Assassin: what does 'cast as a bard' mean? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Assassin: what does 'cast as a bard' mean? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Cherry Darkspawn
09-25-05, 07:31 AM Hiho,

Sorry if this has been addressed before, but the seach engine seems to have issues...

Could someone clarify exactly what it means that an Assassin casts spells "just as a bard does"?

Spontaneous Caster? (Who wants to juggle a spellbook when you're dangling from a rope, inverted?);
Spells must have a verbal component? (Might make things tricky when 'working');
No arcane penalty for casting in Light armour? (I like my figure-hugging leathers!);

Any/all of the above, or something that I've missed?

Hugs,
Cherry.
KmartKommando
09-25-05, 07:49 AM All of the above.
In the bard's spell section, it says that all bard spells have verbal components.
However, assassins aren't casting bard spells, they are casting assassin spells; so no mandatory loud spells. :D
that would be just stupid anyway

that puts assassins casting: spontaneously, in light armor w/ no spell failure, from a small set of known spells.

happy hunting...
Ske
09-25-05, 07:52 AM Though the 'small set of known spells' isn't so small if you have enough books.
runestar
09-25-05, 12:00 PM Be prepared to have to sing whenever you cast an assassin spell :cool: Though that kinda takes away from their sneakiness.....
Wyrd Bearer
09-25-05, 12:42 PM Be prepared to have to sing whenever you cast an assassin spell :cool: Though that kinda takes away from their sneakiness.....runestar, could you please explain why you say that? The assassin casts "as a bard," which I interpret as meaning they cast spells in light armour just "as a bard." Since they cast spells from the assassin list and not the bard list, they don't have that singing verbal component. This is my interpretation.

Now, I can see where you are coming from if you take the "as a bard" to the extreme meaning an assassin has to sing to cast spells just "as a bard" would. But, for a moment at least, can we stop and think that the "as a bard" cluase was just the original writer's way of saying that the assassin can cast in light armour without asf in less words? Granted, they did not do the same when the hexblade was published, perhaps this was to avoid any confusion or maybe they did intend for the assassin to be entirely incapable of being sneaky while casting spells.

If we were to go into extreme nitpickiness, then the assassin could not even cast the spell poison without a divine focus because it is a spell only found on the cleric and druid list. This would be the same for all the other spells that are taken from the divine list.

Now, as an appeal to your common sense, which interpretation do you think is the one intended for the assassin? The singing assassin who is incapable of stealth when employing magic because she's singing (ignoring the fact that a spell with any verbal components can't really be whispered in the first place) or an assassin that is actually stealthy to a certain degree?
Vestigial_Thumb
09-25-05, 03:16 PM Making assassin spells have verbal components is probably the biggest, most disgusting nerf I've ever heard of. Screw RAW if it says otherwise.
Vaalingrade Ashland
09-25-05, 04:42 PM Making assassin spells have verbal components is probably the biggest, most disgusting nerf I've ever heard of. Screw RAW if it says otherwise.
A verbal component is not screaming the name of the spell. To spider climb, the assassin may simply whisper the verbal component.
green_yawgmoth
09-25-05, 05:06 PM Methinks Wyrd needs to find a dictionary and look up the word "joke". ;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
bolgar
09-25-05, 05:21 PM A verbal component is not screaming the name of the spell. To spider climb, the assassin may simply whisper the verbal component.

The rules disagree:
To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice.

So no "whispering" spell components...
Wyrd Bearer
09-25-05, 05:55 PM Methinks Wyrd needs to find a dictionary and look up the word "joke". ;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif

Nah, I know what a joke is. I've just seriously seen people in the past trying to argue that assassins MUST sing and I don't remember if runestar is one of those adamant people (I give her/him the benefit of the doubt though and I don't really expect a reply).
green_yawgmoth
09-25-05, 07:33 PM That makes me sad in the pants, people thinking that a PrC based around silent killing would need to sing to cast their spells.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Super_Demolition_Christ
09-25-05, 08:01 PM That makes me sad in the pants, people thinking that a PrC based around silent killing would need to sing to cast their spells.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif

"After weeks of deliberation, you have yet to hear a compelling argument for not beating most of the people you've ever met to within an inch of their lives."
Beamup
09-25-05, 09:28 PM So no "whispering" spell components...
Strictly speaking, that's not what it says. One could remain completely silent while casting a spell with a verbal component without violating that rule.

