Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sian_Son_of_Cune 09-12-06, 10:28 AM	Also give any thoughts or comments about it. I have revised the spell to reflect some of the comments given. All changes are in red. Thanks for the feedback. Telekenetic Burst Evocation Level: Sor/Wiz 3rd Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Short (25ft. + 5 ft./2level) Area: 15-ft. radius burst Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Reflex half Spell Resistance: Yes The caster targets a 5' square within range. This spell causes a burst of kinetic force to explode in a 15' radius from the center point (the five foot center square is unaffected). All creatures and unattended objects in the burst area take 1d4 bludgeoning damage/lvl to a max of 10d4, reflex for half. Any creature that fails it's reflex is bull rushed by this spell. The spell counts as a large creature with a strength equal to the casters int(if wizard) or cha(if sorcerer). Creatures knocked back by this spell are also knocked prone. unattended objects weighing less than 50pds are pushed to the edge of the spell's radius. objects weighing more than 50pds may be knocked over or pushed up to 5 feet as appropriate. Flying creatures that lose the bull rush are knocked back but not prone.
The_Ditto 09-12-06, 10:58 AM	The fact you capped it at 10 dice suggests 3rd level spell .. the d4's make it a bit weak ... but I think it still belongs at 3rd level. I'd probably add the [Force] descriptor ... it makes sense ... And just to avoid any future "arguments" ... include one of these two lines - based on your intent of the spell: a) this spell ignores DR or b) this spell ignores only DR x/bludgeoning ...
Puca 09-12-06, 11:01 AM	Id change it so that the Bull Rush is not automatic, but that a failed reflex means you have to make a Strength check, and let the caster use his primary stat. (Like the combat maneuver in Telekinesis.) If you do that, I think you are looking at a 3rd-level spell.
Sian_Son_of_Cune 09-12-06, 11:18 AM	I am not sure that DR should not apply. The concept is that the spell does a really hard push. So if you are resistant to bludgeoning then you would be resistant to this spell. On the other hand if you are weak against budgeoning the spell does that much more damage. If I made the creatures make a strength check should I remove the size limitation? I made the bull rush go purely off the reflex save to try to keep the spell simple and cut back on extra die rolling. Thanks for the comments please send anymore you have.
smrtgmp 09-12-06, 04:09 PM	If I made the creatures make a strength check should I remove the size limition? I made the bull rush go purely off the reflex save to try to keep the spell simple and cut back on extra die rolling.I would remove the size limitation. Instead, allow them to apply size and stability modifiers to the check inorder to resist the bull rush. nice spell, btw. oh, one more thing. If it has to punch through SR, then dont make it go through DR as well. IMO spells should only have to get through one or the other. edit: oh yeah. Any particular reason why you center it on a square rather than a grid intersection? The latter is par for the course when it comes to AoE spells. I would concider changing that as well.
Sian_Son_of_Cune 09-12-06, 05:09 PM	I would remove the size limitation. Instead, allow them to apply size and stability modifiers to the check inorder to resist the bull rush. nice spell, btw. oh, one more thing. If it has to punch through SR, then dont make it go through DR as well. IMO spells should only have to get through one or the other. edit: oh yeah. Any particular reason why you center it on a square rather than a grid intersection? The latter is par for the course when it comes to AoE spells. I would concider changing that as well. Ok, I think I will remove the size limitation and make it a bull rush using the casters's int or cha instead of str. I think the spell will also count as a medium creature in terms of the bull rush. I made it center on a square because I wanted the center square to be unaffected. That way it has a doughnut effect. That actually gives the caster the option of centering the spell on himself or perhaps even a party member. I considered removing the doughnut effect to increase the spells range to medium. Perhaps your right on the DR part of it. I will wait a bit for a few more comments then I will post a revised version of the spell. I would like to hear more thoughts about the DR and possibly the doughnut effect and range. Thanks for the help guys.
smrtgmp 09-13-06, 01:56 AM	I made it center on a square because I wanted the center square to be unaffected. That way it has a doughnut effect. That actually gives the caster the option of centering the spell on himself or perhaps even a party member. I considered removing the doughnut effect to increase the spells range to medium.Ahh, I didnt realise there was a hole in the middle. Looking back at the original post, I'm not sure how I missed that. :doh: I would definately keep that. It makes the spell far more interesting. This concept also naturally lends itself to improved/greater versions. Increase the damage/range/effective size incramentally and you've got a solid series of spells.
Venator 09-13-06, 10:33 AM	3rd pretty cool spell. might be tough to use with such a small range though.
Sian_Son_of_Cune 09-13-06, 12:03 PM	Ok made some changes to reflect some of the feedback. Thanks for the help.
