Attacking, Spritiual weapon and breaking invisibility/sanctuary [Archive] - Wizards Community

Attacking, Spritiual weapon and breaking invisibility/sanctuary [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Inigo Carmine
07-15-05, 12:01 AM Hey, I've got an encounter planned for my party this Sunday, and I'm uncertain on something. Can one use the spiritual weapon spell without breaking sanctuary or invisibility?

The spell spiritual weapon seems to imply that you're just summoning the weapon and it attacks on its own. The spell generates an "effect" similar to summon creature spells (which are explicitly allowed under those spells), but I'm a little cautious because unlike summoned creatures, this thing attacks with your BAB/WIS. Technically though, the "effect" of the spell isn't targetting a foe, it's just bringing something into being. Anyone have any good input for this?

Here are the relevant parts of spell descriptions for your perusal:

Invisibility

The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. (Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character’s perceptions.) Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth. If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear. Spells such as bless that specifically affect allies but not foes are not attacks for this purpose, even when they include foes in their area.

===========
Sanctuary

Any opponent attempting to strike or otherwise directly attack the warded creature, even with a targeted spell, must attempt a Will save. If the save succeeds, the opponent can attack normally and is unaffected by that casting of the spell. If the save fails, the opponent can’t follow through with the attack, that part of its action is lost, and it can’t directly attack the warded creature for the duration of the spell. Those not attempting to attack the subject remain unaffected. This spell does not prevent the warded creature from being attacked or affected by area or effect spells. The subject cannot attack without breaking the spell but may use nonattack spells or otherwise act.

The PHB actually adds the line "This allows a warded cleric to heal wounds, for example, or to cast a bless spell, perform an augury, summon creatures, and so on."

============

Spiritual Weapon

Evocation [Force]
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: Magic weapon of force
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

A weapon made of pure force springs into existence and attacks opponents at a distance, as you direct it, dealing 1d8 force damage per hit, +1 point per three caster levels (maximum +5 at 15th level). The weapon takes the shape of a weapon favored by your deity or a weapon with some spiritual significance or symbolism to you (see below) and has the same threat range and critical multipliers as a real weapon of its form. It strikes the opponent you designate, starting with one attack in the round the spell is cast and continuing each round thereafter on your turn. It uses your base attack bonus (possibly allowing it multiple attacks per round in subsequent rounds) plus your Wisdom modifier as its attack bonus. It strikes as a spell, not as a weapon, so, for example, it can damage creatures that have damage reduction. As a force effect, it can strike incorporeal creatures without the normal miss chance associated with incorporeality. The weapon always strikes from your direction. It does not get a flanking bonus or help a combatant get one. Your feats or combat actions do not affect the weapon. If the weapon goes beyond the spell range, if it goes out of your sight, or if you are not directing it, the weapon returns to you and hovers.

Each round after the first, you can use a move action to redirect the weapon to a new target. If you do not, the weapon continues to attack the previous round’s target. On any round that the weapon switches targets, it gets one attack. Subsequent rounds of attacking that target allow the weapon to make multiple attacks if your base attack bonus would allow it to. Even if the spiritual weapon is a ranged weapon, use the spell’s range, not the weapon’s normal range increment, and switching targets still is a move action.

A spiritual weapon cannot be attacked or harmed by physical attacks, but dispel magic, disintegrate, a sphere of annihilation, or a rod of cancellation affects it. A spiritual weapon’s AC against touch attacks is 12 (10 + size bonus for Tiny object).

If an attacked creature has spell resistance, you make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against that spell resistance the first time the spiritual weapon strikes it. If the weapon is successfully resisted, the spell is dispelled. If not, the weapon has its normal full effect on that creature for the duration of the spell.
Androcus Divinicus
07-15-05, 12:52 AM Well, I've always felt that the restrictions placed upon Invisibility make it a spell that few would use (excepting, of course very specialized situations) ... however ... I personally believe that the fact that Spiritual Weapon is an Evocation spell, along with the fact that it says "attacks ... as you direct it" makes it a spell that would break the effects of Invisibility and Sanctuary. I realize that making a distinction between "attacks as you direct it" and the language used in the Summon Monster spells may be drawing an unnecessarily fine line, but to me, the when the text of Summon Monster says "It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions." it is implying that the summoned monster functions as effectively another member of your party.

But that's me.