Notice that it does not say you must speak in a strong voice, but rather that you must be able to. Nowhere is it ever stated how audible verbal components are. It's one of those things that's completely DM discretion since there is no rule covering it.

I'd also point out that, in a campaign where Assassins must speak verbal components loudly, a Lesser Silent Metamagic Rod is well worth their while. (Optionally a medium Rod for higher-level Assassins.)
Wyrd Bearer
09-25-05, 10:33 PM Strictly speaking, that's not what it says. One could remain completely silent while casting a spell with a verbal component without violating that rule.

Notice that it does not say you must speak in a strong voice, but rather that you must be able to. Nowhere is it ever stated how audible verbal components are. It's one of those things that's completely DM discretion since there is no rule covering it.

I'd also point out that, in a campaign where Assassins must speak verbal components loudly, a Lesser Silent Metamagic Rod is well worth their while. (Optionally a medium Rod for higher-level Assassins.)

True... about the just being able to do the verbal components... in a twisted sort of way.

But I agree whole heartedly on the metamagic rods of silence. Very useful. Optionally, one could always make do with the new use for slight of hand checks presented in Races of Stone where you make a SoH check opposed by any observers Spot checks to see if you successfully whisper the verbal components and just twiddle your thumbs in your sleeves for the somatic without them noticing.
runestar
09-25-05, 11:33 PM First off, assassins cast spells spontaneously, so no spellbooks are involved. General consensus allows assassins to cast in light armour, so no arguments there. Now to the crux of the problem....

Common sense is nice when a houserule needs to be formulated, just as people can argue till they are blue in the face as to why assassin spells should not have verbal components, but admitably, the desc of "casts as a bard" is ambiguous and vague at best, and common sense has no corellation with RAW whatsoever, however much you wish it to be. Plus, it does not change the fact that quite a number of assassin spells have verbal components, which leaves us with our sole gripe - silent spell.

I have never come across an assassin who has burnt a feat slot on silent spell, though I suppose it could be a valid choice. Given an assassin's limited spell progression, metamagicking spells does not really seem that economical. But still, if it rocks your boat....Go with what your dm rules. My group has interpreted that "cast as a bard" means unbypassable verbal components, but my dm ruled that still spell could be used on them. Still, no one has played an assassin or taken advantage of that ruling yet. Go figure.

So you people decide for yourselves whether my point was made in jest or not.
Someone
09-25-05, 11:43 PM The part I find odd is that assassin spellcasting is Int-based, not Cha-based as bard spells are...

But methinks they should have said "like a sorceror", with the added bonus of "cast in light armor with spell failure". Which is pretty close to bard, except for the whole verbal bit...
spectralphoenix
09-26-05, 07:29 AM I think the "in a strong voice" bit refers more to enunciation than volume. You can't be choking, gagged, etc. and you must be able to speak clearly, but you can do it very quietly.

That said, what would happen if I made a rogue 5/assassin 10/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 2? He would get an extra level to his spellcasting class, but the assassin class maxes out at level 10.
runestar
09-26-05, 07:50 AM I think caster lvs would accrue, just that you don't get anymore spells/day.
Karalyn the Sellsword
09-26-05, 07:59 AM Be able to talk in a strong voice doesn't mean you have to use a strong voice when casting spells, it just means you have to be able to. So if you had a sore through you couldn't cast any spells, but if didn't you could still whisper the components.
bolgar
09-26-05, 10:13 AM Be able to talk in a strong voice doesn't mean you have to use a strong voice when casting spells, it just means you have to be able to. So if you had a sore through you couldn't cast any spells, but if didn't you could still whisper the components.
That does not make any sense.
Wilds
09-26-05, 10:50 AM Solution to the probelm: epic, take automatic silent spell twice that way all of the assassin spells are automaticaly silenced
Beamup
09-26-05, 11:17 AM That does not make any sense.
Not so much, no. Nevertheless, that's all the rule actually states. IMO the intent that you actually have to speak in that strong voice is clear. But the writers failed to actually state that.

Like I said, if you strictly interpret exactly what's on the page, you can provide a verbal component without speaking at all. Since all you have to do to provide it is be able to speak in a strong voice.

