Post/Author/DateTime	Post
EricV 02-07-07, 10:30 PM	Do people who have played with these spells find them overpowered at all? They seem to be... Eric
RavenDrake 02-07-07, 11:56 PM	They are 7th and 8th level spells, respectivly... It requries a ranged touch attack, and is a ray, which means something as simple as good Touch AC or Ray protection spells can foil them. Also, considering their effect, they provide diminishing returns. While a spell like Fireball always provides (comparatively) consistant damage, these spells are weaker every time you cast them due to the manner in which they function (halving the current HP total), though they do make great spells to lead off combat with. I say they're strong spells, but not overly so. It's certainly got a certain style factor going for it.
Yokomohoyo 02-08-07, 01:19 AM	Actualy isn't Avascular Mass a web like spell that must be ancored to 2 diffrent points?
Derren S. 02-08-07, 04:08 AM	Everything which does %HP damage is overpowered.
RavenDrake 02-08-07, 12:04 PM	Actualy isn't Avascular Mass a web like spell that must be ancored to 2 diffrent points? Sort of. It has the same basic attack as Avasculate(rat attack for 1/2 HP in damage to target) but it makes that blood fly out and create an entangling web that entraps those around the target Everything which does %HP damage is overpowered. Nice to see you're approaching this with an open mind and really considering the implications and qualities of the spells. :P
Vedic Cold 02-08-07, 12:06 PM	Everything which does %HP damage is overpowered. Always amusing to see a rank generalization based on personal opinion stated as if it were indisputable fact. :rolleyes: Anyway, yes, they're very strong for their levels. Like most spells, though, there are considerable subsets of creatures who are immune to it, so while it's very powerful against creatures susceptible to it, there will be times when it's useless. That's an important balancing factor when there are other spell choices at those levels that do considerable harm to any creature.
Lord_Tirian 02-08-07, 04:15 PM	Everything which does %HP damage is overpowered. Hmm... discussable. It depends on the exact implementation. 1) It could (on high levels) be the "correct" way of dealing damage, because hp scale faster than HD (due to Con increases), which often scales with or a tad faster than CR, but the normal damage spells in the books scale only with level, meaning that adversaries gain more hp, than mages can dish out - this is also the reason why higher-level magic is much more dependant on save-or-die, save-or-suck and battlefield control. Percentual damage is just a way to make damage a viable option. 2) You could argue that a save-or-die spell is 100% damage spell. EDIT: I'm not talking specifically 'bout the avasculate spells, I'm talking 'bout the %HP spells in general, just as the quote does it - to avoid confusion.
V8122 02-08-07, 04:33 PM	er... It says 50% damage in the little "mini-description" but it kills in the full description...
Dragonan 02-08-07, 04:46 PM	The wizard in the group I'm running discovered it some weeks back and started using it until he came upon a dragon and used it on that. The big problem with it, is the large damage and that creates alot aggro in my book, so the wizard found him self rolling a new character 2 rounds later! The problem with the spell is that it don't kill the target just deals a lot of damage and that is something you have to take in to account before using the spell. The first two times he used it he waited until half the battle was done and each cast still did around 100-150 hp of damage but since the monsters had tanken a lot of damage already they didn't target the wizard since the still thought that the other players was more importen to take care of first. It is a nice starter since it will deal a seriouse amount of damage to very high level monsters, but think of the aggro, that will make the wizard think twice about using it to often!
Igairsx 02-08-07, 05:52 PM	well, the spell is an evil spell so one needs to have that alignment to use it. So, if you like to play evil characters, have fun. If not, sorry....:(
Alienfreak 02-08-07, 05:53 PM	Anything able of complex thinking is considering a character besides the spellcaster as the greatest thread? Wow. Your wizard has to suck :) And 50% HP Damage is overpowered. Consider using that one against a 1500 HP Epic Monster ... and its still only a 7th level spell! well, the spell is an evil spell so one needs to have that alignment to use it. So, if you like to play evil characters, have fun. If not, sorry.... So wrong...
