Post/Author/DateTime	Post
INeedNoSalt 08-04-06, 01:16 AM	So, my DM is arguing that Augury (a 2nd level cleric spell) lets somebody predict the results of a Deck of Many Things draw. My argument was that it's a completely random effort, and as such, the Augury cannot know the result before hand. I suggested if this were true, then we could just force, say, prisoners to draw on 'woe' auguries, and people we like to draw on 'weal' auguries. So he suggests that the deck shuffles itself for every person, so that every person has the same deck (that is to say, once I've held the deck, it's array of cards is set in stone, and as such, an augury speaking 'woe' is only a prediction for myself.) I pointed out that there's nothing like that in the entry for the item, and he was making things up. So he decided to be childish and say that nowhere in the entry does it say that cards are reinserted randomly into the deck, so I must've been making mechanics up, and that's when I ended the conversation. So uh, thoughts? My overall point was that he was daft for giving a 5th level party such a ridiculous item in the first place, and even moreso because he gave us such a ridiculous artifact and expected us to cheat it (using a second level spell, no less!)
teemuu 08-04-06, 01:42 AM	I believe the description of the spell says it will give one of 4 responses if sucessful. Weal, woe, weal and woe, or nothing. Since drawing the deck can give a good or bad result. The result should have been weal and woe. Or if you are old school , you can dig out the 1st ed or 2nd ed augury rules, and give the old standby result of " Great risk bring great reward."
J.B. 08-04-06, 01:46 AM	1.) Yes, I believe "Augury" works in predicting the outcome of draws from a "deck of many things". Especially since the outcome is usually going to be either "good" or "bad". 2.) Cards drawn from the deck are immediately replaced making it possible for a character to draw the same card twice. 3.) You are right in that such a ridiculously powerful artifact shouldn't be in the hands of low level characters, but maybe he has his reasons (or not). 4.) I don't believe you can force prisoners to take a "bad" draw from the deck. Each character has to decide ahead of time how many cards he/she will draw. Nobody else can take the "bad" draw for you.
TRCEttin 08-04-06, 01:46 AM	So he decided to be childish and say that nowhere in the entry does it say that cards are reinserted randomly into the deck, so I must've been making mechanics up, and that's when I ended the conversation. So what does this mean, then? Each time a card is taken from the deck, it is replaced (making it possible to draw the same card twice)
INeedNoSalt 08-04-06, 01:54 AM	1.) Yes, I believe "Augury" works in predicting the outcome of draws from a "deck of many things". Especially since the outcome is usually going to be either "good" or "bad". So all it takes is a single 3rd level cleric to overcome all of the drawbacks of the deck? Doesn't seem very balanced to me.
runestar 08-04-06, 02:02 AM	You could say that the results of the card drawing would be such if you had drawn the card instead of casting augury. Since you chose to hesitate and cast augury instead of drawing the card, the future will hesitate and change with you. Thus, the card you draw will having nothing to do with the results predicted by augury whatsoever. :P
Alric 08-04-06, 02:16 AM	You would have to ask is the next card good and the DM would look without showing you then give you the vague answer of good or bad. It should work however. Doesn't the deck say it can only be used by you once though? So it would help you but you can't abuse it. Also augury probably wouldn't work if you asked for the next 5 cards because that would be to vague.
Thiez 08-04-06, 06:04 AM	Deck of May Things is the crappiest artifact you can get. Dump it somewhere. Burry it. Throw it into the astral. Drop it in the plane of shadow. Do anything to get rid of it.
OrbitalB 08-04-06, 07:00 AM	IMC, if one of my players wants to 'cheat' the DoMT... and let's not try to fool ourselves into thinking it's anything but 'cheating' it... I think I will say to myself this; The DoMT is an Artifact, it was created with a magic that no longer exists. It (A CL 20 item) could very easily be built with an anti-divination built right into it, at least vs divination of less than 20th CL. Result: All divinations will answer with a favourable result... and result with an unfavourable result. They won't cheat twice. Artifacts are the domain of the Gods... don't mess with the gods.
Thiez 08-04-06, 07:02 AM	Augury is the domain of the gods too. And please, don't start the 'My caster level is bigger than your caster level' thing. Edit: So casting a second level spell can somehow influence a bloody artifact, in your world THE domain of the gods, forcing it to give bad results? Don't you think that would be harder to do than merely having the spell look what card's next? What is it with 'spells can not do things more powerful than X, except when I feel like screwing the players with a greatclub' ? I see that a lot, especially with wish.
