Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Yabanjin 08-30-05, 09:42 PM	Why isn't every forest with elven druids (or human or dwarf or orc druids etc...) just chock FULL of awakened flora and fauna? I mean a single elf druid, living as long as they tend to, could awaken something every couple of days for a long, long time. This of course assumes this elf is acting alone. What about a whole clan of long lived druid types? What about 100's of groups of druids all acting separately - but according to their beliefs (which tend to be similar) - The woods would be alive with sound of moving trees and chatting animals! Having said that, I know that this is a bit much - there are Natural Order issues I suppose. And if taken to the extreme, as in the above example - almost every class/race/thing would influence the world in a dominating way... But this seems to be quite powerful and somewhat overlooked. I'm not saying it's unbalanced (read my sig), but I'm saying there's something here that I think needs a bit of clarification. Any ideas? What's it like in your campaign world? Any druid-free games?
Moon-Lancer 08-30-05, 09:44 PM	sounds like a fun place to start an adventure if you ask me. :w00t:
CryoSilver 08-30-05, 09:54 PM	Maybe the 250 XP cost is a deterrent?
Yabanjin 08-30-05, 10:15 PM	Maybe the 250 XP cost is a deterrent? Excellent point - and I agree its a deterrent, however characters at that level can afford it. And if XP are gained in more ways than by simply killing things - that 250 price isn't really very high at all... Along those lines how do magic-scroll/potion makers make a living? Let alone those crafty folks that make other magic items for sale.... Do they get special dispensations (prestige classes, special feats? I don't know) because it's their profession? If so, then why not the Awakener prestige class? (if it exists - sorry - druids aren't my bag baby!)
Bloodtide_the_Red 08-30-05, 11:14 PM	Why isn't every forest with elven druids just chock FULL of awakened flora and fauna? Easy. Animals don't live all that long. A great many animals don't make it too much past 20 years old, if that. And on top of that, life out in the wild is tough. Even an awakened rabbit can break a leg, or an awakened bird break a wing. And, of course, that natural way of things is that animals eat other animals. An awakened deer can be killed by a pack of normal wolves. Even if they are awakened, they still need to eat. So an awakened fox will still gobble up rabbits, even awakened ones. Then toss monsters in to the mix. First you get the big ones, like dragons, that gobble up the local animals, even the awakened ones. Then there are the medium ones, like say griffons and the small ones, like say a shocker lizard. Even the 'good' monsters, such as Fey kill animals, as pixies would kill an invading badger, for example. And that finaly brings you to man, and other such humanoids. Hungry folk will eat an awakened pig. Sure an awakened animal might be able to stay one step ahead of the hunters, at least for a while. Though not that say humans, who have awakened-like stats, still find ways to get themselfs killed in the wild. And in fact the animals new found abilites may hurt the animal more then help. A awakened toad may not be all that happy with it's low rug on the food chain. And an awakened bison finds it hard to fit in with the other normal bison in his herd and simply stand around all day. Even if you say that awakened animals wouls have awakened young, you'd still keep the overall population of awakened animals down to just a handful at any one given time. BT
ragingmaro 08-30-05, 11:21 PM	In addition some Druids might not want to awaken large numbers of animals. They might consider that awakening them is disturbing natural balance and making some animals smarter than others would screw things up. BUt that's just my take on it. It seems that a forest full of sentient animals would be an interesting adventure.
smrtgmp 08-30-05, 11:33 PM	I would play an awakened butterfly psion if it wasnt for the life span of a week or so. No one every suspects the butterfly... :plotting: :evillaugh
Yabanjin 08-31-05, 08:41 AM	Thanks for the comments. I wasn't looking to start a eco-logical-war - and I do disagree with some of the posts above, but really do I appreciate the opinions posted - Thanks.
tarkin 08-31-05, 10:34 AM	Trees have VERY long life spans. Awaken the trees, not the animals. And many birds live 90, 100 + years (parrots are often passsed down for three or four generations)
NinjaPenguin 08-31-05, 01:25 PM	Awaken is an Instantaneous Transmutation, right? I would think that the modification, which took life energy (XP) to create would breed true... at LEAST if both the animals mating were Awakened... I like the idea of an Awakened Forest... What would the nearby villiage think of it? Would there BE a nearby villiage? Of course, just because animals and plants awaken to 'human-like sentience' doesn't mean they think at all like humanoids. They are still Animals after all, and the Circle of Life is still unbroken. Predators may become slavers over the less powerful Prey species, if they are viscious enough, or were created by an Evil druid. A heroic awakened Rabbit joins forces with a few of his bretheren to free his people from the domineering Fox Empire... Oh yeah, we have plotlines here ;)
Yabanjin 09-01-05, 11:11 AM	Ah... I can see it now..... NEWS FLASH: Parrots Fly Amuck in Jungle, Yuan-Ti Packing Up. Reports from all over the Swampy Jungle Reaches are now indicating that an untold number of awakened parrots have been wreaking havoc for the Yuan-Ti Empire for over 50 years. Apparently all of the major slitherways and trade routes have been rendered unslitherable. The Empire is in Ruins. Though the Great Legless Emperor has said nothing, an official spokesnake was quoted as saying, "Thhhiiiisss realllly sssssuckssss." An anonymous source has indicated that the Imperial Snakey Seers have identified an elf, one, Wiley E. Munchingus, PhD.DM (Druidicus Majorus) as the main instigator, in what is being termed, Cracker-gate. Apparently the seers were able to divine that he had been bitten by a snake when he was young and in fact, had never really got over it. He has spent 400 years studying the ways of the druids to exact his revenge upon all of snakedom. More news as it develops. ...... Thanks again all, these are good ideas.
