Post/Author/DateTime	Post
unundindur 08-02-07, 11:11 AM	Hello I have a tiny question. First let me first say that I do not ask what RAW or RAI say, I know those two pretty well. I would just like to aks what you think about getting angelwings that allow you to fly with a wish spell. Would this be a problem at higher levels, powerwise? I would think 5000xp should be ok for that sort of deal when you could anyway cast fly, overland flight and have boots of fly eternally...
fastspawn 08-02-07, 11:14 AM	There is actually equipment called "Wings of Flying" Wings of Flying A pair of these wings might appear to be nothing more than a plain cloak of old, black cloth, or they could be as elegant as a long cape of blue feathers. When the wearer speaks the command word, the cloak turns into a pair of bat or bird wings that empower her to fly with a speed of 60 feet (good maneuverability). Moderate transmutation; CL 10th; Craft Wondrous Item, fly; Price 54,000 gp; Weight 2 lb. You don't have to wait till Wish to get it.
qwerty1 08-02-07, 11:18 AM	I would give you "Wings of Flying" for a "Wish" to fly.
Witch 08-02-07, 11:18 AM	I'd give you an Extended Alter Self if you asked for it. Or that item, if you could pay the XP for it.
Seeker95 08-02-07, 11:48 AM	I would also consider granting the wish by imbuing the target with a permanent fly spell, complete with all of the risks of permanent spells. Then again, I might just have the wish give the target a ring of flying. Keep it simple.
jaelis 08-02-07, 12:01 PM	I would also consider granting the wish by imbuing the target with a permanent fly spell, complete with all of the risks of permanent spells. That's what I would do. Though you could have wings for cosmetic purposes.
tarkin 08-02-07, 12:27 PM	A Permanent 3rd spell sounds to me just barely within the reasonable things a Wish can cast. (permanent = 5th, 3rd = 3rd, togeterh = 8th, seems about in line with the ability to cast a single 8th level spell) However, Fly is NOT on the list of spells that are legal to make permanent. I would probalby rule that for that reason, it cost a little bit more than the standard 5000 xp. Call it 6,500 xp, and let it happen. If you had a scroll/etc, you would have to pay the extra 1,500 xp yourself.
Frogmantis 08-02-07, 03:48 PM	..well, its wish, isn't it? depending upon who slick and vile your DM may or may not be, I'd say you could easily grant yourself wings. give you a decent fly speed, average or lower maneuverability; just make similar to a creature of your type and size. for example, were i the dm, and you were, say, a 18th level human wizard with the wish spell, i'd give you wings similar to the class feature of the favored soul (60ft fly speed, good maneuverability; can pick your color from holy white to nasty black, etc).
ArcTan 08-02-07, 03:51 PM	Generally I think truly "permanent" effects should be given as magic items, not as spells. I'm *adamantly* opposed to making "permanent" effects *really* permanent -- i.e. an inherent part of the character that can't be dispelled or suppressed -- since to me that devalues magic items.
Frogmantis 08-02-07, 03:53 PM	some of us like devaluing magic items. .... :) but seriously, sometimes a characters reliance on them is not only their downfall, but also a pure and simple game flaw. i mean, i know DnD isn't exalted, but aren't we supposed to be playing mighty heroes and such? capable of great feats under their own skill and resolve?
Mindolin 08-02-07, 04:25 PM	If you're playing a certain out of place penguin, I'll give you wings of flying, anything else and I'll consider the Winged template from Savage Species.
Nephlite 08-02-07, 05:02 PM	There is actually equipment called "Wings of Flying" You don't have to wait till Wish to get it. What he wants if more like Slotless Wings so you must double the cost. You need exp crafting from wish plus the 5k exp from wish. So craft is 108k for slotless/25 x2=8, 640 exp +5k=13, 840 exp for a free (gp wise) slotless wings of flying. Since he used Wish the Caster evel is 17 + soo harder to dispel too.