The_Ditto 09-13-06, 02:37 PM	Just to re-iterate .. I noticed you removed the SR ... .. but didn't mention anything about DR ? From your earlier reply, I took it as you wanted this spell to be affected by DR ... you should clarify that in the spell description .. By default, since it's an evocation spell, it will bypass all DR ... per the rules .. :tiphat:
The_Ditto 09-13-06, 02:38 PM	3rd pretty cool spell. might be tough to use with such a small range though. Why? Target the square you're standing in ... push everyone away from you .. It's perfect, because something like this, you don't need a long range for .. ;) just thought .. there is a metamagic feat "Hole in the middle" isn't there? or is that in the old 3.0 tome of magic? If so, what was the slot adjustment for that? That might be something to take into account ... since the spell basically has that metamagic feat "built in" ... it might bump it to a 4th or 5th ... :rolleyes:
Sian_Son_of_Cune 09-13-06, 03:07 PM	Would DR not apply simply because it is an Evocation spell? I did not know that. Is that true for all schools or just evocation. If that is the case then yes I should note in the spell that DR still applies. Ditto I know the feat you are thinking about. There is also an Archmage class feature that does something similiar. Whether it should raise the lvl or not I am not, I don't know. When compared to fireball that is why it does less damage, has a smaller radius and a much shorter range. Since it can knock creatures prone, and you can center it on yourself or an ally. The hole in the center could potentially be a drawback (though not likely) as well if you are trying to effect everything in that area. Like I said before I thought about removing the hole in the center and increase its range to medium, but I agree that as it is now it is a bit more interesting. But please assign a lvl to it as you see fit. I recently made it 3rd lvl since others seemed to be in general agreement that is what lvl it should be.
The_Ditto 09-13-06, 04:06 PM	Would DR not apply simply because it is an Evocation spell? I did not know that. Is that true for all schools or just evocation. If that is the case then yes I should note in the spell that DR still applies. From the SRD: Damage Reduction (Ex or Su): A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. A certain kind of weapon can sometimes damage the creature normally, as noted below. The entry indicates the amount of damage ignored (usually 5 to 15 points) and the type of weapon that negates the ability. Some monsters are vulnerable to piercing, bludgeoning, or slashing damage. Some monsters are vulnerable to certain materials, such as alchemical silver, adamantine, or cold-forged iron. Attacks from weapons that are not made of the correct material have their damage reduced, even if the weapon has an enhancement bonus. Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures’ natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons; that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures’ natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Some monsters are vulnerable to chaotic-, evil-, good-, or lawful-aligned weapons. When a cleric casts align weapon, affected weapons might gain one or more of these properties, and certain magic weapons have these properties as well. A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that match the subtype(s) of the creature. When a damage reduction entry has a dash (–) after the slash, no weapon negates the damage reduction. A few creatures are harmed by more than one kind of weapon. A weapon of either type overcomes this damage reduction. A few other creatures require combinations of different types of attacks to overcome their damage reduction. A weapon must be both types to overcome this damage reduction. A weapon that is only one type is still subject to damage reduction. Emphasis mine ... by default, ALL SPELLS bypass DR ... There is an on-going ... uh "discussion" about whether or not Conjuration(creation) spells with an instantaneous duration bypss DR or not ... but that isn't an issue here, since your spell is an Evocation school ... it clearly bypasses DR ... period. Hence I recommend you adding something if you actually want it to be affected by DR ... ;) Ditto I know the feat you are thinking about. There is also an Archmage class feature that does something similiar. Whether it should raise the lvl or not I am not, I don't know. When compared to fireball that is why it does less damage, has a smaller radius and a much shorter range. Since it can knock creatures prone, and you can center it on yourself or an ally. The hole in the center could potentially be a drawback (though not likely) as well if you are trying to effect everything in that area. Like I said before I thought about removing the hole in the center and increase its range to medium, but I agree that as it is now it is a bit more interesting. But please assign a lvl to it as you see fit. I recently made it 3rd lvl since others seemed to be in general agreement that is what lvl it should be. My gut says it's probably still ok as 3rd ... I just wanted to bring that up .. in case anyone else had something to add to it ... it is a valid reason for raising the level, howeer, as you've pointed out, it may be balanced well enough with that included to leave it at 3rd ... I'm not too sure, I don't create too many new spells so don't have to worry about balancing them too much ... :D
webhed999 09-13-06, 08:03 PM	I'm not necessarily trying to argue in favor of it being higher level, but when comparing to other telekinetic-type spells (Telekinesis, Telekinetic Sphere, Bigbys X'ing Hand, etc) this spell seems to be more powerful than some of those and they are much higher level. Does anyone have any thoughts on why this is not as powerful as some of those (particularly the Bigby spells).