tarkin 09-01-05, 11:26 AM	Also note, Awaken, it's not just for druids anymore. Awaken costs 250 xp to cast. If a Wizards uses Limited Wish to duplicate an Awaken spell, he pays 300 xp instead of 250 xp. The extra 50 xp is simply not much of a consideration. Wizards can pretty much cast Awaken almost as easily as a Druid.
Rhadamanthus 09-01-05, 12:41 PM	I'd imagine that awakened animals would get on peoples nerves. Same goes for awakened trees. I mean anyone that passes by would hear complaints and cat-calls about ecological devastation and conservation and things like that. People wouldn't go into that forest anymore. I think there's a reason that plants and animals can't talk; otherwise the world would be really screwy. I once heard some Native American tale about how people started killing and eating plants and animals, so they decided to stop speaking to humanity. Huh. I can just see an awakened tree now... "Save the rain forest! Or I cut you!"
Dark Stryke 09-01-05, 01:14 PM	About that awakened Butterfly Psion... If you volunteered to be someone's familiar, your life would be extended to their lifespan. So, just convince someone to play a wizard or sorcerer, then you can be their awakened butterfly Psion familiar. Also, if you let yourself advance a few age categories (doesn't take long) before you become the familiar, then you get bonuses to mental scores, yay! Who cares about losing Str, Dex, and con? You're a freakin butterfly! I'd houserule that just for the sheer awesomeness. I mean, next campaign my group starts up, One player wants to play a psion Brain-In-A-Jar (Libris Mortis) and another wants to play an awakened Monkey Rogue that carries him around. It's assumed hilarity will ensue.
Iver Gearsham 09-01-05, 02:21 PM	Any act of creation carrys a responsibility that absolutly includes a new life. Maybe they just want to limit it to what they can care for?
Andrew 09-01-05, 03:51 PM	In my campaign setting, something like this happened - in the history of the setting, someone decided to Awaken a lot of enormous trees to help fight an all-consuming war. Then the trees started gaining Druid and Sorcerer levels, and doing the same thing to themselves, especially to the forest's Dryad trees. It's a little dangerous to go too far from the cities now, and at least one subsequent war has been waged to try to wipe them out (unsuccessfully).
tarkin 09-01-05, 03:54 PM	I would rule that Awakening a Dryad's tree causes the dryad to merge with the Awakened tree.
smrtgmp 09-01-05, 06:41 PM	About that awakened Butterfly Psion... If you volunteered to be someone's familiar, your life would be extended to their lifespan. So, just convince someone to play a wizard or sorcerer, then you can be their awakened butterfly Psion familiar. Also, if you let yourself advance a few age categories (doesn't take long) before you become the familiar, then you get bonuses to mental scores, yay! Who cares about losing Str, Dex, and con? You're a freakin butterfly! I'd houserule that just for the sheer awesomeness. I mean, next campaign my group starts up, One player wants to play a psion Brain-In-A-Jar (Libris Mortis) and another wants to play an awakened Monkey Rogue that carries him around. It's assumed hilarity will ensue.If a DM would let me be a psion and someones familiar, I would do it. But as far as I know familiars cant have class levels, so it would require houserules to make it work. It would be fun, though. Hmmm...I suppose I could always be an undead butterfly psion. Your upcoming campaign sounds like a hoot. I always thought it would be fun to play a psicrystal psion as well. Maybe you're just a fragment of a once great psion who was blown to bits, but not before he imprinted some of himself into his psicrystal. When the campaign starts it would have no idea how it came into being, but as it progressed in levels it would uncover more and more of the memories from its past life (which would probably be rather disconcerting until it realized what was happening) and eventually discover how it died and made the transition.