ToastedAmphibian 08-02-07, 06:04 PM	WISH FOR THE HALF-DRAGON TEMPLATE! A realy cruel DM might just give you gaseous form ability, with no way to turn it off..... Heh, that would be funny, no?
Frogmantis 08-02-07, 06:18 PM	well, a really cruel DM could ruin anything. depends on if they have a "DM vs. Player" mentality or not.
MareltEkiran 08-04-07, 02:36 AM	Just grant the player a pair of wings that sprout from his back. This will do several things. - Gain a fly speed of 60 ft., seeing as that's what half-celestials go by. However, face it... there's a healthy dose of magic behind those half-celestial wings. A human couldn't lift himself with a pair of non-magical wings like that. But seeing as he didn't get those wings from celestial ancestry, they'll need to be larger and more muscular to sustain him. Drop manouvreability to average. - Because these wings are fairly large and take up a lot of space, there's no way the character could effectively wear a cloak. He loses his cloak slot. - The flight is actually based on wingpower, meaning that a Wingbind spell would drop him. Also, if he gets paralyzed in flight, he would drop squarely out of the sky.
Phalo 08-04-07, 02:54 AM	I am kinda conflicted on the use of wish spells as a general rule. I think the outcome of the spell would be reliant on the creature granting the wish. Example if a demon was granting i would expect the wish to be granted but a cost. (The wings are ripped from the back of an unexpecting raptorian[side plot hook] or an imps wings are grafted on to you slowly contaminating you with evil.) if you really want to get nasty about it. the granter could change you into a raptorian or any number of flying creatures. humanoid or not. Just my two cents .
Dalthbar 08-04-07, 08:14 AM	If you're a high level arcane spellcaster, then the wish is granted "by magic" and there's no "granter" in the physical sense to screw with your intent. I believe the question stemmed from the "If I cast this spell myself" point of view.
Derren S. 08-04-07, 08:18 AM	A wish is itself is not intelligent or aligned. The creature uttering the wish should not matter except when the creature uses a different wording.
Illithid_Tentacles 08-04-07, 08:50 AM	A Cloak of the Bat (or WTFever they changed it to in 3.5, I only have the 3.0 books) sounds reasonable to me.
zorgling25 08-04-07, 11:19 AM	If you're a high level arcane spellcaster, then the wish is granted "by magic" and there's no "granter" in the physical sense to screw with your intent. I believe the question stemmed from the "If I cast this spell myself" point of view. Arguably, all magic is granted from a divine source in some way, and a wish is asking a divine source for the power.
jaelis 08-04-07, 11:22 AM	Arguably, all magic is granted from a divine source in some way, and a wish is asking a divine source for the power. Where do you get that idea?
ArcTan 08-04-07, 11:39 AM	Just grant the player a pair of wings that sprout from his back. This will do several things. - Gain a fly speed of 60 ft., seeing as that's what half-celestials go by. However, face it... there's a healthy dose of magic behind those half-celestial wings. A human couldn't lift himself with a pair of non-magical wings like that. But seeing as he didn't get those wings from celestial ancestry, they'll need to be larger and more muscular to sustain him. Drop manouvreability to average. - Because these wings are fairly large and take up a lot of space, there's no way the character could effectively wear a cloak. He loses his cloak slot. - The flight is actually based on wingpower, meaning that a Wingbind spell would drop him. Also, if he gets paralyzed in flight, he would drop squarely out of the sky. So you're giving her wings of flying permanently, that she can't take off. Why not just give her the item and let her use it, for the XP cost of the item?
ArcTan 08-04-07, 11:40 AM	If you're a high level arcane spellcaster, then the wish is granted "by magic" and there's no "granter" in the physical sense to screw with your intent. I believe the question stemmed from the "If I cast this spell myself" point of view. Effects that are too powerful for the wish spell automatically get "screwed with". Your mind isn't powerful enough to direct that much raw magic without making a mistake. The more power you try to call on, the more it becomes guaranteed that something will go horribly wrong. That's how I justify it, anyway.
ArcTan 08-04-07, 11:41 AM	Where do you get that idea? Forgotten Realms.