OrbitalB 08-04-06, 07:10 AM	Augury is the domain of the gods too. Actually, Augury is the domain of the divine spellcaster. And that devine spellcaster, regardless of level, could never make an Artifact. Edit: So casting a second level spell can somehow influence a bloody artifact, in your world THE domain of the gods, forcing it to give bad results? Don't you think that would be harder to do than merely having the spell look what card's next? There is no card that is "next".
Thiez 08-04-06, 07:29 AM	If there is no 'next' card, you could never draw one.
Minias 08-04-06, 08:09 AM	Your answer to this question will likely depend upon which side of the DM screen you sit. As a DM, I'd never allow Augury to be used in such a way! As a player, I hope my DM would let it work! IMO A 2nd level spell is not going to save you from the DoMT. Augury versus Artifact. Augury looses. Everytime. Get over it. Take your chances. Live, or die, by your decision.
Witchblade 08-04-06, 09:44 AM	As a DM, I'd say the Augury simply fails. This way, the player won't be screwed for trying something creative, but he won't be able to use the cheese. And you can say whatever you want Thiez, but letting Augury control an artifact like that is just munchkin.
OrbitalB 08-04-06, 09:59 AM	Well, Minias & Witchblade, you're a lot kinder than I am... and I'll admit, probably right also. I just have a hard time suffering munchkins. Perhaps having the deck deliver only unfavourable results is a bit much... but I'll sure hope the deck sticks it to them ;)
archerpwr 08-04-06, 10:07 AM	My DM dropped the DoMT into the hands of my eighth lvl rogue (brand new rogue the DoMT had killed off my fighter last session) and i decided to cheat the artifiact in the following way (prolly completely illigal but im a lot smarter than my dm so pulled off some cosmic consequeces and artifact power bs) drew the card that allows you to avoid any effect once (i purposely drew eight cards in one swipe so that it could be argued that certain effects could come first and override others at my decision) i use the artifacts power to avoid the consequences of all cards that would be considered hurtful to me by a majority of the party. Effect 5 good effect cards stilll in effect (got like 8 wishes outa it cuz of a lucky d4) and kept soul and equip. Lesson: DM's never give an artifact that powerful to low lvl characters with RL int scores higher than yours.
Lord Ian Stark 08-04-06, 10:35 AM	Augury Divination Level: Clr 2 Components: V, S, M, F Casting Time: 1 minute Range: Personal Target: You Duration: Instantaneous An augury can tell you whether a particular action will bring good or bad results for you in the immediate future. The base chance for receiving a meaningful reply is 70% + 1% per caster level, to a maximum of 90%; this roll is made secretly. A question may be so straightforward that a successful result is automatic, or so vague as to have no chance of success. If the augury succeeds, you get one of four results: Weal (if the action will probably bring good results). Woe (for bad results). Weal and woe (for both). Nothing (for actions that don’t have especially good or bad results). If the spell fails, you get the “nothing” result. A cleric who gets the “nothing” result has no way to tell whether it was the consequence of a failed or successful augury. The augury can see into the future only about half an hour, so anything that might happen after that does not affect the result. Thus, the result might not take into account the long-term consequences of a contemplated action. All auguries cast by the same person about the same topic use the same dice result as the first casting. As a DM if a player did this, I would roll the percentile behind the screen and say (If didn't make percentile), you feel nothing, and if he did make the percentile, tell him Weal and Woe because any card can be good and bad to a DM if he smart enough to say how. ;)
Thiez 08-04-06, 01:05 PM	"And that devine spellcaster, regardless of level, could never make an Artifact." *cough*epic*cough* Deck of Many Things is not even a major artifact. I agree you shouldn't be able to make a major artifact (would creating a second mace of st. cuthbert that was never his even make sense?) but minor artifacts are not that hard to make if you're an epic spellcaster. They're just very very expensive.
utilitarian 08-04-06, 01:42 PM	I am continually frustrated by it's absense in the SRD, but in the DMG the Deck of Many Things specifically states that no divination magic can influence or predict the outcome of drawing a card from the deck. If you use Augery you'll either get Weal and Woe or Nothing. It can't predict the outcome.