smrtgmp 09-13-06, 08:37 PM	I've always found the bigby spells to be somewhat lacking. I dont think the above spell even begins to compare to telekinesis in terms of power, as telekinesis is, pound for pound, on of the best spells for its level. Its versatility is staggering.
dennyedwards 09-14-06, 03:54 PM	Lets look at the components of the Telekinetic Burst and see what level spells would correspond to those effects. Then we should consider what level a spell that grants ALL of these affects simultaneously should be. What are the effects of TB: (1) 1d4 points of damage to all targets in a 15' burst, reflex save for half, max 10d4, short range? LEVEL OF EFFECT: 2nd-3rd? (2) All unattendend objects of 50 lbs or less are moved to extent of the spell (15'). LEVEL OF EFFECT: 3rd-4th? see below With the Violent Thrust mode of Telekinesis, a 9th level caster could accomplish something vaguely similiar effect--moving 225lbs and possible using the objects to do additional damage. Since TB doesn't seek to use the objects as weapons , the moving of objects that TB suggests might be more like the Sustained Force mode of Telekinesis. With this mode a 9th level caster could move one object of 225 lbs or less for 9 rounds. * TB should probably have a similiar mechanic for maximum weight--not just all objects under 50 lbs in the area of effect. So what level would we call an effect that cound move all objects in a 15' burst all at the same time 15'? Even TK can't do this 5th level, however if you were to just have a spell effect that did this and didn't have the other versatality of Telekinesis, then maybe it would be 3rd or 4th level--though maybe its still 5th. Note, that TB could theoretically move any number of 50 lb objects, say there were 40 then that would be 2000lbs of objects that could be moved all at once by TB, but a 9th level wizard casting Telekinesis would have to spend several rounds. (3) All creatures in the area of affect are affected by a bullrush attack The PHB2 has a 2nd level spell, Bigby's Striking Fist which deals 1d6 nonlethal damage per two caster levels, reflex for half . A single creature failing the save is subject to a bullrush with a bonus of +2, plus +1 for every two caster levels. So what level should and effect be that could target all creatures in a 15' burst (potentially 24 medium size creatures). Certainly this effect seems more power than the 2nd level Bigby's Striking Fist. Lets say 3-4 (being generous). * I think there should definitely be a cap on the number of targets, either 1 per caster level or 1 per two caster levels. Also, you might consider adding a bonus similar to Bigby's Strinking fist of +1 per two caster levels on the bullrush attempt. LEVEL OF EFFECT: 3rd-4th (4) Creatures failing their save are prone (similar to Grease). * If you were trying to bring the overall level of the spell down, you might consider limiting the number of targets to 1 per (one or two) caster levels and/or make a Trip attack against the target similiar to Bigby's Tripping Hand--in place of creatures just becoming automatically prone if they failed their One reflex save. Another idea would be have a separate Reflex save for the prone effect. LEVEL OF EFFECT: 1st WHAT LEVEL WOULD I ASSIGN? ================== So, ballpark we have several effects in Telekinetic Burst that are a combination of two 3rd level effects, a 2nd level effect and a 1st level effect. If we were to take the highest level effect and add +1 level for each additional effect that was within a level or two of the highest effect that would put this spell (in the incarnation that I see) at around 6th level.
webhed999 09-14-06, 09:48 PM	Anyone else have any thoughts on this? Personally I see it more like around 5th level. Anyone have a detailed reason why this is fair as a 3rd level spell?
Yaeri 09-15-06, 08:30 AM	I really like this spell. Nice job! Anyone else have any thoughts on this? Personally I see it more like around 5th level. Anyone have a detailed reason why this is fair as a 3rd level spell? 3rd level seems suitable to me. Compared to fireball, this spell's range is only short (compared to long) This spell does about 33% less damage (D4's instead of D6's) It has a 15 ft radius spread (compared to a 20 ft radius spread) Possibly, the spell is susceptible to all DR except for DR/bludgeoning. In return the spell does a bull rush (only against the creatures who failed the reflex save) The spell doesn't need a material component.
webhed999 09-15-06, 09:00 AM	I really like this spell. Nice job! 3rd level seems suitable to me. Compared to fireball, this spell's range is only short (compared to long) This spell does about 33% less damage (D4's instead of D6's) It has a 15 ft radius spread (compared to a 20 ft radius spread) Possibly, the spell is susceptible to all DR except for DR/bludgeoning. In return the spell does a bull rush (only against the creatures who failed the reflex save) The spell doesn't need a material component. However, when you compare it to the various Bigby's Hand spells, this spell wraps several of them up into one spell, and they are all higher than 3rd level. Do any of you agree?
