Assassin's death attack and time stop [Archive] - Wizards Community

Assassin's death attack and time stop [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Adan Northgan
12-17-05, 12:45 PM A Assassin that cast the spell time stop can use the rounds of the spell to study her it target and to make the death attack?
Roren
12-17-05, 12:49 PM Under the spell Time Stop, you cannot interact with anyone else in combat. You can however do anything else, such as a buff or two or get the right weapon for the job.
Purkake
12-17-05, 12:59 PM You can't MAKE the attack but you can study the target for 3 rounds.
psly4mne
12-17-05, 01:00 PM I don't think looking at someone counts as interacting any more than thinking about them does.
Time Stop only has a 75% chance of giving you the three rounds you need, but it will still shorten the time if you get unlucky.
High Octane
12-17-05, 09:13 PM In theory, as stated above, you could study, but not make the attack. However the situation wont come up very often since assassins are not core casters at all and time stop is a 9th level arcane spell.
Kyuketsukiouji
12-17-05, 09:27 PM Yes, that works just fine, as long as you attack after the Timestop wears off.

Very interesting combination, I have to say. I might just yank it.
Tasmar
12-17-05, 09:59 PM In theory, as stated above, you could study, but not make the attack. However the situation wont come up very often since assassins are not core casters at all and time stop is a 9th level arcane spell.

Unless you only dip into assassin its not too far out of reach for a sublime chord or a sneaky wizard, but then the death attack DC will be quite weak(except intelligence could be a major factor). The only way to get both and be strong at the DA i see is Gestalt. Which is overpowered in itself.
runestar
12-17-05, 10:07 PM And there's always UMD...
smrtgmp
12-17-05, 10:43 PM it would work well with a psychic assassin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) with temporal acceleration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/temporalAcceleration.htm)
Adan Northgan
12-18-05, 05:46 PM Unless you only dip into assassin its not too far out of reach for a sublime chord or a sneaky wizard, but then the death attack DC will be quite weak(except intelligence could be a major factor). The only way to get both and be strong at the DA i see is Gestalt. Which is overpowered in itself.

use magic device and cast of a scroll .
and about the low dc.
a rogue3/figther2/T. Shadowlord 6/ Assassin 9 + ability focus + assassin's
dagger+ INT32
DC 10+15+11+2+1= 39
do you still find low DC? it is more than a spell of the 9 lvl can reach
Jerrythehun
12-18-05, 10:35 PM Maybe I am missing something...Int 32? So, your fighter\rogue took an 18 Int, raised it to the exclusion of everything else....that is another + 5, then 36,000 for a Headband of Int +6, then +3 Inherent bonus from a Tome for 82,500.

Wow, my Wizard is jealous.
smrtgmp
12-19-05, 06:44 AM Maybe I am missing somethingApparently so. You have to look past the rogue/fighter to the assassin. Since the death attack DC is intelligence based, assassins often put everything they can into it.
Bukowski
12-19-05, 09:48 AM The one problem I see is that the opponent better not detect you casting the Time Stop. Even if he's flat-footed when you make the death attack, won't he be aware enough that you're threatening him before time is stopped to essentially negate the studying?

I like the combo a lot, I was just curious what people thought considering the text for the Assassin PrC states the studying has to be done on an opponent that isn't aware of being threatened.
runestar
12-19-05, 09:57 PM Does it matter? Since he is effectively "frozen" when you cast time stop, you can continue to study him. :confused:
spectralphoenix
12-19-05, 11:04 PM A multiclassed Wizard 9/ Rogue 1/assassin 10 could do it. With Practiced Spellcasting, the character's CL is 13, meaning he only needs a 5 to make the caster level check to activate a scroll.
Jerrythehun
12-19-05, 11:33 PM Apparently so. You have to look past the rogue/fighter to the assassin. Since the death attack DC is intelligence based, assassins often put everything they can into it.

Well, I guess my only point is that such a character would have a difficult time surviving in a standard game.

With a 28 point stat buy, your 18 Int, 12 in another stat, 10 in everything else fighter (or rogue) would be great at Search and Knowledge(Local) but would be really terrible at fighting, opening locks, dodging traps, stealth, all social skill interactions, saving throws, hit points, armor class, appraising... well, just about everything.

If such a character was my fellow party member, I would enquire as to what this character would do to earn a share of treasure. I can hire a Str 12 Warrior for 3 silver a day who can do everything this character can do, except kick butt at Trivial Pursuit.