Arvagor 08-04-06, 02:21 PM	I am continually frustrated by it's absense in the SRD, but in the DMG the Deck of Many Things specifically states that no divination magic can influence or predict the outcome of drawing a card from the deck.I'm looking at my DMG right now, and I see no such entry...
tarkin 08-04-06, 02:24 PM	You have to decide how many cars you are going to draw before hand. This severly limits the usefullness of the Augury. In any event, the proper way to deal with a Deck of Many things is to get a pouch, write "Protection from M. Disjunction" on it, place the deck in the pouch, tie the pouch shut, seal it with wax, and wear it inside your armor so that no one can steal it.
Quaoar 08-04-06, 02:44 PM	In my game, the only divination effect I've ever allowed to influence the Deck of Many Things, is the ability granted by the Vizier card. Just thought I'd throw that out there. In general I wouldn't let a second level spell predict the deck, but I might consider allowing an Epic spell to do it, if someone really wanted to waste the time and xp on crafting such a spell.
Dragonteuthis 08-04-06, 02:47 PM	I'm looking at my DMG right now, and I see no such entry... Perhaps the 3.0 DMG has it. I can't find that proviso in my 3.5 DMG either, but for some reason I remember reading it somewhere.
shruggar 08-04-06, 02:51 PM	In any event, the proper way to deal with a Deck of Many things is to get a pouch, write "Protection from M. Disjunction" on it, place the deck in the pouch, tie the pouch shut, seal it with wax, and wear it inside your armor so that no one can steal it. the disjunction fails on the deck, not the rest of your items. If it succeeds, the caster may lose his casting abilities. So what you really want is to make it as prominent as possible, so nobody ever tries :)
Thiez 08-04-06, 03:02 PM	It's a DC 25 will save... by the time a wizard can cast MDJ, he's got a +10 base save, and some more from wisdom and resistance. The spellcasting-loss thing is fairly overrated.
Edymnion 08-04-06, 03:22 PM	Actually, Augury is the domain of the divine spellcaster.Except that the flavor of the spell is that they open up a conduit to their god and ask them if something will be good or bad, putting things right back into the hands of the gods.Perhaps the 3.0 DMG has it. I can't find that proviso in my 3.5 DMG either, but for some reason I remember reading it somewhere.No, its not. I have both the 3.0 and the 3.5 DMGs open in front of me right now. Nowhere does it even IMPLY that the DoMT is immune to divination magic. Nowhere in the artifact descriptions does it say they have it, nowhere in the DoMT description does it say it has it, so it does not have it. You can houserule it in, if you wish, but by default, Augury works.You have to decide how many cars you are going to draw before hand. This severly limits the usefullness of the Augury.Not really. You only have to declare how many cards you are going to draw when you actually draw them. There is nothing that says you can't cast Augury and ask "What if I draw one card?". The answer is either Weal, Woe, or Weal and Woe. As long as the spell says Weal, you cast and ask it about drawing 2 cards. Since the action and the outcome are differant, it wouldn't count as asking the same question twice. "But how does the DM know what the answer would be?" Simple, he looks at the top card on the deck. "But you could draw the same card twice, how do you do that?" The DM simply writes down what the top card is, then shuffles the cards and looks at the top card again. Repeat as needed. Trust me, to my knowledge I'm the one that originally found this trick on these boards, and I've gone over every aspect I can think of, and without the DM just stepping in and saying no, there is nothing that can stop it, within the rules, without DM houserules. And while I would normally say that a good DM would indeed say this wouldn't work, a good DM wouldn't be giving his players a Deck of Many Things in the first place. :P
OrbitalB 08-04-06, 03:52 PM	You can houserule it in, if you wish, but by default, Augury works. If you interpret it like a munchkin.