As far as I'm concerned, this falls in the same category as creatures being able to act freely when dead. (If you look, there's no actual prohibition against taking actions while dead, so strictly speaking you can act normally!)
Ske
09-26-05, 12:17 PM Like I said, if you strictly interpret exactly what's on the page, you can provide a verbal component without speaking at all. Since all you have to do to provide it is be able to speak in a strong voice.

You still have to provide the component. And "a verbal component is a spoken incantation." (Quote: SRD), so you have to say something. You can still whisper, though.
Zeful
09-26-05, 01:32 PM The strong in strong voice is ennunchation. You say it with force not volume. A wizard mutters something that you can't understand but their is something in the way he says certain things with connviction but he never raises his voice. Could that be what they mean?
curan69
09-26-05, 02:49 PM Wouldn't the assasins spells indicate whether or not they have a verbal component?

Just for fun i thought of the following:

If you had to speak in a strong voice wouldnt that make the spell "whisper" kind of stupid?
MrkGrismer
09-28-05, 11:53 AM I have to disagree with the idea that an assassin gets the light armor advantage that bards get. To me "as a bard" under the Spells entry means that you copy the Spells entry for Bard, substituting the word "Assassin" for "Bard" in the text block. The arcane spell failure exception for Bards is in the Weapon and Armor Proficiency secion, and is not repeated in the Assassin's.

I would agree with ignoring "Every bard spell has a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music)." Since very Bard spell does list a V component, but every Assassin spell does not.
Beamup
09-28-05, 01:15 PM I would agree with ignoring "Every bard spell has a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music)." Since very Bard spell does list a V component, but every Assassin spell does not.
Not true. There is one Bard spell that does not have a V component - glibness. Which is also the only core Assassin spell that does not have a V component.
runestar
09-28-05, 11:00 PM So the only real gripe here is whether silent spell can be applied to assassin spells or not. I say just go for it.
MrkGrismer
09-29-05, 09:18 AM Not true. There is one Bard spell that does not have a V component - glibness. Which is also the only core Assassin spell that does not have a V component.