Igairsx 02-08-07, 06:06 PM	so, you're saying that a good cleric can use the "clutch of orcus" spell...sorry! You need to be evil to use that!
Alienfreak 02-08-07, 06:18 PM	I bet you are going to tell me how a evil cleric gets access to a soc/wiz 7 spell in the first place ...
Neutronium_Dragon 02-08-07, 06:23 PM	It's listed for the Deathbound domain, which means that some clerics might have access to it. They would need to be non-good in order to use it, though they wouldn't necessarily have to be evil, since neutral also works. Sorc/Wiz casters don't have alignment limitations, and it's also on their list, so they can use it freely.
StarFire13 02-08-07, 06:26 PM	so, you're saying that a good cleric can use the "clutch of orcus" spell...sorry! You need to be evil to use that! And yet Avasculate and Avascular Mass are used by Wizard's and Sorcerer's who aren't bound by the alignment of a spell to determine whether they can cast it. (I don't know about Deathbound, so I didn't comment on them...):mage: As for the %dmg vs a Epic Creature comment... Firstly, you'll be within "Close Range." When you factor that in with the "Agro Meter" idea...yeah most Epic monsters of a comparable CR to the party will tear up an Epic Caster if they decide to go 1 on 1 and not spread the damage around on the party. (At least the ones I've looked at...)
Alienfreak 02-08-07, 06:41 PM	Justifying a overpowered spell with that the creature will try to kill you afterwards is not really a good justification for an overpowered spell ;)
StarFire13 02-08-07, 07:04 PM	Justifying a overpowered spell with that the creature will try to kill you afterwards is not really a good justification for an overpowered spell ;) True, true. I suppose I would have to take a more in depth look at some of the Epic spells to compare them... I think, imho, that these spells while powerful are not overly powerful. Below are 4 CR 13 monsters and the estimated damage that would be done to each of them. Beholder ~46 damage Storm Giant ~99 damage Hydra (12 headed pyro- or cryo-) ~65 damage Death Slaad ~71 damage These numbers, in most cases get out shown by meta-magic'd lower level spells like Scorching Ray etc... When you compare this spell to a "Epic Level 1500hp monster," yeah 750 hp sounds like a lot... However the rest of the group still has to do 750 hp worth of damage before the monster uses it's other (unmentioned) abilities to slay the party, summon in more of itself, teleport away and regenerate, or any other myriad of responses. I agree with another poster above...%dmg is the only way for a spell to ramp up sufficently to do damage to epic level monsters. Else you will just see all the 8th and lower level spells used for buffs. Lastly, if the major concern about this spell is the meta-gaming concept of, "OMG it does 750 dmg in a shot to an Epic Monster..." Lets take a step back and consider what % of the D&D population is playing Epic Level games that last for any reasonable length of time... For those few people out there that think this spell is too strong for their epic level games, house rule it... As it stands, it looks pretty balanced to me when compared with "Save or Die" spells of similar level...or lower level meta-magic'd damage spells.
Alienfreak 02-08-07, 07:22 PM	Thats why %HP dmg suxx ... But you flamed as it was stated prior to this one. Get fixed dmg values and it will be good for the level it is but not over when used later.
Vedic Cold 02-08-07, 08:28 PM	Thats why %HP dmg suxx ... But you flamed as it was stated prior to this one. Get fixed dmg values and it will be good for the level it is but not over when used later. Yes, because heaven forbid that a spellcaster's high-level, top-tier spells continue to be relevant and useful later in his career. :rolleyes: It's worth noting that at the high levels of play, HP become increasingly irrelevant. Big monsters tend to have so many HP that PCs rarely spend time trying to kill their foes through sheer HP damage, instead opting for save-or-die spells or spells that so drastically hinder their foes as to make them no longer a threat. Spells that do %HP will NEVER end an encounter faster or more decisively than a successful save-or-die spell.