Thiez 08-04-06, 04:39 PM	You know, calling other people names is not considered to be a good argument by most people. Now, please quote us the sentence that Edymnion has interpreted in his so-called 'munchkin' way, so we can discuss these matters as adults. :P
OrbitalB 08-04-06, 04:45 PM	Yawn. I haven't the time nor interest. This is not a new discussion. I'll just qoute a very well worded reply (from a year or so ago) by Man in the Funny Hat. You are of course free to see things your own way. No house rules should be necessary for handling the DOMT and the Augury spell. The spell REQUIRES a certain amount of arbitrary interference on the part of the DM. Consider what happens if you cast it before opening a dungeon door - would it be good or bad? Weal/woe? The DM has to look at what's behind the door, what the consequences could be -OR- what they MIGHT be if the door is opened, if the results could be mixed, or if there is even any effect at all. If the door simply leads to an empty room the result of opening the door is "Nothing". Neither a good/weal result or a bad/woe result. This is possible with the deck - that nothing really positive or negative will result as the effects can actually cancel each other out such as lose 10,000xp and then gain 10,000xp. You could draw from the deck and get the card that causes you to lose all magic items but not have any magic items to lose in the first place. You could draw and get a really bad result but then use the "avoid a situation once" result from a previous draw to invalidate the bad result. The Augury spell, in addition to having a "failure" chance outright, can't exceed what the DM himself knows will, or could happen. Its description states that a question could be so vague that the DM can decide that the spell has no chance of success. The DM is NOT required to PREDETERMINE all possibilities in order to make the spell work. In essence, it is an in-game means of meta-gaming for the player. It allows the player, through his character, to effectively ask the DM, "Is this really a good idea or am I just asking to get whacked?" It's a request for a free clue. The DM is thus up to his eyeballs in providing an arbitrary decision regarding the response for this spell. So, if the DM simply cannot make a reasonable guess as to whether a given action will be good/bad/both/neither he is within rights - according to the very description of the spell - to say that it simply fails. If the action being proposed by a character actually has a RANDOMLY determined result, and in particular if the outcome will hinge on ADDITIONAL choices made by the player and ADDITIONAL randomly determined results there simply is no possible way for the DM to even BEGIN to make an accurate guess at the ultimate outcome and whether the character will consider it good or bad. Now, with the DOMT you're dealing with an ARTIFACT. Something that the DMG plainly indicates should not just be thrown into a campaign without due consideration. In other words, the very presence of the DOMT in a campaign is an arbitrary DM decision. Add to that the fact that its very function in game terms is random [indeed, nothing will ever happen until the character FIRST states that he will draw cards - and how many cards - and then the results are effectively unavoidable as well as upredictable (or so I would think would be obvious). Add to that the fact that its inherent design and intent in campaign-design terms is random results that are generally extreme. Add to that the fact that the Augury spell cannot take into consideration the long-term results of intended actions. Add to that the fact that the Augury spell will give the same results every time when it is the same person asking about the same topic - in other words, you can't use the spell to determine if drawing ONE card would be good but drawing TWO cards might be bad. Using the Divination spell instead of Augury is no better, and in fact states, "In all cases, the DM controls what information you receive. If your party doesn't act on the information, the conditions may change so that the information is no longer useful." This certainly would apply to the use of the DOMT because it requires random determination of results only AFTER the character declares it WILL be used and precisely how many cards will be drawn - and then it doesn't even matter if the character tries to NOT draw additional cards that he said he would because the cards will pop out of the deck on their own and the results applied to the character. Though it doesn't say so in the DOMT description it is clear that divination magic just isn't useful, except perhaps in a general sense to inform the PC's that the outcome IS random - and therefore BY DEFINITION unable to be predetermined by divination spells. We're talking about a mere 2nd level spell being used to avoid the inherent dangers DESIGNED AND INTENDED for a minor ARTIFACT. It doesn't require an official, definitive answer - it requires a sensible DM. IMO.
starfire311 08-04-06, 04:59 PM	a good DM wouldn't be giving his players a Deck of Many Things in the first place. :P THis is the key point of Edy's post and he is absolutly correct.
Dragonteuthis 08-04-06, 05:20 PM	THis is the key point of Edy's post and he is absolutly correct. No, he's not. I've handed out a Deck of Many Things before, and a DM I know has handed out several (over various campaigns). The general consensus amongst our players is that we are very, very good DMs. But by his holier-than-thou attitude, I'm automatically a bad DM. Yikes. Edy, thanks for clarifying that with the 3.0 DMG. I haven't owned one in well over a year. Odd, though, because I coulda sworn I remember reading that somewhere... Edit: Found it. Olidammara's dice in the Epic Level Handbook. There is no method (mundane or magical) to predict or influence the result of a roll of Olidammara's dice. Even powerful divination magic can't predict the outcome of a roll before it is made. I must have simply transposed that to any random chance involving an artifact in general. Oopsie :P.
Archtyrant Terevoth 08-04-06, 05:56 PM	If there is no 'next' card, you could never draw one. Heh, well easy way to handle that. The DM can just not use an actual deck of cards but instead roll a dice to determine what card the PCs draw. There is no "next" card, just like there is no "next" roll of the d20. It's a random game element that can't be predicted. Just like you can't ask augury to tell you "will I succeed on my next attack roll?"