Regards,
Justin.
Colmarr
07-15-05, 02:03 AM From the FAQ:

Q. Would casting detect magic be considered an attack for the purpose of ending an invisibility spell?

A. The invisibility spell states that “for purposes of the spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe.” [Emphasis added.] Detect magic and similar spells have an area, so if this area included a foe, it would count as an “attack” for this purpose.

Q. Does casting sanctuary end an invisibility spell because it
requires a foe to resist its effect with a saving throw? What about wall of fire?

A. No. Any spell that only causes harm indirectly (including causing harm due to another creature’s actions, such as sanctuary) is not an attack, even if its effects can be resisted with a saving throw. Other spells that can fall into this category include fire trap (since its harmful effect is triggered by a character opening the trapped item), spike stones (since its harmful effect is triggered by a character walking over it), and wall of fire (since its harmful effect is triggered by a character approaching within 20 feet).

Of course, even some of these spells may be cast in such a way as to end an invisibility spell. If wall of fire is cast within 20 feet of another creature, it immediately and directly causes harm to that creature, which would end invisibility.

I think the second quote is more relevant, particularly the last sentence of the sages answer. If the casting of a spell immediately and directly causes harm to the creature, the invisibility spell ends. In the case of spiritual weapon, the weapon immediately attacks the target. It might not hit, but it attacks. I would rule that it breaks invisibility.

As for Sanctuary, I consider that Spiritual Weapon is definitely an "attack spell" (although no such RAW category exists), and would cancel the Sanctuary.
Inigo Carmine
07-15-05, 08:46 AM If the casting of a spell immediately and directly causes harm to the creature, the invisibility spell ends. In the case of spiritual weapon, the weapon immediately attacks the target. It might not hit, but it attacks. I would rule that it breaks invisibility.

What about summon creature spells though? Those are explicitly allowed by both spells as not breaking their effect. Both summoning and spiritual weapon have the same type of detail in their heading (ie Effect: Magic weapon of force). Summoning creatures takes a round, granted, but thats a small difference (theory-wise), and I'm pretty sure there's WotC feats out there that get around that (or sone of those wonderous item figurines or something).