Yabanjin 09-01-05, 10:49 PM	The origin of this post came from a thread about how unbalanced clerics are... (I can't seem to find it now, but its out there). The consensus from that post seemed to be that ultimately druids are the #1 kickin' choice for overall performance - or munchkinism - or whatever - despite that consensus, I don't care - I still don't really like the class. However: Even though I don't utilitze druids much in my games - they are always 'just kinda there' but they don't affect much - so after reading the aforementioned thread, I sat down and really had a look at that class. I made 2 characters (ulitmately npcs) and I have to say: wow. These (started low then scaled them up to 12th and 20th level) characters are quite impressive - even with only minimal equipment. Entire (Montana-sized) regions would theirs with much less hassle than it would be for anyone that had to deal with humanoids as subjects.... And the forests would be teeming with awakened flora and fauna - all from a relatively small commune of druids that decided it would help them protect their land - a small imbalance in the interest of perserving Nature. And no one would go there. No monsters. No humans. No dragons. No undead. No one. It would be too much work. The plants and animals would take care of the intrusions that they could take care of and the Druids would handle everything else. Since there would be no constant build up of gold, spice or other forms of 'civilized' treasure, it would be unlikely that it would interest anyone. Hence the OP on this thread. I would also rule that Awaken female animal + awakened male animal results in awakened offspring. There's GOT to be a spell that could extend the lifespan of a butterfly. Anyone got any ideas? Lets do this: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=7137496#post7137496 :)
Iver Gearsham 09-02-05, 03:38 AM	The origin of this post came from a thread about how unbalanced clerics are... (I can't seem to find it now, but its out there). The consensus from that post seemed to be that ultimately druids are the #1 kickin' choice for overall performance - or munchkinism - or whatever - despite that consensus, I don't care - I still don't really like the class. However: Even though I don't utilitze druids much in my games - they are always 'just kinda there' but they don't affect much - so after reading the aforementioned thread, I sat down and really had a look at that class. I made 2 characters (ulitmately npcs) and I have to say: wow. These (started low then scaled them up to 12th and 20th level) characters are quite impressive - even with only minimal equipment. Entire (Montana-sized) regions would theirs with much less hassle than it would be for anyone that had to deal with humanoids as subjects.... And the forests would be teeming with awakened flora and fauna - all from a relatively small commune of druids that decided it would help them protect their land - a small imbalance in the interest of perserving Nature. And no one would go there. No monsters. No humans. No dragons. No undead. No one. It would be too much work. The plants and animals would take care of the intrusions that they could take care of and the Druids would handle everything else. Since there would be no constant build up of gold, spice or other forms of 'civilized' treasure, it would be unlikely that it would interest anyone. Hence the OP on this thread. I would also rule that Awaken female animal + awakened male animal results in awakened offspring. There's GOT to be a spell that could extend the lifespan of a butterfly. Anyone got any ideas? Lets do this: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=7137496#post7137496 :) The trees themselves are treasure just ask the English in the 1700's (ship masts) is what was realy important for them the rumores of gold was just to get the suckers to move there.
Papa_duval 09-02-05, 05:45 AM	Man, i love these discussions. Why can't people see the difference between an ability to do something, and the motivation to do it. For instance, every day, if i want to, i can drive down to london. I don't though. Our own world is filled with people who are able to do things that they then choose not to do. Why should a fantasy world be any different. All these arguments rely on the individual in question being a child (where ability and desire to do something are mostly irrelevant. A child can do something, so a child does do something) As adults, we are able to make decisions and be driven by motivations more complex than purely - just because i can do something, i will. EDIT: On the flip side, i could certainly see a campaign where the party are pitted against a druid who is trying to awaken an entire forest and return the world to its original un-civilised state. He'd be the bad guy though, and would do well as an opponent for a party with its own druids and rangers.
Yabanjin 09-02-05, 10:25 AM	So which is it? Waste of time or worth a moment's consideration? I guess in the game you play, dragons don't use their breath attack to aid in their quest to hoard wealth - I mean just because they can do something doesn't mean they will do something right? Maybe they use their charisma - oh wait, just because they can... . Your argument seems to indicate that you would gain something substantial (security, wealth and/or purpose in life etc....) by driving to London everyday but don't. Why not? The hypothetical druid(s) of this scenario stand to gain quite a bit by filling the forest with thinking animals that can truly protect themselves from the masses of so-called intelligent beings that tend to be quite focused on dominating the planet. Am I wrong in thinking that druids would want to set themselves up in a virtual paradise that takes care of itself? It seems that the intent of the argument you've proposed doesn't actually match up to intent of this post. I appreciate all posts to my threads, including the ones that tell me I'm a dolt. As such, thanks for your input. I do understand what you're saying but I think you don't understand what I was trying to ask.