I understand the mechanics of the build. But this character would be dead long before reaching the PrCs it is geared towards. Heck, even at 20th level, this gimp's awful Saves, HP, AC, everything else would make its doom even quicker than at low levels.
smrtgmp
12-20-05, 01:33 AM With a 28 point stat buy, your 18 Int, 12 in another stat, 10 in everything else fighter (or rogue) would be great at Search and Knowledge(Local) but would be really terrible at fighting, opening locks, dodging traps, stealth, all social skill interactions, saving throws, hit points, armor class, appraising... well, just about everything. Mind explaining to me how an Int heavy character is going to be bad at skills? He'll have an assload of points to spend on them. It doesnt matter if he doesnt have high stat mods if he has a ton of ranks and synergy bonuses. Besides, most skills are int based, so his int will carry a lot of weight in that department.

If such a character was my fellow party member, I would enquire as to what this character would do to earn a share of treasure. I can hire a Str 12 Warrior for 3 silver a day who can do everything this character can do, except kick butt at Trivial Pursuit.I imagine he would be doing everything a skill monkey normally does. And once he gets that death attack, he'll be highly useful in any situation that requires killing descreetly. He'll also make a great mage killer, given that the DC of the death attack will be higher than your average wizard can make with any sort of regularity.

I understand the mechanics of the build. But this character would be dead long before reaching the PrCs it is geared towards. Heck, even at 20th level, this gimp's awful Saves, HP, AC, everything else would make its doom even quicker than at low levels.I dont think you do understand the mechanics of the build. Plenty of character combos have it rough at low levels. This is hardly alone in that regard (though I would have taken levels of swashbuckler instead of fighter to add the int to damage). At 20th level, stat boosting items and the right vest or cloak can give you acceptable saves. When people dont see you coming it doesnt matter if you dont have a great AC, especially if they're dead before they have the chance to respond. Besides, HP and AC alone dont make for a formiddable opponent. There are plenty of ways around those.

At 20th level this assassin will be able to dimension door next to an opponent and make a full attack in the same round (yeah shadowlord), all of which will be sneak attacks. If you studied your opponent, the first will also be a death attack. You can dish out enough damage to kill almost anything with that, assuming they survive your death attack.

edit: And honestly, I dont think you can call a 28 point buy a "standard game."
Terraneaux
12-20-05, 04:31 AM Really, I have played a LOT of rogues, and basially once you pass level 5 your physical stats start not mattering that much. The fact that a 1st level human rogue has 52 skill points is just ridiculous, and a great boon to any character so endowed. Your skill ranks start eclipsing your physical ability scores at about this point and teh 18 int starts to really shine. Also a lot of dms in my area make int gains retroactive for skill points which makes it even more attractive.
Gnarl
12-20-05, 07:50 AM A multiclassed Wizard 9/ Rogue 1/assassin 10 could do it. With Practiced Spellcasting, the character's CL is 13, meaning he only needs a 5 to make the caster level check to activate a scroll.

With Arcane Mastery, you only need to be wizard 7 since it's a caster level check.
Adan Northgan
12-20-05, 09:01 AM Maybe I am missing something...Int 32? So, your fighter\rogue took an 18 Int, raised it to the exclusion of everything else....that is another + 5, then 36,000 for a Headband of Int +6, then +3 Inherent bonus from a Tome for 82,500.

Wow, my Wizard is jealous.
in level 20
32 points buy
str 10
dex 16
con 14
int 16 + 6 enhacement+ 5 inerent + 5 point = 32
wis 10
cha 10
I caught figther levels for T. Shadowlord's requirements, (dodge, Mobility)
the focus is Death attack! one shot one kill
Bukowski
12-20-05, 10:17 AM Does it matter? Since he is effectively "frozen" when you cast time stop, you can continue to study him. :confused:

"Frozen" by timestop does not equal unaware that someone is there. If the target is aware that he is being threatened then the death attack studying cannot take place. Even if you adjudicate the target is "unaware" while the timestop is in effect, if he was made aware of the casting before the spell took effect he'd be aware of the threat when the spell ends and the Asn can attack... and you can't study/death attack an aware target.

Just playing devil's advocate with RAW.
Kyuketsukiouji
12-20-05, 12:18 PM I wouldn't allow the timestop to waive the awareness clause either. If your target was aware of you before the timestop, he won't become "unaware" of you just because you manage to compress your study time.
Jerrythehun
12-20-05, 09:47 PM We might need a new thread on the Int 32 issue and my disdain for it. :)
Reinhart
12-20-05, 10:13 PM Except that you can totally find a place to hide during timestop. Then just jump out again and death attack him. They'll just notice the assassin vanish from sight in a blur and the next thing they know he's jumping out from behind the chair in the other side of the room.
Bukowski
12-22-05, 09:27 AM Except that you can totally find a place to hide during timestop. Then just jump out again and death attack him. They'll just notice the assassin vanish from sight in a blur and the next thing they know he's jumping out from behind the chair in the other side of the room.