Missed that one, but then again glibness is of no use if you stay silent...
Beamup
09-29-05, 12:03 PM Missed that one, but then again glibness is of no use if you stay silent...
Unless you're lying in sign language or something, yeah.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cherry Darkspawn 09-25-05, 07:31 AM	Hiho, Sorry if this has been addressed before, but the seach engine seems to have issues... Could someone clarify exactly what it means that an Assassin casts spells "just as a bard does"? Spontaneous Caster? (Who wants to juggle a spellbook when you're dangling from a rope, inverted?); Spells must have a verbal component? (Might make things tricky when 'working'); No arcane penalty for casting in Light armour? (I like my figure-hugging leathers!); Any/all of the above, or something that I've missed? Hugs, Cherry.
KmartKommando 09-25-05, 07:49 AM	All of the above. In the bard's spell section, it says that all bard spells have verbal components. However, assassins aren't casting bard spells, they are casting assassin spells; so no mandatory loud spells. :D that would be just stupid anyway that puts assassins casting: spontaneously, in light armor w/ no spell failure, from a small set of known spells. happy hunting...
Ske 09-25-05, 07:52 AM	Though the 'small set of known spells' isn't so small if you have enough books.
runestar 09-25-05, 12:00 PM	Be prepared to have to sing whenever you cast an assassin spell :cool: Though that kinda takes away from their sneakiness.....
Wyrd Bearer 09-25-05, 12:42 PM	Be prepared to have to sing whenever you cast an assassin spell :cool: Though that kinda takes away from their sneakiness.....runestar, could you please explain why you say that? The assassin casts "as a bard," which I interpret as meaning they cast spells in light armour just "as a bard." Since they cast spells from the assassin list and not the bard list, they don't have that singing verbal component. This is my interpretation. Now, I can see where you are coming from if you take the "as a bard" to the extreme meaning an assassin has to sing to cast spells just "as a bard" would. But, for a moment at least, can we stop and think that the "as a bard" cluase was just the original writer's way of saying that the assassin can cast in light armour without asf in less words? Granted, they did not do the same when the hexblade was published, perhaps this was to avoid any confusion or maybe they did intend for the assassin to be entirely incapable of being sneaky while casting spells. If we were to go into extreme nitpickiness, then the assassin could not even cast the spell poison without a divine focus because it is a spell only found on the cleric and druid list. This would be the same for all the other spells that are taken from the divine list. Now, as an appeal to your common sense, which interpretation do you think is the one intended for the assassin? The singing assassin who is incapable of stealth when employing magic because she's singing (ignoring the fact that a spell with any verbal components can't really be whispered in the first place) or an assassin that is actually stealthy to a certain degree?
Vestigial_Thumb 09-25-05, 03:16 PM	Making assassin spells have verbal components is probably the biggest, most disgusting nerf I've ever heard of. Screw RAW if it says otherwise.
Vaalingrade Ashland 09-25-05, 04:42 PM	Making assassin spells have verbal components is probably the biggest, most disgusting nerf I've ever heard of. Screw RAW if it says otherwise. A verbal component is not screaming the name of the spell. To spider climb, the assassin may simply whisper the verbal component.
green_yawgmoth 09-25-05, 05:06 PM	Methinks Wyrd needs to find a dictionary and look up the word "joke". ;) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
bolgar 09-25-05, 05:21 PM	A verbal component is not screaming the name of the spell. To spider climb, the assassin may simply whisper the verbal component. The rules disagree: To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice. So no "whispering" spell components...
Wyrd Bearer 09-25-05, 05:55 PM	Methinks Wyrd needs to find a dictionary and look up the word "joke". ;) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif Nah, I know what a joke is. I've just seriously seen people in the past trying to argue that assassins MUST sing and I don't remember if runestar is one of those adamant people (I give her/him the benefit of the doubt though and I don't really expect a reply).
green_yawgmoth 09-25-05, 07:33 PM	That makes me sad in the pants, people thinking that a PrC based around silent killing would need to sing to cast their spells. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Super_Demolition_Christ 09-25-05, 08:01 PM	That makes me sad in the pants, people thinking that a PrC based around silent killing would need to sing to cast their spells. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif "After weeks of deliberation, you have yet to hear a compelling argument for not beating most of the people you've ever met to within an inch of their lives."
Beamup 09-25-05, 09:28 PM	So no "whispering" spell components... Strictly speaking, that's not what it says. One could remain completely silent while casting a spell with a verbal component without violating that rule. Notice that it does not say you must speak in a strong voice, but rather that you must be able to. Nowhere is it ever stated how audible verbal components are. It's one of those things that's completely DM discretion since there is no rule covering it. I'd also point out that, in a campaign where Assassins must speak verbal components loudly, a Lesser Silent Metamagic Rod is well worth their while. (Optionally a medium Rod for higher-level Assassins.)
Wyrd Bearer 09-25-05, 10:33 PM	Strictly speaking, that's not what it says. One could remain completely silent while casting a spell with a verbal component without violating that rule. Notice that it does not say you must speak in a strong voice, but rather that you must be able to. Nowhere is it ever stated how audible verbal components are. It's one of those things that's completely DM discretion since there is no rule covering it. I'd also point out that, in a campaign where Assassins must speak verbal components loudly, a Lesser Silent Metamagic Rod is well worth their while. (Optionally a medium Rod for higher-level Assassins.) True... about the just being able to do the verbal components... in a twisted sort of way. But I agree whole heartedly on the metamagic rods of silence. Very useful. Optionally, one could always make do with the new use for slight of hand checks presented in Races of Stone where you make a SoH check opposed by any observers Spot checks to see if you successfully whisper the verbal components and just twiddle your thumbs in your sleeves for the somatic without them noticing.