Papa_duval 09-02-05, 10:39 AM	So which is it? Waste of time or worth a moment's consideration? I guess in the game you play, dragons don't use their breath attack to aid in their quest to hoard wealth - I mean just because they can do something doesn't mean they will do something right? Maybe they use their charisma - oh wait, just because they can... . . Well, some do, some don't. Funny thing is, why don't all the dragons just invade Khorvaire and lay waste - they could, and they'd get another continent to play with. Why don't good aligned dragons fly into towns, lay waste and nick everything valuable. I assume in your games that dragons are capable of higher thought and having motivations beyond 'I can do this, so that stands to reason it must be a good idea Your argument seems to indicate that you would gain something substantial (security, wealth and/or purpose in life etc....) by driving to London everyday but don't. Why not? The hypothetical druid(s) of this scenario stand to gain quite a bit by filling the forest with thinking animals that can truly protect themselves from the masses of so-called intelligent beings that tend to be quite focused on dominating the planet. Am I wrong in thinking that druids would want to set themselves up in a virtual paradise that takes care of itself? . Ah, i'm sorry, i'm fairly sure it was the druids job to preserve the natural order of things, to ensure that nature remains natural. Who said anything about making a paradise? By awakening everything, your in essence totally changing the natural order of things. Very much against the essence of a druid It seems that the intent of the argument you've proposed doesn't actually match up to intent of this post. . See, what you've been asking is, assuming a druid could awaken an entire forest/world over the course of his life, and in essence make himself redundant, why wouldn't he. I've tried to tell you, but i suppose you may have missed the concept that power goes hand in hand with responsibility. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should. See, a druid might be able to do this, but he'd need to consider the consequences of changing the natural order of his environment to such an extreme degree. If you want an npc to have done this and thought it was the right thing to do, i'd say go for it, but personally i'd say the npc should have a great many druids opposed to them.
High Octane 09-02-05, 10:39 AM	Self-Awareness is a burden. http://www.sluggy.com/daily.php?date=050719 Case and point.
Keenath 09-02-05, 04:09 PM	Well, go a different direction. Why don't the druids use their l33t druid skills to turn all the animals into domesticated pets so people can happily live in the forests with them, eventually turning the forest into a happy, thriving city of trees? Because that's not what "respecting nature" is about! An awakened animal is against the nature that Druids are sworn to protect. They may create such creatures as protectors of the forest or otherwise to assist in the druidic cause. They may even like to have such animals around. That doesn't mean awakening is something they should do all the time.
Yabanjin 09-02-05, 09:36 PM	....why don't all the dragons just invade Khorvaire and lay waste - they could, and they'd get another continent to play with.... Can dragons get along with each other long enough to do that? And besides who would tend the tasty sheep and cattle whilst the dragons napped? Ah, i'm sorry, i'm fairly sure it was the druids job to preserve the natural order of things, to ensure that nature remains natural. Who said anything about making a paradise? By awakening everything, your in essence totally changing the natural order of things. Very much against the essence of a druid Please tell me more about the 'natural order of things' in a fantasy world. Where do Fey fit into a forest? Where do dryads and treants and earth elementals fit into the natural order of things? See, what you've been asking is, assuming a druid could awaken an entire forest/world over the course of his life, and in essence make himself redundant, why wouldn't he. I've tried to tell you, but i suppose you may have missed the concept that power goes hand in hand with responsibility. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should. See, a druid might be able to do this, but he'd need to consider the consequences of changing the natural order of his environment to such an extreme degree. If you want an npc to have done this and thought it was the right thing to do, i'd say go for it, but personally i'd say the npc should have a great many druids opposed to them. As you mentioned in your original post, these boards are covered with posts about characters and power use/abuse. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should. That is of course, an excellent point - however, the natural order concept is not totally applicable here. And spellcasters do use their powers routinely to change the world around them - to their benefit. We could start another thread about how Wizard X destroyed the local economy by creating a factory filled with animated objects and put all of townsfolk out of work....
Bonzai 09-03-05, 11:03 AM	Who's to say that this hasn't already happened? Elven forests in particular are associated with the trees themselves coming alive and defending the forest. Perhaps the elves long ago gave sentience to all the trees? Perhaps they sleep. They don't wake up because the elves preserve their slumber. No one harvests them in an elven wood. Sure branches fall off now and then, but it would be like a humaniod losing hair. What does a tree really need? Fertile soil and the sun in it's branches. Perhaps the awakened trees are content with just that. The elves nuture them, and in exchange, they help defend them, and themselves against human and orc encroachment. What is the nature of an awakened plant? What are it's needs and desires? Reproduction happens on it's own, and they are all A-sexual. So it's not like they are out to attract and impress a mate. Food? Dirt and sunshine are all it needs, with some occasional water. Pretty easy to come by. So there is no real competition, except perhaps for a sunny spot, and in that case, the taller tree wins. A tree may be perfectly content to stay in one spot, from sappling till it rots away, standing in one spot, observing the world. It may take something serious like a horde of orcs doing a slash and burn campaign to rouse them into action. just my 2 copper.