Wrong. If the assassin hides after casting, the target is still aware of a threat. The text for an Asn's death attack does not state he has to see the target. Death attack is meant to catch a victim that does not know someone is trying to attack them.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Adan Northgan 12-17-05, 12:45 PM	A Assassin that cast the spell time stop can use the rounds of the spell to study her it target and to make the death attack?
Roren 12-17-05, 12:49 PM	Under the spell Time Stop, you cannot interact with anyone else in combat. You can however do anything else, such as a buff or two or get the right weapon for the job.
Purkake 12-17-05, 12:59 PM	You can't MAKE the attack but you can study the target for 3 rounds.
psly4mne 12-17-05, 01:00 PM	I don't think looking at someone counts as interacting any more than thinking about them does. Time Stop only has a 75% chance of giving you the three rounds you need, but it will still shorten the time if you get unlucky.
High Octane 12-17-05, 09:13 PM	In theory, as stated above, you could study, but not make the attack. However the situation wont come up very often since assassins are not core casters at all and time stop is a 9th level arcane spell.
Kyuketsukiouji 12-17-05, 09:27 PM	Yes, that works just fine, as long as you attack after the Timestop wears off. Very interesting combination, I have to say. I might just yank it.
Tasmar 12-17-05, 09:59 PM	In theory, as stated above, you could study, but not make the attack. However the situation wont come up very often since assassins are not core casters at all and time stop is a 9th level arcane spell. Unless you only dip into assassin its not too far out of reach for a sublime chord or a sneaky wizard, but then the death attack DC will be quite weak(except intelligence could be a major factor). The only way to get both and be strong at the DA i see is Gestalt. Which is overpowered in itself.
runestar 12-17-05, 10:07 PM	And there's always UMD...
smrtgmp 12-17-05, 10:43 PM	it would work well with a psychic assassin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) with temporal acceleration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/temporalAcceleration.htm)
Adan Northgan 12-18-05, 05:46 PM	Unless you only dip into assassin its not too far out of reach for a sublime chord or a sneaky wizard, but then the death attack DC will be quite weak(except intelligence could be a major factor). The only way to get both and be strong at the DA i see is Gestalt. Which is overpowered in itself. use magic device and cast of a scroll . and about the low dc. a rogue3/figther2/T. Shadowlord 6/ Assassin 9 + ability focus + assassin's dagger+ INT32 DC 10+15+11+2+1= 39 do you still find low DC? it is more than a spell of the 9 lvl can reach
Jerrythehun 12-18-05, 10:35 PM	Maybe I am missing something...Int 32? So, your fighter\rogue took an 18 Int, raised it to the exclusion of everything else....that is another + 5, then 36,000 for a Headband of Int +6, then +3 Inherent bonus from a Tome for 82,500. Wow, my Wizard is jealous.
smrtgmp 12-19-05, 06:44 AM	Maybe I am missing somethingApparently so. You have to look past the rogue/fighter to the assassin. Since the death attack DC is intelligence based, assassins often put everything they can into it.
Bukowski 12-19-05, 09:48 AM	The one problem I see is that the opponent better not detect you casting the Time Stop. Even if he's flat-footed when you make the death attack, won't he be aware enough that you're threatening him before time is stopped to essentially negate the studying? I like the combo a lot, I was just curious what people thought considering the text for the Assassin PrC states the studying has to be done on an opponent that isn't aware of being threatened.
runestar 12-19-05, 09:57 PM	Does it matter? Since he is effectively "frozen" when you cast time stop, you can continue to study him. :confused:
spectralphoenix 12-19-05, 11:04 PM	A multiclassed Wizard 9/ Rogue 1/assassin 10 could do it. With Practiced Spellcasting, the character's CL is 13, meaning he only needs a 5 to make the caster level check to activate a scroll.
Jerrythehun 12-19-05, 11:33 PM	Apparently so. You have to look past the rogue/fighter to the assassin. Since the death attack DC is intelligence based, assassins often put everything they can into it. Well, I guess my only point is that such a character would have a difficult time surviving in a standard game. With a 28 point stat buy, your 18 Int, 12 in another stat, 10 in everything else fighter (or rogue) would be great at Search and Knowledge(Local) but would be really terrible at fighting, opening locks, dodging traps, stealth, all social skill interactions, saving throws, hit points, armor class, appraising... well, just about everything. If such a character was my fellow party member, I would enquire as to what this character would do to earn a share of treasure. I can hire a Str 12 Warrior for 3 silver a day who can do everything this character can do, except kick butt at Trivial Pursuit. I understand the mechanics of the build. But this character would be dead long before reaching the PrCs it is geared towards. Heck, even at 20th level, this gimp's awful Saves, HP, AC, everything else would make its doom even quicker than at low levels.