Phalo 08-04-07, 07:18 PM	Also the god of magic probably gets a say in most magical matters. I just feel wishes are bad business as a general rule.
Illithid_Tentacles 08-04-07, 07:36 PM	Forgotten Realms. FR != core D&D. Also... Effects that are too powerful for the wish spell automatically get "screwed with". Your mind isn't powerful enough to direct that much raw magic without making a mistake. The more power you try to call on, the more it becomes guaranteed that something will go horribly wrong. That's how I justify it, anyway. I like this.
Zarreth_Nessad 08-04-07, 08:13 PM	Even if you're basing your statement on the FR setting, Arcane Magic is still not granted from a divine source. Arcane Magic in FR is drawn from the Weave, which is controlled by a divine entity (Mystra) who can choose to deny a person the ability to draw from the Weave, but she is not granting the spells herself. Arcane Magic is the art of controlling and drawing from the Weave, not the Goddess. And if you have to make an alignment distinction, the Weave would be considered True Neutral in regards to how it would "grant" a wish.
BaseDeltaZero 08-04-07, 10:45 PM	I'd say this one is well within the power level of the Wish spell. It's not that overpowering for a 17th plus character, and could be done just as easily with Polymorph Any Object for no XP cost. Treat it like a permament, non-dispellable (but dispel magic should supress it) Fly effect Incidentally, unless you're playing in Forgotten Realms or another CS with equally interventionist dieties, arcane magic is not controlled by a deity. And the DM shouldn't be screwing with a Wish you cast, unless it's too powerful. Say, a wizard casting a Wish spell is altering reality to suit his desires, not saying something and hoping it works the way he wants - it performs exactly as it is intended. A ring of wishes on the other hand, tends to take the path of least resistance when granting wishes, and Wish granted by a creature works as a that creature desires.
ArcTan 08-04-07, 11:56 PM	I'd say this one is well within the power level of the Wish spell. It's not that overpowering for a 17th plus character, and could be done just as easily with Polymorph Any Object for no XP cost. Treat it like a permament, non-dispellable (but dispel magic should supress it) Fly effect In other words, you're making it a slotless magic item. The XP cost should be commensurate. Incidentally, unless you're playing in Forgotten Realms or another CS with equally interventionist dieties, arcane magic is not controlled by a deity. *shrug* Eberron denizens believe Aureon wrote the Laws of Magic. They could be wrong, but that's what they believe. It's not an uncommon fantasy concept. And the DM shouldn't be screwing with a Wish you cast, unless it's too powerful. Say, a wizard casting a Wish spell is altering reality to suit his desires, not saying something and hoping it works the way he wants - it performs exactly as it is intended. A ring of wishes on the other hand, tends to take the path of least resistance when granting wishes, and Wish granted by a creature works as a that creature desires. By RAW, a wish is a wish is a wish. A ring of three wishes, in particular, has no real difference from casting the wish spell, just like a ring of invisibility is like casting invisibility. The rule is always the same -- wishes don't get corrupted unless they exceed the bounds of the spell, and if they exceed the bounds of the spell they're guaranteed to "go wrong" in some way (if only by paring down the wish until it does fit the bounds of the spell).
Kouk 08-05-07, 03:14 AM	Hmm... if you give them a Cursed Ring of Three Wishes, or (Monkey Paw) that always tries to screw with the Wishes... Muahahahahaha!
Kurama Youko 08-05-07, 12:17 PM	Well it seems the census is, "Yes, we'd screw you over for something as mandane as flying at 17th level which such a spell could be cast by you." ... Seriously, I wouldn't have a problem with this. If you worded this correctly and I was in the "DM most not be neither for or against player creativity mode." I seriouly let you have it... If you worded so you could fly like a bird, then I'd grant you a pair of wings of a bird of equal size to you, same speed/maneuverability. If you just wished for a pair of wings that could allow you to fly, then you'd grow of pair of wings and have a fly speed equal to your land speed with average manuverability. If you wished to fly like Superman or Wonder Woman, LOL I'd give you a vision of yourself scouring the multiverse looking for said people. :) Once you found them, You'd start floating and flying about would soon find yourself back at 1st or 2nd lv with a LA+15 or 16, but atleast you'll have a insane fly speed approaching the speed of light. :)
HawkTheOne-Handed 08-05-07, 02:58 PM	Why not just treat it as a permanent Alter Self spell with one winged form as the target? Want to fly? You activate the power and turn into the winged form (based on your type). The DM determines the creature altered into.