INeedNoSalt 08-04-06, 05:59 PM	Just like you can't ask augury to tell you "will I succeed on my next attack roll?" It's worth noting that my DM was arguing that I could, indeed, ask Augury if I would succeed on my next attack roll.
nameless_one_86 08-04-06, 06:14 PM	Well... here's how I'd solve it. I have a deck of many things (in the form of normal card deck) I'd have player pull secretly, I'd check results and make augury roll. Then tell him good or bad. If I realy hate that player, I'd say that 'future is uncertan' I have that semi-house rule. Around great divinators future can be uncertan and hard to see, for them seing it can influence it and that creates ripples in probability matrix... >.> <.< Yeah, I study Computer Science ;)
ank 08-04-06, 06:32 PM	ok, Augury will tell the spellcaster what the outcome of a given action will be like either good (weal) or bad (woe). Until a player decides how many cards he or she wishes to draw the augury cannot gaurentee the outcome (your diety will know the result of the cards in the order drawn for example the effects of the first, second, third, and fourth card drawn, etc.) because the outcome of the first 3 cards could be really good, but if you draw the 4rth card you will be imprisoned. Thus, if you don't state the number of cards you wish to draw then you recieve the weal and woe result or a nothing result. Now, if they state the cards they wish to draw from the deck they must immediately draw from the deck or it will start flipping cards out on its own as described in its description. At this point their choice cannot be changed and the deck will activate anyway, so augury will only tell you how screwed or lucky you are a few seconds before it happens. Now go ahead, tell me im wrong
Thiez 08-04-06, 06:47 PM	Alright. "The character with a deck of many things who wishes to draw a card must announce how many cards she will draw before she begins. Cards must be drawn within 1 hour of each other, and a character can never again draw from this deck any more cards than she has announced. If the character does not willingly draw her allotted number (or if she is somehow prevented from doing so), the cards flip out of the deck on their own." You must announce how many cards you draw BEFORE you begin [drawing]. That is, if you state you're going to draw X cards, but you never start drawing, you're safe. And saying: 'What happens when I draw 2 cards from the deck?' is NOT the same as stating 'I will draw 2 cards from the deck.', just like saying 'What happens when I jump off this building' will not kill you.
utilitarian 08-04-06, 06:48 PM	Damn it, I don't know where I read it but I know I've read that the Deck of Many Things is immune to divination. Maybe it's a second ed bit kicking around in my brain but it's an artifact and come hell or high water that's how it works in my campaigns -_-
Goblinchaser 08-04-06, 07:01 PM	Alright. "The character with a deck of many things who wishes to draw a card must announce how many cards she will draw before she begins. Cards must be drawn within 1 hour of each other, and a character can never again draw from this deck any more cards than she has announced. If the character does not willingly draw her allotted number (or if she is somehow prevented from doing so), the cards flip out of the deck on their own." Agreed, but look to the augury spell... What if I draw two cards would not be answered... simply because the question is not definitive enough.... simply due to the randomness of which two cards will be drawn... I would allow the augury if the character would ask What happens if I draw this card.... But considering I would also rule that due to the Chaos of the Deck, it auto shuffles itself routinely making a thurough divination impossible.. Ie if you get a Good result better take it when you can... Lastly, pervert the augury... Simply it is easy to assume that a character can get a weal and woe with if his question is what if I draw one card.. Two fold... one the question is to general.... Lastly there are cards that can offer to draw additional cards.. and while the first may be bad, the second could allow you to come out ahead... OR Vice Versa... Just My two Cents... If you think this is an issue.. try a wild mage and any item that produces a random result... :P
Alric 08-04-06, 07:29 PM	If the person drew only one card it should work. Doesn't really matter how chessy it is, it would work. Now if they took more than one then it would probably be to vague. As a DM this is how you stop it. When they ask just say woe, without even looking at the card. Then when they draw, a group of wizards can appear saying they were drawn by the magic and the woe was warning them not to use the deck in that area heh.