runestar 09-25-05, 11:33 PM	First off, assassins cast spells spontaneously, so no spellbooks are involved. General consensus allows assassins to cast in light armour, so no arguments there. Now to the crux of the problem.... Common sense is nice when a houserule needs to be formulated, just as people can argue till they are blue in the face as to why assassin spells should not have verbal components, but admitably, the desc of "casts as a bard" is ambiguous and vague at best, and common sense has no corellation with RAW whatsoever, however much you wish it to be. Plus, it does not change the fact that quite a number of assassin spells have verbal components, which leaves us with our sole gripe - silent spell. I have never come across an assassin who has burnt a feat slot on silent spell, though I suppose it could be a valid choice. Given an assassin's limited spell progression, metamagicking spells does not really seem that economical. But still, if it rocks your boat....Go with what your dm rules. My group has interpreted that "cast as a bard" means unbypassable verbal components, but my dm ruled that still spell could be used on them. Still, no one has played an assassin or taken advantage of that ruling yet. Go figure. So you people decide for yourselves whether my point was made in jest or not.
Someone 09-25-05, 11:43 PM	The part I find odd is that assassin spellcasting is Int-based, not Cha-based as bard spells are... But methinks they should have said "like a sorceror", with the added bonus of "cast in light armor with spell failure". Which is pretty close to bard, except for the whole verbal bit...
spectralphoenix 09-26-05, 07:29 AM	I think the "in a strong voice" bit refers more to enunciation than volume. You can't be choking, gagged, etc. and you must be able to speak clearly, but you can do it very quietly. That said, what would happen if I made a rogue 5/assassin 10/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 2? He would get an extra level to his spellcasting class, but the assassin class maxes out at level 10.
runestar 09-26-05, 07:50 AM	I think caster lvs would accrue, just that you don't get anymore spells/day.
Karalyn the Sellsword 09-26-05, 07:59 AM	Be able to talk in a strong voice doesn't mean you have to use a strong voice when casting spells, it just means you have to be able to. So if you had a sore through you couldn't cast any spells, but if didn't you could still whisper the components.
bolgar 09-26-05, 10:13 AM	Be able to talk in a strong voice doesn't mean you have to use a strong voice when casting spells, it just means you have to be able to. So if you had a sore through you couldn't cast any spells, but if didn't you could still whisper the components. That does not make any sense.
Wilds 09-26-05, 10:50 AM	Solution to the probelm: epic, take automatic silent spell twice that way all of the assassin spells are automaticaly silenced
Beamup 09-26-05, 11:17 AM	That does not make any sense. Not so much, no. Nevertheless, that's all the rule actually states. IMO the intent that you actually have to speak in that strong voice is clear. But the writers failed to actually state that. Like I said, if you strictly interpret exactly what's on the page, you can provide a verbal component without speaking at all. Since all you have to do to provide it is be able to speak in a strong voice. As far as I'm concerned, this falls in the same category as creatures being able to act freely when dead. (If you look, there's no actual prohibition against taking actions while dead, so strictly speaking you can act normally!)
Ske 09-26-05, 12:17 PM	Like I said, if you strictly interpret exactly what's on the page, you can provide a verbal component without speaking at all. Since all you have to do to provide it is be able to speak in a strong voice. You still have to provide the component. And "a verbal component is a spoken incantation." (Quote: SRD), so you have to say something. You can still whisper, though.
Zeful 09-26-05, 01:32 PM	The strong in strong voice is ennunchation. You say it with force not volume. A wizard mutters something that you can't understand but their is something in the way he says certain things with connviction but he never raises his voice. Could that be what they mean?
curan69 09-26-05, 02:49 PM	Wouldn't the assasins spells indicate whether or not they have a verbal component? Just for fun i thought of the following: If you had to speak in a strong voice wouldnt that make the spell "whisper" kind of stupid?
MrkGrismer 09-28-05, 11:53 AM	I have to disagree with the idea that an assassin gets the light armor advantage that bards get. To me "as a bard" under the Spells entry means that you copy the Spells entry for Bard, substituting the word "Assassin" for "Bard" in the text block. The arcane spell failure exception for Bards is in the Weapon and Armor Proficiency secion, and is not repeated in the Assassin's. I would agree with ignoring "Every bard spell has a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music)." Since very Bard spell does list a V component, but every Assassin spell does not.
Beamup 09-28-05, 01:15 PM	I would agree with ignoring "Every bard spell has a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music)." Since very Bard spell does list a V component, but every Assassin spell does not. Not true. There is one Bard spell that does not have a V component - glibness. Which is also the only core Assassin spell that does not have a V component.
runestar 09-28-05, 11:00 PM	So the only real gripe here is whether silent spell can be applied to assassin spells or not. I say just go for it.
MrkGrismer 09-29-05, 09:18 AM	Not true. There is one Bard spell that does not have a V component - glibness. Which is also the only core Assassin spell that does not have a V component. Missed that one, but then again glibness is of no use if you stay silent...
Beamup 09-29-05, 12:03 PM	Missed that one, but then again glibness is of no use if you stay silent... Unless you're lying in sign language or something, yeah.