TiwazTyrsfist 08-05-07, 03:36 PM	Depending on the level of messing with you. None: Permenantly under the effects of the Fly Spell Slight: Gives you a magic item that allows flight, such as wings of flying Moderate: You sprout wings, that let you fly as the fly spell. And now you have to have your armor altered. Mid-High: Changes your race to Raptorian (Races of the wild). Extreme Jerk: Sends you flying. You travel upwards at a 45-degree angle, reaching a height of one mile, then back down, landing with a splash 2 miles from your starting point. And you hit solid ground. You take 528d6 damage...
unundindur 08-05-07, 08:08 PM	The idea I had in mind was a non-dispellable pair of wings akin to an angel :) For example fly speed 60 feet with good maneuverability. For a lesser effect I would use a lesser spell, but I thought perhaps wish should be able to provide this kind of treat :)
DrStalker 08-05-07, 10:55 PM	If it came up in a game I was running: 1) Is that character having permanent flight going to be a problem for the game? If not: 2) Discuss with the player how they would like it implemented and reach an agreement. Given that most high level magic users seem quite capable of flying when needed I'd have no problem granting this as a wish effect.
locustechpriest 08-05-07, 11:30 PM	And you hit solid ground. You take 528d6 damage. Obviously not, because maximum falling damage is 20d6. (DMG p303) Also, for some reason you want him to fly 1 mile into the air? Gravity doesn't look like an inverted absolute value function. Rules for long jumping should be used, where the peak is 1/4 the traveled distance. (PHB p77)
DrStalker 08-05-07, 11:37 PM	Obviously not, because maximum falling damage is 20d6. (DMG p303) The extra 508d6 is obviously magic damage created by the effect of the wish spell. Wishes can do that, I suppose. /summon Djinn I wish... that you'd punch me really really really hard!
locustechpriest 08-05-07, 11:58 PM	Sure, now why would it do that? You wished to fly, not to hit the ground at an impossible rate of speed. Your wish, and thus its energy, is expended in throwing you into the air. Beyond that, 528d6 of damage is well beyond the power of a wish spell. It's damage should cap at 25d6 if emulating an 8th level effect. (DMG p36)
ArcTan 08-06-07, 12:57 AM	Well it seems the census is, "Yes, we'd screw you over for something as mandane as flying at 17th level which such a spell could be cast by you." I didn't say that. I said I would give them a magic item, wings of flying, for the appropriate XP cost. If you think not being given a slotless, undispellable magic item for free as a basic natural ability for no XP is being "screwed over", whatever.
locustechpriest 08-06-07, 02:06 AM	Treat it as an equivalent graft or ritual then, since sprouting permanent nonmagical wings seems to be outside the realm of conventional magic. Then estimate additional costs based on that. (I don't personally have any knowledge about the two, so this is something of a wild hypothesis.)
risner 08-06-07, 06:20 AM	The idea I had in mind was a non-dispellable pair of wings akin to an angel :) That is a minimum of one level adjust. (Flying Creature template from Savage Species is LA+2 and gives stat bonuses equal to 1 level adjust.) So if you allowed Wish to add a level adjust to your character, then it should be fine. In other words, giving them wings without the LA+1 along with them is not within a reasonable interpretation of what Wish should be doing. Since you don't care about RAW or RAI, then I don't know how to help you? What do you want? I have no idea. So most likely this whole post is not what you want. How about this: I wouldn't allow it, I would make the Wish fail, it is not a valid wish.