tiercel 08-04-06, 11:18 PM	In any event, the proper way to deal with a Deck of Many things is to get a pouch, write "Protection from M. Disjunction" on it, place the deck in the pouch, tie the pouch shut, seal it with wax, and wear it inside your armor so that no one can steal it....except that the sealed pouch presumably blocks line of effect to the center of the disjunction. Sadly, you probably need at least part of the DoMT exposed so that it can be affected by any disjunction you get caught in. ---------- The OP mentioned this, but if your player is going to metagame by insisting (OOC) that "nowhere does it specifically say that the DoMT is immune to divinations," as a DM you could return fire in kind by responding "nowhere in its description does it specifically say that the DoMT is shuffled or in any way randomized." In general it's not wise to try and press a DM on a literal interpretation of the rules, especially when it could easily be seen as a maneuver with a particularly high Cheese Factor. Finally, I have to agree that in general having a DoMT in your game is not a Good Thing unless you are having a one-shot game or an "end of the campaign" moment anyway. At higher levels the effects can be mitigated somewhat for at least some of the cards, but the way luck runs (assuming no Cheese Factor on the part of the players and no Malicious Factor on the part of the DM) at least one PC will get raked over the coals pretty badly and at least one PC will come out obscenely well compared to the rest of the party. If you haven't houseruled the DoMT you have to be ready to run damage control for your game; some of the cards won't do anything you can't handle, but if one guy draws Talons and then The Void and another draws Sun and Moon your game is going to be kinda out of whack.
INeedNoSalt 08-05-06, 01:27 AM	The OP mentioned this, but if your player is going to metagame by insisting (OOC) that "nowhere does it specifically say that the DoMT is immune to divinations," as a DM you could return fire in kind by responding "nowhere in its description does it specifically say that the DoMT is shuffled or in any way randomized." In general it's not wise to try and press a DM on a literal interpretation of the rules, especially when it could easily be seen as a maneuver with a particularly high Cheese Factor. You got it backwards. It was the DM and other players giving me crap for refusing to use Augury in such a way (and do something that's completely against the intent and flavor of the both the spell and artifact, in my eyes) that prompted the thread. I'm the only cleric in the party, see. The DM was pressuring the player to use cheese, not the other way around.
Atirakis 08-05-06, 02:08 AM	You are right, he is wrong and I would also have to agree with the statement you made about he is a fool for giving you the deck to begin with. For the record you shouldnt be able to ask augury if your next attack roll will hit or miss because their is no such thing as an attack roll in the game itself. You the player know about attack rolls and armor class the character just knows that they are swinging their weapon.
ElIsRa 08-05-06, 02:44 PM	You got it backwards. It was the DM and other players giving me crap for refusing to use Augury in such a way (and do something that's completely against the intent and flavor of the both the spell and artifact, in my eyes) that prompted the thread. I'm the only cleric in the party, see. The DM was pressuring the player to use cheese, not the other way around. I would go a-scouting for a new RP group if I were you. OR munchkin like all heck, because your DM actually wants his players to cheese it up.
Salla 08-05-06, 10:26 PM	I, personally, think the Augury trick works perfectly. The Deck is a 'minor' artifact, which only means that while created my mortals, the method of its creation is lost to antiquity. I, personally, will never use the Deck of Many Things because I think it sucks that you can wind up getting so completely and utterly hosed by taking one completely random chance. Multiple die rolls in a fight, yes. Draw one card and get your soul sucked out? Mmmmno. At least there's actually a save in 'save or die'. I suppose it depends on the game. If I'm running a kind of light-hearted, beer'n'pretzels, just goofin' around, hackin' and slashin' kind of game, then perhaps I might throw one in. If I'm running an extended campaign where I'm keeping with plots and need some sense of character continuity ... no. (On the other hand, does anybody else remember the 2nd Edition Wild Mage? 50% chance to be able to PICK THE CARD HE WANTED out of the darn thing.)
tiercel 08-06-06, 05:54 AM	The DM was pressuring the player to use cheese, not the other way around.:OMG! Uhhh. Yikes. My sympathies... that's just baffling to me. I mean, geez, if he wanted you to cheese that hard, why not just hand you a DoMT with the bad cards taken out *shivers* I stand by my earlier statement in a *general* sense -- but in your case, it sounds like there is no disagreement, just I don't understand why your DM would be that way. I second the motion to seek another group if possible. Oy vey.
Lady Maedhros 08-06-06, 08:03 AM	I don't get the hating on the DM. The Augury trick works by RAW. Not only that, but if I were fool enough to actually introduce the DoMT into my game, I would encourage the players to use it. Because it's much, much easier to balance a game where everybody gets a power-up or two than it is to balance a game where some people get a massive power-up and some people get completely and utterly hosed.
Incognito2me 08-06-06, 10:01 AM	Ironically, i'd allow foresight to work with the deck of many things. Just throwing that out there.