I'm not completely disagreeing, I'm just playing devil's advocate to try and come up with the best possible solution. As it stands, it's a little too iffy right now, so I'm not going to try it against my PCs unless I can feel confident it's allowed.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Inigo Carmine 07-15-05, 12:01 AM	Hey, I've got an encounter planned for my party this Sunday, and I'm uncertain on something. Can one use the spiritual weapon spell without breaking sanctuary or invisibility? The spell spiritual weapon seems to imply that you're just summoning the weapon and it attacks on its own. The spell generates an "effect" similar to summon creature spells (which are explicitly allowed under those spells), but I'm a little cautious because unlike summoned creatures, this thing attacks with your BAB/WIS. Technically though, the "effect" of the spell isn't targetting a foe, it's just bringing something into being. Anyone have any good input for this? Here are the relevant parts of spell descriptions for your perusal: Invisibility The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. (Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character’s perceptions.) Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth. If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear. Spells such as bless that specifically affect allies but not foes are not attacks for this purpose, even when they include foes in their area. =========== Sanctuary Any opponent attempting to strike or otherwise directly attack the warded creature, even with a targeted spell, must attempt a Will save. If the save succeeds, the opponent can attack normally and is unaffected by that casting of the spell. If the save fails, the opponent can’t follow through with the attack, that part of its action is lost, and it can’t directly attack the warded creature for the duration of the spell. Those not attempting to attack the subject remain unaffected. This spell does not prevent the warded creature from being attacked or affected by area or effect spells. The subject cannot attack without breaking the spell but may use nonattack spells or otherwise act. The PHB actually adds the line "This allows a warded cleric to heal wounds, for example, or to cast a bless spell, perform an augury, summon creatures, and so on." ============ Spiritual Weapon Evocation [Force] Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) Effect: Magic weapon of force Duration: 1 round/level (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: Yes A weapon made of pure force springs into existence and attacks opponents at a distance, as you direct it, dealing 1d8 force damage per hit, +1 point per three caster levels (maximum +5 at 15th level). The weapon takes the shape of a weapon favored by your deity or a weapon with some spiritual significance or symbolism to you (see below) and has the same threat range and critical multipliers as a real weapon of its form. It strikes the opponent you designate, starting with one attack in the round the spell is cast and continuing each round thereafter on your turn. It uses your base attack bonus (possibly allowing it multiple attacks per round in subsequent rounds) plus your Wisdom modifier as its attack bonus. It strikes as a spell, not as a weapon, so, for example, it can damage creatures that have damage reduction. As a force effect, it can strike incorporeal creatures without the normal miss chance associated with incorporeality. The weapon always strikes from your direction. It does not get a flanking bonus or help a combatant get one. Your feats or combat actions do not affect the weapon. If the weapon goes beyond the spell range, if it goes out of your sight, or if you are not directing it, the weapon returns to you and hovers. Each round after the first, you can use a move action to redirect the weapon to a new target. If you do not, the weapon continues to attack the previous round’s target. On any round that the weapon switches targets, it gets one attack. Subsequent rounds of attacking that target allow the weapon to make multiple attacks if your base attack bonus would allow it to. Even if the spiritual weapon is a ranged weapon, use the spell’s range, not the weapon’s normal range increment, and switching targets still is a move action. A spiritual weapon cannot be attacked or harmed by physical attacks, but dispel magic, disintegrate, a sphere of annihilation, or a rod of cancellation affects it. A spiritual weapon’s AC against touch attacks is 12 (10 + size bonus for Tiny object). If an attacked creature has spell resistance, you make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against that spell resistance the first time the spiritual weapon strikes it. If the weapon is successfully resisted, the spell is dispelled. If not, the weapon has its normal full effect on that creature for the duration of the spell.
Androcus Divinicus 07-15-05, 12:52 AM	Well, I've always felt that the restrictions placed upon Invisibility make it a spell that few would use (excepting, of course very specialized situations) ... however ... I personally believe that the fact that Spiritual Weapon is an Evocation spell, along with the fact that it says "attacks ... as you direct it" makes it a spell that would break the effects of Invisibility and Sanctuary. I realize that making a distinction between "attacks as you direct it" and the language used in the Summon Monster spells may be drawing an unnecessarily fine line, but to me, the when the text of Summon Monster says "It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions." it is implying that the summoned monster functions as effectively another member of your party. But that's me. Regards, Justin.
Colmarr 07-15-05, 02:03 AM	From the FAQ: Q. Would casting detect magic be considered an attack for the purpose of ending an invisibility spell? A. The invisibility spell states that “for purposes of the spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe.” [Emphasis added.] Detect magic and similar spells have an area, so if this area included a foe, it would count as an “attack” for this purpose. Q. Does casting sanctuary end an invisibility spell because it requires a foe to resist its effect with a saving throw? What about wall of fire? A. No. Any spell that only causes harm indirectly (including causing harm due to another creature’s actions, such as sanctuary) is not an attack, even if its effects can be resisted with a saving throw. Other spells that can fall into this category include fire trap (since its harmful effect is triggered by a character opening the trapped item), spike stones (since its harmful effect is triggered by a character walking over it), and wall of fire (since its harmful effect is triggered by a character approaching within 20 feet). Of course, even some of these spells may be cast in such a way as to end an invisibility spell. If wall of fire is cast within 20 feet of another creature, it immediately and directly causes harm to that creature, which would end invisibility. I think the second quote is more relevant, particularly the last sentence of the sages answer. If the casting of a spell immediately and directly causes harm to the creature, the invisibility spell ends. In the case of spiritual weapon, the weapon immediately attacks the target. It might not hit, but it attacks. I would rule that it breaks invisibility. As for Sanctuary, I consider that Spiritual Weapon is definitely an "attack spell" (although no such RAW category exists), and would cancel the Sanctuary.
Inigo Carmine 07-15-05, 08:46 AM	If the casting of a spell immediately and directly causes harm to the creature, the invisibility spell ends. In the case of spiritual weapon, the weapon immediately attacks the target. It might not hit, but it attacks. I would rule that it breaks invisibility. What about summon creature spells though? Those are explicitly allowed by both spells as not breaking their effect. Both summoning and spiritual weapon have the same type of detail in their heading (ie Effect: Magic weapon of force). Summoning creatures takes a round, granted, but thats a small difference (theory-wise), and I'm pretty sure there's WotC feats out there that get around that (or sone of those wonderous item figurines or something). I'm not completely disagreeing, I'm just playing devil's advocate to try and come up with the best possible solution. As it stands, it's a little too iffy right now, so I'm not going to try it against my PCs unless I can feel confident it's allowed.