Kurama Youko 08-06-07, 10:10 AM	The idea I had in mind was a non-dispellable pair of wings akin to an angel :) For example fly speed 60 feet with good maneuverability. For a lesser effect I would use a lesser spell, but I thought perhaps wish should be able to provide this kind of treat :) If the Simbul can gain a Supernatural ability to turn into a Lightning Bolt with a wish, then im pretty sure you can gain a pair of angel wings to fly with. :)
BaseDeltaZero 08-06-07, 12:58 PM	In other words, you're making it a slotless magic item. The XP cost should be commensurate. *shrug* Eberron denizens believe Aureon wrote the Laws of Magic. They could be wrong, but that's what they believe. It's not an uncommon fantasy concept. Yes, he wrote the laws, but presumably he doesn't personally adjucate every spell ever cast. By RAW, a wish is a wish is a wish. A ring of three wishes, in particular, has no real difference from casting the wish spell, just like a ring of invisibility is like casting invisibility. The rule is always the same -- wishes don't get corrupted unless they exceed the bounds of the spell, and if they exceed the bounds of the spell they're guaranteed to "go wrong" in some way (if only by paring down the wish until it does fit the bounds of the spell). Yes, I agree that wishes beyond reasonable limits won't work as intend. However, the key difference between casting a wish yourself or from a ring is that if you do it yourself, you control the way the wish works, whereas if you use the ring, it operates based on what you say along the creator's parameters.
ArcTan 08-06-07, 02:53 PM	Yes, I agree that wishes beyond reasonable limits won't work as intend. However, the key difference between casting a wish yourself or from a ring is that if you do it yourself, you control the way the wish works, whereas if you use the ring, it operates based on what you say along the creator's parameters. Nothing in the rules ever says any such thing. The only person who ever defines the "parameters" of wish is the DM. You have the exact same amount of control over wish, by RAW, from a ring of three wishes as you do from your own casting of wish as you do from a scroll of wish as you do from a wish an Efreet or a Noble Djinn has just granted you. You make the wish, the DM decides if the effect is too powerful, and if it is then the effect is altered in some way. You have no greater control over this when you cast the spell than any other time. The caster's personality has no effect on this -- no rule says wish has any connection to your personality whatsoever. The spell does exactly what you want it to do, always, unless you try to get it to do too much, and then it always somehow goes wrong. I never liked the houseule that wishes from Evil sources always go wrong no matter what, which I see all the time on these boards. That's dumb. It just means that anyone who isn't an idiot will always refuse a wish when offered by an Efreet or Glabrezu, which means that ability becomes pointless. Faustian temptations can only function when the temptation is *real*.
Branto 08-07-07, 02:12 AM	I think that growing wings would present enough drawbacks that the flying wouldn't be too big a deal. For starters, someone mentioned the fact that you'd have to have all your clothing and armor altered to accomodate them. And while you COULD wear a cloak... you'd probably have to take it off before you try to actually USE the wings, or else risk getting tangled up and hitting the ground. For another thing, just having wings doesn't necessarily mean you know how to use them. Make the player invest some skill points or something to learn how to use their newfound appendages, and maybe limit their flight speed and maneuverability based on how high they raise their "flight skill". (This would be kind of like how an Afflicted Lycanthrope can invest skill points into learning to control their condition.) And finally, if all of that isn't enough... those wings might not weigh a lot, but their size could be a burden. You may choose to slap a -1 penalty to dodge AC on the winged player. Or have the wings effectively add to their armor penalty on certain skills. Oh.. and in town, all the NPC's will probably mistake the player for a celestial being of some sort (or a demon, if they got bat wings instead of bird wings) and act accordingly. Having mobs of peasants begging you for your celestial blessings all day would get really old, really fast. ;)
Branto 08-07-07, 02:14 AM	However, Fly is NOT on the list of spells that are legal to make permanent. The DM may allow other selected spells to be made permanent. Research-ing this possible application of a spell costs as much time and money as independently researching the seleected spell. If the DM has already determined that the application is not possible, the research automatically fails. Note that you never learn what is possible except by the success or failure of your research. The list of spells presented isn't a definitive "this is all permanency can do" list. It's a list of examples. The only specifically defined cases are that the ones on the list of spells you can cast on yourself can only be dispelled by someone higher level than you were when you cast it, and the spells on the "only permanent on objects and locations" list can't be made permanent on creatures. Edit: Oops. Didn't mean to make two seperate posts. I'd like to copy the text from this one in to the first and then delete this one, but I can't find the delete button...