The_Ditto 09-15-06, 09:05 AM	However, when you compare it to the various Bigby's Hand spells, this spell wraps several of them up into one spell, and they are all higher than 3rd level. Do any of you agree? Undecided ... Something is nagging at me that this shouldn't be 3rd .. but I can't quite put a finger on it ... that being said, you may have a point in comparing it to Bigby's -type spells ... *shrug* ... Not sure .. I'll step back to my one question that has gone unanswered (or maybe because I didn't come right out and ask it as such .. :D ) Does anyone know the slot adjustment of the metamagic feat: "Hole in the Middle" ??
Yaeri 09-15-06, 01:43 PM	However, when you compare it to the various Bigby's Hand spells, this spell wraps several of them up into one spell, and they are all higher than 3rd level. Do any of you agree? Good point. I'm not sure. Bigby's crushing hand. worse because: It doesn't do the damage (up to 10D4, susceptible to DR) It does a bull rush against only one opponent. better because: It has a duration of 1 round per level. So it can keep bullrushing for a lot of rounds. It prevents the opponent from getting to the caster. It grants a +4 cover bonus to AC. I'm just trying to sum it all up here. I have no idea how all the effects add up in worth. To me it still seems viable as a 3rd level spell. Unless I'm underestimating the value of a one time bull rush from the center of the spell. At the moment it only seems overpowered on a bridge or something.
dennyedwards 09-16-06, 12:48 AM	My response as stated above is 6th level as shown above, but I felt I had to respond to the poster's who thought 3rd level "feels good". I offered this analysis of why I think the spell as written in not 3rd level. I also offer a version below that MIGHT be consider 3rd level in my opinion. Looking at Telekinetic Blast, the damage per level (1d4) and maximum (10d4) alone would make this a 3rd level spell, despite playing with range and not being 1d6/lv. While a 1d4/lv, max 10d4 spell isn't as good as Fireball or Lightning Bolt, its in the range for a 3rd level spell as defined by the DMG 3.5 under Creating New Spells (pg 35-36). As another example, see Resonating Bolt in the Complete Arcane (pg 121)--it is basically a 60' line that does Sonic damage of 1d4/lv, max 10d4. Beyond the damage component, Telekinetic Burst seeks to add what has been suggested by the spell's creator as a Gust of Wind type component--an effect that could push back and possibly make prone creatures in the area of effect, additionally objects would be moved. If we look at Gust of Wind, we see that is a 2nd level spell that can not do all the things Telekinetic Burst is trying to do. So if we took a 3rd level effect (the damage component) and added a 2nd level effect (Gust of Wind) we would still be a long way to getting Telekinetic Burst, since Gust of Wind is practically useless against Medium or larger creatures and even if it could affect them could only make them prone (not push them back--unless they were flying). I respectfully submit that the spell is NOT 3rd level. ALTERNATE VERSION ===================== Telekinetic Burst Evocation [Force] Level: Sor/Wiz 3rd Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Short (25ft. + 5 ft./2level) Area: 15-ft. radius burst Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Reflex half Spell Resistance: Yes This spell causes a burst of kinetic force to explode in a 15' radius from the center point (one of the five foot squares adjacent to the intersection at the spell’s center is not unaffected by the spell). All creatures in the burst area take 1d4 points of non-lethal damage per caster level (to a maximum of 10d4). A successful reflex save reduces the damage by half. All creatures in the area are bull rushed by the burst. The spell counts as a large creature with a strength equal to the caster’s Intelligence score (for a wizard) or Charisma (for a sorcerer ). Non-flying creatures knocked back by the bull rush must succeed on an additional Reflex save or become prone. Unattended objects in the area are moved outward from the center of effect to just outside the area as if moved by a creature with a Strength score as described above. So small objects might be turned over and pushed while larger, braced objects may not be affected.
Kal_Torak 09-16-06, 11:25 AM	"Hole in the Middle" seems to be pretty much the "sculpt spell" feat from the Complete Arcane (increases spell slot by 1). Sculpt spell allows you to change the shap of the spell, very useful for making spells of different energy types to affect different areas. With it, you can turn fireball into a cone aoe or make an arcane flamestrike. "Sculpt Spell [metamagic] You can alter the area of your spells Preq:any metamagic feat Benefit: You can modify an area spell by changing the area's shape to either a cylinder (10-foot radius, 30 ft high), a 40 ft cone, four 10 ft cubes, a ball (20 ft radius spread) or a 120 ft line. The sculpted spell works normally in all respects except for its shape. For example, a lightning bolt whose area is changed to a ball deals the same amount of damage, but affect a 20 ft radius spread. A scuplted spell uses a slot one level higher than the spell's actual level.