Mersetil has presented provides game mechanics that support that position and seem to be the generally accepted end result.Yep. But it's nice to see Ask Wizards agreeing with me (the minority view). IMO, you don't know how to cast "Fireball (Level 3)," you just know how to cast "Fireball." When a sorcerer with Heighten Spell casts "Fireball," he casts it as a 3rd-level spell, or a 4th-level spell, or whatever. But it's still the same spell: "Fireball." I could flesh out the rest of the argument, but as you say, it's been hashed over before. The majority disagrees with me (and Ask Wizards, apparently). 'Nuff said.
LSMFT 04-09-08, 04:23 PM	How do you conclude that Ask Wizards agrees with you? They only talked about prepared casting. Nothing suggests that the effect of Heighten would have any relevance outside the context of a spell that was prepared with Heighten.
Vegepygmy 04-09-08, 08:12 PM	How do you conclude that Ask Wizards agrees with you? They only talked about prepared casting. Nothing suggests that the effect of Heighten would have any relevance outside the context of a spell that was prepared with Heighten.I guess I misunderstood the OP. Or did the OP misunderstand Ask Wizards? Not game breaking, but still a nice boost for the Sorc. as long as you have heighten spell and any level spell of the correct element (I'm looking at YOU minor orb spells) your reserve feats cast at your highest spell level,
risner 04-09-08, 11:01 PM	I agree. Heighten, or any other feat applied spontaneously, is not in effect until it is cast. The feats are based on the spell’s actual level, not the level it could be when you cast it. I agree with this line of thinking.
nytemare3701 04-10-08, 03:13 AM	In conclusion: Prepared casters can heighten a spell when they prepare it, giving them a spell of whatever level, making the reserve feats scale as you play. Not a great choice, but it still beats the sorcerer!
Nezkrul 04-10-08, 09:43 AM	yes sorcs are feat starved compared to wizards, but they can take arcane preparation to make heighten work for them.
LSMFT 04-10-08, 11:11 AM	I guess I misunderstood the OP. Or did the OP misunderstand Ask Wizards?I think he misunderstood, read into, the Ask Wizards. Prepared casters can heighten a spell when they prepare it, giving them a spell of whatever level, making the reserve feats scale as you play. Not a great choice, but it still beats the sorcerer!The reserve feats already scale. The wizard, who can know any spell he wants on his list, could, theoretically, Heighten a low level spell to a higher level slot, and power his reserve feat off that. But he could spend a little time and gold to actually know a spell that will work in that slot instead of Heightening one. That a sorcerer cannot do this only means he cannot waste his resources as well as the wizard can, and has fewer to waste. Though, he can win the “who can be the least efficient with his feats and slots” contest by taking Arcane Preparation.
Damned slayer 04-10-08, 11:26 AM	sorcerer only need to know the spell and have 1 slot free so he can cast some and let 1 slot unused if he know 4 spells lvl 4 for which he have reserve feats he only need 1 slot free while wizards needs to prepare 1 of each it's the only advantage of being sorcerer
groveborn 04-10-08, 02:05 PM	Or the sorcerer could just take that feat that allows him to prepare spells. :)
LSMFT 04-10-08, 02:33 PM	Or the sorcerer could just take that feat that allows him to prepare spells. :) Though, he can win the “who can be the least efficient with his feats and slots” contest by taking Arcane Preparation...
groveborn 04-10-08, 05:51 PM	:) So I don't read every single post.