ArcTan 08-07-07, 02:46 AM	The list of spells presented isn't a definitive "this is all permanency can do" list. It's a list of examples. Er, no. By default, it *is* all permanency can do. This is a major change from earlier editions, precisely because permanency can create so many problems. The DM can *choose* to add other spells to the list, but the DM does not have to. The DM can change any of the rules -- that doesn't change what they are by default. The only specifically defined cases are that the ones on the list of spells you can cast on yourself can only be dispelled by someone higher level than you were when you cast it, and the spells on the "only permanent on objects and locations" list can't be made permanent on creatures. That's not true. All the lists are supposed to be exhaustive. Can you point me to the text that makes you think they aren't?
ArcTan 08-07-07, 02:48 AM	I still don't see why you can't charge the XP for wings of flying, and make the wings take up a cloak slot, and make it so you can take them off and put them back on. It's simple, creates no hassle, and is basically what the player wants, isn't it?
unundindur 08-07-07, 06:23 AM	That is a minimum of one level adjust. (Flying Creature template from Savage Species is LA+2 and gives stat bonuses equal to 1 level adjust.) So if you allowed Wish to add a level adjust to your character, then it should be fine. In other words, giving them wings without the LA+1 along with them is not within a reasonable interpretation of what Wish should be doing. Since you don't care about RAW or RAI, then I don't know how to help you? What do you want? I have no idea. So most likely this whole post is not what you want. How about this: I wouldn't allow it, I would make the Wish fail, it is not a valid wish. What I meant by not RAM/RAI was personal oppinions, if you as GMs and Players would see this as too powerful if you don't look at the rules, but actual gameplay, and if 5000XP is a reasonable price to pay for this. The level adjustment is just about what I mean. By the rules you would take this, but I thought and is inclined to still think that at level 17 those wings won't help you at all enough to warrant a level adjustment, it gets more like a fluff ability with some numeric help (non-dispellable), that I thought could be worth about 5000XP. But all suggestions are appreciated :)
risner 08-07-07, 10:31 AM	inclined to still think that at level 17 those wings won't help you at all enough to warrant a level adjustment, it gets more like a fluff ability with some numeric help (non-dispellable), that I thought could be worth about 5000XP. If you wished for a flying item (Winged Boots or some such), then the XP cost would be more since the item costs more than 25,000 gp. If you allow the wish to provide wings (Ex ability) for 5,000 xp and not cost a level adjust, you have in effect granted an item that costs more than 25,000 gp with additional abilities (Ex ability and not dispellable.) Keep that point in mind while you are thinking on your question.
ArcTan 08-07-07, 03:06 PM	If you wished for a flying item (Winged Boots or some such), then the XP cost would be more since the item costs more than 25,000 gp. If you allow the wish to provide wings (Ex ability) for 5,000 xp and not cost a level adjust, you have in effect granted an item that costs more than 25,000 gp with additional abilities (Ex ability and not dispellable.) Keep that point in mind while you are thinking on your question. You misinterpreted the rules. You have a 25,000 GP cap for wishing for mundane items, for free (i.e. you can just say "I wish for 25,000 gold pieces!" and get them, no XP cost). There's no cap for magic items. All magic items cost their equivalent XP cost, no matter how cheap or how expensive. ("I wish for a cure light wounds potion!" requires you to pay a very small XP cost for the cure light wounds potion.) I would say that most things that have a truly permanent effect -- things you want to keep forever, not a spell you want to cast now -- should be given as magic items, and charge the XP cost. (If you want it built into your body, treat it like a graft -- it's in your body but it's still a magic item.)