smrtgmp 12-20-05, 01:33 AM	With a 28 point stat buy, your 18 Int, 12 in another stat, 10 in everything else fighter (or rogue) would be great at Search and Knowledge(Local) but would be really terrible at fighting, opening locks, dodging traps, stealth, all social skill interactions, saving throws, hit points, armor class, appraising... well, just about everything. Mind explaining to me how an Int heavy character is going to be bad at skills? He'll have an assload of points to spend on them. It doesnt matter if he doesnt have high stat mods if he has a ton of ranks and synergy bonuses. Besides, most skills are int based, so his int will carry a lot of weight in that department. If such a character was my fellow party member, I would enquire as to what this character would do to earn a share of treasure. I can hire a Str 12 Warrior for 3 silver a day who can do everything this character can do, except kick butt at Trivial Pursuit.I imagine he would be doing everything a skill monkey normally does. And once he gets that death attack, he'll be highly useful in any situation that requires killing descreetly. He'll also make a great mage killer, given that the DC of the death attack will be higher than your average wizard can make with any sort of regularity. I understand the mechanics of the build. But this character would be dead long before reaching the PrCs it is geared towards. Heck, even at 20th level, this gimp's awful Saves, HP, AC, everything else would make its doom even quicker than at low levels.I dont think you do understand the mechanics of the build. Plenty of character combos have it rough at low levels. This is hardly alone in that regard (though I would have taken levels of swashbuckler instead of fighter to add the int to damage). At 20th level, stat boosting items and the right vest or cloak can give you acceptable saves. When people dont see you coming it doesnt matter if you dont have a great AC, especially if they're dead before they have the chance to respond. Besides, HP and AC alone dont make for a formiddable opponent. There are plenty of ways around those. At 20th level this assassin will be able to dimension door next to an opponent and make a full attack in the same round (yeah shadowlord), all of which will be sneak attacks. If you studied your opponent, the first will also be a death attack. You can dish out enough damage to kill almost anything with that, assuming they survive your death attack. edit: And honestly, I dont think you can call a 28 point buy a "standard game."
Terraneaux 12-20-05, 04:31 AM	Really, I have played a LOT of rogues, and basially once you pass level 5 your physical stats start not mattering that much. The fact that a 1st level human rogue has 52 skill points is just ridiculous, and a great boon to any character so endowed. Your skill ranks start eclipsing your physical ability scores at about this point and teh 18 int starts to really shine. Also a lot of dms in my area make int gains retroactive for skill points which makes it even more attractive.
Gnarl 12-20-05, 07:50 AM	A multiclassed Wizard 9/ Rogue 1/assassin 10 could do it. With Practiced Spellcasting, the character's CL is 13, meaning he only needs a 5 to make the caster level check to activate a scroll. With Arcane Mastery, you only need to be wizard 7 since it's a caster level check.
Adan Northgan 12-20-05, 09:01 AM	Maybe I am missing something...Int 32? So, your fighter\rogue took an 18 Int, raised it to the exclusion of everything else....that is another + 5, then 36,000 for a Headband of Int +6, then +3 Inherent bonus from a Tome for 82,500. Wow, my Wizard is jealous. in level 20 32 points buy str 10 dex 16 con 14 int 16 + 6 enhacement+ 5 inerent + 5 point = 32 wis 10 cha 10 I caught figther levels for T. Shadowlord's requirements, (dodge, Mobility) the focus is Death attack! one shot one kill
Bukowski 12-20-05, 10:17 AM	Does it matter? Since he is effectively "frozen" when you cast time stop, you can continue to study him. :confused: "Frozen" by timestop does not equal unaware that someone is there. If the target is aware that he is being threatened then the death attack studying cannot take place. Even if you adjudicate the target is "unaware" while the timestop is in effect, if he was made aware of the casting before the spell took effect he'd be aware of the threat when the spell ends and the Asn can attack... and you can't study/death attack an aware target. Just playing devil's advocate with RAW.
Kyuketsukiouji 12-20-05, 12:18 PM	I wouldn't allow the timestop to waive the awareness clause either. If your target was aware of you before the timestop, he won't become "unaware" of you just because you manage to compress your study time.
Jerrythehun 12-20-05, 09:47 PM	We might need a new thread on the Int 32 issue and my disdain for it. :)
Reinhart 12-20-05, 10:13 PM	Except that you can totally find a place to hide during timestop. Then just jump out again and death attack him. They'll just notice the assassin vanish from sight in a blur and the next thing they know he's jumping out from behind the chair in the other side of the room.
Bukowski 12-22-05, 09:27 AM	Except that you can totally find a place to hide during timestop. Then just jump out again and death attack him. They'll just notice the assassin vanish from sight in a blur and the next thing they know he's jumping out from behind the chair in the other side of the room. Wrong. If the assassin hides after casting, the target is still aware of a threat. The text for an Asn's death attack does not state he has to see the target. Death attack is meant to catch a victim that does not know someone is trying to attack them.