Dwarven_Jihad 08-07-07, 06:51 PM	Hello I have a tiny question. I would just like to aks what you think about getting angelwings that allow you to fly with a wish spell. I personally think the "Extreme Jerkism" interpretation would be to have the character's deity simply strike him dead on the spot, haul his soul off to the heavens and grant him said angel wings. And then prevent him from ever being resurrected (no turning down gifts from your deity, eh? It's bad form) :)
Zarreth_Nessad 08-07-07, 07:44 PM	Or just grant him the fly spell for its normal duration and still have him pay the 5000 xp from using a 'Wish' spell. Depends on how he words it.
TheAnthroDM 08-07-07, 08:23 PM	Forgotten Realms. AKA One of the single worst settings of all time.(Non negotiable, it sucks) [Yes I DID go there.] Anyways, no, magic does not stem from a divine source unless you play FR(in which case, you fail at DnD) or play Dragonlance(In which case, DnD fails at you)
Branto 08-07-07, 08:36 PM	Er, no. By default, it *is* all permanency can do. That's not true. All the lists are supposed to be exhaustive. Can you point me to the text that makes you think they aren't? The DM may allow other selected spells to be made permanent. Research-ing this possible application of a spell costs as much time and money as independently researching the seleected spell. If the DM has already determined that the application is not possible, the research automatically fails. Note that you never learn what is possible except by the success or failure of your research. Yeah. The part in the manual that specifically suggests that your DM can allow other spells to be Permanized, and that then tells you specifically how to go about researching it is what makes me "think" the list isn't exhaustive. ;)
ArcTan 08-07-07, 10:52 PM	Yeah. The part in the manual that specifically suggests that your DM can allow other spells to be Permanized, and that then tells you specifically how to go about researching it is what makes me "think" the list isn't exhaustive. ;) Actually, no, that's proof they *are* exhaustive. The DM can add things to the list, sure. The DM can add anything to anything. He can make up new spells, make up new feats, make up new classes. However, no one has any right *by default* to assume that a spell is available for permanency, any more than you can assume *by default* that any particular magic item you want to make that isn't in the books exists. This goes equally for every list in permanency, including the "Personal only" list. If you read the DMG, it contains rules for researching completely new spells based on no other existing spell at all -- if your DM allows it. That doesn't mean you can bring up the level 1 I win the game spell, which automatically gives you 2 billion gold pieces' worth of magical gear and makes you a DR 21+ overdeity. The rules say it *can* exist if the DM allows it to, but by default, it does *not* exist.
locustechpriest 08-07-07, 11:35 PM	@ArcTan, for the purposes of this post, the DM allowing a Wish spell to add a Permanency effect to Fly is a valid solution to the presented problem. Deriding a person for saying that you CAN do something that the book says you CAN do is unethical. He isn't assuming that anyone can cast permanency on the spell in everyone's world, he is suggesting that the DM CAN allow it, whether by default, by research, or by a Wish spell within his own campaign. Coincidentally, that is what the OP asks for: valid solutions.
Zarreth_Nessad 08-13-07, 02:53 AM	I believe the point ArcTan was making was that it would have to be researched and then approved by the DM. This is a valid solution using RAW. Otherwise, by RAW, the Permanency spell is expressly limited as far as spells in the Players Handbook go. By default, as ArcTan put it, the only spells that can be used in conjunction with Permanency are those that are listed in the PHB and those in splat books specifically detailing that they can be used with it (and providing an update for those spells with Permanency). Otherwise, research is required, and then only successful with DM approval. At DM discretion, a Wish spell could bypass the research required. As far as derision goes, as far as I can tell he isn't deriding anyone, nor stating anything untrue.
ArcTan 08-13-07, 02:51 PM	All I mean is that if you the DM want to give him the ability to fly, permanently, go ahead. Different people will tell you different ways to do it based on how "consistent with the rules" it is. Personally, I don't think it's consistent with the rules to make this wish work like permanency fly, because permanency fly does not *exist* in the rules. Wings of flying *do* exist in the rules, so the *most* consistent way to do it is to give the player wings of flying. That's all. The fact that both permanency and fly exist in the rules doesn't make applying permanency to fly consistent with the rules. It's not any *more* (or any less) consistent than making up a new spell called "permanent flight".
Candin 08-13-07, 03:16 PM	Anything outside of the suggested uses of Wish is up to a DM interpretation, so technically anything could be possible. That being said, I don't know why every DM on the planet (or, at least, every DM I've met) looks at Wish as an opportunity to screw people over. There isn't anything sinister about flying. By 17th level, flying is well within the capabilities of the party (my sorcerer is able to fly all the adventuring day at 11th level with a single 5th level spell), so there isn't that much of a reason for something like this not to happen. I would give it to you. You get your wings like you want, decent move speed (40 or 60, probably 60) with whatever maneuverability is consistent with medium creatures that have wings. Wouldn't even bother giving you a ring of flying, or a cloak, or any other item that could let you fly, because you apparently want your character to have wings, so why not let you have them? I would be seriously ****** if I used a wish spell to get wings and got something I could find on a short shopping spree.
the black knight 08-13-07, 03:28 PM	Fly as per the spell. Once per day. Simple and reasonable. No bait and switch or gotcha from sadistic DMs (who need their own therapy thread, IMHO).
ArcTan 08-13-07, 03:49 PM	Fly 1/day should still probably be an item, not an innate ability. It's also a great deal less powerful than my wings of flying suggestion, so I don't know why you're calling wings of flying a "bait and switch".
ArcTan 08-13-07, 03:51 PM	I would give it to you. You get your wings like you want, decent move speed (40 or 60, probably 60) with whatever maneuverability is consistent with medium creatures that have wings. Wouldn't even bother giving you a ring of flying, or a cloak, or any other item that could let you fly, because you apparently want your character to have wings, so why not let you have them? Wings of flying, as the name implies, *are* wings. They're just wings you can take off. You don't ever have to take them off if you don't want to. I would be seriously ****** if I used a wish spell to get wings and got something I could find on a short shopping spree. It's a 54,000 GP item. It's hardly a mundane thing you could find just lying around.
ArcTan 08-13-07, 03:53 PM	Lemme also make it really clear: I do think it's unbalanced for wish to give you everything a magic item would give you without charging you the XP to make a magic item, because then there's never a single reason, ever, to wish for a magic item. (You would *always* say "I wish I just naturally had a +8 bonus to my natural armor" rather than wishing for an amulet of natural armor, because it doesn't have an XP cost.) I wouldn't say that you *can't* get magic-item-like permanent effects without the actual item involved. I would say that to do so you still have to pay XP, just like you always have to sacrifice XP to get *anything* truly permanent. (It costs XP, for instance, to "craft" a Contingent Spell using the Craft Contingent Spell feat.) I do consider that an important balancing factor in using wish.
Fireclave 08-13-07, 04:37 PM	I agree with ArcTan. If a player wants permanent, non-magical, always on flight from a wish spell, he should be expected to pay for it. Not just for the balancing factor of simply greeting almost free, permanent flight. But also for precedence. If a player can simply drop a wish spell to get permanet flight instead of playing the normal 54,000gp and 2160 xp cost and 54 days to create, what else can he get for a wish? Greater Fortification? Improved Energy Immunity? Spell Resistance? Spell-like abilities? The abilities of any maic item? However, I can respect wanting to get flight naturally, without having to rely on the crutches that are magic items. Grafts are perfect for this sense they grant the same or similiar benefits of a magic item, follow the rules for the creation of magic items (time, gp, xp), but are not magic items themselves. So if a player wanted to wish for "natural" flight, I would rule that the wish would bestow a graft, but he would still have to pay the normal xp cost (specifically 5000xp + twice the xp needed to craft the item, as normal).